Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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SaiK
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by SaiK »

Sumeet, here is the Carlo Crappo! :)
http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-Rus-VHF-Radar-2008.pdf

Jamming techniques based on active cancellation, where the aircraft emits a
waveform identical but out of phase with the threat radar waveform are likely to be
viable against VHF radars precisely for the same reasons why such radars defeat
stealth shaping in these designs. However, active cancellation has the drawback
of difficult implementation and integration, and potential risks arising from passive
emitter locating systems
So, the raptor's (possible can be included with F35s) passive emitter locating system will make the rafales mincemeat!

it depends on how we deal with it!
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28722 »

Cosmo_R wrote:Don't count on Russia to keep those spare parts for MiG 29s and SU30MKIs in the face of a India - China face-off.

They'll plead supply chain issues to fob us off.
IMHO, If we need to go to another country for spares at the start of a future war again, then we are in bigger trouble. also I don't think we will have a war with PRC till 2030. Himalayas don't exactly make for a great battlefield and in this case we control the mountains.
Cosmo_R wrote: The Rafale EF2K are jokes. Their manufacturers don't want to/can't afford to buy them in quantity. They are the Ambassadors of fighter planes.
This. But IAF needs to scale up the LCA Mk1 order for it to happen.
Cosmo_R wrote: LCA Mk2 + AMCA: choice #1 (forget PAK/FA it's not going to happen)
LCA, yes
Although I would not rule out PAKFA. PLAAF has practically no need for 5th gen tech from scratch and RuAF is not going to get 5th gen if we pull out, they can't afford one on their won
Also is a decade away. Considering that Tejas took a decade from first flight to FOC and another 5 years likely for Mk2, I feel skeptical for keeping a still-on-design plane as choice #1
Cosmo_R wrote: 60- JSF off the shelf + licensed engine production in India and the AMCA built around it. Choice #2
IMHO, 5th gen tech w/o ToT is akin to shooting onself in leg with a shotgun.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:....

IMHO, 5th gen tech w/o ToT is akin to shooting onself in leg with a shotgun.
There is no 'ToT' whether for 4G or 5G only for 'Ambassadors'. Buying 4G Rafale/EF2K is shooting oneself in the head because it robs us of the monies needed to fund lots of stuff that really builds a technology base.

LCA Mk1 + 2 plus AMCA via anyone but HAL.

Plus improved serviceability for MKIs and MiG29s during the interim.

The PRC will pick their time on a war. 2030 or whatever, is not in our hands. They will strike when we are weakest.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by NRao »

An MRO, for the MKI, is being talked about or being set up, in 2014!!!!!

That for a plane being manufactured in India.

It pull 9 G.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

NRao wrote:An MRO, for the MKI, is being talked about or being set up, in 2014!!!!!

That for a plane being manufactured in India.

It pull 9 G.
Per hour

:)
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

At least its being set up and India makes most of the parts inhouse. As versus Khan getting bowel issues over cross LOC stuff and sanctioning India.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

Cosmo_R wrote:
NRao wrote:An MRO, for the MKI, is being talked about or being set up, in 2014!!!!!

That for a plane being manufactured in India.

It pull 9 G.
Per hour

:)
Yeah sure..
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oagZRkX40T8/U ... kulbit.jpg
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

Cosmo_R wrote:http://online.wsj.com/articles/why-russ ... australian

Don't count on Russia to keep those spare parts for MiG 29s and SU30MKIs in the face of a India - China face-off.

They'll plead supply chain issues to fob us off.
Pure speculation. The Russians would rather supply both sides & will not take an overt stance favoring either side.
The Rafale EF2K are jokes. Their manufacturers don't want to/can't afford to buy them in quantity. They are the Ambassadors of fighter planes.
Jokes that beat the F-16/F-18 hollow in MMRCA trials...
Spare parts, weapons and upgrades are going to become a nightmare because the production runs are small.
Somehow not an issue for our Mirages, Jaguars etc
LCA Mk2 + AMCA: choice #1 (forget PAK/FA it's not going to happen)
PAKFA will happen as will the other two.
60- JSF off the shelf + licensed engine production in India and the AMCA built around it. Choice #2
JSF doubtful for the AF, Navy perhaps. But even there Rafale has a greater chance due to logistics commonalities with the AF.
Last edited by Karan M on 09 Oct 2014 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28797 »

Cosmo_R wrote:
NRao wrote:An MRO, for the MKI, is being talked about or being set up, in 2014!!!!!

