Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Aug 2017 03:15

DavidD wrote:
kit wrote: they are welcome to meddle in kashmir . It makes things simpler for India as well . If you didnt understand what i meant , a limited "nuke" war will rightly mean a full blown nuke war with China . No use hiding behind paki generals and cocking a "nuclear" snook at India . The Chinese eastern board will be hit along with whichever place in India is targeted.
Why would there be a nuke war?

Easy.

Since the 1980s, the Chinese have been proliferating nuclear weapons to the Pakistanis in the hope of containing India.

The Pakistanis have been using these nuclear weapons as part of a strategy of blackmail, to provide a WMD umbrella in case India mounted a conventional military response against Pakistan-sponsored jihadi terrorism.

The strategy of nuclear blackmail has proven, increasingly over the past 18 years, to be one of diminishing returns for Pakistan. India has been calling their bluff with growing contempt, beginning with Kargil and continuing, most recently, with the IA's surgical strike in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

Today the Pakistanis are so afraid of an Indian conventional response to a terrorist attack that they claim to have "developed" tactical nuclear weapons or TNWs, which they threaten to use against advancing Indian forces within Pakistani territory . Of course, these TNWs are simply more items they have acquired through Chinese proliferation.

Now there's never been any doubt that the Pakistani use of TNWs against Indian forces, even on its own soil, would bring about a full-scale nuclear riposte by India against Pakistan. That is India's stated nuclear doctrine.

What has never been explicitly stated is whether the Indian nuclear riposte against Pakistan's use of nuclear weapons would also target China, the source of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. Until now, this was an open question.

By threatening to become overtly involved in a conventional India-Pakistan conflict, the Chinese have themselves made the answer to that question obvious.

It is now in Beijing's most dear and delicate interest to ensure that Pakistan doesn't use a single TNW, even if Indian troops have sawed their country in half and liberated Baluchistan, Sindh, Kashmir, Gilgit-Baltistan and Khyber-Pakhtunkwa from Islamabad's imperialism.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2017 03:19

If China gets directly involved in Pakistan, which was the premise of the conversation, then the chance of Pakistan successfully resisting an Indian invasion by conventional means increases and the chance of a nuclear confrontation decreases, no?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Aug 2017 03:22

No. Despite China's hubris regarding its military prowess, it cannot hope to intervene in Pakistan as massively and rapidly as it would take to prevent the dissection of Pakistan by Indian forces. Particularly because we would not be invading to hold and occupy Pakistani territory in the long term... our war aims would be to completely decimate the Pakistan armed forces both militarily (as a fighting force) and politically (as a credible unifying and governing institution), and then leave the centrifugal tendencies inherent within Pakistan to accomplish the rest.

As we can see, China cannot even bring substantial forces to bear in Doka La without presenting ample warning and opportunities for Indian interdiction. To imagine that it could make a difference to resisting Indian strike corps sweeping across distant Pakistan is a pipe dream.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2017 03:32

Rudradev wrote:No. Despite China's hubris regarding its military prowess, it cannot hope to intervene in Pakistan as massively and rapidly as it would take to prevent the dissection of Pakistan by Indian forces.

As we can see, China cannot even bring substantial forces to bear in Doka La without presenting ample warning and opportunities for Indian interdiction. To imagine that it could make a difference to resisting Indian strike corps sweeping across distant Pakistan is a pipe dream.

Are we still talking about the Chinese response to Doklam? Are you suggesting that if the impasse doesn't end or even escalates, India would simultaneously launch a full on invasion of Pakistan as well?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Aug 2017 03:49

I was talking (as I believe, was kit ji) about the Chinese drawing an equivalence between India-Bhutan and China-Pakistan. It is Beijing's brilliant notion to threaten direct military intervention in an India-Pakistan conflict, with the claim that Doklam establishes some sort of precedent. I am explaining why that would be a welcome development for India, from a nuclear deterrence point of view.

If China intervenes as a co-belligerent against India (which it cannot do effectively enough to stop an Indian invasion of Pakistan), and then the Pakis use a TNW on Indian forces, I don't have to spell out what that means.

