Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 19:19

shiv wrote:
The CPC is always led by ONE MAN. That one man has to consolidate and hold power. For this he has to be ruthless and appear strong. What will happen if his center of power is devastated? Will he still hold on to power and appear strong in a China that always back the top dog?


CPC has not always been about ONE powerful man. After Deng departed the leadership and therefore during the Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao times, almost 20 years, the Standing Committee of the Politburu (7-9 people) acted as a collective leadership with decisions taken by consensus and if no consensus was reached then by a formal vote. It is only under Xi now that the leadership role has again become almost as centralized as it was under Deng and before that Mao.
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shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 19:20

So what will happen to Xi if Martians nuke Beijing?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 19:22

shiv wrote:So what will happen to Xi if Martians nuke Beijing?


I think at this specific point in time with Xi amassing power for himself and ousting rival power centers, the CPC is at it's most vulnerable in the last 30 years. But frankly 4 nukes on Beijing is not going to cut it. You are going to have to deliver 400 nukes all over China to achieve that.

As has been stated many times on this thread and others, the Chinese only respect power. That is what India has to have, raw power on a massive scale. That is the only thing that will deter China in the long term. If they have 1200 conventional ballistic missiles, and 300 cruise missiles, India has to have an equivalent inventory. If they can devastate the Indian heartland with stand off conventional missiles, then India should be able to inflict equivalent punishment on them. They do not believe in the concept of a trip wire. India has to get out of this mentality of having 36 Rafales and 50 Agni missiles and 3-6 of the Project 75 boats etc. A build up has to be on a scale which is multiple times that which will take any war that starts to their homeland whether it's a conventional or nuclear war.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 03 Aug 2017 19:27

^^^Among the Chinese there is a saying... something to the effect of "is it boiling water or boiling oil?" :mrgreen:

Boiling water is frothy on the outside but rather calm and still inside...
Boiling oil is very calm on the outside but very frothy and churning inside...

The former is India, the latter is China ~ this comes across in many personal interactions and Bollywood dances as well... :P
My two RMB: The current Chinese dispensation is neither top-down or bottom-up ~ it is a gang of bandits (large one) who can elect a chief...
The key question is does XI deserve the same pedigree and title of Chairman Mao or is he a lesser denizen of the Middle Kingdom Bandits Associaltion.
That is all is being kicked around... Eleven gin "Whose ur daddy" Peg wants to be remembered as more than Fat "littleboy" Kim! :P

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 19:40

Pulikeshi wrote: Middle Kingdom Bandits Associaltion.
... Eleven gin "Whose ur daddy" Peg wants to be remembered as more than Fat "littleboy" Kim! :P

:rotfl:

Great phrases, very nice!!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sudhan » 03 Aug 2017 19:44

If Xi survives the attack, he would declare victory saying the Martians have been soundly defeated and chased away by the PLA for good. Clearly the world needs the CPC!..

But..

If the Martians return to deliver another hiding after Xi's declaration of victory, then Xi will most definitely be retired, declared enemy of the revolution, replaced and re-educated vigorously never to be seen again. The CPC IMO would still continue to hold sway over whatever remains of PRC..

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 19:45

shiv wrote:
The CPC is always led by ONE MAN. That one man has to consolidate and hold power. For this he has to be ruthless and appear strong. What will happen if his center of power is devastated? Will he still hold on to power and appear strong in a China that always back the top dog?


CPC head (One Man) is only a figure, he is guided by Han idealogy (of tianxia), not communism. Yes, the One Man has to consolidate and hold power as that is the requirement to be there. There are any number of people who can fill that space if he is incapacitated. If he is not incapacitated, he would be able to fulfill his duties as he would have been trained to be that kind of leader for atleast 40 years and proven track record of such capabilities.

His centre of power can't be devastated as the centre of power is intangible. It's the Han idealogy that is the centre of power. There's no other center.

In one sentence, the whole power to the leadership comes from Han and they are 99%of the population. So there's no internal threat to tianxia, only when they get a thappad, they will start thinking (rather questioning) if their ideology was correct or not. In other words, Martians can't defeat Chinese leadership even if Beijing is nuked, but only Indians can bring a humiliating defeat, but still the political system in China will survive albeit humiliated.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Aug 2017 20:20

This story of tian kian dreams can be finished forever:
Image

We just need to point Agonies 3 & 5 towards densest population areas, with dirtiest warheads containing cobalt 60 / cesium 137 / gold isotope, so these core Han areas die miserably writhing most painfully

Incidentally these are also the factory of the world areas. Rest peripheral areas can be left locals will skin Han bullies alive.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 20:26

ldev wrote:
shiv wrote:So what will happen to Xi if Martians nuke Beijing?


