Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Rudradev
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 03 Aug 2017 22:25

I want to address the common source of dhoti shiver which states "India has no full-time defence minister, so we are phugged".

It seems to me that Modi has revised the distribution of responsibility traditionally adhered to by the Aya-Ram Gaya-Ram leaders of yore. Formerly, PMs would assign security-related cabinet positions as fiefs to favoured political appointees, often with a vote-bank calculus in mind, just as they assigned ministries like I&B, mining, agriculture, commerce and what not (which may be equally important in the long run, but are less critically demanding of constant attention, informed and professional decision-making, and dynamic execution in the short-to-medium term).

That template has been replaced by a new one.

Where national security strategies are concerned, both internal and external, they are formulated directly within the PMO. Where security threats are concerned, both internal and external, they are dealt with directly within the PMO. The man primarily responsible for this comprehensive security architecture is Shri Doval. He reports directly to the PMO, eliminating the carping nonsense of inter-ministry budget rivalry, babu feuds etc. that traditionally contributed to inertia in the sphere of national security. When it comes to internal security, MHA defers to Shri Doval. When it comes to external security, MOD defers to Shri Doval. Shri Doval himself defers only to the PM.

This is how I see it, anyway... aided by a few chaiwalla/panwalla inputs.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anjan » 03 Aug 2017 22:27

shiv wrote:Fair enough. But why is war talk foolish in that case? After all the brave men who must serve under the incompetents you have recognized may have to fight a war. What is foolish about discussing war? After all you are also talking about war preparedness. Would that also not be foolish if war talk was foolish? Maybe we are all foolish people.
This is a fair criticism. It makes no difference whether people on this forum are yelling for war or not and it is foolish of me to be annoyed by it. It will come or not on it's own and the cost will be borne by the men on the ground.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 22:33

anjan wrote:
shiv wrote:Fair enough. But why is war talk foolish in that case? After all the brave men who must serve under the incompetents you have recognized may have to fight a war. What is foolish about discussing war? After all you are also talking about war preparedness. Would that also not be foolish if war talk was foolish? Maybe we are all foolish people.
This is a fair criticism. It makes no difference whether people on this forum are yelling for war or not and it is foolish of me to be annoyed by it. It will come or not on it's own and the cost will be borne by the men on the ground.

In fact I disagree with you here. This is a cost that the nation will have to bear. Every lost life has to feel like the lost life of one's own father or son. The officers too are in that category. This may be emotional talk, but because it is emotional talk I dislike the differentiation you make "Men are brave. they will die. Officers are stupid". The stupid officers are my sons/brothers as much as the men. That is why I think that the comments you have made are foolish.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby fanne » 03 Aug 2017 22:35

Rudradev ji, only that fact can explain, how did we have waste war reserve related purchases in the past few years on war footing. Also only that explains how we are fully mobilized. I will take this setup over anything for war fighting. For indigenous development and host of other things though, you need probably a dozen or so ministers (but one will do, not 0)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 22:41

TKiran wrote:
shiv wrote: Would that person also be sympathetic to Xi Jinping if the latter's actions lead to nukes on Beijing?

The answer to that question is not straight forward, it depends on the situation. Usually in the event that eleven is well and kicking, he draws sympathy from masses, if anyone tried to take advantage of opportunity to overthrow him due to personal ambition, that individual would be viewed as a villain by the masses,

Two issues
1. Are we (anyone that is) aware of any opponent that Xi may have had?
2. What support from the "masses" does Xi have? In China what the masses feel will be suppressed if the party or PLA does not like it.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anjan » 03 Aug 2017 22:41

Rudradev wrote:I want to address the common source of dhoti shiver which states "India has no full-time defence minister, so we are phugged".
In a country our size there are enough things for a full time PM, defense minister, NSA and Finance Minister to do. I'd assume doubly so if we're on the brink of war. There were enough things for a defense minister to do that a smart person like Parrikar had his hands full and claimed to have been under tremendous pressure. Did that somehow change in March? Babu Jagjivan Ram's contribution to the '71 war may be understated but was important.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 22:44

Rudradev wrote:I want to address the common source of dhoti shiver which states "India has no full-time defence minister, so we are phugged".