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Aug 2017 03:52

Rudradev wrote:No. Despite China's hubris regarding its military prowess, it cannot hope to intervene in Pakistan as massively and rapidly as it would take to prevent the dissection of Pakistan by Indian forces. Particularly because we would not be invading to hold and occupy Pakistani territory in the long term... our war aims would be to completely decimate the Pakistan armed forces both militarily (as a fighting force) and politically (as a credible unifying and governing institution), and then leave the centrifugal tendencies inherent within Pakistan to accomplish the rest.

As we can see, China cannot even bring substantial forces to bear in Doka La without presenting ample warning and opportunities for Indian interdiction. To imagine that it could make a difference to resisting Indian strike corps sweeping across distant Pakistan is a pipe dream.

China forgets what the paki generals can do when their bums get heated up .. its literally to save the collective a..es that they developed their "entire spectrum of nukes" . With China directly involved in a conflict , its easy for India to call Chinas bluff

. Seriously China is way behind in this game

.. I used to wonder how on earth India could legitimately get China to pay for their "iron clad" support for their "higher than mountains deeper than oceans" friend pakistan. Way to go China .. just make it easy for us .. you already did one by building the OBORe through POK.This is the last nail., thank God !

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Aug 2017 04:01

All, Please read the Indian Nuclear doctrine.
It states massive retaliation response against those who conducted the nuclear attack and their allies.
Until Agni 5, China thought it was hogwash.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Aug 2017 04:23

Would be good to start a discussion on how may TNWs it will take to wipe out the PLA from North Dharmasala and Aksai Chin. Mind u, no nuke attacks inside actual China, unless of course they were to attack inside India. IMO 3 nukes would reduce PLA to the point where Dharmic forces would do the rest using brooms and shovels. There's plenty of unpopulated space in North Dharmasala for the radiation to disperse and not threaten the population centers.
Maybe from Xinjiang as well while we are about it. The good Islamist splittists in Xinjiang will greatly appreciate the opportunity to show their admiration of their Han rulers. IIRC, the door to Xinjiang is via Aksai Chin, hain?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Aug 2017 05:53

How about any part of greater Tibet?

Parts of greater Tibet were gives off and attached to Xinjiang and Qinming.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Aug 2017 06:23

Basically, as the IndiaToday pic hinted, Hans have no business in any of these civilized parts, and they are most certainly not welcomed there. China ends at 100 deg. E. Longitude. Everything west is illegally occupied and colonized by Impeliarist Lunning Dogs of Coroniarist Commie Clooks. Any Han military found West of 100 deg. are fair game for TNWs. A coordinated judicious use of TNWs by Russia, India and US would end the lizards' arrogance. Given how much the clooks have done to propagate nuclear weapons to terrorist nations, this would be a fitting return on their investment. And hey, if they get uppity about it and move their strategic weapons, it's all over for the populated eastern region.
And its getting close: US detects unusual NoKo sub activity, nuclear missile launch indicated.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2017 06:35

shiv wrote:
Iyersan wrote: I believe now India has started the psyops today by leaking the barahoti incident.
I don't know. I have often observed that the media become active on a particular subject when that is in the news. they get reporters and Googlers to search for any news related to a topic that is hot. [..] No point making far reaching conclusions from one media report knowing that the media are only looking for eyeballs to generate interest, not inform with honesty

Replying to my own post. What were the nedia saying about Barahoti from 2007 to 2012?
http://www.oneindia.com/india/chinese-i ... icle-tweet

Chinese incursions at Uttarakhand have taken place 37 times between 2007-2012
Vicky

Chinese incursions at Uttarakhand have taken place 37 times between 2007-2012

India

Updated: Tuesday, August 1, 2017, 5:50 [IST]

New Delhi has sought to play down the latest Chinese incursion at Barahoti in Chamoli district in Uttarakhand. The incident occurred in the last week of July. A top official in Delhi when contacted about the incident said that such issues have taken past several times in the past and sorted out locally. The incident lasted for around two hours before the Chinese army personnel went back, sources said.
Chinese incursions at Uttarakhand have taken place 37 times between 2007-2012

The state administration admitted that there was an incident that took place. However since it was a matter of strategic affairs, it was left to the centre to sort it out.

