Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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NRao
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Sep 2014 04:57

Q: At the same time given that the Americans, have started preliminary studies on sixth generation fighters, and are producing their second fifth generation fighter, what is the status of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project?

Avinash Chander: AMCA is going to be a fifth plus generation aircraft. Once again, the design is getting completed. And we are making a detailed feasibility study which has to get accepted. Broad parameters and configuration have been generally agreed upon. We are looking to complete this part within a year or two and then move further.

Q: But Dr Chander don't you think the engine issue could become an impediment to quick progress on this program as well?

Avinash Chander: For the moment, we are planning to import the engine, either through a joint development or through an agreement. In any system today, it is impossible to have a zero foreign exchange component. What matters is the IP of the total aircraft, which is Indian. In that there will be components that you might be buying from elsewhere, because it is more cost effective. There are ICs that you will be buying anyway, but what you make with those ICs is ultimately your system, your design.

Q: But in the defence domain there are operational security considerations...

Avinash Chander: Well, as far as the engine is concerned, yes. But then that is where you have to have a certain relationship, certain equations. And you have to see over a period of time, as to how to secure your supply line. It may be through purchase, it may be through setting up a parallel line, through some in house activities. But once you see the process... then the solutions also evolve.


Do the permutation combinations on that topic.

Not too many players out there. That is, if one is really serious and does not want to risk delays, insecure supply chain, run the risk of older techs creeping in into the proposed engine, promises of the greatest and delivery of something else. Add other good, bad, ugly.

Do the math for yourself.

However, the critical question is what does the IAF want.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Sep 2014 05:09

NRao wrote:
Q: At the same time given that the Americans, have started preliminary studies on sixth generation fighters, and are producing their second fifth generation fighter, what is the status of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project?

Avinash Chander: AMCA is going to be a fifth plus generation aircraft. Once again, the design is getting completed. And we are making a detailed feasibility study which has to get accepted. Broad parameters and configuration have been generally agreed upon. We are looking to complete this part within a year or two and then move further.

Q: But Dr Chander don't you think the engine issue could become an impediment to quick progress on this program as well?

Avinash Chander: For the moment, we are planning to import the engine, either through a joint development or through an agreement. In any system today, it is impossible to have a zero foreign exchange component. What matters is the IP of the total aircraft, which is Indian. In that there will be components that you might be buying from elsewhere, because it is more cost effective. There are ICs that you will be buying anyway, but what you make with those ICs is ultimately your system, your design.

Q: But in the defence domain there are operational security considerations...

Avinash Chander: Well, as far as the engine is concerned, yes. But then that is where you have to have a certain relationship, certain equations. And you have to see over a period of time, as to how to secure your supply line. It may be through purchase, it may be through setting up a parallel line, through some in house activities. But once you see the process... then the solutions also evolve.


Do the permutation combinations on that topic.

Not too many players out there. That is, if one is really serious and does not want to risk delays, insecure supply chain, run the risk of older techs creeping in into the proposed engine, promises of the greatest and delivery of something else. Add other good, bad, ugly.

Do the math for yourself.

However, the critical question is what does the IAF want.


Dunno about the math. Assume you mean extrapolation.

"Add other good, bad, ugly."

OK, so using the "Sergio Leone deductive":

1. GE-F414 EPE to ~28K thrust
2, GE-RR F136 (Meh)
3. PW-F135

#3 will come with an order of ~60 JSF on FMS basis if it all.

Else, we on BRF have grist for the mill for another decade :)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 Sep 2014 05:42

By "math" I mean the entire picture.

Well ........................

1) What does IAF want? Key - ASR.

2) I would like to see what Modi ji manages on his trip - serious side of (not that silly MSG stuff)

This should take some time. Engines are no-joke stuff.

Let us see what happens.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 23 Sep 2014 03:09

Cosmo_R wrote:
SaiK wrote:If I read the news reports right, the contract for GE 414 IN version is for local production/assembly. This is one place where they can hit hard.. especially when pakis wag on the border.


You're right about the sanctionability but I differ on the trigger. It is not an Indo-pak war but a nuke test. In this event, more than just the F414 is at stake. The upcoming Indo-Japanese nuke deal is predicated on no nuke tests.


Assuming we do carry out a series of nuclear tests, let alone the imposition of automatic sanctions, even basic nuclear trade with the US isn't going to stop. Just a set of year long 'consultations' by the end of which people will have mostly forgotten about them. The Indian side is trying to get the Japanese to sign a deal with the same terms and conditions.