That for a plane being manufactured in India.

It pull 9 G.
Per hour

:)
Anything to contribute other than trolling? :)
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

@Karan M: Glad you are so sure. You know what you are talking about. I think we can rest easy now. I, for one rely on your reassurance.

No worries
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

[quote="narendranaik"][/quote]

Anything to contribute other than trolling? :)

More than 36 posts of little significance including latest one liner,

Does that answer your question?
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28797 »

Cosmo_R wrote:
narendranaik wrote:
Anything to contribute other than trolling? :)

More than 36 posts of little significance including latest one liner,

Does that answer your question?
Yep, so most of us can discard you as being someone who never writes anything of significance. Thanks for saving my time.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

edited..
Last edited by Karan M on 09 Oct 2014 06:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

I bother about your reassurance because you are so sure.

Take yes for an answer. Someone has to lead and it's you.

Don't degrade your standing with questions like "are you even an Indian national" etc.

It demeans you and I'm sure sure you did not mean it that way.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

Cosmo_R wrote:I bother about your reassurance because you are so sure.

Take yes for an answer. Someone has to lead and it's you.
When I read your post, it came across as sarcasm. If I was mistaken, my apologies.

I am merely pointing out that the Indian Armed forces buy Russian not merely because of cost/corruption/ease of use (as is invariably claimed) - but theres a reliability factor as well. Spares issues do occur (and we all dislike that) but its also a fact that when the chips are down, they do get resolved. The IAFs tough speak has resulted in movement on the Su-30 front (with facilities set up). Whilst you may quite justifiably point out the delays and the problems caused, it comes back to the access to technology (to build local spares). JSF for instance would never be resourced out of India. Question is where do we go. You note (and I wholly agree) that its the LCA/AMCA we need, but till the industrial maturity meets the high demands of teh services, my guess is we will continue to buy Russian. IM(H)O, there is no game in town apart from the PAKFA since the US will never agree to our industrial demands for access to tech (for a mere 300 odd fighters) for a production run of thousands. Their other partners will yell. And of course, sharing stealth/VLO with us, very unlikely.

Similarly, while I am no fan of buying the Rafale for some fancy TOT at exorbitant cost (in that I agree with you whole heartedly), its not exactly an underperformer versus current US types.
Don't degrade your standing with questions like "are you even an Indian national" etc.

It demeans you and I'm sure sure you did not mean it that way.
Yes, i didnt mean it as any patriotism test or the like, I was merely alluding to how ones perception of national requirements is influenced by one's own nationality. Please don't take offence because I meant that it significantly affects how one views things and the risk doesnt factor in.

If for instance, I were a French national, albeit of Indian origin, chances are that I would plug the Rafale and be very fond of it and may discount the attitude sometimes shown by vendors who twist us on price. Similarly, a repeated pattern I have seen amongst many folks who are now in other nations citizenship fold or have extensive residency there, is that they take an overly positive view of the challenges that lie in strategic ties with that country and advocate a firmer relationship, even ignoring the pitfalls and risks for India. Until and unless one's own issues are involved, the matter is often academic. That's all..

PS: Post edited.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by NRao »

ramana wrote:After Modi visit the F-35 is not far fetched.
I do not see the JSF coming, but, I do see a far closer relationship. Much closer than I have thought it would be.

There is still a long way to go, fear on the Indian side and reluctance on the US has to be overcome. But, it will narrow. Over time.

Also to track is the relationship with Japan and Australia. These two have to go hand in hand with that of the US.

I just no longer see sanctions.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Victor »

If there is an India-China face off, do we really expect Russia to play coy and neutral? The prudent view is that very likely they won't be allowed to--by China.

First: Russia needs China a whole lot more than it needs us. There's the small matter of the $400 BILLION gas deal over 30 years that China signed with Russia which the latter needs desperately as the EU reduces its dependence on Russian gas. We don't have anything of strategic value that comes even close on the horizon.

Second: Russia has exported its latest hardware--planes, tanks, guns, missiles, ships, subs--to China in spite of China copying every piece down to the rivets. But they threw a hissy fit and threatened a copyright violation lawsuit when we made a version of their 70-yr old AK47 in small numbers. This in spite of the fact that AK knockoffs were already being made in the hundreds of thousands by a host of 2-bit countries. What a way to treat a "friend".

Third: It whipsawed us on the Vikramaditya contract and told us to take it or go fish on the PAKFA. They're even selling jet engines to the pakis thru the Chinese!

