Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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pankajs
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby pankajs » 09 Aug 2017 14:01

pankajs wrote:
schinnas wrote:I am grateful to China for making a big deal out of an issue where they are at fault. This is a lesson to our MEA and policy makers. We should have taken a much harder stance on Karakoram highway.

We should start demanding that China pull out of PoK and GB and dismantle Karakoram highway built on Indian territory without our permission. We should issue a statement every week advising caution to those near Karakoram highway that we retain right to dismantle it and giving ultimatums to Pakistan and China to comply.

Let Republic TV and other media call Cheeni leaders as liars and warn them to remove their invasive troops from Akshai Chin.

It is atrocious that the victim (India) is keeping quite while the at-fault thug (China) is crying wolf.

We mock the Chinese su-su farts on every available opportunity and yet we want to emulate them? Aren't most folks on this forum suggesting that the "all fart and no $hit" Chinese are making a fool of themselves? Frankly, I am a little puzzled.

OK ... let me start with your first post and then I will come to you second post. Seems I was unable to get my point across.

What have the Chinese done in relation to Dokalam?
1. Demand that India withdraw unilaterally.
2. Issue statements frequently.
3. Giving ultimatums
4. Use its media to call Indians liars and warn us of invasive action.

Your last line was "It is atrocious that the victim (India) is keeping quite while the at-fault thug (China) is crying wolf". Clearly you wanted India to emulate China's su-su strategy which is "all fart and no $hit". If that is the gold standard why are we mocking them on those very things? That is the reason for my puzzlement.

Added later: I am not saying that the Chinese strategy intimidation is wrong. Clearly it has worked for them in the past. Most folks on this forum have mocked such a strategy with India because we don't see it working in our case. If it won't work for China in India's specific case then how do we expect it to work for India wrt China. All we will end up doing is making a fool of ourselves just as we think China is making of itself.
Last edited by pankajs on 09 Aug 2017 14:25, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 14:19

Singha wrote:would it be true to say that tibet at present does not have any oil refinery or oil pipeline from the mainland or central asia ?

armies need fuel , lots of it ... how are the POL storages in tibet kept topped up and are they all replenished by road tankers ?

blow them up or keep it under pressure and that means the ability to field large forces is curtailed badly.

AFAIK the nearest refinery and oil storage is 1100 km (by rail) north of Lhasa in Golmud. By air (from India) it is just 800 km

There are refineries in Xinjiang, and Rutog town on the eastern end of Pangong lake has oil storage tanks

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 09 Aug 2017 14:36

All the fuel to the LAC from Lhasa/ anywhere else has to be brought through roads.

Of-course PLA must have some storage areas in the mountains.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby nam » 09 Aug 2017 14:39

Any action by China would result in India kicking off the Chinis from Dolam plateau fully. India might decide to permanently station troops on Dolam after the ceasefire.

Whatever the Chinis do, they are loosing Dolam, one way the other. Right now they atleast have access to it.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby DrRatnadip » 09 Aug 2017 14:47

http://www.firstpost.com/india/doka-la- ... 7.html/amp

Doka La ground report Part II: Amid threat of war, soldiers place their faith in a fallen comrade


At the age of 22, sepoy Harbhajan Singh drowned in a glacier in 1968. However, he continued to serve the army in spirit and was formally retired only in 2006, 38 years after he was buried in snow. In the intervening period, he was promoted up the ranks as would any Indian Army soldier, ending up as Captain Harbhajan Singh
.
.
Havaldar Jasbir Singh of the Sikh regiment is a regular. He said the PLA knows of Baba Harbhajan Singh. He has been told that by none other than Chinese soldiers. The PLA is curious about the mystery of Baba Harbhajan Singh and the legends associated with him.

"From their questions, it’s clear they are in complete awe of Babaji. They are aware that the Baba patrols the border round-the-clock to keep a tab on their activities," said Singh.

Such is the respect and reverence that the Chinese have for Capt (Retd) Harbhajan Singh, they leave a chair empty for the Baba at the flag meetings held between the Indian Army and the PLA.

