Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 10:09

Shiv sir, there's no dearth of leadership as almost half the population (Han) are party guys, they talk like Eleven. So someone surviving will take the leadership, only problem would be that China would be cut to size, the Tibet and Xinjiang would be independent countries. Some more provinces would secede. It will be business as usual with more members in UN àla USSR.

In fact, it's not necessary for Beijing annihilation, even as we are going to liberate Tibet, this will be the outcome. Shishupala did the same in rajasuya, hubris is the cause of Doklam.
Last edited by TKiran on 03 Aug 2017 10:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2017 10:15

I think these are pipe dreams. why should the PLA just sit by and admit defeat letting vast segments secede? who will provide weapons to non-Han minorities and how will these minorities tiny in number fight in the desolate terrain?

nothing except a proper MAD works vs Cheen. these low cost tactics are best left to deal with TSP.

we need to invest and build capability , not kick around cans and find excuses for failure to invest.

internal failure of large countries is always preceded by a long periodic of economic decline and civil strife over shared resources.
this has been a ancient rule. regional commanders have to rise in stature and gradually assert their independence -as the mughals weakend, the mansabdars went their own way, the most famous being the asaf jahi dynasty in Hyd.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 10:20

VKumar wrote:What is future economic value of a war for China? Over next 50 years? TSP of course will be finished.

A related thought is like this

In India the states are independent entities with the center doing defence, foreign policy etc. If the center goes the states go on as usual.

China is controlled by the center. If you damage the center, what is the mechanism by which the provinces will continue to implement CPC policies or that they will all maintain rigid loyalty to Xi Jinping. If Xi Jinping is put out of action, or if his ability to show his power and seat of power 9beijing) is devastated, will his power continue?

Let me add some basic human behavioural info here. You never have a human group who are 100% behind one person. there is always dissidence and "alternative leaders" . If you shake Xi Jinpings base what happens? The man has taken years to get "full control". Why is that needed?

if you shake Modi's base many of us will cry, but someone else will take over after due election- say Sonia, Nitish Kumar or Siddaramaiah

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2017 10:22

yeah but in case of cheen the alternates are likely to be as warlike as the current incumbent. there is no 'gandhian' dissident around - such people are in exile, jail or dead. the party makes sure of that.
in a nest of raptors, if the king raptor is retired, who climbs to control the heap? the next most fierce and ruthless!

this is same as islamic societies finding leaders.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 10:25

Singha wrote:I think these are pipe dreams. why should the PLA just sit by and admit defeat letting vast segments secede? who will provide weapons to non-Han minorities and how will these minorities tiny in number fight in the desolate terrain?

The question is - why would the PLA have to do anything at all? Would parts of China want to secede? Is the whole country not whole?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 10:28

Singha wrote:yeah but in case of cheen the alternates are likely to be as warlike as the current incumbent. there is no 'gandhian' dissident around - such people are in exile, jail or dead. the party makes sure of that.
in a nest of raptors, if the king raptor is retired, who climbs to control the heap? the next most fierce and ruthless!

this is same as islamic societies finding leaders.

That is a general statement that the others are "warlike". The Chinese demand loyalty to the center. If Martians shake the center will the provinces pretend that there is a center and simply carry on? Or will they try and elect a new central leader. And will that central leader have to "consolidate" like every Chinese leader seems to do?

Who is number 2? If Beijing cannot provide number 2 because of Martian attack, is there a leader in the "wings'

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 10:31

TKiran wrote:Shiv sir, there's no dearth of leadership as almost half the population (Han) are party guys, they talk like Eleven. So someone surviving will take the leadership,

In China if you don't talk like Eleven you will be fckued. If eleven is elevated to houriland (or "indisposed") will everyone still talk like Eleven?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Schmidt » 03 Aug 2017 10:33

BajKhedawal wrote:Whats with dick-tators and fancy dress costumes, as far as i know eleven jinns is not a serving gent and yet yesterday he wore some camouflage costume and rode a open jeep with his minions army parading behind.