Ahead of Monday’s summit talks, Indian and Japanese negotiators were working till late on Sunday night to conclude the civilian nuclear deal. The Indian negotiators are staying at a hotel located near the Japanese Foreign Ministry and PM Abe’s offices.

Sources told The Indian Express that Delhi wants Tokyo to accept the “Indo-US nuclear deal template”. As per that template, in case of a nuclear test, the two countries must hold consultations for a year and then decide on termination.


Link

BTW, if push came to shove and unkil felt particularly strongly, even the Rafale will be delayed just like the Frenchies delayed the Mistrale to Russia and it had a ~30% Russian component.

You can't live with unkil and you can't live without unkil. The Israelis though have found a way.


Given the sort of losses the US military has sustained at the hands of ISI-backed groups, they have zero love lost for Pakistan. For the moment with troops still deployed in Afghanistan they have little option but to grit their teeth and play along. Also, they'll continue to have an interest in ensuring the Pakistani nuclear arsenal remains dormant. But that's where they're willingness ends. More important is the China front where neither Russia nor France have any interest in crossing China while the US is also gearing up for geopolitical tussle in East Asia in concert with its allies.

One thing I will say about China, though, is you also have to be pretty firm with them, because they will push as hard as they can until they meet resistance. - Obama, interview with the Economist

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 23 Sep 2014 04:34

Aditya_V wrote:Philip, the M-2000 was in production in 2004 and thats the aircraft IAF wanted, before UPA raised the bogey of corruption and single supplier and created the MMRCA circus, rather than negotiating and acquiring 126 M-2000-5/9's. Net result what could have been an under USD 10 Billion with India acquiring around 90 aircraft by now.


AFAIK the RFI for the MMRCA was first issued in 2001 under the NDA govt, to four companies (LM, Saab, MiG & Dassault). To be fair though the whole thing devolved into a mess when the UPA govt allowed Dassault to replace the Mirage-2000 entry with the Rafale which opened the door for the Eurofighter and Super Hornet making the whole competition an absurdity.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 23 Sep 2014 05:04

NRao wrote:By "math" I mean the entire picture.

Well ........................

1) What does IAF want? Key - ASR.

...


Strategically, the IAF should be told what it needs to be able to do. Then, the IAF should describe the kind of capability it needs to be able to deliver.

In the absence of of the first, the IAF has evolved this doctrine of light/medium/heavy etc, for all contingencies.

Frankly, it's not rocket science: you need to be able to deliver hurt on the enemy at the lowest cost to yourself.

No Immelman turns, no scarfs, no Snoopy stuff.

The IAF has not been told what the job is and is happy to go for a bigger share of the pie.

One thing I would love is a rethink of what a military is post mess hall (Poona Horse) , coat of arms, senior service and all that. Beyond starched camo uniforms, RayBan glasses , doing the Blue Angels walk and blue water stuff.

I would like to think it is a set of platforms to meet varying threat degrees. And the ability to respond asymmetrically (if you attack us in Arunachal, our subs will attack Shanghai or whatever.)

This whole army/af/navy setup is old fashioned. We really ought use use scarce resources to manage threats on a theater basis with a combined IA//IAF/IN force

This is the crux of the US air/sea/land battle doctrine.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 23 Sep 2014 06:10

Cosmo_R wrote:This is the crux of the US air/sea/land battle doctrine.


well ..............................

US is marching to a totally different beat. I am not sure who can catch up. As an example: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5754&p=1720622#p1720622

So, it is back to what the IAF wants. Really wants.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 23 Sep 2014 08:21

To be fair to the Russkies,support for Russian aircraft has vastly improved with statements from the CoAS,etc.Several desi cos are now in the support/MRO market and even the MKI is approaching manufacture from 100% locally sourced material.MIG-29 engines are already being manufactured locally.The support is on the upswing not in the opposite direction.

The problem with the IAF is that they're behaving like a bunch of teenagers at the liquor shop who turn their noses up at Bangalore Beer,Stoli vodka,and Absolut,wanting to drink only French champagne and XO cognac,when all they have in their pockets are a few bucks and can only afford country arrack!
Uncles Modi and Jet Li are being turned to to wet their willies!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 23 Sep 2014 09:44

Philip wrote:To be fair to the Russkies....