.
.
A captain told Firstpost that the shrine of Baba Harbhajan Singh is located on the Old Silk Road on which Doklam is located and which China wants to turn into OBOR. He said men of the PLA never use foul language when talking of the Baba; that they too were aware of the 'Spirit that Rides' and guards the LAC.

The soldiers believe the eternal spirit of Capt (Retd) Harbhajan Singh will warn the Indian Army of an impending PLA attack three days in advance. So far, after the Doklam standoff began in mid-June, no warning has come from the Baba! So, nothing to worry.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 09 Aug 2017 14:48

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:would it be true to say that tibet at present does not have any oil refinery or oil pipeline from the mainland or central asia ?

armies need fuel , lots of it ... how are the POL storages in tibet kept topped up and are they all replenished by road tankers ?

blow them up or keep it under pressure and that means the ability to field large forces is curtailed badly.

AFAIK the nearest refinery and oil storage is 1100 km (by rail) north of Lhasa in Golmud. By air (from India) it is just 800 km

There are refineries in Xinjiang, and Rutog town on the eastern end of Pangong lake has oil storage tanks




As Doval says in above video at 6:10, the best strategy is for us against China is to develop missile capacity. This was in 2012, after listening how much we realize the importance of Nirbhay. It could have been used for anything from that refinery to HSR bridges.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Marten » 09 Aug 2017 14:57

Are the climatic conditions as bad as Siachen? (No!). The altitude is 10k (~3000-3500m) while the rest of Tibet averages 5.250-5,400m.
Perhaps then, we will make permanent shelters and dig ourselves in. The positive thing is that PRC demarcated the border and disputed area in this sector themselves. Crossing over is therefore not an option until they want and are truly prepared for war.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 16:10

nam wrote:All the fuel to the LAC from Lhasa/ anywhere else has to be brought through roads.

Of-course PLA must have some storage areas in the mountains.

Those will also have roads. And those roads will be visible as branch roads from main highways. I suggest that people should look. Although I covered 1000s of km of roads using GE I can't claim I saw every millimeter

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 09 Aug 2017 16:53

Dileep wrote:According to the report by MIT, the highest % import is "broadcast equipment". That is the millions of satellite dishes and Cable/DSL modems. My own KB imports them rather than making them, because there is no way we can meet the price. Instead we build stuff that pays better using the mfg capacity. We really don't need to go for these high volume low value things.

Instead, we must:

1. Build the next Mediatek here. Design to fab. Then raise tariff barrier for Integrated phone chips and imported phones.
2. Invite the ceramic companies to build passive chip lines here. Then raise tariff barriers for all passives.
3. Set up easy credit for electronic products value chain. Push the carrying cost all the way to the retailer. That will level the playing ground a lot.


That is anywhere between $100-300bn right there. And quite a few years. Especially since manufacturing isn't an internet startup to only need a few laptops and a cafe in blr, kerala. Until then, step by step reduction in what level of electronic device manufacturing we are willing to accept in china for products to be sold in India should be done. No finished products. No sub-assembly and on and on until no raw materials even. It isn't like we lack manpower. A good domestic industry will lead to greater r2i in this domain and snowball into better skilling here. This can be done to quite a lot of industries. Especially the ones that were undercut on price earlier. Raise import barriers and let local ones flourish. I remember reading sometime back that we import dentist chairs from china and a large majority of our medical instruments are imported.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Aug 2017 17:05

DrRatnadip wrote:http://www.firstpost.com/india/doka-la-ground-report-part-i-amid-border-rift-and-war-threats-soldiers-rest-their-faith-in-fallen-comrade-3909217.html/amp


[/b]

Sites like fp, post these things more to make fun of our such things in a slymie manner

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 17:36

schinnasji:
In your assessment of reptilean forces, u did not include the long-range bomber fleet. Inside 10 hours of an order, they can reach the Himalayan border from their bases nearer the coast, with missiles and bombs. I suppose they are usually loaded for bigger targets such as ships, but I am sure the Chinese have other ways to fill them as well. For instance, those little things that are parachuted when a warhead bursts, floating down listening for tank and jeep engines. There are no tall trees in the area to stop them. This is a deadly "vertical descent" capability.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Aug 2017 17:42

The other MASSIVE growth industry in China is Conferences (and pay-2-publish journals). Every day we get about 20 invitations to International Conferences in China. Wonder how many desis are spending taxpayer money on these.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 18:06

Why the CPEC will fail
https://youtu.be/GQ0YjUvG3-Q

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby a_bharat » 09 Aug 2017 18:25

Shiv, good info. Please check the pronunciation of avalanche.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 18:57

a_bharat wrote:Shiv, good info. Please check the pronunciation of avalanche.