Image

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why does Xi Jin have a permanent constipated look on his face - either that or he has a danda up his a$$ ( literally )

May be we should send over a box of laxatives , that might solve his problem and make him give up the hegemonic attitude towards all their neighbours

And he seems to have put on quite a bit of weight as well , his face looks so pudgy

Believe me , getting fat on Chinese diet is quite a feat

Must be all that Peking duck

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 11:05

if 4 nuclear bombs went off in Beijing - ensuring much loss of life and definite destruction of CPC symbols like the great hall of the people.

No need for new thread because there is no need for 4 nukes. One truckload of Top-Grade Made In China human-dung mixed with fuel oil delivered by Xinjian/FalunGong/TibetanSplittists/TianAnMenGrudge will do the job. (Poo Bum).

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kittoo » 03 Aug 2017 11:12

One poochh from the gurus. Why does chinese leadership talk in this weird bombastic way? Like "we will build a wall of iron", "mountains will move", "crush it with superior will" and shit? Even for normal things. Is it normal for a regular chinese to talk like that or is it only the leadership? Or is it more a communist trait?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ricky_v » 03 Aug 2017 11:34

The Martians should target Beijing,Shanghai, tianjin and chongqinq to really rattle the lizards as it is usually governors of these cities that get a seat in the inner committees of 25 & 9 standing members. If you speak politically, eleven has his base in chongqing city and Shandong province, and he had been shoring up his support by the recent axing of Sun something and the earlier of bo xillai. The vice president is usually the parallel power centre, the current one has the support of hu jintao and the turpan group.

Also in the previous committee that is due to be changed now has an anti corruption chief/whip who is also quite powerful but is due for retirement as he is nearing 68 years.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 11:44

shiv wrote:
TKiran wrote:Shiv sir, there's no dearth of leadership as almost half the population (Han) are party guys, they talk like Eleven. So someone surviving will take the leadership,

In China if you don't talk like Eleven you will be fckued. If eleven is elevated to houriland (or "indisposed") will everyone still talk like Eleven?

Sir, it's the other way round, as far as Han thinking is. They have "Tian Xia" syndrome and the terms "zhongnanhai", "Middle Kingdom" etc are embedded into their psyche. Eleven happened to be one amongst them, with maximum opportunity to get to the top. This thinking is from bottom to top, not the other way round. Don't get fooled by thinking that it was all from top, and every one follows, as in any other commie country. SS sir beautifully put it in other post. CPC is just a political camouflage, they have Han superiority imbibed into themselves. (Han have almost established their superiority in yellow race, through deception, intimidation and false victimhood, only remaining foe is USA) Fortunately, their strategy worked out for atleast 6 decades (their strategy in one word is "deception").

This is the first time they got any resistance.

In dharmic explanation, it's like someone (India) stopping the "Aswamedha yagam" of Han. They may try intimidation as a technique, but ultimately fight they have to, and their defeat is certain.
Last edited by TKiran on 03 Aug 2017 12:06, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby asgkhan » 03 Aug 2017 11:46

http://en.people.cn/n3/2017/0801/c90000-9249678.html

Most of the comments are by the led lips 50 centers association of lil dick chicom monkeys.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 03 Aug 2017 11:49

http://zeenews.india.com/india/china-pl ... 29656.html
China planting misinformation: Defence expert on Beijing's claims on Indian troops
India rebutted China claims, saying that there has been no reduction in the number of Indian troops along the disputed Doklam Plateau.
New Delhi: With China claiming that the number of Indian border troops has considerably reduced along the disputed Doklam Plateau, defence expert PK Sehgal on Thursday accused Beijing of planting misinformation to impress the citizens of their country.
"The entire world knows that China is the master in planting false information. It`s also very clear that China shares border with 14 countries and has some or the other dispute with each of them. They gave the statement just to impress the people of their own country," Sehgal told ANI.
He said that China is making such statements just to inform the citizen of their country that they have succeeded in controlling India, but Indians have also made it clear that we are standing tall on this issue.
"China just wants to showcase its power to the world and make them believe that they are not scared of any country," he said.
Earlier, India rebutted China claims, saying that there has been no reduction in the number of Indian troops along the disputed Doklam Plateau, where Indian and Chinese soldiers have been involved in a stand-off.
The document released by the Chinese media claimed that 270 Indian soldiers crossed into the plateau which China considers its own, on June 16.
However, as of the end of July, there were still over 40 Indian border troops staying in `Chinese territory`.
....

Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Aug 2017 12:21

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .

Bring it on. We are waiting and have some scores to settle with.

But, it is not coming.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Aug 2017 12:31

UlanBatori wrote:If I were he I would not only get into camo uniform I would head for my cave in Mongolia.

He was of course in Mongolia, Inner Mongolia that is, where he reviewed the PLA !!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby niran » 03 Aug 2017 12:36

kittoo wrote:One poochh from the gurus. Why does chinese leadership talk in this weird bombastic way? Like "we will build a wall of iron", "mountains will move", "crush it with superior will" and shit? Even for normal things. Is it normal for a regular chinese to talk like that or is it only the leadership? Or is it more a communist trait?

google the word "Megalomaniac"

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pratyush » 03 Aug 2017 13:21

Or in adequacy in certain areas.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 03 Aug 2017 13:27

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .


yesterday, eithr CCtv or peopledaily had a statement .

that is almost the Ultimatum,as i understand.

and, china transported lots of blood to Lhasa last weak.

:rotfl: For the 12 thousands Modern Liberating Army in Occupied Tibet, poor Indians have deployed 150 thousand troops. You might as well tell them to take all the bottles of blood back. There is no point in feeding blood to who are already dead. We will make sure the war is not limited.

And regarding the threat... let me go all taller than ocean Paki slave on you. India will nuke your capital, as soon as your first conventional rocket hits Indian soil. We will go down, but will take you with us.

How's that for threat? :D

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 14:02

Brahma Chellaney @Chellaney
·
2h
China needs India's help to save face but India must ensure China comes out a loser from its Doklam aggression so as to stop more incursions

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 5264789505

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 14:31

ricky_v wrote:The Martians should target Beijing,Shanghai, tianjin and chongqinq to really rattle the lizards as it is usually governors of these cities that get a seat in the inner committees of 25 & 9 standing members. If you speak politically, eleven has his base in chongqing city and Shandong province, and he had been shoring up his support by the recent axing of Sun something and the earlier of bo xillai. The vice president is usually the parallel power centre, the current one has the support of hu jintao and the turpan group.

Also in the previous committee that is due to be changed now has an anti corruption chief/whip who is also quite powerful but is due for retirement as he is nearing 68 years.

aha. Interesting

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 14:33

TKiran wrote:"Middle Kingdom" etc are embedded into their psyche. Eleven happened to be one amongst them, with maximum opportunity to get to the top. This thinking is from bottom to top, not the other way round. Don't get fooled by thinking that it was all from top, and every one follows, as in any other commie country..

We have an entire thread - the Chinese psyche thread where people who seem to know have said exactly the opposite of what you are saying

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kanson » 03 Aug 2017 15:50

SSridhar wrote:
Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .

Bring it on. We are waiting and have some scores to settle with.


When a bully is keeping his silence even after hearing war drum from other side, it means he is weighing where to attach or what to attack.

When a warrior of Arjuna's calibre is keeping his silence, it means he is waiting becoz his target is somewhere else and anything else is a distraction or merely a side show.

In the epic, Arjuna is spoken, depicted always in company of Krishna.

Krishna never does anything on his own, if he is stepping forward that means game is afoot.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 15:51

Chinese recruitment video with translation
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/893052808563380225

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 03 Aug 2017 16:10

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:yeah but in case of cheen the alternates are likely to be as warlike as the current incumbent. there is no 'gandhian' dissident around - such people are in exile, jail or dead. the party makes sure of that.
in a nest of raptors, if the king raptor is retired, who climbs to control the heap? the next most fierce and ruthless!

this is same as islamic societies finding leaders.

That is a general statement that the others are "warlike". The Chinese demand loyalty to the center. If Martians shake the center will the provinces pretend that there is a center and simply carry on? Or will they try and elect a new central leader. And will that central leader have to "consolidate" like every Chinese leader seems to do?