The incident comes a year after the Peoples' Liberation Army were spotted on the Indian side at the same area. The Chinese army personnel had appeared out of the mist and signalled to the Indian side to go back. While the issue was sorted out, the centre had said that the mutually agreed norm was not violated.

These issues have been reported from the same area in 1958. That year a Chinese
delegation had visited India. It was decided that both countries will not send troops into this area. It was also agreed upon that only shepherds would be allowed into this area.

However, a final settlement on this dispute is still awaited.

On such incursions, the ITBP has sent reports to the home ministry. At a Chief Minister's conference it was stated that the Chinese had entered this territory at least 37 times between 2007 and 2012.

OneIndia News

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 01 Aug 2017 07:19

What are relations like up there, I wonder. Even on India-pak border there was always personal affinity and communication. Like the old story from 1965.

Indian troops were in trenches across from pakis sh1ts also in trenches. Tense standoff. Eventually, a voice came loud and clear from the Indian side:

Arre, Abdul, Kahan hain tu?

Here I am!!

Abdul stood straight up out of the trench
BAM!! No more abdul. Silence.

Imtiaz! Are Kutta! kahan hain Tu?

Are tu hai Kutte ka baccha!

Imtiaz shot up in anger, gesticulating in rage.
BAM! No more Imtiaz.
The Pakis thought about this. An hour went by.

Kishan Singh! Kutta!

Kaun bolta hain Kishan Singh ko?

Main, Asghar Khan Peshawari!

Asghar stood up ramrod-straight in pride.
BAM! No more Asghar.

But here, everyone knows that guns are not to be used. So what do they do after yelling: YOU BAD!
YOU GO HOME!! at each other for the benefit of You-Tube videos?

I hear the Chinese greatly hunger for Indian Kaja Beedis. And betel nuts. They are willing to stand up on their hindlegs and perform antics to get these.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 01 Aug 2017 08:25

Sikkim standoff by being adamant Beijing ruining its own trade infrastructure plan says Chinese military expert

The dudes are reading what I have been writing on BRF

"Unlike Southeast Asian countries, India has never succumbed to China's 'carrot and stick' strategies," Wong added. He also explained that India's location works in its favour when it comes to "China's energy lifeline and the 'Belt and Road Initiative'" and rubbing the neighbouring country the wrong way will yield no benefit to Beijing. In fact, Wong believes that China's aggressive stand will "only push it into the rival camp, which [Beijing believes] is scheming to contain China by blocking the Malacca Strait and the Indian Ocean."

It is advantageous to have China as a neighbor, if she behaves like a good one...

Shardul · Post by **Shardul** » 01 Aug 2017 08:32

Repeated incursion might have following objective from Chinese point of view. They might be testing our response time in terms of detection and subsequent countermeasures. Also it's a part of phycological warfare where the adversary is trying to project / communicate via their cronies in media " They can enter Indian territory at will and Indian govt can't stop them". So basically to descredit Govt in terms of protecting our land and people. This will keep on happening in future too. Though if few members of Chinese patrol team come down to Indian territory and then fall back. Neither we should panick nor there should be any shrill reaction as it's difficult to physically protect the long border. If leaked by GOI then " they are preparing Indians for long stand off" and ignite some anti Chinese sentiment resulting in individuals/ groups calling / implementing boycott of Chinese product ( unofficial). In future we will see lot of innitiative from individuals/ groups in this direction.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 01 Aug 2017 08:41

^^^If a certain Chinese ship disappears in the Indian Ocean every time a border incursion occurs - samjne vale ko ek ship be kafi hi