I think at this specific point in time with Xi amassing power for himself and ousting rival power centers, the CPC is at it's most vulnerable in the last 30 years. But frankly 4 nukes on Beijing is not going to cut it. You are going to have to deliver 400 nukes all over China to achieve that.

Dropping 100s of nukes on anyone will take them down. That does not require repeating.

But in answer to the specific question I asked, your answer seems to be that 4 nukes on Beijing will do nothing to Xi Jinping. Fair enough. I accept that as one answer.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 20:30

TKiran wrote:CPC head (One Man) is only a figure, he is guided by Han idealogy (of tianxia), not communism. Yes, the One Man has to consolidate and hold power as that is the requirement to be there. There are any number of people who can fill that space if he is incapacitated. If he is not incapacitated, he would be able to fulfill his duties as he would have been trained to be that kind of leader for atleast 40 years and proven track record of such capabilities.

His centre of power can't be devastated as the centre of power is intangible. It's the Han idealogy that is the centre of power. There's no other center.

Again - a misunderstanding of my question. This is not about communism. And it is not about collapsing the communist party. Or collapsing China

What will happen to Xi Jinping if Martians drop 4 nukes on Beijing. it is easier if you simply say
1. nothing will happen to him
or
2. something that he does not want will happen to him

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Aug 2017 20:32

shiv wrote:
TKiran wrote:"Middle Kingdom" etc are embedded into their psyche. Eleven happened to be one amongst them, with maximum opportunity to get to the top. This thinking is from bottom to top, not the other way round. Don't get fooled by thinking that it was all from top, and every one follows, as in any other commie country..

We have an entire thread - the Chinese psyche thread where people who seem to know have said exactly the opposite of what you are saying

I have not spent enough time in the psyche thread. But, I do not agree with the opposite narrative, if there is one.

I do agree with TK that the feeling is all pervasive because the Hans are brainwashed for millennia by the Confucian Knowledge & Practices.

As for the minorities, I had posted a detailed one about a month back here.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SSridhar » 03 Aug 2017 20:34

Organizationally, it is the President/General Secreatry of CPC (both with one person) as the head, assisted by a 7-member Standing Committee (the innermost kitchen cabinet) which is part of the 22-member Politburo (which is the Cabinet).

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 20:48

$60B/yr trade loss is about as good as a nuke, because the PLA Jarnail whose profits get eroded will come after Eleven with steak knife. May be happening already.

If I were Jarnail Wee Dong, looking at huge loss, I would ask at next Poritbulo meeting:
What exactly did Eleven plan to gain from this shoving contest against Bhutanese traffic police?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Iyersan » 03 Aug 2017 20:49

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 2.ece/amp/
There will be 'serious consequences' if India doesn't withdraw troops: Chinese diplomat
The remarks mark a serious escalation in rhetoric over the ongoing tensions between the two countries

India must withdraw its troops on the Doklam plateau or face ''serious consequences'', said a senior Chinese diplomat in New Delhi on Thursday.

The remarks mark a serious escalation in rhetoric over the ongoing tensions between the two countries, as their armies continue a six-week long stand-off near the India-Bhutan-China trijunction off Sikkim.

“The crossing of the boundary line by Indian troops into the territory of China using the pretext of security concerns for a 3rd party [Bhutan] is illegal,” Chinese Deputy Chief of Mission Liu Jinsong told journalists. “The troops should be withdrawn immediately, otherwise there will be serious consequences,” he said.

While refusing to elaborate on what the “consequences” would be, he said India's action at Doklam was akin to “intruding into your neighbours house, and demanding that the neighbour leave to ensure your withdrawal.” He quoted Chinese President Xi Jinping's obervation, “Military option is the fundamental guarantor of sovereignty.”

The comments, the sharpest Chinese statement yet, follows India’s rejection of the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs’ 15-page position statement that was published on Wednesday. It had claimed that the number of Indian troops on the part of the Doklam plateau, contested between China and Bhutan, had reduced from 400 to “over 40”.