Who is number 2? If Beijing cannot provide number 2 because of Martian attack, is there a leader in the "wings'


Is your question that in a centralised empire and authoritarian state such as China, what constitute the head (Is it a city such as Beijing, top Commie leadership or top PLA brass)? What is the size and contour of the head that needs to be chopped for the organism to be paralized and disintegrate?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kanson » 03 Aug 2017 16:11

TKiran wrote:Brahma Chellaney @Chellaney
·
2h
China needs India's help to save face but India must ensure China comes out a loser from its Doklam aggression so as to stop more incursions

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chellaney/st ... 5264789505

Brahma Chellaney sir,
It mighty be hard for anyone to even appreciate the notion, that too if it is against China or US, that India is making most use of an opportunity that presented itself on a platter

July next year sir, even if they want to end the stand off. Looking at the itinerary, no let goes.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 16:41

shiv wrote:
TKiran wrote:"Middle Kingdom" etc are embedded into their psyche. Eleven happened to be one amongst them, with maximum opportunity to get to the top. This thinking is from bottom to top, not the other way round. Don't get fooled by thinking that it was all from top, and every one follows, as in any other commie country..

We have an entire thread - the Chinese psyche thread where people who seem to know have said exactly the opposite of what you are saying


Sir, there are two different Chinas, one is Han China, the other is geographical China.

The Han are 99% of China population. They live in 45% geographical China. Tibet is 25% of geographical China, Tibetans​ are 0.5% of geographical China population. The population of Tibet is so insignificant that the Han thought they could be cooked. But no, everyone of Tibetans is against the occupation of Han.

This is the reason why I say what I said. Now I will explain how the above explanation is very important.

The minority in China is so insignificant in population that the Han practically ignore them.but they are the residents of the remaining 55% of the land mass of geographical China.

For outsiders like us, it's very tempting to assume that the 55% of China is different to 45%. Because we confuse the geographical China is nothing but Han China. Certainly if 55% of China doesn't agree with 45% your argument is correct, China is not uniform and the Chinese are towing the line of their leader, if they don't, they will be killed.

Even though they are encouraging the Han to overwhelm the Tibetans and Uyghurs, Han are not able to do that.

But when it comes to the thought process in Han core China, it's all from bottom to top the same. They are highly racist, they are superior to other yellow races. Their only enemy left is USA.

When I was arguing with Han, I said "you have flawed political system, communism is not good, you need democracy" the laughed their a$$es off, saying, "who said CPC is communist party of China? It's capitalistic party of China. We are more capitalistic than USA. We have beaten them in their own game. Capitalism is derogatory meaning "crooked". That's the reason why we have not changed the CPC name".

Now do you understand what I was trying to convey? I still think SS sir also said the same thing as I said, but if he was not agreeing to what I said, then I will change my point of view and try to get more gyan before I start saying anything about Hans.(ofcourse my knowledge of China is very limited to the extent of meeting ordinary Hans living in core China onlee)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 03 Aug 2017 17:18

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .


yesterday, eithr CCtv or peopledaily had a statement .

that is almost the Ultimatum,as i understand.

and, china transported lots of blood to Lhasa last weak.

Why so? I thought they have prison in Lhasa as well.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 03 Aug 2017 17:22

Today SushmaJi is going to give a statement in Rajya Sabha about the Doklam Standoff. Stay tuned

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 03 Aug 2017 17:46

Our resident 50-center came out and declared war is imminent?

Oh yeah, a good sign.

When it begins, the breakthrough against chini lines will be so quick and thorough that people will be stunned.

Years of dhoti shaking on our side and arrogance (and geography and geopolitics) on theirs have left us with massive numercial advantages everywhere on the border. People have no idea how dominant we are. 20-1 on manpower. 300 to 24 in fighter aircraft.

It will be a hammer against eggshell. It is a foregone conclusion.

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Re: Globalism & Nationalism in China Part I

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 17:53

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote:Xi Jin Ping is transforming China from Communist China to nationalist China using Doklam Chu incident.

This is the reverse globalism movement in China.

ramana, forgive me for a little meandering type of response.

