Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

[g.sarkar]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/624 ... rying.html
Chinese daily accuses US of trying to escalate Sikkim standoff
Press Trust of India, Beijing, Jul 26 2017, 14:10 IST
A Chinese daily today accused the US and other countries of trying to escalate the Sino-India standoff to replicate the "South China Sea trick" and seek strategic benefits. "More than five weeks into the border standoff between China and India, some countries other than the two directly involved are trying to step in," an op-ed article in the state-run Global Times said, directly mentioning the US and Australia.
The article titled 'Instigating Sino-India confrontation won't benefit US' referred to commentaries in the US media calling on Washington to provide to support India to "deter and counter" China and rally the world against Beijing.
It also took exception to Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop’s call for resolving the Doklam issue peacefully, saying "Bishop intends to blur the nature of the face-off and shows disguised support for India." The article said "so far, the Donald Trump administration has paid little attention to the US-India ties, and their divergences over issues like trade and immigration remain". "The Americans may think they can copy their South China Sea trick. But what did the US get from the maritime disputes? Likewise, Washington won't get any benefits from the escalation of the Sino-India confrontation. China won't give up safeguarding its territory because of US interference," it said. The article said the US seems to be everywhere when conflicts come up and it seldom takes an impartial posture to help address the problems.
......

Gautam

[Deans]

http://www.news18.com/news/india/an-ind ... 73417.html

Rakshaks can have some fun by commenting.
Perhaps a comment from Mr. `Eleven Gin Pegs' saying how screwed up Chinese policy is...

[fanne]

there will be no war, because the outcome will not be of china's liking. There could be limited skirmish, the outcome there will also be not to Chinese liking. We have whole Tibet to reclaim, Chinese have few sq km left before they have to literally climb the Himalayas. The few passes where they can come, we are waiting, there the number do not count, the front is small, defender has the advantage. They can attack by plane/missile on the passes, so can we. its not looking good for them.

[shiv]

On the strategic front India should offer rest of the world a large shipping base for world navies to protect Indian ocean region and provide safe passage in the region..with hundreds of ships patrolling the lanes..in the region..to protect trade.

This must not happen. Our 3 ponds are Bay of B, Arabian sea and Indian Ocean. These ponds are unlike Pacific and Atlantic or Baltic and North Sea or Arctic ocean. Our ponds are murky, silty and have crazy thermal clines. Only we should know what it's like in detail...

[UlanBatori]

Mao say: Those hu r ignorant of history are condommed to repeat it. (sigh!)

Most postors here have absolutely no clue about modern-day Chinese and their piskological makeup. They are almost entirely brats with no brother, sister, uncle, aunt or cousion. Absolute Munna upbringing with all the tantrum-throwing traits that implies. Add their HUGE superiority complex from China's rise in the world, inferiority complex at how they are treated by the rest of the world, and you have an utterly irrational, vicious, petty makeup.

Bhutan is also the only country in the region that joined India in its boycott of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s marquee project, the Belt and Road Initiative.

Ah so! H&D issue! Perfect example. This is as bad as the broken-glasses political commissar ordering machinegunning the 70 Indian soldiers in 1967,while his troops all sat low on the mountain as sitting ducks for Indian artillery.

These sh1ts "pushed aside Bhutanese soldiers at gunpoint" apparently. That is what triggered the Indian intervention.

Now they have a problem all right, in full view of the world, and all commentators rubbing that in with glee.

But like I said, all this talk of Indian "conventional superiority" deterring the PLA ignores the above irrational, pompous pr1cks ruling the PLA's decision-making. If that conventional superiority results in an entire Chinese invasion force getting destroyed, yes, expect tactical nukes to be used. I hope India makes the same threat too in private.

Time for Indians to start digging holes in the ground. In the 60s our elders' generation had mandatory NCC training, including slithering under barbed wire on gravel carrying .303 rifles. 3 days per week after classes. Would be sooooo good for these armchair generals to receive such good exercise!!!

[sanjayc]

Is it possible for India to offer a land swap deal, where we swap equivalent area in any of our uninhabited (or sparsely inhabited) parts of North East that border Bhutan for Doklam plateau? Even 100 sq kms would suffice as the rest is already under Chinese occupation.

It does require Bhutan taking a strong stand as China considers the region disputed...But there is a precedent set by Pakistan and China in a similar scenario.

Feeding the crocodile has never worked for anyone.

[panduranghari]

Does India need to move back from Dolam if Chinese agree to leave? Can we really trust the lizard who pretends to be a dlagon?