Too late :)

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Karthik S » 09 Aug 2017 19:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLbGCHHT3F4

Check the comments. Right now, I think Chinese are the most racist people on earth.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Aug 2017 19:37

Cousin of gobar times: China Leli
Anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear will have got the message. Yet New Delhi refuses to come to its senses and pull its troops back to its own side of the border.

Missing manohar parrikar, I am sure it would have been very difficult for him to stay quiet for this long without passing a funny comment.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2017 19:51

Surgical instruments we import from pakistan
Their hammer forges have better tech than our ludhiana

Some things are so cringeworthy i have to cover my face and watch through my fingers

Enquoob those h6 bombers stand no chance vs fghters in sfw strike missions their only role is long range alcm
This is not isis they are up with but iaf
So stop lungi shiver abd have coffee

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 19:55

Singha wrote:Surgical instruments we import from pakistan

Saw them in the UK in 1980s. Never seen one in India

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby RKumar » 09 Aug 2017 19:56

I absolutely miss Mr. Parrikar, I hope Mr. Modi & Mr. Shah read the signs and bring back him as soon as possible before it is too late as full time Defence Minister. It is better to lose a state ruling then having half leadership during crisis time. During 1962 also, problem was with the leadership so GoI should take every required steps to give clear signals to world.

I hope MP will be more careful with his words but very loud with his actions. Jai Hind!!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Bart S » 09 Aug 2017 20:02

RKumar wrote:I absolutely miss Mr. Parrikar, I hope Mr. Modi & Mr. Shah read the signs and bring back him as soon as possible before it is too late as full time Defence Minister. It is better to lose a state ruling then having half leadership during crisis time. During 1962 also, problem was with the leadership so GoI should take every required steps to give clear signals to world.

I hope MP will be more careful with his words but very loud with his actions. Jai Hind!!


Highly OT: IIRC the reason that he had to quit was that one local politician from a small party (whose numbers BJP needed to go past Congress) insisted that he would only support BJP if the MP returned to Goa and became the CM. That struck me as an absurd demand at the time, but whenever this topic is brought up I can't help feeling that there might have been a conspiracy (esp by arms dealer lobby etc) to get rid of him as RM and get him out of Delhi.


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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 09 Aug 2017 20:29

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:Surgical instruments we import from pakistan

Saw them in the UK in 1980s. Never seen one in India



http://m.economictimes.com/news/politic ... 837835.cms

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Prasad » 09 Aug 2017 20:39

UlanBatori wrote:schinnasji:
In your assessment of reptilean forces, u did not include the long-range bomber fleet. Inside 10 hours of an order, they can reach the Himalayan border from their bases nearer the coast, with missiles and bombs. I suppose they are usually loaded for bigger targets such as ships, but I am sure the Chinese have other ways to fill them as well. For instance, those little things that are parachuted when a warhead bursts, floating down listening for tank and jeep engines. There are no tall trees in the area to stop them. This is a deadly "vertical descent" capability.

Chengdu to Jorhat is approx 1000km. So long range massed alcm strikes are a possibility. Don't need to roll in launchers into Tibet to do this.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Manish_Sharma » 09 Aug 2017 20:53

Singha wrote:
shiv wrote:Saw them in the UK in 1980s. Never seen one in India



http://m.economictimes.com/news/politic ... 837835.cms

.
Indian artisans sought to compete with their Pakistani counterparts but eventually gave up, suppliers told ET. "These instruments are manufactured with the aid of hammer forging, a technique available in Pakistan," said Vipin Yadav, owner of Leo Manufacturers.
"Setting up an industry having this technique will entail substantial cost, which we won't be able to bear without government support. While we manufacture 50 pieces a day, Pakistan, with the help of hammer forging, produces 5,000 pieces a day. And at a much cheaper price."