I believe that the concept of globalism and nationalism are intertwined in the Chinese culture for two millennia, ever since Confucius appeared on the scene. The line between the two is blurred. Also, the more I think and read about China, the more I am convinced that Communist China is as imperialistic as its 2500-year old predecessors. I will explain these below.

The triple concepts of the Chinese Emperor being the 'Son of the Heaven' (tianzi) to rule the 'Middle Kingdom' (zhongguo) and be responsible for everything under the Heaven (tianxia) have to be kept in the back of mind always to understand Chinese behaviour. As I said earlier, in another context, the Cultural revolution of Mao which wanted to throw away all old practices and ideas labelling them as 'counter-revolutionary' did not or could not do so to these triple concepts. The CPC and the Politburo have practised these meticulously.

Globalism does not eschew national boundaries or nationalism. China would argue that their setting up of AIIB or their formulation of Belt & Road Initiative are indeed truly global in nature. In fact, no such catch-phrase as 'globalism' is without some narrow intentions of one or a few, either. Chinese have always claimed that their empire (the Qing or the Manchus dynasty which had the largest territory and closest to what exists today) ruled over everyone with very benign intentions and only in order to civilize the 'barbarians'. History proves otherwise. Chinese scholars pick and choose 'convenient positions' to buttress their 'carefully formulated historical perspective'. An example is their claim that Zheng He, the eunuch naval commander of the Ming dynasty, was only doing commerce, spreading Chinese culture and educating the barbarians and civilizing them is pathetically false. Historically, the Chinese Emperors have demanded deference and subservience to the Emperor and the Court in order for nations to enjoy 'stability & prosperity'. In Chinese view, such tributary is a small price for patronage from the Middle Kingdom. That is why the Chinese naval commander said at the commissioning ceremony of the Djibouti base yesterday that it was because of "friendly negotiations, and accords with the common interest of the people from both sides".

The remarkable point is the continuum of this idea, among the Chinese Emperors, of Chinese lordship over large sections of Asia, whether they were Han or Mongols(Yuan) or Manchus(Qing). The present-day Emperor, Xi, has been calling for the Asians to rule Asia but this is not even regionalism, let alone globalism, because this is a thinly veiled demand for China to rule Asia; but, the Chinese scholars want to fool everyone into believing that they have a generous, liberal mind. Xi proclaims that BRI is for the 'common destiny & common prosperity' of all people in Asia, Eurasia and Africa. But, that is only to establish Chinese hegemony everywhere and for China to well and truly become the 'Middle Kingdom'. That mindset is the same as that of the Emperors of the various dynasties. During Imperial days, the Chinese might not have been largely aware of far-away places or have had means to establish their suzerainty. They were more limited to Central Asia, Vietnam (Annam), Champa, Sri Vijaya et al. But, the new Chinese Emperor, Xi Jinping, has the means, ambition and the clout to rule far, far away.

Regionalism or globalism, from the Chinese perspective, is that China, as the Middle Kingdom, must be the sole pivot. It brooks no competition to this core idea. This is why I say that globalism and nationalism, oxymoronic as they may sound, are inseparable in Chinese folklore. We can apply various filters such as Thucydides Trap or Heartland Vs. Rimland etc to fit the Chinese challenge into known theories. They may well be true as well but the core idea must be understood. That's why, IMHO, China would be permanently inimical to us because we are not only its sole potential challenger but also our rectitude frustrates China which finds it impossible to ride roughshod over us. The hilarious statements that come from various Chinese quarters are a result of this frustration. During the Ming & Qing dynasties, Annam (as Vietnam was known then) posed a similar challenge to the Chinese. The Vietnamese took a leaf from the Chinese theory of 'zhonhgguo' a step further and said that if China was the Middle Kingdom, it was only for the Northern Hemisphere and the Vietnamese were the Middle Kingdom for the Southern Hemisphere !!

While the nationalist feelings largely remained suppressed during the days of Mao and Chou, as they concentrated on internal dynamics, they were resurrected during Deng Xiaoping’s rule when reform processes were introduced. Since then, nationalism, and that too against Japan, has been a hallmark of the Chinese milieu. When the Qing dynasty collapsed and Sun-yat-Sen became the President in c. 1912, he said that one of the reasons that various colonial powers had bullied the Chinese in the past was because the Chinese lacked a strong sense of nation. He described the Manchus, Uyghurs, Tibetans and the Mongols as alien and said that only the Han Chinese, descendants of the great Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, were true sons of the soil.