....The problem with the IAF is that they're behaving like a bunch of teenagers.....
....Uncles Modi and Jet Li are being turned to to wet their willies!


Start being fair to the country you should be fair to. Your wisdom on teenage is that of a teenager. How about the fact that you are trying to turn everyone to wet your willies.

You may have years of arm chair experience but trying to name folks because they did not think like you... pathetic. Look at the IAF inventory and check the Russki wares on it. There are folks who lived their entire career on russki stuff. And then, they don't want it anymore.

The problem with 'You' is that you don't know enough.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 23 Sep 2014 23:08

Aditya_V wrote:Philip, the M-2000 was in production in 2004 and thats the aircraft IAF wanted, before UPA raised the bogey of corruption and single supplier and created the MMRCA circus, rather than negotiating and acquiring 126 M-2000-5/9's. Net result what could have been an under USD 10 Billion with India acquiring around 90 aircraft by now.

All IAF combat acquisions 1990-2010 have been strange.
1. We never sought to increase the Mirage-2000 in substantial numbers, even 99-04 when NDA was in power inspite of its performance in Kargil. But we want Rafale, essentially a successor to Mirage as a second line fighter in numbers
2. We never sought to increase Mig29 numbers or go for Mig35 which would have been easier for us to absorb. Instead we went for the larger Su30MKI. At least we got those in good numbers.

Aditya_V wrote:Thats why I think it seems UPA was working towards defanging India. Remember in Kargil we had a grand total 4 Prithvi and 1 Agni missile with no orders, it was then 300 Prithvi missile production was ordered. Similarly, Barak-1, 155mm shell indegenous manufacture and whole of host crtitical requirements were sidelined. Only C-130 and C-17 non lethal acquisition was given priority.

Even BJP made a major blunder by not going for Mirage 2000s in greater numbers post Kargil. There would not have been any need for MMRCA if they had done that. It is the ideal second line fighter-bomber to complement the high end Su30. 200 each plus Mig/Jag numbers are enough to keep IAF in good shape till we induct LCA in good numbers.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srai » 24 Sep 2014 09:26

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:...
All IAF combat acquisions 1990-2010 have been strange.
1. We never sought to increase the Mirage-2000 in substantial numbers, even 99-04 when NDA was in power inspite of its performance in Kargil. But we want Rafale, essentially a successor to Mirage as a second line fighter in numbers
2. We never sought to increase Mig29 numbers or go for Mig35 which would have been easier for us to absorb. Instead we went for the larger Su30MKI. At least we got those in good numbers.

...


1990s were hard-times for the Indian Armed forces as a whole. You can call it a lost-decade for the armed forces. This had more to do with state of the Indian economy.

Original plan in the 1980s was to license manufacture 106 Mirage-2000 after inducting 40 units directly from France. But there was no budget to do that. There were reports that the IAF did setup infrastructure to support a fleet of around 150 Mirage-2000s. Maybe that explains the high serviceability rates of the IAF's Mirage-2000s.

As for the MiG-29s, IAF got them hot-off a new production line in Soviet Union for a bunch of bananas and other bartering items. Soviets may not have agreed to a license manufacture deal because back then this was a brand-new "equivalent" rival to the US F-16/15/18 series and would probably have wanted cash as well. Like a lot of Soviet/Russian products, the IAF discovered that it was very cheap to buy but the lifecycle costs and serviceability rates were atrocious. The IAF more or less switched over to the Su-30MKIs in the 2000s.

Between 2000-2010 is when the IAF wanted to shore up its numbers for the Mirage-2000s with the license production of 126 units. This was overruled by GoI and instead transpired as the MMRCA competition, which has dragged on for a decade now.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 24 Sep 2014 10:23

Deejay,cool down,don't get personal.Facts are facts.You may have your viewpoints,I have mine,based upon my info and contacts within the service. Of course the IAF do not want to fly aging Soviet era fighters like MIG-21s anymore ,which as I've been saying for aeons are being kept in the air miraculously somehow through Indian innovation and ingenuity.Last yr. the former CoAS ACM Browne celebrated the type completing over 50 years of service.But they cannot fly forever,why the MMRCA requirement came up also due to the heavily delayed induction of the LCA which was meant to replace our MIG-21 inventory.The failure of the LCA programme to meet its deadlines and service induction,FOC yet to materialise for the underpowered Mk-1,is now causing much heartburn and has created a crisis for the IAF which is short on both numbers and enhanced capability required to deal with the Sino-Pak JV against India.