There's a lot more but the above should be enough to give us pause. Our lot is a sad one because we don't make any of our own major arms, not guns, not tanks, not planes, not ships, not subs. We are in the sorry position of being forced to import everything. That being the case, the GoI has already made a major call on our future strategic leaning by choosing the GE F414 for the LCA2, arguably the foundation of our future self-reliance.

Finally, Modi went to Japan first, a staunch US ally, and then he went to the US. There is no plan to go to Russia. Truth be told, I'm extremely curious about Modi ji meeting Boeing's McNerny in NYC for a one-on-one. Why would he do that? He's not the type for idle chit-chat.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

The above is a perfect case of over the top bias resulting in a post high on rhetoric, small on facts. Russia sells more arms to India not China. It gives India the MKI, China the MKK. It works with India on its BMD program, whilst selling PRC the S300PMU series. So.. both countries have needs, Russia shares a border with one & is wary of it (but needs its money & heft), the other is not a threat & also a rising power. Why pick favorites?
If the Vikramaditya contract was a boondoggle, so was the Scorpene. It has not told us to go fish with the PAKFA but is working with India and not even rebutting the FUD appearing in the press lest it be construed as an attack on the IAF.

The previousGOI made a decision, a tactical one, by choosing the Ge414 for the LCA, and truth be told, what other options were there? The EJ200 would have required significant redesign for the LCA & vice versa and was a few Kn behind the 414 to boot.
The same GOI also continued with the Russia first policy in most acquisitions. 300 programs in joint R&D with the Russians. How many with the US.

As regards India not making its arms, all the above agit prop apart, India is well on its way to making many of its systems & is already placing orders for large systems locally whether they be ships or EW or radars or MBRLs or SAMs or choppers. Its sub (with Russian assistance) is the Arihant class.. movement to full platforms across the board is but a step away.

Modi went to Japan because he shares a rapport with Abe & not because he luvs the US.
Modi went to the US to prove a point and its good business.
Ties with Russia are so stable that they endure beyond leaders and so it has been.

Ties with the US remain tactical and will remain so, as long as the US doesn't stop mollycoddling Pak and sponsoring NGOs and missionaries. A staunch hindutva idealogue :P like Modi knows this even as he invites US bijness
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28714 »

Viv S wrote:
George wrote:i put design and engineering in brackets, i did not mean aesthetics. i meant a fat single engine that has to work at above 80% peak power most of its flying time just to keep the aircraft afloat, forget pulling g's. IAF maintenance crews will go nuts keeping that junk in shape.
You can tell from its 'design and engineering' appearance that the aircraft goes into a stall under 80% thrust? (BTW its been tested to 9.9Gs and past 50 deg AoA)

Also for the record, the F-16 has a 'fat single engine' as well, no maintenance issues.
400 million if not inflation adjusted, maybe if we are lucky, i dont think it will be anything under 500 million.
$130M procurement cost. $30K x 8000h = $240M operating cost. The Rafale's cost isn't that much lower especially after accounting for a pricey weapons complement.
why do you keep hinting that I am talking about looks even after I've clarified? Does design and engineering mean appearance to you?ignoring that angle, I will try to maintain decorum and answer.

piss poor T/W ratio without afterburners means the plane is not going to pull any multiple g's at all. I am not just saying this, there are enough graphs out there if you have time to look. in order for the engines to be working on cruise mode, the plane will have to be outside of combat zone. when in combat zone, you are talking near full afterburners to achieve a favourable enough t/w ratio to survive. even in cruise mode, it can barely super cruise and that too for short spurts of about 100 miles. beyond that its afterburners. as soon as afterburners are switched on you are at minimum 75% power.

the f16 comparison is incorrect, the engine is just over half the size of the PWF135 engine. And even so, the f16 still has a favourable t/w ratio, unlike the f 35.

the point is its gonna cost us way way more that 30K per hour for an engine thats run at peak thrust nearly all the time and like I said earlier, you figure of 400 million does not even include mid life upgrade. we paid twice the cost of the original aircraft for some of the MLU's in IAF current inventory.