From Mao's days, every Chinese President has tightly controlled 'nationalism' in China, unleashing a carefully scripted spectacle of 'nationalism' at appropriately suitable times. These have been largely against the USSR (Mao), Japan (Deng, Hu Jintao, Xi), US (Mao, Jiang Zemin, Xi), Russia (Xi). Just before his first foreign trip, which incidentally was to Moscow, Xi let loose a virulent anti-Russia protest against a much-besieged Russia which desperately needed Chinese friendship, a classic psy-ops. Nowadays, Japan is the favourite target for Chinese nationalism. China claims that its largest loss of territory is to Russia (Eastern Siberia), followed by India and then, Kazakhastan. Of course, it also claims, east to west, Japan to Bhutan & Sikkim because they were all its tributaries once. Some sense of transplanting a long, long bygone era into present circumstances. Unfortunately, this sense of history and entitlement is prevalent among all the Hans due to indoctrination.

Compared to the nationalistic feelings against the 'usual countries' namely Russia, US and Japan, I don't think that Doka La generates so much resonance within China, even by design, at this point. The CPC can change all that quickly if it wants, but it has not happened. Global Times, Peoples Daily, Tsinghua University scholars are another matter and they are always there. Shrill voices from these sources are not the barometer of raising feverish nationalism, IMHO.


This is what SS sir said, I didn't say anything different

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 18:15

TKiran wrote:For outsiders like us, it's very tempting to assume that the 55% of China is different to 45%. Because we confuse the geographical China is nothing but Han China. Certainly if 55% of China doesn't agree with 45% your argument is correct, China is not uniform and the Chinese are towing the line of their leader, if they don't, they will be killed.

No Kiran I am not confusing geographical area with population. Threr are only 3-4 million Tibetans and over 1 billion Hans. What you are saying has nothing to do with bottom up

You were missing from the entire Chinese psyche thread which was pretty clear and informative. The Chinese respects the bully. The bigger the bully the more respect he gets. Hans do not feel sorry for the underdog and will always support the top dog and this has been so throughout their history. That is how so many Chinese can be killed - because in Han eyes they deserve to be killed. Strong emperors were always the top dog in the Past and the CPC is top dog now. The Chinese say they are more capitalistic than the US because capitalism is winner takes all. It is not democracy. Democracy merely regulates capitalism. Capitalism is not a natural follow on of democracy. Communist rule is only nominally bottom up. But it is effectively top down because anyone who threats communist dogma is eliminated. And if the the Commie top dog is a capitalist he will not give a rats ass for anyone else. In China this means that wealth and influence sit in the communist party. Other Hans will follow the top dog as long as their basic interests are looked after. They will not go after dog number 2 because of reasons like "he is more democratic", "he supports gay rights"Communism itself prevents alternate politics and awards tight top-down control

The CPC is the top dog and its supreme leader has to show his influence over everyone else and control the PLA who must be loyal to him. Everyone has to be loyal to that. they have no choice. Nothing bottom up about that.

The top dog cannot be seen as weak and vulnerable. No Han feels sorry for weak and vulnerable people. Some other dog will take over.

I am NOT asking if China will collapse. I am not asking if people will rise up in rebellion. All I am asking is, if the top order in beijing are shown up as vulnerable by 4 nukes falling on Beijing and devastating the capital what is the degree of "inward looking" the Chinese are likely to do to replace the vulnerable leader with a strong one who can kick the Martians who nuked them. The Chinese have never ever shown allegiance to weak and vulnerable leaders who are kind hearted and humane. The are looking for a strong hand to handle Han unity. Han unity needs a strong hand - by themselves the Hans will not democratically organize into groups that cooperate and help the needy and blind and hold back the wicked.

There is an important corollary to this question.

if the supreme leader is shown as being weak, Hans do not organize to make him strong again. they simply follow a different Han leader who appears stronger. If that statement is true it will mean that the supreme leader will be risking his own leadership if he gets into a war that he cannot decisively win. Can a Chinese supreme leader decisively win a war where his own capital city (and maybe other cities) are devastated by Martian nukes.