Indian government sources, however, had said that there was no reduction in Indian troops.

Repeating the charge, Mr. Liu said that as of Thursday, the Chinese Army had counted exactly 48 Indian soldiers. “Even one Indian soldier violating Chinese sovereignty is too many,” he continued, “We cannot bear that for another hour, another day, and they must be pulled out immediately.”

Chinese troops had notified India of their intention to refurbish a road in what it called its own territory on two occasions, on May 18 and June 8, the first time China has shared the specific details. It was “very shocking” for the Chinese side when the Indian troops came over to the disputed territory, he said.

More significantly, Mr. Liu alleged that India had not, as the government had maintained, come to the rescue of Bhutanese troops in the area.

When asked by The Hindu whether China was embarrassed by the Bhutan Foreign Ministry statement of June 30 that said the Chinese road construction activity was in “direct violation” of previous agreements, Mr. Liu said, “From the Bhutanese statement, nothing reflects that the Bhutanese side invited or knew before hand that India would send troops. Even if we accept a difference of view between China and Bhutan, we have many mechanisms to resolve them bilaterally.”

Bhutan’s Ambassador to India V. Namgyal told The Hindu he would not comment on the remarks by the Chinese envoy, saying that there was “nothing further to add” to the official statement.

When contacted for a response, the Ministry of External Affairs too declined to add to its statement of Wednesday, where it said that “peace and tranquility in the India-China border areas is an important pre-requisite for smooth development of our bilateral relations with China.”

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 03 Aug 2017 20:56

Lol. The "serious consequences" would be China refusing to export us stuff that we are going to boycott anyways.

They will always spin a propaganda "victory." They haven't fought in five decades and it is too much to hope that they will fight today.

No, what we need to do is engage in real war, where victory is real.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bharadwaj » 03 Aug 2017 21:00

Panda is smarter than we think and is well aware of the damage they will incur in a conflict with India of 2017... Hence the noise is getting louder. I am not sure if the their internal wranglings have a role to play in this anymore. They are probably looking for a way out without permanent damage on the world stage.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 21:04

If one is hoping that a major event such as 4 nukes on Beijing is going to loosen the Central Leadership, it is educational to look back to the period from 1927 to 1945. The Kuomintang (KMT) Nationalist Party led by Chang Kai-Shek was in a civil war with the newly established Chinese Communist Party. That Civil war lasted from 1927 to 1937. When Japan invaded China in 1937 the two opposing sides in the Civil War came together to fight the external enemy, Japan. When the Sino-Japan war ended in 1945 with the defeat of Japan in WW2, the two sides resumed hostilities with the KMT eventually thrown out across the Taiwan Straits.

So there is a deeper Han ideology holding China together and it pulls the country together when facing external threats.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 21:15

Trying to imagine the lizard-brain side of this. So they wanted to reach the southern ridge, which they could breach in a hurry and bring tanks through into the Chicken Neck area. Or are there minerals to extract from the plateau itself? They claim that they informed India of intention to extend road, but considering that they were illegally there in the first place as Bhutan confirms, I see no value in that claim. So we must conclude that they had no interest in the road, just in creating a ruckus. Objectives are elsewhere.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Aug 2017 21:18

Last year there was the happiest news for me, actually 2 of them 1 from CAG :

1. While other indigenous plat forms have big percentage of import, the indigenous missiles are 100% made in Bharat. As 1 Agni costs 50 crores 4 thousand will cost 2 lakh crores, creating jobs here plus money will go back in Bharat. Not France Sweden USA or Russia.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 21:18

If there is war I wonder if India is willing to really put serious resources into kicking the Chinese out of Tibet and Aksai Chin, and clearing the Brahmaputra all the way past the big dam. Like I said, Hannistan ends at 100 deg.E. Longitude.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 21:20

I think this Chinese threat at the border has thrown into sharp focus India's lack of a cohesive strategy to identify, nurture ,focus and apply the concept of "national strength" to serve the interests of India's national security. National strength flows from economic strength which in turn depends on the size, dynamism and innovative capacity of the economy. And this in turn leads to military strength.