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 01 Aug 2017 09:01

I hope we are ready with detailed plan to liberate Tibet.. It seems that NK is soon going to get some zapad from US/ japnese.. This will be the time chinese would like to concentrate their best on east coast.. We can use this opportunity to settle all border disputes permenently..
Honestly speaking these temporary incursions are not going to help lizard in long run.. I am not too concerned about it.. It's repeated chinese haramigiri like protecting paki pigs/blocking us in NSG / misusing veto against us makes my blood boil.. Taming lizard is a must if we want permenent seat in security council..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 09:05

i am betting on DT going 'wild' soon and pushing the button that inflicts pain on Noko without consulting japan and soko-they will get the memo after the VLS tubes are all cleared out. it will have to be a massive strike else noko will lash back at soko border tracts. and the strike will have to be followed by a 'dare' to go nukular if noko leader wants or else depose the tyrant and hand him over for trial.

major loss of face for cheen if that happens though they will still try to salvage something by offering to go in with a 'stabilization force', occupy and pacify noko and set the stage for transition to their next chosen tyrant. infact being a clever reptile they might have gamed this as better for long term and goading Kim into escalation after escalation hoping that DT will blow his fuse ... they will earn both brownie points for cleaning up the rubble, catching any kim loyalists and a new foothold on land they will never want to leave. south korea will be eternally grateful too.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Aug 2017 09:14

Lekhraj wrote:A brief history of Chinese incursions in Barahoti:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/the- ... blunder-2/

That was a wonderful article to understand the long history of Barahoti issue.

I have noted the recent activities there, summarized below.

In June 2016, about 250 PLA troops intruded into the disputed 80 Sq. Km. area of Bara Hoti pasture lands, along with their Zhiba series of attack helicopter of the PLA for support, in eastern Uttarakhand. Speaking in the Indian Parliament, Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar said, “The India-China border is not formally demarcated. There are areas where both sides have differing perceptions of the LAC. Barahoti is one such area. There was no incursion, just transgression which has been settled. There is a well-defined mechanism to settle such transgressions”.

However, officials in the ‘know’ said that China had reconnoitered the area using Tu-153M - which has SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) - thrice before intruding. Barahoti is one of the three border posts in the 'middle sector' comprising Uttar Pradesh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand where ITBP jawans are not allowed to take their weapons as per the unilateral decision of the then government in June, 2000. In 1958, both the countries listed Barahoti, an 80-square KM sloping pasture, as a disputed area where neither side would send their troops. However, after the 1962 China-Indian war, the ITBP jawans used to patrol the area with weapons in non-combative manner under which the barrel of the gun is positioned downward. During prolonged negotiations on resolving border dispute, the Indian side had unilaterally agreed in June, 2000, that ITBP troops would not be carrying arms to the three posts -- Barahoti, Kauril and Shipki in Himachal Pradesh. The ITBP men do patrolling in civil dress and the pasture attracts Indian shepherds from the border villages tending their sheep.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 09:19

what is not clear is do the chinese come unarmed when they visit this area ?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Aug 2017 09:22

In anger, China always loses the plot. It happened in North Vietnam too. The hectoring that Gen. Le Duc Tho received from haughty Chinese ministers had just the opposite effect. Eventually, China was left clueless.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Aug 2017 09:24

Singha wrote:what is not clear is do the chinese come unarmed when they visit this area ?

If they came in Zhiba attack helicopters last year, we have to assume they were armed.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 01 Aug 2017 09:33

SSridhar wrote:
Singha wrote:what is not clear is do the chinese come unarmed when they visit this area ?
If they came in Zhiba attack helicopters last year, we have to assume they were armed.

I wish when they try to land zhiba helicopter next time a dozen LCH/ Rudras welcome them..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 09:45

step1 - DT goes ballistic, empties his VLS magazines at Noko

step2 - Kim goes ballistic and starts viciously shelling Soko and making prep to fire his ballistic missile. soko and japan ready for the worst.

step3 (surprise!) - china which mysteriously knows all noko wmd and c3i locations uses DF21D and J20 in pin point strikes to remove these threats, kills Kim and his coterie in some bunker and PLA marches in strength across the border, followed by 1000s of trucks bearing food aid and reconstruction corps. noko army surrenders quickly.

step4 - a new chakravartin is anointed in pyong yang , democratically selected by Peking.