Why porkis have this 'Hammer Forge' tech and we don't? Our people are saying without govt help we can't afford :


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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2017 21:21

India moved 3 DIV of Sukna 33 corps three one month ago.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 21:24

DrRatnadip wrote:http://www.firstpost.com/india/doka-la-ground-report-part-i-amid-border-rift-and-war-threats-soldiers-rest-their-faith-in-fallen-comrade-3909217.html/amp
.
A captain told Firstpost that the shrine of Baba Harbhajan Singh is located on the Old Silk Road on which Doklam is located and which China wants to turn into OBOR.


Baba Harbajan Singh shrine is inside Indian territory in Sikkim and enroute to Nathula pass...just few kms before Nathula La. Nathu la was probably on old Silk route but not sure about Dolamis plateau.

Baba Harbajan Singh shrine is visited by lot of tourists as well and soldiers come, salute Baba statue and go. In some ways a poignant experience.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pratyush » 09 Aug 2017 22:00

schinnas wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote:http://www.firstpost.com/india/doka-la-ground-report-part-i-amid-border-rift-and-war-threats-soldiers-rest-their-faith-in-fallen-comrade-3909217.html/amp
.
A captain told Firstpost that the shrine of Baba Harbhajan Singh is located on the Old Silk Road on which Doklam is located and which China wants to turn into OBOR.


Baba Harbajan Singh shrine is inside Indian territory in Sikkim and enroute to Nathula pass...just few kms before Nathula La. Nathu la was probably on old Silk route but not sure about Dolamis plateau.

Baba Harbajan Singh shrine is visited by lot of tourists as well and soldiers come, salute Baba statue and go. In some ways a poignant experience.


I was there in 2014 and indeed it was a unique experience. Strangely I have been to the area twice since 2012 and have enjoyed every single minute of it.

If the PRC think that india can be bullied in this region then I have the great wall if China to sell to the Politburo in Beijing.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby DrRatnadip » 09 Aug 2017 22:32

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:Surgical instruments we import from pakistan

Saw them in the UK in 1980s. Never seen one in India

Most of surgical instruments i am using including laparoscopic instrument are assembled in India with parts made in pakistan .. Though situation is changing fast..

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby vijaykarthik » 09 Aug 2017 22:45

pankajs wrote:http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/doklams-unintended-consequence-sikkim-standoff-china-india-narendra-modi-xi-jinping-4786837/
Raja Mandala: Doklam’s unintended consequence

[i]
One of the unintended consequences for China from the Doklam crisis would be an India that is forced to think far more strategically about coping with China’s power. For nearly a century, sentimentalism in Delhi about Asian solidarity and anti imperialism masked the more structural contradictions with China. Beijing’s approach to the Doklam crisis could well help bury those illusions.
[/quote]

Its an opportune time for us to think of alternative strategies. We need to do a Bangladesh now. I was never a person who believed in splitting a nation but I guess we all overcome that stage and move on.

The time is now. The next 5 years should define us. Russia did a Crimea. And the world didn't really accept but didn't question.

Time to do a Tibet and Aksai Chin/Hind. And everything in between.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby kumarn » 09 Aug 2017 22:54

ramana wrote:India moved 3 DIV of Sukna 33 corps three months ago.


3 months or 3 weeks? That's curious coming from you ramana ji. Please clarify, if you can!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 09 Aug 2017 23:05

UlanBatori wrote:schinnasji:
In your assessment of reptilean forces, u did not include the long-range bomber fleet. Inside 10 hours of an order, they can reach the Himalayan border from their bases nearer the coast, with missiles and bombs. I suppose they are usually loaded for bigger targets such as ships, but I am sure the Chinese have other ways to fill them as well. For instance, those little things that are parachuted when a warhead bursts, floating down listening for tank and jeep engines. There are no tall trees in the area to stop them. This is a deadly "vertical descent" capability.