[Philip]

The arrogance and cretinity level of the Beijing mandarins amazes me. Like Lavrov astounded by the anti-Russian hysteria in Washington,so too do we look aghast at China's effrontery,temerity and acute cretinity when it comes to dealing with its neighbours. It has NEVER ever in history acknowledged equals,only vassals.It grudgingly acknowledges the US as a superior,which it must surpass before 2050.In the above piece about the Indian fillibustering of the SCO,etc.,the amazing fact is that if China was so mindful of the sentiments of its neighbours,it would've settled with India the boundary dispute sometime ago in the last century,certainly in the late '70s at least after we showed the world who was top dog in the subcontinent and iOR,post the creation of BDesh.

A "give and take" attitude from China decades ago would've resolved the LAC/border.Instead,China's policy of "take and take" ultimately gets stuck when a strong will rules Delhi.With no movement whatsoever on supporting India over terror..from Pak,NSG membership,etc., the ingrats of Zhongnanhai who've conveniently forgotten how they were gifted their UNSC seat by the "nawab of naivety", Nehru,still think that like soldier ants they can amrh and march into foreign lands with impunity.

If nothing comes out of the BRICS meet,India should ramp up its "punishment" of China through aggressive eco and dpl. means. We've listed out many a time how China can be given the sharp pointed stick up its bunghole. China is not going to blink until after the upcoming party congress,where opium-head and drunken sot XI Gins,plans to grab supreme power over his rivals. This intervening time is fraught with danger for us as Xi Gins would early love to show his partymen that he's taught India another "lesson" militarily. India's swift mil reaction to his Himalayan adventurism has caught him off guard.
He thought that Mr. Modi was simply a "poseur",not a man of steel.He hasn't studied history and learnt about the mettle of leaders from Gujarat.Mr.Modi and India today have not forgotten the Sardar's advice which Nehru discarded ,was thus humiliated in '[62 and went to an early grave as a result.

[Javee]

dlagon navy is preparing for a major show-off in their side of the pond,

China's navy will temporarily seal off part of the Yellow Sea to maritime traffic for "large-scale" military purposes, authorities announced, ahead of the coming 90th anniversary of the founding of the People's Liberation Army....
"A map illustrating the restricted area - which covers approximately 40,000 square kilometers - was included in the report, which sourced a People's Liberation Army (PLA) troop, codenamed 91208, and the Shandong Maritime Safety Administration.

-Globaltimes

[SSridhar]

India well-defended in tri-junction: officials - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu

A day after the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) said it would “safeguard China’s sovereignty whatever the cost,” official sources said on Tuesday that India was well-defended in the tri-junction and China’s latest rhetoric was part of the build-up ahead of the meeting of the National Security Advisers of then BRICS nations in Beijing later this week.

Indian National Security Adviser Ajit Doval will be in Beijing on Thursday and Friday to attend the meeting.

At a disadvantage

“China’s build-up is essentially in the backdrop of the meeting of the NSAs. They cannot take any action in the Chumbi Valley as they are at a disadvantage. If they do anything in any other area, it will be seen as expansionist,” a senior official said. On Monday, Wu Qian, spokesperson for the Ministry of National Defence, said: “The Chinese border troops have taken initial counter measures at the site and will step up targeted deployment and training.” Warning India not to have any “impractical illusions,” Col. Wu said it would be easier to shake a mountain than the PLA.

China has maintained an aggressive diplomatic posture since the stand-off began on June 16. Indian troops prevented Chinese troops from building a road through the disputed Dokala plateau.

Some officials have said China has upped the ante so much that it is now looking for a way-out. “It is not an area where the Chinese would want to resort to any military adventure. Logistically and geographically, we are far better placed,” said a former Brigadier.

[RKumar]

x-posting from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7090&start=3280#p2190565

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/economy/ ... r-standoff
Are China-India trade ties turning sour amid border standoff?

China has complained about India opening an anti-dumping investigation into Chinese solar cell products in the latest trade friction between the two Asian giants amid a border standoff in the Himalayas.

China and India are two fastest-growing major economies, but trade turnover between the two countries fell in 2016. India started 12 cases against Chinese imports in the first half of this year, even more than the 11 cases the US is pursuing against Chinese imported goods, according to the Ministry of Commerce in Beijing.

The Chinese government is highly concerned about New Delhi’s decision last week to investigate the Chinese products for dumping, Wang Hejun, the director general of the commerce ministry’s trade relief bureau, said in a statement on Tuesday.

Seems like things gonna go hot ... now onwards!!