It seems to me that Modi has revised the distribution of responsibility traditionally adhered to by the Aya-Ram Gaya-Ram leaders of yore. Formerly, PMs would assign security-related cabinet positions as fiefs to favoured political appointees, often with a vote-bank calculus in mind, just as they assigned ministries like I&B, mining, agriculture, commerce and what not (which may be equally important in the long run, but are less critically demanding of constant attention, informed and professional decision-making, and dynamic execution in the short-to-medium term).

That template has been replaced by a new one.

Where national security strategies are concerned, both internal and external, they are formulated directly within the PMO. Where security threats are concerned, both internal and external, they are dealt with directly within the PMO. The man primarily responsible for this comprehensive security architecture is Shri Doval. He reports directly to the PMO, eliminating the carping nonsense of inter-ministry budget rivalry, babu feuds etc. that traditionally contributed to inertia in the sphere of national security. When it comes to internal security, MHA defers to Shri Doval. When it comes to external security, MOD defers to Shri Doval. Shri Doval himself defers only to the PM.

This is how I see it, anyway... aided by a few chaiwalla/panwalla inputs.


India had full time defence ministers like Antony. Those were the days my friend. Parikkar impressed the public - but he is history. I don't know and what I am about to say is guesswork - but I think there was always a tussle between Finance and defence ministries with babus (on someone's payroll) in finance playing games with defence. That is one thing that is probably getting bypassed now.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sanjaykumar » 03 Aug 2017 22:49

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china ... AJ1TP?il=0



Despite China's numerous diplomatic representations, its foreign ministry said, India has not only not withdrawn its troops but has also been making "unreasonable demands" and is not sincere about a resolution.

"If India really cherishes peace, it ought to immediately withdraw its personnel who have illegally crossed the border into the Indian side."

China's defense ministry last month warned India not to harbor any illusions about the Chinese military's ability to defend its territory.


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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 22:55

Perhaps one solution is that for every Chinese road coming south through Occupied Tibet India should offer to build another lane going north towards Hanland. Award contract to Kerala National Highway Construction Corporation. Since this will take the next 100 years, we should have peace.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anjan » 03 Aug 2017 22:57

shiv wrote:In fact I disagree with you here. This is a cost that the nation will have to bear. Every lost life has to feel like the lost life of one's own father or son. The officers too are in that category. This may be emotional talk, but because it is emotional talk I dislike the differentiation you make "Men are brave. they will die. Officers are stupid". The stupid officers are my sons/brothers as much as the men. That is why I think that the comments you have made are foolish.
This is a misrepresentation. I specifically mentioned our junior officers(YOs) and mid level offrs as being the very best. I know enough of the men in theatre that I do not need your assistance with my feelings. Cost the nation has to bear is BS political talk. If the nation felt such a cost then people wouldn't be out there with shit for equipment.

"has to feel" is a long ways from "will feel". Men will die and will be forgotten. 70 years after independence we can't find enough space in our capital to build a war memorial. I suspect no one will much miss another thousand dead. It is your prerogative to find it foolish.

Edit: I knew men in my father's battalion who fell in Sri Lanka. The Sri Lankans built a memorial to honor those men. You talk of feeling like every lost man was your brother. Do we have a memorial in India? Did we as a country feel like we had enough land to give to write their names in a piece of stone so they may be remembered? Talk is cheap.
Last edited by anjan on 03 Aug 2017 23:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 03 Aug 2017 22:57

If I were Xi right now I would order a full scale invasion... of Bhutan. Tanks rolling into Thimphu, evicting the feudalistic oppressive regime who are running-dogs of Indian imperialists, liberating the people and gifting them with a People's Leader.

Also showing India as powerless to actually defend Bhutan when big push comes to big shove (as opposed to a tiny uninhabited plateau which India only wants to grab for its own sake anyway).

New People's Leader of Bhutan will then tear up all treaties with India and order Indian forces out of Bhutanese territory.

Stakes raised. India humiliated without PLA attacking India directly at a point where IA holds operational advantage. Doklam in Chinese hands entirely.