Sir, please don't ji me.

We have stationed some Brahmos vertical descent batteries near Tawang and I hope in Sikkim as well. Most of our camps in Sikkim near border areas are placed in locations that are naturally fortified. But not the major cantonments in Gangtok and all the way to Siliguri.

Camps naturally behind peaks would be protected from traditional projectiles that take parabolic path but this whole vertical descent thingy is new...it's accuracy, error probability, etc., are all an un-known commodity in real world Himalayan conditions.

Longer term, I wish we move to a reduced man power model near border areas.

Regarding the parachute cluster bombs you mentioned, what seekers do they use?

India needs to increase range of Brahmos like yesterday and order several regiments of it, both land based and air based.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby rsingh » 09 Aug 2017 23:11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip60jufsWM
Look at the fear on PLA officers.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby sampat » 09 Aug 2017 23:41

in past few years, chinis have actually won silver and bronze in tank biathlon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_biathlon

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2017 00:07

kumarn wrote:
ramana wrote:India moved 3 DIV of Sukna 33 corps three months ago.


3 months or 3 weeks? That's curious coming from you ramana ji. Please clarify, if you can!


It's reported by Quint. And in twitter

https://twitter.com/DivyaSoti/status/895155576413540357
Twitter
Divya Kumar Soti
India Has Moved All 3 Divisions Of Sukna-Based 33 Corps to India-China Border https://t.co/R0HhwlXlcM


I had asked our folks to please, please post information and reports here. Instead, we get bokwas Chinese stories to spread FUD. and claims of only trying to get other side stories.
Even senior members post tear gas stories and claim it's out pf-box. Sure out of box is good but not out of the universe.


Many folks are caucusing on Telegram as Forum is getting lots of noise despite many attempts.


Chola interest of sanity I am banning you for a week as you refuse to learn.

Others will get more severe bans.

ramana

admin hat on

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Aug 2017 01:08

schinnas: Acoustic sensors. They listen for tank engines and other engines. So they are equivalent to aerially delivered landmines in that they may hang around on trees, or hit a mobile regiment while they think they are quietly creeping through a valley. Used in Afghanistan.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Aug 2017 01:13

But I came here to post about the convergence of events between the west and east of China.
Americans are flat-out threatening - and the threat is that if there are more threats, the US will attack. This is triggered by threat of missile attack leveled at Guam.
IOW, NoKo has to shut up or face attack. Very interesting. Mattis has no right to threaten regime change unless authorized by Naranja Bandar - in fact some would say COTUS.

How long has Dear Mouth been known to keep shut? If they issue another threat, and US does nothing, "paper tiger" taunts will rise. Costs are mounting: note V-22 crash from a US carrier off Australia, 3 dead, 23 fished out of water.

Mattis is directly threatening massive attack or calling for internal regime change - or cheen-induced regime change. What induced the fools to directly threaten Guam?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 10 Aug 2017 01:21

Even if Dear Mouth does miraculously keep shut this time, what are the chances of a Ding Dong Chalabi type speaking up and saying the "wrong" thing, if you get my meaning?

Remember Ahmed Chalabi of "free Iraqis will welcome US liberators" fame? How Cheney, Rumsfeld etc doted on him until it was too late?

What are the chances that Trump Sour Car is getting advice from just such a Ding Dong Chalabi type re: NoKo capabilities? Perhaps such an individual is in the pay of Beijing, or Moscow?

One potential Ding Dong Chalabi candidate was offed by NoKo agents in Malaysia recently, no? I am sure there are others, including one or more in WHOTUS.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 10 Aug 2017 01:29

If US f...s up in NoKo mucho grande as they did in ME, and then retreats from the W. Pacific theater in humiliation as they did from ME/N. Africa/C. Asia, PRC emerges a HUGE winner. As Iran and Turkey did post Saddam.Think about it.
Last edited by Rudradev on 10 Aug 2017 01:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Aug 2017 01:30

Why relevant here? Other than obvious linkage with world events, if DT launches missiles, Eleven faces increased pressure from those calling him a chicken.


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