step5 - DT wings his way to peking to pay homage at the great hall of the dlagon lord for saving his gambit and making him look taller and stronger. offers to let cheen manage the rebuilding of noko with due help from Seoul

step6 - seoul and tokyo next pay homage for saving their countries from ruin and nuclear attack. cheen basks in worldwide adulation for killing this huge threat to world peace. only TSP in deep mourning for losing its n-test site.

step7 - Xi turns his considerable wrath on the sole holdout Yindia next

Kim is but a stepping stone which Cheen will use to become Shogun of east asia. a means to an end, not the end. I think he realizes this and has plans to go feral at the due time. while kim and bashar assad may not look like much vs their ruthless and cunning fathers, they have the same blood and dna and are a lot more cunning than they project.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2017 09:46

Singha wrote:what is not clear is do the chinese come unarmed when they visit this area ?

I think they were armed in one July 2017 incident. Not sure

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2017 09:56

DrRatnadip wrote:I hope we are ready with detailed plan to liberate Tibet.. It seems that NK is soon going to get some zapad from US/ japnese.. This will be the time chinese would like to concentrate their best on east coast.. We can use this opportunity to settle all border disputes permenently..
Honestly speaking these temporary incursions are not going to help lizard in long run.. I am not too concerned about it.. It's repeated chinese haramigiri like protecting paki pigs/blocking us in NSG / misusing veto against us makes my blood boil.. Taming lizard is a must if we want permenent seat in security council..

I worry about nations who try to "liberate" other nations. Liberty is an American masturbatory term that is overused and undefined. I would like to recall how many nations have been successfully liberated in the past 75 years. Bangladesh was liberated. I think France and Poland were liberated. The Philippines was "liiberated" in a sense. Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan have resisted attempts at liberation.

India and the US actually collaborated to liberate Tibet in the same way that the US tried to liberate Afghanistan. But that petered out. There are, even now "countries waiting to be liberated" - like Kashmir and Palestine for or PoK for India.

Tibet is a very hostile land in terns of climate and resources. It is also huge. The Tibetans as a free people were not kowtowing to India and being friendly in the stupid way Indians seem to get friendly with moronic hostile peoples. It may be better to keep China busy by forcing them to deal with Tibetans fighting for "liberty" rather than Indians going and poking our noses to "liberate" Tibet

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 01 Aug 2017 10:31

Sir, Tibet has to be liberated so that it would for ever be the buffer between yellow Hans and brown Hindu, (they are yellow, but deeply into Buddhism.)

Yeah certainly, (ofcourse not by Design but by naievety) we could dislodge a great burden(of maintenance of Buddhist culture of Tibet) to China for all these years, but this time as we have reasonably developed, we should start the brown man's burden of liberating them from Hans. Hans overplayed their burden in Tibet.

Time has come to teach Hans a lesson, what better way than to cut Hans to size....

India has arrived.(Hans started thinking that they arrived at around 2008 for their rightful place as the center of the universe, Indians have arrived after 9 years. No need to be apologetic about that). It's the responsibility of India to cut Pakistan also into pieces to rid the world of Terrorism, how long can we shy away from our responsibilities? We have truly arrived.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2017 10:35

Singha wrote:i am betting on DT going 'wild' soon and pushing the button that inflicts pain on Noko without consulting japan and soko-they will get the memo after the VLS tubes are all cleared out. it will have to be a massive strike else noko will lash back at soko border tracts. and the strike will have to be followed by a 'dare' to go nukular if noko leader wants or else depose the tyrant and hand him over for trial.

major loss of face for cheen if that happens though they will still try to salvage something by offering to go in with a 'stabilization force', occupy and pacify noko and set the stage for transition to their next chosen tyrant. infact being a clever reptile they might have gamed this as better for long term and goading Kim into escalation after escalation hoping that DT will blow his fuse ... they will earn both brownie points for cleaning up the rubble, catching any kim loyalists and a new foothold on land they will never want to leave. south korea will be eternally grateful too.

I totally agree! DT going wild on NK is by far the best possible scenario for China. I've been thinking out loud on Chinese boards about how to goad him into doing this for months now. The SKs would be pissed at the Americans for starting the war. The PLA would rush in and take over NK, then offer SKs two things that only China can offer: 1) re-unification, and 2) reconstruction with massive Chinese aid/loans as well as massive Chinese excess industrial capacity--all in exchange for American withdrawal from the peninsula.