Howzat?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby g.sarkar » 03 Aug 2017 23:03

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/china-in ... it-1733203
China-India Border Spat Casts Shadow Ahead Of BRICS Summit
BEIJING:The dispute at the Sikkim border began in June after the Chinese army tried to build a road near the tri-junction of Bhutan, China and India. China claims that in June, Indian troops crossed the border at Sikkim and stopped the Chinese army from constructing a road.
China is taking an increasingly tough line on a border row with India and President Xi Jinping looks set for an awkward encounter with Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the multilateral BRICS summit next month.
Diplomats say Beijing would like to resolve the border issue before a summit of the BRICS nations - that also groups Brazil, Russia and South Africa - in the Chinese city of Xiamen in early September, and ensure nothing dampens what China wants to be a show of cooperation and friendship among developing countries.
But that could be tough. On Wednesday, China ramped up its rhetoric over the stand-off, accusing India of "concocting" excuses.
"China will take all necessary measures to safeguard its legitimate and lawful rights and interests," the Foreign Ministry said.
The dispute at the Sikkim border began in June after the Chinese army tried to build a road near the tri-junction of Bhutan, China and India. China claims that in June, Indian troops crossed the border at Sikkim and stopped the Chinese army from constructing a road.
Responding, India reiterated an earlier line that work by a Chinese road crew in the sensitive frontier area would have changed the status quo and urging "utmost restraint" by all sides.
.....

Gautam

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 03 Aug 2017 23:24

^^^^^^
Rants of a depressed man. Thats it. China attacks Bhutan and India would let them roll over? Thanks

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 03 Aug 2017 23:25

rsingh wrote:^^^^^^
Rants of a depressed man. Thats it. China attacks Bhutan and India would let them roll over? Thanks


Do you have anything useful to add?

Or do you just want to resort to personal attacks and two-paisa psychoanalysis of a poster who expressed some idea you don't like?

If you are confident that India will go to war in Bhutan proper to defend it from Chinese invasion (or 4GW putsch like Russians did in Crimea/North Ossetia)... then say that. I don't think it would be that easy.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 23:28

Right idea, but wrong tactics. A coup seems so much more elegant. Running tanks into Bhutan from the north is not so easy, and the supply line could be shut by aerial bombing in a hurry. But all in all, it does look increasingly like things are spiralling down to war. At minimum, the BRICS summit needs to be cancelled.

That boycott needs to go viral.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 03 Aug 2017 23:35

China is the host for this BRICS. It is up to them but if the summit is on the India/Modi should attend.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 03 Aug 2017 23:36

There are reason why there are these personal attacks. Those of your "ideas" are random ,thoughtless,meaningless rant. You can not go on *****ing around and cry about personal attacks when confronted. Same goes for Anjan. Take your bull**** somewhere else.
Admins: we need serous discussions and not those wet chadi guys who behave like defeated folks even before war. Ban me if you have to but it is shame that people have courage to **** around in such important thread.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ldev » 03 Aug 2017 23:37

From 1962 to today the Chinese Communist Party has had 8 General Secretaries or equivalent rank (prior to 1982) from Mao to Xi. They have also had Deng Xiaoping from 1976 to 1989 who although he did not hold the numero ono positions was the defacto supreme leader during that period of time.

During this entire period, these varied 9 Chinese leaders have exhibited unremitting hostility towards India, starting with the 1962 war, the 1967 border clash, nuclear proliferation to Pakistan, missile technology proliferation to Pakistan, lobbying with the US (Clinton) for a G2 arrangement, facilitating NoKo missile technology to Pakistan, the string of pearls strategy to surround India with BD, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Gwadar etc. More recently we have CPEC, the NSG veto, Masood Azhar.

The question is does it matter whether Xi Jinping is in power or is replaced by somebody else? Xi's personal position may be of academic interest to somebody studying the internal political machinations in the CPC but is of no relevance in determining the India-China equation, the last 9 Chinese leaders have already proven that.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby AdityaM » 03 Aug 2017 23:43

How did China manage the Indian threat over the last few weeks?

Apart from making aggressive noises meant to intimidate an otherwise traditionally timid opponent (India) by psyops, they went and conducted war firing exercises, massive display of missiles & hitec war equipment, and test fired a ballistic missile.

What did india do apart from not budging an inch?
No counter drills, no missile test. An Agni test now would have been a firm message. But none attempted.
Naval exercise was pre-planned so not really part of the counter response signaling by India.