The F 35 program will cost us easily upwards of 500 million a plane. and thats if the americans dont squeeze our balls on spares.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by darshhan »

Karan M wrote: If the Vikramaditya contract was a boondoggle, so was the Scorpene.
Fully agree. And even bigger boondoggle will be Rafale purchase. As Shri Bharat Karnad stated, this deal has full potential into evolving as Modi Govt's very own BOFORS. To enthusiastic Bhartiya nationalists who are still rooting for Rafale, my suggestion would be ponder over what this(statement of BK) means. The whole deal reeks of stink and has the capability to demolish many political careers including that of Namo. Can we even afford it? Just look at what 2G and Coalgate scam did to Congress. As it is, the ones who still shape the national discourse are staunch enemies of both Bharat and Namo.

Indian Govt and IAF better start looking for alternatives(LCA/Mig 29K/M/UCAV/etc)
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Philip »

The PM is a very pragmatic man.Like Gandhiji and Sardar Patel,both were eminently practical Gujuratis.We needed the vision of Nehru backed up by the Sardar's practicality at the time of Independence.India's stock soared as the leader of the world's former colonies as we threw out the British without firing a shot ,but Netaji used his bayonet to shove up the Brits nether end (the INA and Netataji was the other side of the coin.)! Realising that they were screwed both ways they left with some dignity intact unlike the Yanquis who fled in indecent haste in Vietnam.

The PM needs the economic might of Japan and the US to kickstart the Indian economy.It needs China also to reduce the deficit and keep behaving responsibly on the LAC.Russia is our most important strategic partner.From the PM's statement at the BRICS summit,Indo-Russian relations will not be neglected nut also take an upswing,removing petty obstacles in support of Russian origin weapon systems.On global issues,there is very little difference between the two.The Russians will always see that India has an edge in defence wares sold to us over what is sold to china,as we can be trusted nbot to renege on deals and reverse engineer without permission the same unlike the Chinese copycats.

The Rafale deal will hang fir until the French relent on the cost.If they realise that other options are being considered they will come down in haste.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_20317 »

The Rafale deal will hang fir until the French relent on the cost.If they realise that other options are being considered they will come down in haste.
You are making it sound like Rafale negotiations are a housewife's haggle. India has signed nothing with the French, yet. Till the time the ink dries the options are surely open for India too as much as they are for the French. But making decisions takes time because every hierarchy is waiting for somebody else in the hierarchy to feed some inputs. The only input that can cut the queue is 'NaMo saying No'. And mind you big issues like Shakti have been decided with just 2/3 civies in the know. NaMo is rightly doing his due diligence because he would not like to trust the Babus who have been touched by the last government. Once he is satisfied the trust may be re-established. Despite all the extra workload in a deal which was promoted by the last government and an absent DefMin, he and his close in team are not giving any cause for concern.

Personally I find JSF a murky business for a second grade idea. Murky enough to require large volume of paperwork to bury the queries. And second grade enough, to remain only a notch above, a Class bunking 1980s lad in Lajpat nagar trying to impress girls at Alankar Cinema with his dads maruti all festooned up and loud dinchak music imported from Kaneda. But despite that POV, I would want NaMo to go check it out, just in case. Same goes for Typhoon, even if only to pre-empt all talks of corruption in a new government.

Mig 35/Super Horny/Griping would be a bit too much work :P.


Added later : MMRCA is a national strategy level decision. Dumping of it would be likewise.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by cdbatra »

http://news.investors.com/092414-718776 ... rs-reuters
South Korea announced official terms for its Lockheed Martin (NYSE:LMT) F-35 stealth fighter deal, which includes technology to build its own fighter as tensions rise with North Korea.

Seoul will pay $7 billion for 40 F-35A jets, which it had agreed to buy in March, marking the country's largest military order and making it the third nation to order the conventional-takeoff variant, along with Israel and Japan.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/business/0924 ... z3FdYaIVHC
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by habal »

Lockheed Martin had agreed to sell all the dies and plant & machinery for the F-16 no ? If this twin-engine condition is done away with, then the most sensible option was the F-16 onlee. It would have given maximum numbers at cheapest rates. We do have Pak-Fa, Su-30, MiG-29 & MCA for twin engine options. What was the need for so many twin-engine platforms.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

cdbatra wrote:http://news.investors.com/092414-718776 ... rs-reuters
South Korea announced official terms for its Lockheed Martin (NYSE:LMT) F-35 stealth fighter deal, which includes technology to build its own fighter as tensions rise with North Korea.

Seoul will pay $7 billion for 40 F-35A jets, which it had agreed to buy in March, marking the country's largest military order and making it the third nation to order the conventional-takeoff variant, along with Israel and Japan.

Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/business/0924 ... z3FdYaIVHC
Follow us: @IBDinvestors on Twitter | InvestorsBusinessDaily on Facebook
What technology is that? Mere assembly rights? Kit bashing. The kind that allows for them to say they make it locally (and at 40 aircraft clearly its mostly driven by local industrial perception).

In contrast, with the Su-30 MKI, we got the ability to manufacture our own systems and components, albeit with Russian raw material (some of which will be gradually supplemented/supplanted by Indian material). This level of participation is impossible with a JSF level program, whereas with the FGFA we will again get at least MKI level TOT for local production/sustainment.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Karan M »

habal wrote:Lockheed Martin had agreed to sell all the dies and plant & machinery for the F-16 no ? If this twin-engine condition is done away with, then the most sensible option was the F-16 onlee. It would have given maximum numbers at cheapest rates. We do have Pak-Fa, Su-30, MiG-29 & MCA for twin engine options. What was the need for so many twin-engine platforms.
LM is constrained by US laws. This level of access would be unprecedented and also lose them a lucrative stream (F16 rebuild and upgrade). Doubtful it was correct.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Philip »

What rumours heard of the F-18 being offered lock,stock and barrel to replace the Raffy,production by the "R" firm and Another entity?
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Karan M wrote:What technology is that? Mere assembly rights? Kit bashing. The kind that allows for them to say they make it locally (and at 40 aircraft clearly its mostly driven by local industrial perception).

In contrast, with the Su-30 MKI, we got the ability to manufacture our own systems and components, albeit with Russian raw material (some of which will be gradually supplemented/supplanted by Indian material).
How much local manufacturing did you do of the first 40 MKI?
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by NRao »

cdbatra wrote:http://news.investors.com/092414-718776 ... rs-reuters
South Korea announced official terms for its Lockheed Martin (NYSE:LMT) F-35 stealth fighter deal, which includes technology to build its own fighter as tensions rise with North Korea.

Seoul will pay $7 billion for 40 F-35A jets, which it had agreed to buy in March, marking the country's largest military order and making it the third nation to order the conventional-takeoff variant, along with Israel and Japan.
Thanks for that post. There is a lot more to this story:

Sept, 27, 2014 :: Exclusive: Lockheed to buy European satellite for South Korea in F-35 deal

This on a sat as part of the offsets - a FIRST for the JSF program (per that article):
Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) said it will buy a European-built military communications satellite for South Korea as part of a $7 billion deal to supply Seoul with 40 F-35 fighter jets ........................

Marco Caceres, an analyst with the Virginia-based Teal Group, said the new satellite may be built by France's Thales (TCFP.PA), which has already built several satellites for South Korea. The satellite was likely medium-sized and would cost several hundred million dollars to build, plus another $100 million to launch, he said.

.................................

Steve Over, director of international business development for the F-35 program, said Lockheed would buy and launch the satellite by 2017, including all necessary control equipment and technical training. He declined to give further details.
On transfer of techs:
"The Lockheed Martin offset commitment ... directly benefits Korean national defense requirements, enables substantial Korean industrial activity and transfers a large amount of high technology to the Republic of Korea," Lockheed said.
What matters is does this tech transfer fill the gaps that SK has to design/build their own 5th Gen plane. Apparently it does. Time will reveal further details.

On a far more important note:
Most of Lockheed's F-35 sales thus far have been with countries that helped fund the plane's development and qualify for industrial participation in the F-35 program, rather than offset deals for unrelated items. Lockheed's two other sales to countries outside the partnership, Israel and Japan, did not include offset arrangements, according to company officials.

As part of the offset deal with Seoul, Lockheed will also provide engineering expertise and technical documentation to help South Korea develop its own fighter airplane.
and,

Boom:
Brett Lambert, a former senior Pentagon official, said it was not unprecedented for companies to buy equipment from a third countries as part of offset deals, but it was ironic in this case since Lockheed builds its own satellites and has long called for changes in the U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) export rules to enable more exports.

"It's the last ironic twist of ITAR," Lambert said, noting that the U.S. government had finally begun reforming export control laws for satellites and related exports, but the Korean deal may have been shaped before those rules went into effect.
Point being that old data is fine, absolutely nothing wrong with. But, when the latest or recent developments/trends are not followed then one will tend to come to a wrong conclusion - that is inevitable.






With Modi at the helm ....................................... it is not "far fetched".