[ashish raval]

On the strategic front India should offer rest of the world a large shipping base for world navies to protect Indian ocean region and provide safe passage in the region..with hundreds of ships patrolling the lanes..in the region..to protect trade.

This must not happen. Our 3 ponds are Bay of B, Arabian sea and Indian Ocean. These ponds are unlike Pacific and Atlantic or Baltic and North Sea or Arctic ocean. Our ponds are murky, silty and have crazy thermal clines. Only we should know what it's like in detail...

Everybody knows everywhere what waters looks like. No one country can stand up to super powers. We need to build alliances and have something for others to stay as ally. If alliances are not built everyone pokes like vultures when the times comes if alliances are built we behave like a pack and can strongly have opinion on our side as a democratic nation. It is still few decades away that we can be in top 3 pack..till then alliance is best bet. I don't see any reason why one of island can be offered as base..near Malacca straights..still far from Indian littoral.

[Pulikeshi]

^^^ Your thinking is way out of wack with Indian Policy Makers or Leadership and thankfully Indian Navy has historic precedent of Indian wisdom on how to defend these waters! (Translation if you did not understand my diplomatize - please stop smoke bad stuff and losing all credibility)

[Philip]

Immediate (after upgrade) transfer of a goodly part of the mothballed TU-22M3 Backfire fleet from Ru. To be equipped with BMos,LRCMs and hyper-BMos in the future.Operating out of our landmass they could sanitise the entire IOR and even unto the Indo-China Sea ,operating out of the A&N islands/refuelling from there. PLAN assets will have short and very exciting futures.We're waiting to see China's string of (blazing) pearls in the Indian Ocean!

Worth reposting:
https://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than ... ber_615567

Does India really need Russia’s ‘Backfire’ bomber?
27 July 2016 RAKESH KRISHNAN SIMHA
Lacking strategic vision, the Indian Air Force remains content to operate at the theatre level, but perhaps the fearsome Cold Warrior from Russia can help change that mindset.*(Backfires if ever obtained under IN control!)

Russia’s Tu-22M3 long-range bombers strike IS facilities in Syria
India seeks four strategic bombers from Russia

The Indian Air Force has a variety of specialised fighters, ground attack jets and multirole aircraft in its fleet, but a strategic bomber has never figured in its war plans. According to the Russian wire service Interfax, that could change as India’s Ministry of Defence has reportedly sought to buy four Tupolev Tu-22M3 maritime strike bombers from Russia.

This isn’t the first time reports have surfaced that India is interested in acquiring this fearsome Cold Warrior – codenamed Backfire by NATO. According to the Federation of American scientists, “In December 1999 it was announced that India would lease four Tu-22M3 Backfire bombers, with the aircraft slated to arrive in India as early as June 2000.” They never did.

However, the first time the Backfire was set to fly into the subcontinent was in mid-1971 when Russia offered it as a strategic bomber. However, Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal rejected the offer.

India seeks four strategic bombers from Russia
Defence analyst Bharat Karnad said, the “reasons trotted out verged on the farcical”. Karnad explains: “As Wing Commander (later Air Marshal) C.V. Gole, member of the Air Marshal Shivdev Singh Mission to Moscow and test pilot, who flew the Tu-22(M) informed me, he was appalled by the fact that he had to be winched up into the cockpit, and that the plane would have to take off from as far east as Bareilly to reach cruising altitude over Pakistan!”

Although the Backfire has been creating panic in American carrier groups for decades (the Chinese have also tried hard to buy the bomber or its design blueprints), which is an indication of its utility, the IAF has refused to accept what has been offered to it on a platter. It prefers to remain bogged down at the theatre level while steadfastly refusing to grow a strategic wing.

Armed and dangerous
To be sure, the Backfire is a completely different species of aircraft compared with the IAF’s current fleet, and a doctrinal transplant would have to happen before the IAF brass can envision a role for a long-range strike bomber.

The Tu-22M is an extremely large aircraft flown by a four-man crew of a pilot, co-pilot, navigator and weapon systems operator. With its phenomenal combat range of 2400 km, and a blistering speed of over 2300 kph (faster than most jet fighters), the Tu-22M is ideal for targeting aircraft carriers and large ships. Russian tests reveal that when a shaped charge warhead weighing 1000 kg was used in the Kh-22 missile, the resulting hole measured 16 ft in diameter and 40 ft deep. Not even the largest US Navy CVNs can survive such an impact, and at the very least will be out of commission of months.

The bomber is designed to take off from secure inland bases, be vectored towards US aircraft carrier groups and fire its complement of up to six – often nuclear-tipped – cruise missiles from safe standoff distances.