Which aircraft is the backbone of the IAF today? The MKI.No doubts about that.If the MIG-29 was so useless,and in IAF faceoffs with the M-2000 when they were inducted,they won every combat exercise (AM Masand in Vayu),why they are all being upgraded giving a completely new capability from the basic version at a fraction of the price that that of the M-2000.Around $1B for 60+,vs $2.5B for 40+ M-2000s.New 29Ks for the IN were bought for s$32M a piece.They are perhaps the most cost-effective aircraft to acquire to keep numbers happy.The 29UG upgrades are going smoothly,engines being built in India.The Aug 14 of VAYU has more details about MKI dev. for the future.The aim according to Sukhoi is to give the IAF what it wants to increase its strike capability with the integration of BMos. and upgraded avionics,etc.The entire fleet of MKIs will be further upgraded and MRO faciltiies established in India so that no aircraft need go abroad for any purpose.MKI production is within a couple of years to be made entirely from (100%) local materials,current figures are 70%.

With a shrinking budget,little money in the kitty, If you read some earlier posts,one option that the IAF is considering is acquiring more MKIs if the Rafale deal collapses ,What are the GOI/IAF's other options? Perhaps you could give us your ideas.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RoyG » 24 Sep 2014 10:34

Su-30mki is the only option and more funding and private participation in the LCA program.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 24 Sep 2014 13:33

Rafale deal may be signed by Dec
Indian government’s contract negotiation committee (CNC) for the medium, multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA), Rafale, has been given the draft contract document by the French aircraft manufacturer, Dassault. A top level Indian Air Force (IAF) source, while confirming this, said that they expect that the deal could be signed by December this year.
Long in negotiations, the contract is in the final stages of price fixing, the official said. According to him, the CNC will arrive at two prices at the end of talks. One will be ‘direct’ price, which will be actual cost of whole 126 aircraft the IAF plans to get – 18 in flyaway condition directly from Dassault, and 108 produced under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).The other is Life Cycle Costing (LCC), which will cover the whole life of the aircraft in service with the IAF. This would include maintenance cost, overhauling costs among others. [...]
The other key element of the deal is the licence manufacture deal between Dassault and the HAL. There were large number of issues that were technology related. A senior HAL source stated: ‘Now those issues have been boiled down to two or three. They would also be taken care of soon.’
One gets a sense from all these conversations, that the IAF has got a signal from the political leadership of the government that it is now on more than ‘a wing and a prayer’. In other words, the force has got a green signal from the government to go ahead with the deal.[...]

From:
http://www.millenniumpost.in/NewsContent.aspx?NID=70065

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 24 Sep 2014 13:59

@Phillip, me I am cool. Most of your posts deal with arguments towards your POV. That's fine.

Now look at my post and what I have quoted from your post. IMO, those are adjectives which were not needed and personalised against a group. You obviously did not enjoy a personalised attack, then why should you use negative descriptors like 'teenagers' and 'wet their willies' all the while being fair to Ruskis. You reap what you sow. So, I hope you see my POV.

You are welcome to your opinion but name calling will get you just that in return. Best we stick to arguments concerning the thread or we can expect pee ech dees in disrespect towards differing viewpoints - which I think is a very Baki quality.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 24 Sep 2014 14:02

RoyG wrote:Su-30mki is the only option and more funding and private participation in the LCA program.


Drastically Increasing the number of Su-30MKI beyond the 272 planned for would make IAF fleet Top Heavy and expensive to operate over its life cycle , Increasing LCA Mk1 is one way forward.

One option would be to cut the Rafale purchase to 75 Aircraft and procure 40 more Mk1 for now and 30 more MKI

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 24 Sep 2014 19:16

I was also trying to push for a couple of squadrons of Mig-29UPG's.
I know its not as good in some maintainability aspects but I can not see them inferior on any specifications to the upgraded Vajras. The Ks we got for IN are pretty reasonable priced for the capability.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28476 » 25 Sep 2014 04:21