A bit surprised that India did not do any militarily manoeuvres or missile tests.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shyamal » 03 Aug 2017 23:55

China wins if India budges. So its trying to do all kinds of intimidation tactics.
India wins if it can continue the status quo - ie not let the road building to proceed.
No other country in the world wants an India - china war. China thinks if it can make enough noises to make people believe that a war is imminent then world opinion will make India retreat from its position. That will be a double victory for china.

So India is making all kinds of Dovish noises(while standing firm on the border) about talks, diplomacy etc so that China alone looks like warmonger and there is no international opinion pressure on India to change its stand. "we are already being so reasonable only......"

Thats just my humble reading.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 03 Aug 2017 23:58

ldev wrote:From 1962 to today the Chinese Communist Party has had 8 General Secretaries or equivalent rank (prior to 1982) from Mao to Xi. They have also had Deng Xiaoping from 1976 to 1989 who although he did not hold the numero ono positions was the defacto supreme leader during that period of time.

During this entire period, these varied 9 Chinese leaders have exhibited unremitting hostility towards India, starting with the 1962 war, the 1967 border clash, nuclear proliferation to Pakistan, missile technology proliferation to Pakistan, lobbying with the US (Clinton) for a G2 arrangement, facilitating NoKo missile technology to Pakistan, the string of pearls strategy to surround India with BD, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Gwadar etc. More recently we have CPEC, the NSG veto, Masood Azhar.

The question is does it matter whether Xi Jinping is in power or is replaced by somebody else? Xi's personal position may be of academic interest to somebody studying the internal political machinations in the CPC but is of no relevance in determining the India-China equation, the last 9 Chinese leaders have already proven that.


I wouldn't say Cheen has unremitting hostility to India. If they did then there would be far more bloodshed on the borders over the years. The truth is they leave the borders pretty lightly defended.

Pakistan is unremittingly hostile. Cheen is stupidly arrogant and cocksure of its ability to game the system to their advantage without fighting.

In the end, it is civilizational. Cheen will try to match influence with Unkil but because Unkil blocks the East and Russia the North, Cheen will go West and South.

So it won't matter who is charge of Cheen or whether it is commie or democratic.

In fact, Cheen would be far more dangerous to India's status (if not safety) if it were a democracy and thus supported by the US, Japan and the rest of East Asia.

The real contest is civilizational, not ideological.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2017 00:20

shyamal wrote:China wins if India budges. So its trying to do all kinds of intimidation tactics.
India wins if it can continue the status quo - ie not let the road building to proceed.


India only wins if we go to war and change the border in a crushing manner.

Otherwise, they will spin things to their advantage like they always have. Already their propaganda machine is hinting that we backed down to 40 from 400 troops. And "still" they are "angry."

Fvck that. Let's roll!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Aug 2017 00:24

cholaji: The thing that dhoti-shivering sdres don't accept is that there is a damn good reason for Chinese grudge against India: The devastating losses in 1962. Per fairly objective assessment, China took over some 14500 sq miles of largely barren Aksai Chin. India won some 32500 sq. miles of territory that was "disputed". Also, as pointed out by the postor at the Chinese-dominated site yesterdin, Chinas lost some 280,000 men all told in the 1962 misadventure. The panicked rout from Tezpur etc. was utterly chaotic and cost massive losses. Just imagine yourself, having to retreat uphill from Tezpur all the way through the Himalayan passes to Tibet and then a long way - in November-December-January before getting to any help. And that after months of fighting your way through the same passes on the way down. 80% attrition would be optimistic.

Think about it: Chinese don't write accounts of the 1962 war - no fiction, no movies, nothing. Even the survivors were hushed up by carting them off to Gobi during Cultural Revolution. Hardly any witnesses left. It was a MASSIVE disaster for Red China.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2017 00:36

UlanBatori wrote:cholaji: The thing that dhoti-shivering sdres don't accept is that there is a damn good reason for Chinese grudge against India: The devastating losses in 1962. Per fairly objective assessment, China took over some 14500 sq miles of largely barren Aksai Chin. India won some 32500 sq. miles of territory that was "disputed". Also, as pointed out by the postor at the Chinese-dominated site yesterdin, Chinas lost some 280,000 men all told in the 1962 misadventure. The panicked rout from Tezpur etc. was utterly chaotic and cost massive losses. Just imagine yourself, having to retreat uphill from Tezpur all the way through the Himalayan passes to Tibet and then a long way - in November-December-January before getting to any help. And that after months of fighting your way through the same passes on the way down. 80% attrition would be optimistic.