The Backfire’s primary weapon is the supersonic Raduga Kh-22 cruise missile. In high-altitude mode, it climbs to the edge of space (89,000 ft) and makes a near hypersonic speed dive towards its target. In low-altitude mode, it climbs to 39,000 ft (higher than most commercial airliners) and makes a shallow dive at Mach 3.5, making the final approach at an altitude under 1600 ft.

New long-range Russian bomber to be different
Bill Sweetman and Bill Gunston write in ‘Soviet Air Power’ that the Kh-22 missile could be “programmed to enter the correct Pentagon window”. In fact, during the 1980s, Russian Naval Aviation was so sure about the accuracy of these missiles that the Backfire carried only one Kh-22, armed with a nuclear warhead.

Today’s Backfires are also equipped with the more advanced Kh-15. This missile climbs to an astounding 130,000 ft and then dives in on the target, accelerating to Mach 5, which makes it the world’s fastest aircraft-launched missile.

Just like the MiG-25 spooked western air force pilots of a previous generation, the Backfire was a big scare word in western military circles during the 1970s. American experts involved in arms limitation talks believed it was an intercontinental strategic bomber. Russian secrecy about the aircraft’s capabilities added to the speculation, leading American intelligence and US aircraft manufacturers (for obvious reasons) to suggest inflated ranges. This led to fears that the Backfire could strike the continental US.

However, even when the Russians added in-flight refuelling capability, the Backfire wasn’t intended to strike the US, but rather its naval assets in the open sea. Russian Naval Aviation strategists envisioned up to a hundred Tu-22M bombers making a pack attack against US Navy carrier battle groups in the event of war.

Backfire for India
Built at the peak of the Cold War when speed, payload and range mattered more than cost, the heavy Backfire is expensive to operate and maintain. The general consensus was that deploying it against high value assets alone makes sense. However, Russia used it with devastating effect against the Afghan Mujahideen in the 1980s, and in the 2008 Georgian War, with its iconic moment when Georgia’s tie-chewing President Mikheil Saakashvili runs for cover as Russian bombers fly overhead.

Again, in the ongoing conflict in Syria, Backfires have rained freefall bombs, destroying Daesh assets as well as US-backed terror groups. These strikes have severely degraded Daesh strength in the region.

пустым не оставлять!!
Who needs to down the FGFA?
Since the IAF has at least 400 attack aircraft, including the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000, that have Pakistan sorted, deploying the Backfire against Pakistan would be a huge overkill. Using limited numbers against Chinese land targets would be suicidal as Beijing has a robust air defence network bolstered by the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft missile and its Chinese knockoffs.

The Backfire’s only conceivable deployment in India is as a maritime strike bomber against People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) assets, especially in the backdrop of growing Chinese naval activity in the Indian Ocean.

Backfires operating from the Thanjavur Air Force Base in southern India – and armed with the 300 km range BrahMos – can comfortably strike naval assets up to Seychelles. They can also be used to target PLAN vessels operating in the South China Sea. The bomber’s ferry of 6800 km means it can reach Darwin, Australia, without aerial refuelling. Clearly, such an aircraft would be a huge force multiplier for India.

If the media reports about India wanting a limited number of just four Backfires are true, then it would suggest they would be deployed in a maritime – rather than strategic – strike role. The bombers are equipped to receive data directly from spy satellites monitoring the oceans. India, which has a constellation of ocean survey and spy satellites, can access real time satellite intelligence and despatch the Backfires on ship hunting missions. The bombers can also be guided by scout aircraft.

Forces rivalry
While the IAF’s timidity in adopting a strategic role is a likely reason for the repeated rejection of the Backfire, another factor could be forces rivalry. Air forces are highly resistant to strategic bombing being done by the navy or army. The Tu-22M being a specialised maritime strike bomber, it could – in the IAF’s view – be the beginning of the navy’s strategic air arm. The air force clearly doesn’t want the Indian Navy poaching on its turf. In this backdrop, chances are the IAF will find another farcical excuse to scuttle Backfire talks.

Operate with caution
The Russian bomber is certainly a game changer, but it doesn’t mean India should rush headlong into a deal. In terms of size, firepower and reach, it dwarfs everything in India’s air arm, but it should not be forgotten that the Tu-22M is a 40 year old design. It last rolled off the assembly lines in 1993 and the aircraft is well out of guarantee, so the delivery of spares might be an issue.

пустым не оставлять!!
Why the BrahMos armed Sukhoi is bad news for India’s enemies
Flight Global reports that in 1991 the Tu-22M mission-capable rate was just 30-40 per cent, although it was not really a representative year because that’s when the Soviet command economy had collapsed.