It'd be a good time for India to make some moves as well with the Chinese distracted, but frankly what happens to the East is heck a lot more important to the Chinese than what happens a plateau and a few mountain ranges away to the West.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2017 10:42

TKiran wrote:Sir, Tibet has to be liberated so that it would for ever be the buffer between yellow Hans and brown Hindu, (they are yellow, but deeply into Buddhism.)

Yeah certainly, (ofcourse not by Design but by naievety) we could dislodge a great burden to China for all these years, but this time as we have reasonably developed, we should start the brown man's burden of liberating them from Hans. Hans overplayed their burden in Tibet.

Time has come to teach Hans a lesson, what better way than to cut Hans to size....

India has arrived.

Well you better work quick, it doesn't take very long for a people to be assimilated when a far stronger power wants to do it, and there aren't that many Tibetans to begin with.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 10:47

for map hounds, apple maps on mac have better satellite imagery than google maps.
but their points of interest in india is much less than google maps.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 10:54

Korea has a tough reputation as a hermit kingdom since the middle ages and a IED for any invader, but culturally and ethnically are they close to the adjacent northern Hans and Manchus ?

the japanese i understand are some older mysterious stock who have been living there from before the mongol expansion of 1200AD and there were no further waves of mainland migration to japan later ? so they are 'close' to none but their own isolationist selves?

obviously the east asian virtues of discipline, respect for elders, work ethic and tight top down control was and is pervasive in japan also.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Aug 2017 11:34

Singha wrote:the japanese i understand are some older mysterious stock who have been living there from before the mongol expansion of 1200AD and there were no further waves of mainland migration to japan later ? so they are 'close' to none but their own isolationist selves?

obviously the east asian virtues of discipline, respect for elders, work ethic and tight top down control was and is pervasive in japan also.

The Chinese believe that the Japanese are a from a lost Chinese tribe that was sent by a Chinese emperor two millennia ago to find a mountain, and they never returned! The Chinese constantly complain that the Japanese historians conveniently 'omit' this fact !!

Under the all-encompassing concept of ‘tian xia’, the Chinese lord over everything / everybody.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 01 Aug 2017 11:43

Read in one of the articles that XI wanted the Indian army to unilaterally withdraw from Doklam before the PLA 90 Anniversary, which is today. We have not backed off... Lets wait and watch and in the mean while grind the axe

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 11:45

they seem to have a bureau with vast resources and #fakenews hounds dedicated to rewriting history and cooking up ancient maps.

would not be surprised if the mantle of mongol empire also falls onto PRC which means all of eurasian steppe upto where it ends in hungary are past vassals of peking and must pay homage. in the middle east the mongols Il-khanate ruled over the ex-persian empire also upto syria. so they too must pay homage.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 01 Aug 2017 11:48

Singha wrote:Korea has a tough reputation as a hermit kingdom since the middle ages and a IED for any invader, but culturally and ethnically are they close to the adjacent northern Hans and Manchus ?

Korea for long suffered from being a thoroughfare for both Japanese and Chinese.

Singha wrote:the japanese i understand are some older mysterious stock who have been living there from before the mongol expansion of 1200AD and there were no further waves of mainland migration to japan later ? so they are 'close' to none but their own isolationist selves?

obviously the east asian virtues of discipline, respect for elders, work ethic and tight top down control was and is pervasive in japan also.

A large number of Japanese people trace back their ancestry to Yayoi people who migrated via (not from) Korea into Japan. As SSridhar Ji pointed out, many Chinese believe they are lost tribes who were sent to find the mythical mountain with the elixir of youth and never returned..

The other groups are much older- Jomon, Ainu, Ryuku etc.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Aug 2017 11:53

Iyersan wrote:Read in one of the articles that XI wanted the Indian army to unilaterally withdraw from Doklam before the PLA 90 Anniversary, which is today. We have not backed off...

Well, that squares up the Demchok incident when PLA intruded and stayed put ahead, during and after Xi Jinping's state visit to India. To make this message reach the Hans clearly and unambiguously, we must repeat a similar one, proactively, when Modi visits China next time.