Think about it: Chinese don't write accounts of the 1962 war - no fiction, no movies, nothing. Even the survivors were hushed up by carting them off to Gobi during Cultural Revolution. Hardly any witnesses left. It was a MASSIVE disaster for Red China.


UB, Cheen cannot put 50K men on the Tibetan plateau even today. There was no way they had the ability to do 280K in 1962.

This bullshit fear that Cheen will eventually "human wave" us off the Himalayas (like supposedly in 1962) is what is keeping us from action.

We own all advantages on the border. And nothing the chinis can come up with will change this equation. If we go to war we will win because the numbers and material are overwhelmingly on our side. We just need to fight.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 04 Aug 2017 00:38

shiv wrote:
TKiran wrote:The answer to that question is not straight forward, it depends on the situation. Usually in the event that eleven is well and kicking, he draws sympathy from masses, if anyone tried to take advantage of opportunity to overthrow him due to personal ambition, that individual would be viewed as a villain by the masses,

Two issues
1. Are we (anyone that is) aware of any opponent that Xi may have had?
2. What support from the "masses" does Xi have? In China what the masses feel will be suppressed if the party or PLA does not like it.

OT alert...
I was attending a training on "corporate strategy" in IIM, one of the topics was 'succession'. Big corporates​such as IBM or GE or GM follow the Chinese model. The model is called "consensus". There would be several contenders for CEO Post, usually very high performance individuals, one amongst them would be selected (selection at that stage doesn't depend on performance, but some personal traits). What happens after that is called "consensus". The current CEO calls all the contenders and announces the name of the next CEO and asks the other contenders for their future plans as their career growth is no more. Some people chose to continue with their current role wholeheartedly, some choose to leave. If they are leaving, it's good. If they choose to stay back, they have to get the approval of the new CEO. Some people do not get the approval, they will have to leave, so the remaining one or two people have to pledge their allegiance to the CEO, naturally they will be loyalists to the new CEO. "Consensus" doesn't mean everyone has to agree to a certain decision. Consensus means that a certain decision is made, and announced those who don't agree with, have to leave. Because the new CEO should be all powerful and he should not have any one looking over his shoulder. This is originally Chinese method, later adapted by American corporates​.

OT end.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 04 Aug 2017 00:47

shyamal wrote:China wins if India budges. So its trying to do all kinds of intimidation tactics.
India wins if it can continue the status quo - ie not let the road building to proceed.
No other country in the world wants an India - china war. China thinks if it can make enough noises to make people believe that a war is imminent then world opinion will make India retreat from its position. That will be a double victory for china.

So India is making all kinds of Dovish noises(while standing firm on the border) about talks, diplomacy etc so that China alone looks like warmonger and there is no international opinion pressure on India to change its stand. "we are already being so reasonable only......"

Thats just my humble reading.


This sounds about right to me. The status quo is punishing China day by day on multiple levels. The more they threaten the more they paint themselves into a corner.

Their only option is to do something lateral to apply pressure or create disadvantageous circumstances for us somewhere else that is *not* Doklam.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Aug 2017 00:51

chola should be rechristened as chol_warrior..
a compliment to you chola for your never ending belief of our victory.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Aug 2017 01:01

with shimmering dhoti?
cholaji, how do you know that

cheen cannot put 50K men up in Tibet even today

Do you know how many men, women and children Turkey "put" into Syria during the Armenian genocide?
How many men did cheen put into North Korea across Yalu river circa 1950s which was before 1962? Terrain a lot friendlier than Tibet, hain?