India should have bought these aircraft cheap as chips when the Soviet Union dissolved and Moscow was wondering what to do with 300 surplus Backfires. But costs aside, having a nascent fleet comprising just four bombers would still be a good idea as it would give India a rare glimpse into the world of strategic airpower.

Endgame
During the Cold War, only two organisations in the West had got the Backfire’s range right. The first was US aircraft maker McDonnell Douglas and the other was Flight International, where Sweetman, the defence analyst worked. Years later, in 1992, the Russians brought the Tu-22M to the Farnborough International Air Show, along with a one-page handout. According to Sweetman, “We’d hit the fuel capacity within 5 per cent.”

When Flight International had published the Backfire’s range, an engineer from McDonnell Douglas had called them, wondering how the magazine had hit the same numbers his team had. Sweetman explains: “Later, I found out why that McDonnell Douglas guy was so surprised. His team had been working for what he preferred to call the Culinary Institute of America, which was quarrelling with the US Air Force. The Air Force claimed the Backfire had intercontinental range; the CIA said it could make it with inflight refuelling but could never get back.

“US Air Force intelligence boss Major General George Keegan threatened to mess with the F-15 programme – a huge McDonnell Douglas contract – if McDonnell Douglas analysts, the ones feeding the CIA, didn’t find more fuel tanks in the Russian bomber so that their conclusions matched his. CEO Sanford “Sandy” McDonnell stood his ground. Keegan went on to start the Great Space Laser Panic of ’79. And the Tu-22M did what it did best, which wasn’t strategic bombing but scaring the bejeesus out of carrier groups.”

[ramana]

schinnas, Do us a favor and post complete thoughts. No pressure or limitations on number of words.
You have some thing on your mind and everyone else thought the opposite.
I too was about to give hot reply to you when I scrolled down.
Don't do that again.

We have short emotions on this thread already.

Only Saik can post 'apparent' half formed thoughts. 'Apparent' as he thinks in assembler and does make sense if you are also thinking in Assembler.

In case anyone doesn't get it this is a caution to not be taken as trolling.
We are Admins short handed as usual.

[UlanBatori]

Is it possible for India to offer a land swap deal, where we swap equivalent area in any of our uninhabited (or sparsely inhabited) parts of North East that border Bhutan for Doklam plateau? Even 100 sq kms would suffice as the rest is already under Chinese occupation.

It does require Bhutan taking a strong stand as China considers the region disputed...But there is a precedent set by Pakistan and China in a similar scenario.

Feeding the crocodile has never worked for anyone.

Absolutely! The big mistake is being reasonable as in pre-announcing "We are only going to defend our well-defined border!" So the pr1cks move one foot further. Are you going to kick them? Nah! So another foot. Pretty soon a whole road capable of 40-ton loads, and the pr1cks push back your troops at gunpoint with tanks behind them.
The Strike Force is an excellent idea, and India should start making demands that are way over the top, like:

Stop bissing in Manasarovar. Kailas is ours. So is Lhasa. Vacate Aksai ChinHind.

[UlanBatori]

Most of all, a $18B/yr hit on their exports to India, will convey the message loud and clear. The PLA jarnails whose wallets get hit, will send the Doklam road jeenius to make roads - in the Gobi desert - with his bare hands.

[ashish raval]

^^^ Your thinking is way out of wack with Indian Policy Makers or Leadership and thankfully Indian Navy has historic precedent of Indian wisdom on how to defend these waters! (Translation if you did not understand my diplomatize - please stop smoke bad stuff and losing all credibility)

Why are you starting to personal jibes!!

If you have some intelligent point to put on how to deal with enemy having 50 submarines in your backwaters please share and do refrain from making it personal

[Philip]

Spot on! That is exactly what elements in the Parivar want the nation to recognise.I advocated that all maps not to show Tibet as being part of China but "Tibet"-Occupied by China.China thus far has had little counter to its brazen,audacity and temerity in renaming territory not belonging to it as once being part of China.Nations should collectively and independently give China the dpl. equiv of an "FU" and ridicule the Godless sh*tworms of the PRC. Only public humiliation and loss of face will rein in the Chinese.They go gooey at the knees when the sh*t is shoved into their face.

Some xtra details about the Backfires.