Some today's news from France, some directly related, others not.
A "Rafale escadre" (two or more squadrons) will be created next year in Mont de Marsan. Basically what it means is that two nuke B SQds will be stationed in St Dizier and 2 mono in Mont de Marsan.
Not very interesting to indian ppl i guess, but it had some consequences when talking to pilots.
Rafale C can do what RAfale B can, although with more workload and therefore in a slowlier way. Procedures do exist so as to.
Typhoon exchange pilot is "VERY satisfied with his present mount". Regrets (but normal) all systems aren't open to him.
SATCOM is fully qualified for french forces on Mirage 2000 by CEAM. On RAfale, hardware is ok, but CEAM is finalizing solutions (which satcoms to choose as an example).
DEDIRA prototype did well and is atm tested by EPAGE ("EW sqd)
Seen some interesting features during serpentex exercise, as an data umplink from FAC/TOC/etc. data to plane giving him fused data on ground situation.
These data are sent to a specific small computer on plane, and can be shown on pilots leg computer. All in all, progresses in DACAS.
Rafale with three 1000L supersonic tanks can supercruise, but will need PC boost on trnasonic (or loose altitude). With one supersonic tank and some micas, no prob, but what to do for? (in french context, our country is small so supercruise is not so useful).
Rafale squadrons are "phasing". Possibilities are too wide to stay expert if you do not. So they have to stay lets say 3 months on A2G training, 3 months on A2A etc.
Lost of IR channel in OSF IT is well... Bad but not so bad. Too many false alerts on former IR. MICA and DDM are doing the job, all in all, security bubble did not disminish that much and positive ID possibilities are awesome. DDM NG is doing the job for 360° IR .
Shooting a M2K RDI passively without the help of any datalink at 20 NM in 6 o'clock (as stated to me by Vianney Riller Jr) perfectly possible, of course depending on circumstances.
"Alliance" system is great, but i wont tell you what it is before my article for defesanet is published (think about a "reverse" rover)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 26 Sep 2014 00:10

Philip wrote:Deejay,cool down,don't get personal.Facts are facts.


Facts are indeed facts, but your statement about MiG-29K being $32 million each isn't a fact.

The follow-on order for the MiG-29K in 2010 was valued at $1.2 bn which would put the unit cost at about $42 mil each. According to the MiG CEO the cost was actually $1.5 bn putting the MiG-29K at $52 mil each.

In either case, for a contract signed in 2015-16, the MiG-35's unit cost will likely be in excess of $60 million. The Tejas Mk1 is still far and way the better option for a low cost aircraft to make up the numbers.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Surya » 26 Sep 2014 04:53

@deejay
The problem with 'You' is that you don't know enough.


even less but its a waste of time to point out

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 03 Oct 2014 10:53

Another shot across the bow from Bharat Karnad.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns/Impending-MMRCA-Waste/2014/10/03/article2459932.ece

So fending off pressure from the Indian Air Force (IAF) and European states on medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) should be easy, especially because favouring the French Rafale aircraft or the German Eurofighter is likely to permanently tar the reputation of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party as the Bofors gun scam did the Congress party. A boondoggle lurks just below the MMRCA decision and requires, not finalising, but scrutiny by the Central Bureau of Investigation.

The MMRCA was conceived by the IAF brass as means of procuring Western aircraft under the rubric of “diversifying supply sources”. The deficiencies in the MMRCA concept and the Rafale aircraft and deal have been analysed in my previous writings. But how supplier states brazenly play a con game using transfer of technology (TOT) provisions with the full connivance and complicity of the ministry of defence and services headquarters is astonishing and has, so far, gone unnoticed. An egregious example is that Dassault, as part of the Rafale contract, has promised gallium nitride (GaN) technology to make semi-conductor chips utilised in high-powered avionics but refused to part with technology for the foundries to fabricate the chips! India will thus pay through its nose for technology that cannot be converted into a component, which will end up being imported for the lifetime of the aircraft.


Interesting revelations may tumble out if CBI inquired into how, why, and by whom the MMRCA decisions were crafted. In the early 2000s, as a “stop gap” measure a decision was taken to acquire 12 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft with 85 per cent of its life still remaining from Qatar, which had acquired them from France in 1997. The tripartite deal, involving aircraft producer Dassault, was struck in April 2005 for $600 million, including a stock of 500 air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles. It was aborted a few months later when IAF headed by Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi arbitrarily slashed its offer to $375 million. The decision by a protesting Qatar to back out of the deal was used to conjure up the entirely novel MMRCA requirement and push for global tender, which Dassault hoped to win and, surprise! surprise!, did.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Oct 2014 11:59

Dr. BK is a patriot...if you have a problem with his opinion, please feel free to refute them point by point. just because you dont agree with his conclusion, don't diss the whole article. He has access to way way more information that what we all can even imagine.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 03 Oct 2014 13:57

Why are you being so defensive and touchy ? Since when did "shot across the bow" become equivalent to calling BK as unpatriotic ? Go over my previous posts in this same forum and understand what I think about the MMRCA.