The Chinese arrogance, apart from the entitlement that they have awarded to themselves as the 'Middle Kingdom' / 'Son of Heaven' bullcrap, also comes from being not challenged enough and shown the mirror firmly and unhesitatingly.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2017 11:56

There are some cultural similarities, closer to the Hans than the Mongols for sure, closer than the Manchus historically as well. The Manchus are much closer to the Mongols than to the Hans or the Koreans both culturally and linguistically. The Mongols/Manchus were descendants of nomads, and they used a similar-looking script (though different language families). The Korean Hangul has been around for about 500 years now, but up until about 100 years ago they mostly used Chinese characters. Historically China and Korea got along fairly well, wars are very rare, and China never controlled all of Korea, so they're definitely ethnically distinct from Hans.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Aug 2017 12:45

Xi says China will never permit loss of ‘any piece’ of land - AP

Chinese President Xi Jinping issued a tough line on national sovereignty Tuesday amid multiple territorial disputes with his country’s neighbors, saying China will never permit the loss of “any piece” of its land to outsiders. {Does he think that others will somehow 'permit' loss of their pieces of land? How arrogant?}

Mr. Xi’s declaration came during a nearly one-hour speech in Beijing marking the 90th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Liberation Army, which has formed a key pillar of support for the ruling Communist Party since 1927 and is the world’s largest standing military, with 2.3 million members.

“The Chinese people treasure peace and we absolutely do not engage in invasion and expansion. However, we have the confidence to conquer all forms of invasion,” Mr. Xi told government leaders and current and retired PLA members gathered at the hulking Great Hall of the People, the seat of the legislature that sits beside Tiananmen Square.

“We absolutely will not permit any person, any organization, any political party at any time, in any form to separate any piece of Chinese territory from China,” Xi said to applause. “No one should expect us to swallow the bitter fruit of damage to our sovereignty, security and development interests.”

Mr. Xi made no reference to any specific conflicts or disputes during his address, which focused largely on the PLA’s growth from a scrappy guerrilla force fighting Chiang Kai-shek’s Nationalists and Japanese invaders into one of the world’s most powerful, if largely untested, militaries.

China has also long been embroiled in a contest with Japan over East China Sea islands, as well as with five other governments over competing claims to territory in the strategically vital South China Sea. Beijing also threatens to use force to conquer Taiwan if peaceful enticements prove insufficient. China considers the self-governing democratic island Chinese territory.

In his speech, Mr. Xi also emphasized that the military’s highest loyalty is to the ruling Communist Party, underscoring the PLA’s key role as regime preserver through crises such as the bloody suppression of 1989 pro-democracy protests at Tiananmen Square. Top Chinese leaders have consistently rejected calls to make the PLA loyal to the government and people instead.

“The people’s army will resolutely safeguard the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party and our country’s socialist system, resolutely safeguard national sovereignty, security and development interests, and resolutely safeguard regional and world peace,” Mr. Xi said. {I see a lurking fear in Xi's mind about PLA's loyalty}

The speech followed a parade on Sunday at a training ground on the edge of the Gobi Desert during which Mr. Xi donned fatigues and declared that the military has the “confidence and capability” to ensure China’s sovereignty, security and national interests.

Mr. Xi, who commands the PLA as chairman of the Central Military Commission, has frequently spoken of his “China Dream” to restore China to a leadership position in international affairs with a modern, far-reaching military force to match.

The parade at the Zhurihe base in Inner Mongolia featured troops and advanced weaponry, and was another forceful indication of Mr. Xi’s iron grip over the PLA and every other political power base within the party ahead of a pivotal congress this autumn that will award him a second five-year term as leader.

That followed similarly high-profile military reviews in Beijing in 2015 and Hong Kong in June. Last week, Mr. Xi bestowed newly created “Aug. 1” honors on servicemen in a further elevation of the armed forces’ stature.

Mr. Xi and his predecessors engineered a radical upgrading of the PLA’s capabilities through years of double-digit percentage increases in the defense budget, making China the world’s second-largest military spender after the United States, although growth has slowed alongside a cooling of the overall economy.