When the Backfire was introduced into service, it caused a lot of concern within the U.S. Navy because it is designed to carry a massive load of long-range anti-ship cruise missiles. The jet is fast—it has a top speed of Mach 1.88 and will easily sustain Mach 1.6 for extended periods—and carries 53,000lbs of weapons. Typically, that meant the Tu-22M3 could be carrying ten Raduga Kh-15 anti-ship missiles or three massive Raduga Kh-22 missiles—both of which can hit speeds of around Mach 5.0. The 13,000lbs Kh-22 was especially feared because of its long 320 nautical mile range and 2,200lbs shaped-charge warhead that could cripple an aircraft carrier with a single blow.

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But it also carries conventional free-fall bombs—as many as seventy FAB-250-class weapons or eight FAB-1500-class weapons. A Russian ministry of defense video indicates that the Tu-22M3 dropped OFAB-250-270 bombs—basically 551lbs of blast fragmentation weapons—on Syria. Dunarit—which manufactures the OFAB-250-270—helpfully points out the weapon “is intended for destruction of military-industrial sites, railway junctions, field facilities and personnel in open terrain as well as in light armoured vehicles and trucks on the march or during attack within the main concentration perimeter.”

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... 22m3-14396

Chinese forces caught out in the open Tibetan plateau could be made into mincemeat by a few Backfire strikes.IN/IAF,pl do act upon this opportunity.

[TKiran]

Actually it is us who have to say, "please withdraw then only we can have any talks."

Instead, when they (Han) say this, actually they (Han) are not giving peace any chance. They are pushing themselves into corner and they will attack us in Doka Lam, sometime immediately after the politbureao meeting, when emperor Eleven is crowned.

Mark my words, I am the first to predict.

1. They will attack us at the Tri-junction area.
2.they will be the first to fire (PLA will choose to fight)
3. They will get bloody nose, IA will liberate Tibet àla Bangladesh. (It's PLA which has not learnt lesson from India's 1971 war, wisemen learn from seeing the East Pakistan, but Han are no wise.)

4. China will be clipped to size, the CPC would still survive, even after they loose sovereignty over Tibet. It could be a bloody war at Lhasa.

[DavidD]

I posted about a reported missile test by china around our northern borders. Remarkable silence about it in media & elsewhere.

The silence isn't really remarkable, China conducted 8 ballistic missile tests in April and then another 8 in May, this is the 4th test in July. This one just happened to have some pretty pictures. The launch site was near Urumqi.

Here's a good analysis by Henri K (google translate works very well), including the likely trajectory, purpose, and some more pictures by other witnesses:
http://www.eastpendulum.com/quand-un-pi ... -plein-vol

[Iyersan]

US won't sit idle if India-China conflict breaks out: Experts
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 776785.cms

[UlanBatori]

From WSJ:

China’s meteoric rise in prosperity has instilled confidence in many Chinese, especially younger ones who have only experienced good times.

That's only 0.001% of the problem. The problem is the Munna upbringing. This is also their downfall: Chinese parents will attack the govt if their Munna is killed in war without purpose. They have nothing left to live for. So Chinese "human wave" tactics of the past will not work.
Unfortuntely, instead they will use missile wave. {dhoti-shiver}

I agree that the local commander will attack. Or the bigger sector commander will attack somewhere else. In either case I think India should attack where a large swath of territitory is de-hanned in a short time.
But before that, Indians should stop buying Chinese products.

[chola]

Nothing happened yet?

[Iyersan]

Nothing happened yet?

Doval has just landed. The first bullet will be fired tomorrow night india time, if he really pisses them off

[Mihir]

India should start making demands that are way over the top, like:

Stop bissing in Manasarovar. Kailas is ours. So is Lhasa. Vacate Aksai ChinHind.

There's a small village called Minsar beside Manasarovar that for several decades was a Ladakhi enclave within Tibet. India has a very strong claim to it, that the Chinese have not denied in border talks. A good pressure point.

[ramana]

US won't sit idle if India-China conflict breaks out: Experts
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 776785.cms

What kind of experts are these that rely on far away powers that are joined at the hip with China?
US will do zilch if the balloon goes up.

In 1971 they (Henry Kissinger) were egging China to attack India.

[Javee]

I thought we gave away Minsar to them during the hindi chini bhai bhai times??