If you don't have a factual analysis or have nothing else to contribute, go troll some other thread

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Oct 2014 14:30

Sorry for not replying to posts, but if one goes through History for various reasons, from Pokran, Infrastructure mess and Gujarat earthquake, we had economic problems and the additional M-2000-5/9 orders were delayed, it was the UPA which rejected the single vendor basis and opened up the MMRCA, Ithink during 10 years tenure they added 20 ordewrs for LCA and 50 to the SU-30, 29 additional Mig 29K for the Navy along with Mig-29 and M-2000 upgrades.

This was a mess up of monumental propotions along with the artillery, Not ordering torperdos etc while importing Italian Baretta sub machine guns and what not.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 03 Oct 2014 15:48

http://www.forceindia.net/Interview_ArupRaha.aspx

Interview with Air Chief

What is holding up the signing of the MMRCA contract? What is plan-B to make the combat strength?

Contract negotiations were being carried out by the CNC through four sub-committees. Three CNC sub-committees negotiating ‘Maintenance’, ‘Offset’ and ‘Transfer of Technology’ have completed their negotiations and submitted their reports. The Contract sub-committee has resolved most of the contractual aspects with the representatives of Dassault Aviation and HAL. Certain pending issues will be resolved soon and a contract signed after obtaining CCS approval. No alternatives are being considered as MMRCA induction is part of IAF’s Long Term Perspective Plan based on capabilities required in the long term, the envisaged technology drivers and the threat scenarios in the future.

How many combat squadrons will the air force have by 2017? What is the minimum requirement given the two fronts, in the west and the east?

By 2017, IAF would have less than the existing 35 fighter squadrons. Our minimum requirement remains 45 squadrons.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Malayappan » 03 Oct 2014 18:31

Did Germany Try To Sell Us A Lemon?

From Swarajyamag
Fighter jet maker Eurofighter’s plans to sneak in through the backdoor looks set to backfire.

Just last month, both German ambassador in India, Michael Steiner and his boss, German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier confidently told members of the German media that ‘negotiations with India are still on’.....

But media reports in Europe—which, perhaps due to language issues, have hardly been picked up in the Indian media—raise the disconcerting question: Have EADS and the Germans been trying to sell India a lemon all through?

Quoting the German army’s website, the report in German magazine Focus on Tuesday reported that a ‘large number of manufacturing flaws’ were discovered in the tail of the Euro-fighter during a routine inspection. Though the manufacturer EADS assured that the flaws in the tail did not compromise flight safety, they immediately reduced the ‘down-time’ (the permissible flying hours till the next inspection), from 3,000 to 1,500, citing they were doing so as an ‘additional safety precaution’. Even then and in order ‘to avoid disadvantages and in the protection of its own interests’, the German army ‘decided not to accept delivery of any more Eurofighters for the time being’.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_26622 » 03 Oct 2014 21:50

If Eurofighter is having so many developmental issues then wonder how will PAKFA fare?

Any time a buyer has very little leverage or influence over a supplier and is locked in to a monopolistic situation, there will be price gouging. Just look at price inflation on SU-30 MKI. Local manufacturing should have dropped prices but we are paying 50~100% more on follow on orders. TOT is Bullsh*t.

By the end of PAKFA saga we will be paying Russia 100 Billion $$$ >>> 1/3rd of our wealth. I have to admit that Chinese have figured this out far better and earlier than us.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 03 Oct 2014 22:48

Viv S wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Philip, the M-2000 was in production in 2004 and thats the aircraft IAF wanted, before UPA raised the bogey of corruption and single supplier and created the MMRCA circus, rather than negotiating and acquiring 126 M-2000-5/9's. Net result what could have been an under USD 10 Billion with India acquiring around 90 aircraft by now.


AFAIK the RFI for the MMRCA was first issued in 2001 under the NDA govt, to four companies (LM, Saab, MiG & Dassault). To be fair though the whole thing devolved into a mess when the UPA govt allowed Dassault to replace the Mirage-2000 entry with the Rafale which opened the door for the Eurofighter and Super Hornet making the whole competition an absurdity.