OTOH, do you have ANY idea of the stress put on a human forced to trek UP into Tibet carrying weapons and supplies, then UP into the Himalayas, forced to wait in high-altitude cold for a month, then forced to fight uphill, then down the Himalayas into green terrain, and then back UP INTO the Himalays in late November, trekking all the way back into (hostile) Tibet in winter? Even today, even climbers die in big numbers doing a small part of this. Many Chinese soldiers of 1962 were not young, fit men. They were half-starved political prisoners from concentration camps, and survivors of WW2 and then Mao's Long March. TB, cholera, dysentery, pneumonia, and sheer fatigue, plus the desperation because of the terrible plight of their families and loved ones (of course the modern brats don't have any siblings etc) all took their very heavy toll, apart from the thousands of fatal accidents. I bet many Chinese soldiers barely even wanted to live. The reports of the initial clashes is that the Chinese soldiers very respectfully buried dead Indian soldiers with full military honors. They really had no hate against India then, they were just forced to fight forward, or they would get shot by their political commissars.

End the pro-chinese propaganda pls. Stop parroting the garbage put out by the Commie Indian media and the westerners. Use a little bit of reason for a change.

Face it. China suffered MASSIVE losses in 1962, nearly as bad as Napoleon and Hitler in Russia. Himalayan winter is no better than Russian winter, and the altitude and storms are unsparing.

India had to withdraw from several places where there was a sea of Chinese around, and just not enough bullets to kill them all. Even the decision to not use Air Force is explained on WikiPurana: Galbraith reasoned that using IAF/USAF would lead to such a horrible massacre that it would create generations of hate. Not worth it, so they just watched the Chinese stumble back up the Himalayas.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 04 Aug 2017 02:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 04 Aug 2017 01:13

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ame ... ?page=show

America Should Not Cheer on an India-China Fight
Lyle J. Goldstein August 2, 2017

[The author is a Professor of Strategy in the China Maritime Studies Institute (CMSI) at the United States Naval War College in Newport RI. Probably a colleague of the unlamented Tim Hoyt. He is obviously tilted pro-China, and pro-Bakistan (as long as it is a vassal of China). Gives lots of gratuitious advice that New Delhi should "see this", "do that", "accept the other". The very fact that Beijing has activated this kind of stooge to write lifafa articles in the Western media, itself reveals how worried they are about the status-quo.]


Even as China and India once more come nose to nose and eyeball to eyeball across the forbidding glaciers of the high Himalayas, the United States must resist the temptation to pour gasoline on this potentially dangerous conflagration even though more than a few U.S. (and global) arms merchants would benefit from the intensification of Sino-Indian military rivalry. Nor do more bombs and special forces for Afghanistan portend any particular progress. Indeed, the inclination in Washington to blame all of Afghanistan’s troubles on Pakistan is extremely unlikely to resolve any fundamental strategic issues and may well make the overall strategic situation highly combustible. On the other hand, China’s “Belt and Road” holds out the promise of genuine developmental progress for both Afghanistan and especially Pakistan, as discussed above. :(( :((


Some stalwart warriors here may spot an opportunity to have fun in the Comments Section. :mrgreen:
Last edited by Rudradev on 04 Aug 2017 01:14, edited 1 time in total.

chola
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2017 01:14

ArjunPandit wrote:chola should be rechristened as chol_warrior..
a compliment to you chola for your never ending belief of our victory.


No, I am a realist. I believe in making money over fighting. But I also believe in numbers and in opportunity.

Read the literature out there.

We own OVERWHELMING advantages in manpower and aircraft along the border.

And what the chinis are doing here today is handing us an opportunity. A SYRE P5 with a convenient glass jaw that is broadcasting to the world he wants to fight? And who isn't even re-enforcing his outnumbered forces in Tibet because he arrogantly thinks we are too Gandhi to actually punch him in the face?

How many of these opportunities can we get? This is our Russo-Japanese or Spanish-American War. A defining war to make a great military power for generations.

Let's roll!

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Aug 2017 01:42



shyamal
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shyamal » 04 Aug 2017 01:47

chola wrote:
shyamal wrote:China wins if India budges. So its trying to do all kinds of intimidation tactics.
India wins if it can continue the status quo - ie not let the road building to proceed.


India only wins if we go to war and change the border in a crushing manner.

Otherwise, they will spin things to their advantage like they always have. Already their propaganda machine is hinting that we backed down to 40 from 400 troops. And "still" they are "angry."

Fvck that. Let's roll!