That has also spurred a global role for the PLA, which was formerly overwhelmingly preoccupied with securing China’s territorial integrity.

Alongside its blue-water navy, China is building its first overseas military base in the Horn of Africa nation of Djibouti, and Chinese ships held drills last month with Russia’s navy in the Baltic Sea, more than 10,000 km (6,000 miles) from their home ports.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Aug 2017 12:53

Normally I don't post Indian rags quoting Chinese puke but there is always a time for exceptions. I have never gone to gobar whines to read their bile not even those linked on this forum.

GOI has played it well i.e. carry a stick but speak softly. Beepul wanted fart for fart and presser for presser response. Also not to forget when people wanted a *overt CRISIS level collective* briefing for furrin embassies in response to a similar maneuver by the Chinese to put pressure of the world to put pressure on India to withdraw. This is not to say that briefing has not happened. The Chinese were trying to whip up hysteria while GOI was trying to tamp it down even while maintaining a strong posture at Dolam plateau.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 859216.cms
'Western media favours India', says Chinese media

NEW DELHI: Miffed at international opinion seemingly tilted in favour of New Delhi in the Doklam standoff, China's aggressive state-backed media has accused Western media of being biased in favour of India simply because it is a democracy.

What's more, India "arouses sympathy" because is "in a weaker position compared with China", said an opinion piece in China's Global Times on Tuesday.

"India in the Western media is a victim which has been bullied by China, even though India illegally entered Chinese territory and violated international law to unilaterally intervene in the 'territorial dispute' between China and Bhutan," said the Global Times article.

It was, of course, parroting Beijing's stance that India, rather than its own Peoples Liberation Army troops, violated the border in Doklam on June 16. Never mind that Bhutan - where Doklam is located - and India both called China the aggressor.

That the Western media too portrayed China as the aggressor has annoyed the Global Times columnist.

Western media reports "mainly cited India's rhetoric and what happened from the Indian media's point of view, depicting a mild India which called for a troop withdrawal and bilateral negotiations", said the opinion piece in the Chinese publication.

It added that India has "several advantages" in the sphere of international opinion, chief among them being the fact that it's a Western-style democracy.

"India has a Western-style political system and can gloss over its illegal acts under the banner of democracy," said the piece, adding that India has been a busybody in the region since World War II and the "Western media has ignored all this".

"Since WWII, India has been one of the few countries that annexed a sovereign country. It has inherited colonial legacies and directly interfered with or even diplomatically and militarily controlled its tiny neighbours. The independence movement by India's ethnic groups and the rebellions of some religious sects were put down with cruel suppression. But Western media has ignored all this," said the article.

Global Times believes that India has managed to pull the wool over everyone's eyes simply because it gained independence from the British through non-violent resistance.

"Westerners believe India is a country of peace. Over thousands of years, India was invaded about 300 times. It gained independence through nonviolent resistance to the British Empire. The West believes India created a peaceful model of an anti-colonial movement. Therefore in the eyes of some Western scholars, India has been well-behaved and will not invade or bully other countries," said the Chinese media article.

From my pov, this is not about how bestern media/world views India but how it views China. One of the objectives of Indian action was to expose the empty rhetoric of China's *peaceful rise* again.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 01 Aug 2017 12:57

No way either Delhi or PRC will back down. Some sorta semi-localized border conflict is bound to happen.

Delhi is the underdog. Always was too, against high-n-mighty PRC. Hence, a draw == win for us but == loss (esp of face) for PRC.

So our losses (of face, especially) are capped on the downside to that extent.

In the event of conflict, the entire border will be up for brief grabs. A la 1962, perhaps. Can only hope we can retake Aksai Chin in the event of losing land elsewhere. And CoK, not to mention.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Aug 2017 13:06

There might be a couple of weak area but certainly the entire border is not up for grabs. And given our adequate recon capability, I hope, we should be able to spot large scale movement in any of the venerable area, which are few and reinforce it.

More than the unsettled nature of the border more than the resources it is the mindset which is our problem.