ViV, the MMRCA RFI was issued by the UPA in 2004, this after they made Tyagi do a Naatak Nautanki about the Qataari M2Ks. Dr. BK has written a lot about what happened behind the scene which is also documented in BRF MMRCA Dhagas.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20292 » 03 Oct 2014 23:27

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Philip, the M-2000 was in production in 2004 and thats the aircraft IAF wanted, before UPA raised the bogey of corruption and single supplier and created the MMRCA circus, rather than negotiating and acquiring 126 M-2000-5/9's. Net result what could have been an under USD 10 Billion with India acquiring around 90 aircraft by now.

All IAF combat acquisions 1990-2010 have been strange.
1. We never sought to increase the Mirage-2000 in substantial numbers, even 99-04 when NDA was in power inspite of its performance in Kargil. But we want Rafale, essentially a successor to Mirage as a second line fighter in numbers
2. We never sought to increase Mig29 numbers or go for Mig35 which would have been easier for us to absorb. Instead we went for the larger Su30MKI. At least we got those in good numbers.

Aditya_V wrote:Thats why I think it seems UPA was working towards defanging India. Remember in Kargil we had a grand total 4 Prithvi and 1 Agni missile with no orders, it was then 300 Prithvi missile production was ordered. Similarly, Barak-1, 155mm shell indegenous manufacture and whole of host crtitical requirements were sidelined. Only C-130 and C-17 non lethal acquisition was given priority.

Even BJP made a major blunder by not going for Mirage 2000s in greater numbers post Kargil. There would not have been any need for MMRCA if they had done that. It is the ideal second line fighter-bomber to complement the high end Su30. 200 each plus Mig/Jag numbers are enough to keep IAF in good shape till we induct LCA in good numbers.




is it just me that thinks that the LCA and 2000 are the same class and competitors?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 04 Oct 2014 02:16

srin wrote:Why are you being so defensive and touchy ? Since when did "shot across the bow" become equivalent to calling BK as unpatriotic ? Go over my previous posts in this same forum and understand what I think about the MMRCA.

If you don't have a factual analysis or have nothing else to contribute, go troll some other thread
Srin, it was you who had a problem with BK's article, or where you extolling it? I think not..
I didn't say you accused him of being un-patriotic, I only gave my opinion about BK.
you might be MMRCA's biggest champion, your views on that was not the subject of my post or your rebuttal. I will give my factual analysis on BK's article when I want to or have time for it. last but not the least, dont accused me of being a troll. I don't...

I was neither defensive or touchy...i just mentioned, that BK is on the inside and if he writes something like that, he has a very very valid for that.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2014 02:58

shot across the bows = challenge...

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+s ... ss+the+bow

he was not criticising BK

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Avarachan » 04 Oct 2014 06:37

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:All IAF combat acquisions 1990-2010 have been strange.
1. We never sought to increase the Mirage-2000 in substantial numbers, even 99-04 when NDA was in power inspite of its performance in Kargil. But we want Rafale, essentially a successor to Mirage as a second line fighter in numbers
2. We never sought to increase Mig29 numbers or go for Mig35 which would have been easier for us to absorb. Instead we went for the larger Su30MKI. At least we got those in good numbers.


The strangeness, as you term it, has been caused by two factors.

1) The desire to protect the LCA project.
2) The geo-politics related to the nuclear test in 1998.

I often hear people say that "the Indian government has no sense of strategy," etc. But if one keeps all of the relevant factors in mind, it's clear that the Indian government does have a long-term strategy. The first priority of that strategy is to preserve India's strategic autonomy.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 04 Oct 2014 09:13

mahadevbhu wrote:
is it just me that thinks that the LCA and 2000 are the same class and competitors?


LCA (4+ gen) > M2K (4 Gen), though both are single engined and delta winged with similar design features (appearance). They will definitely compete with a lot of khujli from the M2K flyboys. Ha, Ha, Ha. I am looking forward to that one.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby svinayak » 04 Oct 2014 10:00

Avarachan wrote:I often hear people say that "the Indian government has no sense of strategy," etc. But if one keeps all of the relevant factors in mind, it's clear that the Indian government does have a long-term strategy. The first priority of that strategy is to preserve India's strategic autonomy.

Not only there is a strategy but group of countries have come together to make sure that is no one dominant power.
India has ensured a multi-polar world.
Rafele has a place in the multi polar world

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 04 Oct 2014 19:04

deejay wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:
is it just me that thinks that the LCA and 2000 are the same class and competitors?