For example - if the Chinese blow up Mars in revenge - will they look at that as victory even though their leader has failed to protect his own capital?
Last edited by shiv on 03 Aug 2017 18:22, edited 1 time in total.

chola
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 03 Aug 2017 18:19

If you nuke their capital, they will nuke yours. That's pretty simple. All this psychological pseudo-science just gets in the way of evaluating common sense response.

1. Cheen is SYRE. Not warlike, will not fight to death over honor like Japs or Viets when we think of Orientals,

2. As with even the most agricultural/shopkeeping human, they will fight if it is life and death,

3. Take maximum advantage up to life/death point of inflection: therefore, we retake everything from 1962 and then maybe a bit more we can safely limit war; everything between Lhasa and Beijing bring verying degrees of possibility for total war and finally nuclear war.
Last edited by chola on 03 Aug 2017 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 18:23

chola wrote:If you nuke their capital, they will nuke yours. That's pretty simple.

Thanks. But you did not read the original question.

It was Martians who nuked them. If they nuke Mars back, will they still follow the same leader and call him victor when his own seat of power has been devastated.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 18:27

I chose Martians as the guilty party in putting 4 nukes on Beijing because everyone will come up with Chola's answer and then start worrying about that. But whatever happens in faraway Mars, the question is how China will react politically and internally to a devastated Beijing.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 18:42

Shiv sir, I am more confused now.

So you are saying "the thought process of Han is not bottoms​up. It's top down."

But my personal experience is that it's bottomsup. The reason why there is no yawning for "democracy" in Han China is because they have been indoctrined to tianxia, middle Kingdom etc and not communist thinking. They support CPC wholeheartedly as if the president is democratically elected. (Eleven or anybody else elected by politburo is supported by entire Han àla NaMo is supported by Hindus). In fact, a democratically elected leaders can't get 99% of support, at the maximum a 51% support as there is space to be left for opposition. (In fact the Han feel that their political system is more coherent than democracy)

But you are saying, Han are like that because of their leadership.,

OK, as I don't have too much of supporting materials to offer other than my own biases, I will keep my eyes and ears open to observe if really China is top down political system, and be careful not to make declarative statements because of my bias about Chinese political system.
Last edited by TKiran on 03 Aug 2017 18:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 18:44

The Communist Party's hold over China looks pretty solid. CPC membership is about 85-88 million right now. Entrance into the CPC is as difficult as getting into an Ivy League University in the US e.g. of 22 million applicants last year, they only took in ~2 million. And to even become a formal applicant, you have to be nominated. To become anybody in China you have to be a member of the CPC. They control the Government, government owned companies and even private sector companies stipulate that new hires be party members because that will place the private sector company in a favorable position with the Government.

Xi Jinping's father who was a senior party big wig was ousted and arrested during the Cultural Revolution and Xi when he was 15 years old was sent to work in some other location after he lost the protection of his father. After the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution were over, Xi's life came back on track and he studied Chemical Engineering from the age of 22-27, pretty late in life by Indian standards. His father never ever got his life back on track. But even after this tumultuous start to his young life, Xi's faith in the Party never wavered and he clawed his way to the top.

There are millions of such people in the CPC who view the CPC as their ticket to power and glory. Not going to be easy to shake the party's grip on power in China, even if 4 nukes go off in Beijing. There are 85 million more jostling to fight their way to the top.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 19:02

TKiran wrote:
But you are saying, Han are like that because of their leadership.,