[Iyersan]

http://www.india.com/news/agencies/dova ... f-2354241/
Doval arrives in Beijing amid Sikkim standoff

My name is Doval......Ajit Doval

[KrishnaK]

THE DRAGON BREATHES FIRE AT DOKLAM -- SHOULD INDIA BE PREPARED FOR LIMITED WAR ? - By Lt Gen Philip Campose

As far as China is concerned, despite holding out repeated threats of initiating military confrontation, its options appear to be quite limited. ‘All-out war’ appears almost out of the question considering that India is nuclear armed, and also, a large scale confrontation would draw international opprobrium, and possibly, intervention in some form by the US. This would be very damaging for China’s long term ambitions to achieve superpower status and challenge US uni-polarity. As for a ‘limited war’ option, China would be aware that the outcome can go either way. In fact, the Indian military is much better positioned motivationally and logistically for conduct of such operations in the current circumstances. Moreover, China would have to reverse all existing peace agreements with India and Bhutan, starting with the 1993 BPTA with India, before it can opt to use lethal force. Use of lethal force by China would prematurely kill the concept of ‘peaceful rise’ and set alarm bells ringing in its neighbourhood and all across the world. Furthermore, it would be risking its economic relationship with India, where it has invested heavily and with whom it currently enjoys a huge trade surplus.

For India too, the options are limited. Backing down and pulling out is not an option as it would tantamount to letting down Bhutan, a time tested ally. India also sees itself as a future Asian leader, alongside China, and thus is not likely to go for this ‘weaker option.’ India is also aware that, given terrain advantages and the advantages of its Air Force, a ‘limited war’ or ‘skirmish,’ on the lines of Nathu La 1967, would be a best case option, which could yield favourable dividends, both strategic and tactical.

[DrRatnadip]

http://m.timesofindia.com/world/china/c ... 772955.cms

China steps up warning to Botswana over Dalai Lama visit

BEIJING: China stepped up its warning to Botswana on Wednesday over a planned visit by exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama next month, demanding the African nation respect China's core interests.
The Dalai Lama, reviled by Beijing as a dangerous separatist, is expected to address a human rights conference in the capital, Gaborone, on August 17-19 and will also meet Botswana's president. China is a major investor in Botswana's economy

Chinese should set up separate "warning ministry" to give warning to all..

[rsingh]

^^^^^
MEA has to announce that India is not seeking any discussion on current incident. Doval's visit strictly limited to BRIC meet. If China wants to dicuss the issue we are ready but first China has to recall its troops from forward position in a verifiable manner.

[ramana]

Commenting

THE DRAGON BREATHES FIRE AT DOKLAM -- SHOULD INDIA BE PREPARED FOR LIMITED WAR ? - By Lt Gen Philip Campose

As far as China is concerned, despite holding out repeated threats of initiating military confrontation, its options appear to be quite limited. ‘All-out war’ appears almost out of the question considering that India is nuclear armed, and also, a large scale confrontation would draw international opprobrium, and possibly, intervention in some form by the US. This would be very damaging for China’s long term ambitions to achieve superpower status and challenge US uni-polarity. As for a ‘limited war’ option, China would be aware that the outcome can go either way. In fact, the Indian military is much better positioned motivationally and logistically for conduct of such operations in the current circumstances. Moreover, China would have to reverse all existing peace agreements with India and Bhutan, starting with the 1993 BPTA with India, before it can opt to use lethal force. Use of lethal force by China would prematurely kill the concept of ‘peaceful rise’ and set alarm bells ringing in its neighbourhood and all across the world. Furthermore, it would be risking its economic relationship with India, where it has invested heavily and with whom it currently enjoys a huge trade surplus.

For India too, the options are limited. Backing down and pulling out is not an option as it would tantamount to letting down Bhutan, a time tested ally. India also sees itself as a future Asian leader, alongside China, and thus is not likely to go for this ‘weaker option.’ India is also aware that, given terrain advantages and the advantages of its Air Force, a ‘limited war’ or ‘skirmish,’ on the lines of Nathu La 1967, would be a best case option, which could yield favourable dividends, both strategic and tactical.

Looks like NaMo put China on Liquid Oxygen.
Either option is bad for them.

Best way for them is to claim peaceful settlement post Doval visit.

[rsingh]

China has warned almost all of the countries of the world at some time. Heck it is also warning its own people,provinces, religious and ethnic groups. IIRC, once they warned themselves as well...........at some party meet (about corruption).

[Marten]

rdji and others: I don't know how smart desi bijnejppl are, but I do know that v r missing a great opportunity to biss on the dlagon if v don't do our share of propagating a Dump The Dragon movement (someone pls come up with a catchy Hindi and Tamil and Kannada name for it?). Look at the numbers:

India’s exports to China decreased by 12.29 % year-on-year to $ 11.748 billion, while India’s imports from China saw a year-on-year growth of 2.01 % to $ 59.428 billion.