Chola ji, no one believes the recent China propaganda seriously. They are so self-contradictory that it is not even funny. Being a dictatorial country they do not really know how to effect public opinion in a heterogenous chaotic demoracy like India. They may be paymasters of some opinion makers but they have zilch idea how to influence Indian mango public. Even Pakistan has much more finese.

Lets not fear their spin and propaganda.

If we have to go to war to protect our national interest then we will surely go to war. The whole country will stand with our soldiers.
But just for a nebulous "its our moment" we should not rush into hostilities. Let China appear the warmonger :)

Even the greatest strategist the world has ever seen(and omniscient to boot) went to war reluctantly as the last resort - after all avenues to peace were closed.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 04 Aug 2017 01:49

Chola Too many complaints. If continued will have to bench you.
Ramana

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Aug 2017 01:58

IMO the Chinese are losing what was left of their credibility by stealing land from tiny Bhutan - and bullying them - and then get caught by the Bhutanese trafffic police with Indians laughing at their predicament.

What would happen if there is another report of a standoff? Everyone will assume that is China thieving again. For instance, in occupied Aksai Hind. I think it is time to send an armored division along the northern boundary road of Aksai Hind (shiv recommends using the river bed). With helicopter (pretty tough I know) and fighter support. The trouble with China's crying Wolf! Wolf! is that no one will believe them.

The thing about places like Aksai Hind is that occuping 2 posts on a road means the whole area is colored differently on the map. No human sets foot on the vast majority of the land.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 04 Aug 2017 01:59, edited 1 time in total.

vnms
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vnms » 04 Aug 2017 01:58

China's SOP has been to claim some piece of land as theirs by stating some bs like those regions used to pay tribute to China and hence, they are justified in retaking those lands.

I wonder what their reaction would be if Mongols claimed all of China as theirs. May be, leaving out the song empire region for later.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shyamal » 04 Aug 2017 02:18

China is basically in a tight spot. They have painted themselves into such a corner that no coherent stand is possible now.
They have basically painted themselves as warmongers. It is difficult to whip up war fervour when no one has been killed and both sides seem to be peacefully staring at each other instead of firing a single shot in one month. Very difficult to sell "rightous anger" in such circumstances.

So now they are trying to take the 15 page dossier "we are the aggrieved party" stand. This is just adding to general confusion only because china has till now portrayed itself as victim-aggressor(for example in SCS) and not as victim-negotiator. So they are novices in this track :)

They have arm-twisted all of east asia. They have stolen from all of west. No one likes them. They are only tolerated. Everyone is enjoying the comeuppance at zero cost.

The first result of PK-CN copulation seems to be that China has got the tactical brilliance virus from their kept.
Last edited by shyamal on 04 Aug 2017 02:20, edited 1 time in total.

chola
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chola » 04 Aug 2017 02:19

ramana wrote:Chola Too many complaints. If continued will have to bench you.
Ramana


WTH?! What did I do this time?

anupmisra
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby anupmisra » 04 Aug 2017 02:29

chola wrote:UB, Cheen cannot put 50K men on the Tibetan plateau even today. There was no way they had the ability to do 280K in 1962....If we go to war we will win because the numbers and material are overwhelmingly on our side. We just need to fight.


Don't forget to use the air force this time.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 04 Aug 2017 02:45

vnms wrote:China's SOP has been to claim some piece of land as theirs by stating some bs like those regions used to pay tribute to China and hence, they are justified in retaking those lands.

1. I wonder what their reaction would be if Mongols claimed all of China as theirs. May be, leaving out the song empire region for later.

I am wondering which would happen first, chinese claiming IOR as their lake because of Zheng He or Mongols claiming rest of china or india giving a new meaning to one china policy.
2. I for once enjoying the kargil syndrome on chinese (occupation+lying+getting kicked+not being able to do anything on ground)
3. Should we have a poll on how this stand off will end?
Added later
4 .I want to be alive when china claims moon as theirs, they have placed some crap over there, tian xia and some crap can be pulled from ancient chinese text saying that they always meant moon only. Now that they have pakis in their inner pockets of trouser, they can always claim that tehir prophet split the moon in two, one part was for chinese only so that the pork eating chinese can leave peacefully on the brighter side whereas rest all can die in dark :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 04 Aug 2017 02:59, edited 1 time in total.


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