Today the IAF and IN identify their area of interest as from the Malacca Straits to the Persian Gulf. But in this area today the PLAN is making increasing inroads. To deter China requires an Indian military presence in East Asia and in the waters off China. That kind of definition is not going to come from the forces, it has to come from India's national security apparatus in coordination with MOD. But the MOD is so moribund that it cannot even properly control and manage the existing infrastructure let alone define a security architecture for India.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 21:23

ldev wrote:If one is hoping that a major event such as 4 nukes on Beijing is going to loosen the Central Leadership, it is educational to look back to the period from 1927 to 1945. The Kuomintang (KMT) Nationalist Party led by Chang Kai-Shek was in a civil war with the newly established Chinese Communist Party. That Civil war lasted from 1927 to 1937. When Japan invaded China in 1937 the two opposing sides in the Civil War came together to fight the external enemy, Japan. When the Sino-Japan war ended in 1945 with the defeat of Japan in WW2, the two sides resumed hostilities with the KMT eventually thrown out across the Taiwan Straits.

So there is a deeper Han ideology holding China together and it pulls the country together when facing external threats.

Once again my question has nothing to do with breaking up China or the ChiComs. What will happen to Xi Jinping?

This is an important question IF and only IF he is the supreme leader and not the visible face of a bunch of decision makers. If he is supreme leader he is likely to seek to remain in power and show victory after any war even if it means 4 nukes on Beijing (dropped by Martians)

It is anyone's viewpoint that Xi Jinping's personal power will likely remain untouched by 4 nukes on Beijing?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 21:31

4 nukes on Beijing? At about 7 they might start noticing it above the present pollution level. BTW (don't laugh) has Bhutan filed a complaint with UN about Chinese aggression? Is Bhutanese UN presence handled by India?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 03 Aug 2017 21:32

I think some of the posters are very liberals with nuclear talk. Both sides are mature and they have Economy at stake. Chinese make noise because they always got what they wanted (without fight). They have to learn to live in real world and they will do so. Chinese dragon has showed its tasty belly to Tiger and cubs are gathering courage to kick the dragon who was shitting in front of den. Singha Saar could put this in better way.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 21:35

rsinghji:

A nuke or 2 or 20 on China would be the dream of billions all over the world. Consider: China has invaded all its neighbors, and keeps encroaching on their territory all the time: they are TERRIBLE neighbors to have. Stinko. Their foreign policy is snake-like. Their business ethics are negative. They steal everything.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 21:38

shiv wrote:Once again my question has nothing to do with breaking up China or the ChiComs. What will happen to Xi Jinping?

This is an important question IF and only IF he is the supreme leader and not the visible face of a bunch of decision makers. If he is supreme leader he is likely to seek to remain in power and show victory after any war even if it means 4 nukes on Beijing (dropped by Martians)

It is anyone's viewpoint that Xi Jinping's personal power will likely remain untouched by 4 nukes on Beijing?


From India's standpoint it does not matter whether Xi Jinping stays in power or not. China's hostility towards India will continue as it has over the last 50+ years with various Chinese leaders coming and going. While internally the Politburo may jostle for power amongst themselves, the collective view towards India does not change. Whether Xi is articulating that view in 2017 or Mao was articulating it in 1962, " a billion Chinese will p*ss from the Himalayas.....", that position will not change.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 03 Aug 2017 21:42

shiv wrote:It is anyone's viewpoint that Xi Jinping's personal power will likely remain untouched by 4 nukes on Beijing?


IMO Xi Jinping's personal power, if he survives, will be augmented by 4 nukes on Beijing. Going by what happened to G W Bush's personal power after 9/11. I know, I know, different societies, different polities, different systems. But I am willing to bet that some dynamics of social and political cohesion are universal in this regard. Rallying around a leader when severe damage is inflicted in the heartland and serious vulnerabilities are exposed in a single sharp attack (though perhaps NOT in a protracted attritive conflict) is one of them.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Austin » 03 Aug 2017 21:44

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/893109475921539074

China-India border conflict heats up: 787 documents from #WikiLeaks archives show the dynamics #DoklamStandof (link: https://search.wikileaks.org/?query=ind ... nt#results) search.wikileaks.org/?query=india+c

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 21:48

rsingh wrote:I think some of the posters are very liberals with nuclear talk. Both sides are mature and they have Economy at stake. Chinese make noise because they always got what they wanted (without fight). They have to learn to live in real world and they will do so.