Throughout history the Han have supported and not overthrown the most cruel leaders. The Chinese cheerfully accept the deaths of other Chinese - but I will come to that point in a minute - I will just quote from the Chinese psyche thread.
Why does China emphatically state the 9-dash line and says other's have no right to the resources there? This can be explained by the phrase "Treasuring a jade pendant". A poor peasant found a Jade pendant and kept it to himself. Eventually people found out about it, and he was killed and the pendant taken. But the thief was also killed by another, and so on, till the Jade pendant fell into the hand of somebody strong enough to wear it openly for none dare rob him. So If you have something very valuable, or earned something very valuable, it doesn't automatically become yours. You must have enough strength to defend it, otherwise you might as well give it up to a strong one and save yourself suffering. So just because ICS has oil under the EEZ of Vietnam and Philippines it doesn't belong to them unless they have the strength to repel the Chinese. Otherwise they are like a peasant treasuring a Jade pendant. Easy pickings. The Chinese will accept Arunachal belongs to India when they see demonstrable proof that we can kick their asses back to the Yellow river and more. Otherwise we are a Weak people trying to hold onto something not ours by overreaching our strength. Why is it not ours? Because China is supposedly strong enough to flaunt that Jade pendant.


Mainland people are not stifled and dying for democracy while under the yoke of CPC. Rather, CPC is simply the current emperor to whom they ascribe the Mandate of Heaven.

The emperor MUST show that he's strong, in charge, has big brass testimonials the size of jackfruits , etc. Any cute 'pehle aap' politeness is pansy wimp behavior that will see the emperor dangling from a tree, like the Chongzhen Emperor - the last Ming ruler - did (he ran from the Imperial Palace and hung himself in the garden as the Manchus overran Beijing. That tree used to be around until they cut it down during CR).

China will never seek a mutually respectful solution to anything or anybody. It will either dominate, or show respectful deference. Anyone notionally equal or potentially capable of equality is someone to be hampered and sabotaged by any and all means necessary. If they're not doing anything actively, it's not that they've agreed to status quo, but that they're biding their time for better circumstances for themselves.

To seek status quo with China is stupid. Their mindset never favors status quo. They always seek even marginal gains that will accumulate in their favor long term.


About Chinese deaths. If we kill Tibetans, Chinese won't care. If we kill people in Chengdu and Yunnan the Chinese wont bother much. Kill them in Beijing, close to their center of power and that is more likely to cause political instability. So a Chinese leader must be ready to retain power even if Beijing is nuked. Are Chinese leaders ready for that? Is Eleven ready for that?
Last edited by shiv on 03 Aug 2017 19:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 19:05

ldev wrote:There are millions of such people in the CPC who view the CPC as their ticket to power and glory. Not going to be easy to shake the party's grip on power in China, even if 4 nukes go off in Beijing. There are 85 million more jostling to fight their way to the top.

Too many people are interpreting my question as a fond hope of removing communism or collapsing China - both of which are a load of crock not worth considering.

The CPC is always led by ONE MAN. That one man has to consolidate and hold power. For this he has to be ruthless and appear strong. What will happen if his center of power is devastated? Will he still hold on to power and appear strong in a China that always back the top dog?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby prahaar » 03 Aug 2017 19:11

ldev wrote:The Communist Party's hold over China looks pretty solid. CPC membership is about 85-88 million right now. Entrance into the CPC is as difficult as getting into an Ivy League University in the US e.g. of 22 million applicants last year, they only took in ~2 million. And to even become a formal applicant, you have to be nominated. To become anybody in China you have to be a member of the CPC. They control the Government, government owned companies and even private sector companies stipulate that new hires be party members because that will place the private sector company in a favorable position with the Government.

Xi Jinping's father who was a senior party big wig was ousted and arrested during the Cultural Revolution and Xi when he was 15 years old was sent to work in some other location after he lost the protection of his father. After the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution were over, Xi's life came back on track and he studied Chemical Engineering from the age of 22-27, pretty late in life by Indian standards. His father never ever got his life back on track. But even after this tumultuous start to his young life, Xi's faith in the Party never wavered and he clawed his way to the top.

There are millions of such people in the CPC who view the CPC as their ticket to power and glory. Not going to be easy to shake the party's grip on power in China, even if 4 nukes go off in Beijing. There are 85 million more jostling to fight their way to the top.


This is going into political aspects of China, so tempted to give a political analogy from India. INC when it was dominant compelled all sorts of people who did not identify with Congress principles to join INC, just because there was no other alternative. Jinnah/Savarkar/Hedgewar/Gandhi were all part of THE party. Within a couple of decades we all know how all that fell apart.


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