LCA (4+ gen) > M2K (4 Gen), though both are single engined and delta winged with similar design features (appearance). They will definitely compete with a lot of khujli from the M2K flyboys. Ha, Ha, Ha. I am looking forward to that one.

We should have a through comparison wrt AoA, Radar, available weapons, Payload, and price to establish this or not.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20292 » 04 Oct 2014 23:31

since m2k was the original mmrca and the LCA equals or betters it, we should cancel the mmrca and build LCA s.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 06 Oct 2014 13:07

Manufacturing issue with the Typhoon on the rear fuselage may impact its service life..not good news at all for Typhoon operators..

Eurofighters hit by manufacturing issue

A manufacturing issue has been discovered in the rear fuselage of all Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft that could cause future structural problems for the aircraft and limit their service life.

There appears to be no immediate impact on aircraft airworthiness however, with several nations expressing to IHS Jane's that their Eurofighter aircraft remained fully operational and were facing no immediate safety issues. The main concern is that the issue could limit the aircraft's service life.

However, Germany, Spain and Italy have all ceased accepting deliveries of the aircraft as a result of the issue - although deliveries to Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom remain unaffected at this point.

Chief executive officer of Eurofighter GmbH, Alberto Gutierrez, stated the group was "actively managing a recently discovered quality issue concerning one of the manufacturing processes used during the assembly of the Eurofighter Typhoon rear fuselage".

The issue is understood to relate specifically to the finishing treatment used on a small number of drilled bolt holes during the assembly of the rear fuselage. This work was conducted by BAE Systems, with the holes not de-burred to specified standards. The manufacturing issue is understood to have already been resolved.


Industry is currently working to evaluate whether the issue will have any impact on the aircraft, and although company sources appear confident that there will be no long-term impact from the issue, a German Ministry of Defence (MoD) source told IHS Jane's that the "quality deficit could possibly be a future source of structural shortcomings". It is expected that the first results of these tests will be available in mid-2015.

"This temporary manufacturing issue has had no impact on the [Royal Air Force's] RAF's allotted flying hours and the Typhoon fleet is continuing normal operations" a spokesperson for the UK MoD told IHS Jane's .

BAE Systems told IHS Jane's that "we continue to deliver aircraft in accordance with contractual requirements and in line with the schedule required by the UK Royal Air Force and the Royal Saudi Air Force".

Speaking to IHS Jane's the German MoD stated: "Currently there are is no damage and therefore flight safety is not affected. Thus our planes are fully operational." However, as a precaution the German MoD has halved the service life of its Eurofighter aircraft from 3,000 to 1,500 flight hours.

...

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 06 Oct 2014 20:27

Avarachan wrote:I often hear people say that "the Indian government has no sense of strategy," etc. But if one keeps all of the relevant factors in mind, it's clear that the Indian government does have a long-term strategy. The first priority of that strategy is to preserve India's strategic autonomy.
Agree with you 10000%, many a times we go to ridiculous lengths to maintain this... be it NAM, blindly aligning ourselves with Arapes, Former SU, being week kneed with Cheen or outright sell-out to Pakees, all these somehow were being spun as being Chanakiyan to maintain our Strategic Autonomy by our Strategic (non) thinkers in the cabinet, MEA etc... only post Pokhran-II and Kargil there has been amount of pragmatism in this. Hence you will see better relationship with Israel, US, Japan, Australia, Far Eastern countries, assertiveness in Afghanistan etc. Mickey Mouse Sing took us back to Nehruvian heights (of folly) but thankfully the institutional momentum initiate under NDA kept him in check for some part (Sharam-El-Sheik not withstanding), hence you see a lot more Track-II, Track-III being played by Pakees when they know the track-I is only going to be Chai-Biskoot by MEA.
with Namo, all these tracks have been dismantled.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Shrinivasan » 06 Oct 2014 20:37

^^^ Even Rafale purchase, Barak SAM, US2 purchases are in line with this Strategic Autonomy. Our insistence on ToT was also along this lines, but our DPSUs not being able to do $h1t with it has made ToT as ToTal waste.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2014 22:24

From the report of the CoAS' comments,it appears that Dassault isn't convinced about HAL's ability to deliver to the high quality stds expected,and take responsibility. Why the negotiations are in limbo.


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