Nuclear retaliation on India by China remains
1. Among the deepest fears expressed by Indians and a subject that causes most Indians to fill themselves with self doubt an worry
2. When we talk of war we have to be ready to talk of all possible weapons in war - it is only talk after all

I think the deepest fears harboured by Indians needs to be addressed openly and frankly and not avoided.

But I have played a deliberate trick by saying that 4 nukes on Beijing will be dropped by Martians so that Indians do not have to express their deepest worries about the massive retaliation that the topic immediately shifts to.

The purpose (of my question) is to assess the political consequences to Xi Jinping as a result of a nuclear attack on Beijing

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 21:48

ldev wrote:
shiv wrote:Once again my question has nothing to do with breaking up China or the ChiComs. What will happen to Xi Jinping?

This is an important question IF and only IF he is the supreme leader and not the visible face of a bunch of decision makers. If he is supreme leader he is likely to seek to remain in power and show victory after any war even if it means 4 nukes on Beijing (dropped by Martians)

It is anyone's viewpoint that Xi Jinping's personal power will likely remain untouched by 4 nukes on Beijing?


From India's standpoint it does not matter whether Xi Jinping stays in power or not. China's hostility towards India will continue as it has over the last 50+ years with various

Thank you but that was not my question at all.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anjan » 03 Aug 2017 21:54

This war talk is foolish. Both sides have mobilized and any war will be bloody. Our political leadership, while clearly the best our country has to offer, has no national security strategy and not even a full time defense minister. Our bureaucracy is inefficient and incapable, focused on collecting power rather than any serious administration. Our adversary's lack of experience at any recent conflict is the only saving grace. War is coming and it won't be pretty.

Edit: The quality of our senior armed forces leadership is not something to write home about either. The top has been politicized and lack the courage to stand up for their men. At the lowest level our jawans, our YOs and the middle level leadership is the best in the world and will walk through hell before they give an inch. One hopes this is enough.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 21:57

Rudradev wrote:
shiv wrote:It is anyone's viewpoint that Xi Jinping's personal power will likely remain untouched by 4 nukes on Beijing?


IMO Xi Jinping's personal power, if he survives, will be augmented by 4 nukes on Beijing. Going by what happened to G W Bush's personal power after 9/11. I know, I know, different societies, different polities, different systems. But I am willing to bet that some dynamics of social and political cohesion are universal in this regard. Rallying around a leader when severe damage is inflicted in the heartland and serious vulnerabilities are exposed in a single sharp attack (though perhaps NOT in a protracted attritive conflict) is one of them.

Fair enough. That is a very credible analysis.

To put two and two (or my own biases) together I can say 'Although Xi Jinping has had to play hardball to augment his personal status as supreme leader, he will not have to fight to retain that status in case of an isolated nuclear attack on Beijing (by Martians)"

This conclusion goes in the face of opinions expressed in the China threads that the Chinese show no sympathy for people who appear to be losers if there is someone who appears tougher.

Is there someone in China whom Xi has had to sideline or whose power he has had to clip to reach his exalted status? Would that person also be sympathetic to Xi Jinping if the latter's actions lead to nukes on Beijing?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 21:58

anjan wrote:This war talk is foolish.


But the following statement is not foolish?
anjan wrote:Edit: The quality of our senior armed forces leadership is not something to write home about either. The top has been politicized and lack the courage to stand up for their men.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anjan » 03 Aug 2017 22:12

shiv wrote:
anjan wrote:This war talk is foolish.


But the following statement is not foolish?
anjan wrote:Edit: The quality of our senior armed forces leadership is not something to write home about either. The top has been politicized and lack the courage to stand up for their men.
Is it really? See the recent complaints about the degradation of the Armed forces? Equipment shortages? Ever see the quality of accommodation at some of our high altitude posts? Spares on our submarines? Eqpt on our helicopters? What would it take to get the nation to sit up and take notice? One chief resigning? Two? Too many good men go along and try to make a bad situation slightly better. Soften the blow. It never works historically.

Western armies which is what people seem to use as a benchmark on this forum are primarily expeditionary these days. They fight on foreign soil and have the luxury of space and time, to make mistakes, correct leadership and equipment. We do not.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 22:15

anjan wrote:
shiv wrote:
But the following statement is not foolish?
Is it really? See the recent complaints about the degradation of the Armed forces? Equipment shortages? Ever see the quality of accommodation at some of our high altitude posts? Spares on our submarines? Eqpt on our helicopters? What would it take to get the nation to sit up and take notice? One chief resigning? Two? Too many good men go along and try to make a bad situation slightly better. Soften the blow. It never works historically.