OK, if a 10% boycott can be achieved, that's $6B/yr. Enough to cut two Aircraft Carriers and a nuclear sub from the Dragon's plans. $5 per desi. How about developing a catchy slogan to cut purchase of Chinese goods by Rs.1000 per person? Replace your intended purchase of a Made in China item with a Made Anywhere Else Except Pakistan item. Diss that purse. Toss those shoes. Biss on that figurine. Buy a phone that is **NOT** Made in China (that's Rs. 15000 right there!) Ask ppl to post a moving tally as Comments under the Petition: let the dlagon see the $6B add up. For far too long, Chinese arrogance, crookedness and downright greed have gone unpunished. No longer.

I am disqualifying Chinese phones for my upcoming Cellphone Purchase RFQ, to replace Supreme HQ's ancient Nokia. This is a grander and more detailed effort than the MRCA, Bofors and MiG-21 replacement combined. Sadly, last year I bought a Lenovo thinking it was a nice American company running a sweatshop in say, Thailand. Turns out it was Chinese. Well, I'll be more careful.

How about it? If 10,000 BRFees can achieve a boycott of $100 each, that's $1M. A good example. Beats **rting here about how great our fighting qualities are. Once we have about 50 ppl posting, we can start a thread just for that.

If you had stepped into the Phone thread, Sir, you would notice some of us have been doing precisely this for many years.

[DrRatnadip]

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1058178.shtml

India’s intrusion into Chinese territory angers veterans of the 1962 battle

India's trespass into Chinese territory has angered many veterans in China who fought the war on the Sino-Indian border 55 years ago.

They have vowed to send their children to the battle field if another war is needed.

"India's intrusion and denial to withdraw has set off a wave of anger among us. When we heard that the army unit where we used to serve has been recently dispatched to Tibet, we felt excited," Chen Qungeng, director of the 1962 border war veterans association in Shaanxi Province, told the Global Times.

"If needed, we are willing to send our sons and grandsons to the frontline," pledged the 73-year-old man in Xi'an, who was an anti-aircraft gun soldier during the war.

[UlanBatori]

Bahut dhanyawad, Martenji. Keep at it pls, right time to take it global. Until 3 days back ppl felt faaar more positive about China, and would only boycott Pakistan. Now with some encouragement using history, Falun Gong, Tibet/ Tiananmen Square, HongKong prodemocracy protests, Phillippines, NoKo, the results may be far more than we thought possible. Come down to it, people buy Chinese products because they are cheaper. This stuff can cause China to totally lose price advantage.

China steps up warning to Botswana over Dalai Lama visit

Just for that I am going to invite the Dalai Lama.

[abhik]

Is it possible for India to offer a land swap deal, where we swap equivalent area in any of our uninhabited (or sparsely inhabited) parts of North East that border Bhutan for Doklam plateau? Even 100 sq kms would suffice as the rest is already under Chinese occupation.

It does require Bhutan taking a strong stand as China considers the region disputed...But there is a precedent set by Pakistan and China in a similar scenario.

Feeding the crocodile has never worked for anyone.

We can do what the Chinese reportedly tried with Bhutan, grab some more land somewhere else and then offer a land swap.

[DrRatnadip]

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1058207.shtml

Why can’t Chinese stocks match the outstanding 2017 performance of Indian equities?

After India's stock market hit record highs on Tuesday, Chinese social media was awash with intensive discussions, as many wondered why China's A-share market has performed not so good as its neighbor's equity market. Generally speaking, stock markets are a mirror of the economy, so the divergent stock market performances in China and India actually reflect the different economic focuses of the two countries in the years to come.

On Tuesday, India's Nifty 50 broke the psychologically important 10,000-point mark for the first time, while the Bombay Stock Exchange's Sensex index hit a new high of 32,374.30 points. The Nifty 50, which is composed of the country's 50 largest companies traded on the National Stock Exchange, has gained more than 20 percent so far this year, becoming one of the world's best-performing benchmarks.

Those gains have left the Chinese mainland stock markets in the dust, with the benchmark Shanghai Composite Index eking out a mere 4.64 percent year-to-date rise as of Wednesday.

To some extent, the divergent performances simply show the different levels of economic development in the two countries. In India, the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been especially aggressive this year in pursuing policy reforms. Encouraged by the implementation of demonetization and the introduction of a goods and seetrvices tax, plus the easing of foreign direct investment regulations, overseas institutional investors have begun warming to Indian stocks. Expectations of an interest rate cut and robust economic growth have also enhanced investor confidence in Indian equities.

^^ One more reason for yellow lizard's fury.. They must explain every time to their population why democratic India is doing better..

[UlanBatori]

Mao-coat shivering:

After Dalai Lama speaks at California varsity, Chinese students worry Beijing won't recognize their degrees