Western armies which is what people seem to use as a benchmark on this forum are primarily expeditionary these days. They fight on foreign soil and have the luxury of space and time, to make mistakes, correct leadership and equipment. We do not.

Fair enough. But why is war talk foolish in that case? After all the brave men who must serve under the incompetents you have recognized may have to fight a war. What is foolish about discussing war? After all you are also talking about war preparedness. Would that also not be foolish if war talk was foolish? Maybe we are all foolish people.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby devesh » 03 Aug 2017 22:16

ldev wrote:I think this Chinese threat at the border has thrown into sharp focus India's lack of a cohesive strategy to identify, nurture ,focus and apply the concept of "national strength" to serve the interests of India's national security. National strength flows from economic strength which in turn depends on the size, dynamism and innovative capacity of the economy. And this in turn leads to military strength.

Today the IAF and IN identify their area of interest as from the Malacca Straits to the Persian Gulf. But in this area today the PLAN is making increasing inroads. To deter China requires an Indian military presence in East Asia and in the waters off China. That kind of definition is not going to come from the forces, it has to come from India's national security apparatus in coordination with MOD. But the MOD is so moribund that it cannot even properly control and manage the existing infrastructure let alone define a security architecture for India.



National strength does not flow from economic strength. And economic strength does not translate to military strength. To achieve real military strength, you need a concrete political-military expansionist ideology. The economic aspect falls into place if you have the former. Russia, Israel, USA, UK, Iran etc. They all demonstrate the same reality. Only in India do you see this notion that military strength comes from economic strength.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 22:18

devesh wrote:Only in India do you see this notion that military strength comes from economic strength.

:D Interesting observation. "We are poor so we can't fight war"

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 03 Aug 2017 22:19

anjan wrote:This war talk is foolish. Both sides have mobilized and any war will be bloody. Our political leadership, while clearly the best our country has to offer, has no national security strategy and not even a full time defense minister. Our bureaucracy is inefficient and incapable, focused on collecting power rather than any serious administration. Our adversary's lack of experience at any recent conflict is the only saving grace. War is coming and it won't be pretty.

Edit: The quality of our senior armed forces leadership is not something to write home about either. The top has been politicized and lack the courage to stand up for their men. At the lowest level our jawans, our YOs and the middle level leadership is the best in the world and will walk through hell before they give an inch. One hopes this is enough.

I do not know how you got this information but could you please reveal sources about incompetency of our mil brass, being politicized. What do you mean by not having National security strategy? Where have lived all those y-ears Sir?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 22:22

shiv wrote:
devesh wrote:Only in India do you see this notion that military strength comes from economic strength.

:D Interesting observation. "We are poor so we can't fight war"


Sigh....I knew we'd have this Karnadesque conclusion.

Yes, military strength does not necessarily flow from economic strength, but economic strength is required to sustain a large military and again do not mistake large manpower for a large military. If the US did not have a 18 trillion economy it could not spend 600 billion on its military. Today China can spend $200 billion on its armed forces, India cannot. Simple reason is the Chinese economy is larger. So when you want to size up your armed forces you need a large and dynamic economy.

And just having megaton nukes is not military strength.....as Karnad seems to believe. You cannot threaten to nuke somebody because they have supported a Maoist insurgency or caused a terror attack.
Last edited by ldev on 03 Aug 2017 22:26, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 22:23

shiv wrote: Would that person also be sympathetic to Xi Jinping if the latter's actions lead to nukes on Beijing?

The answer to that question is not straight forward, it depends on the situation. Usually in the event that eleven is well and kicking, he draws sympathy from masses, if anyone tried to take advantage of opportunity to overthrow him due to personal ambition, that individual would be viewed as a villain by the masses, so nobody would be so selfish that just to gain power they would become villainous at the time of national tragedy. So there will be no opposition, so even if eleven stepped on someone to reach this position, that person also would wholeheartedly support Eleven.

There will be imaginery enemies who would try to harm China when such a tragic event occurs, and when such enemies are there, it will be like "शत्रूणां वयं पंचोत्तर शतं"


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