I do not expect the F-35 to be part of any IN-US deal, but would not be surprised. IF per chance a US engine is selected for the AMCA, then the chances increase even further.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

^^^ We can do better than the SOKOs today. Frank Kendall (who may be in India right now) is a very creative guy. Let's see what comes of it.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by NRao »

Frank Kendall in India?

He was supposed be to be there in Nov!!!

AJ was supposed to make the trip to the US this month. Perhaps AJ is still recovering and therefore this trip?



However, the point is what can India get - from anywhere - that will get her out of this straightjacket.

The MKI has not.

The Rafale will not.

The Brahmos has not.

The Javelin will not.

All these will fill a need for the user. But not for the designer community. Outside of economic reasons (getting something cheaply from abraod), the goal has to be that the rest has to be done done internally (would involve collaboration)
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28722 »

Victor wrote:First: Russia needs China a whole lot more than it needs us. There's the small matter of the $400 BILLION gas deal over 30 years that China signed with Russia which the latter needs desperately as the EU reduces its dependence on Russian gas. We don't have anything of strategic value that comes even close on the horizon.

Second: Russia has exported its latest hardware--planes, tanks, guns, missiles, ships, subs--to China in spite of China copying every piece down to the rivets. But they threw a hissy fit and threatened a copyright violation lawsuit when we made a version of their 70-yr old AK47 in small numbers. This in spite of the fact that AK knockoffs were already being made in the hundreds of thousands by a host of 2-bit countries. What a way to treat a "friend".
That's a very single pointed take on international politics. Su30, Brahmos, Talwar, Smerch, Arihant, Akula are a few among several examples of successful Russian projects with us
For AK they objected us in showing an AK replica and passing it off as our gun. Their Oil industry was earlier giving to NATO allies while they were selling arms to PRC who is at loggerheads with several major non-NATO allies.
Its supply and demand. IMHO Russia will not get involved in any conflict which doesn't involve them directly.
Victor wrote:Third: It whipsawed us on the Vikramaditya contract and told us to take it or go fish on the PAKFA. They're even selling jet engines to the pakis thru the Chinese!
Like French whipsawed us on Scorpene?
Like US is potentially whipsawing all NATO allies on F-35?
PAKFA stories are overhyped by media. The programme is going well.
FGFA Latest Status
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by Asit P »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Karan M wrote:What technology is that? Mere assembly rights? Kit bashing. The kind that allows for them to say they make it locally (and at 40 aircraft clearly its mostly driven by local industrial perception).

In contrast, with the Su-30 MKI, we got the ability to manufacture our own systems and components, albeit with Russian raw material (some of which will be gradually supplemented/supplanted by Indian material).
How much local manufacturing did you do of the first 40 MKI?
They had no objections when we decided to fit Israeli, French and Indian parts in Su. In fact before the advent of Su 35, Su 30 MKI was more potent than any of the birds present in Russia's own armoury! Will the US ever allow this to happen?

On the contrary US continues to treat its allies as the 'lesser children of the god'. Despite being a customer (and not a bakshish taker), we will have to abide by their EUMA! Quoting from an article of Rediff, this is what is going to happen if India decides to purchase an American weapon:

- The US will have the right to check that India is using any purchased weapon for the purpose for which it was intended.

- EUMA restricts what the purchasing country, India, can do with the US-origin defense equipment, even within its own borders.

- Under the terms of EUMA, India cannot modify the purchased defence article or system in any form.

- Also, to prevent the buyer country from freeing itself from dependency on the United States for maintenance, EUMA restricts India from getting US-origin defence equipment serviced by any another country without prior American permission. Even spare parts need to be sourced only from the United States.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_20292 »

I think the EUMA will get diluted to India's benefit in the future. But, India has to START influencing the US DoD FIRST.

Desi's in the US are a potent group. But they have no ISSUES to influence the DoD and the US govt. on. What issues are there? the H1B visa issue? Pharma patents? Not too many.
The Israeli diaspora, the Chinese and other groups influence the US govt. far more, partly because there are items on the table for discussion.

I personally believe that India should start buying American arms and ammo. Their scale is large and they are cheap (like Walmart). And we have to face a very large challenge from the East. The scale of this challenge, IMO, has not been seen and fathomed by us until now, whereas the US has already begun its Pacific pivot as a STATED and publicly identifiable strategy.

To mount a credible offense/defense in this world, there is only ONE game in town.

My personal thoughts are that it's a good idea to be hitched to THAT supply chain than to NOT be in that supply chain.

Mental Ma$turbation is all well and good about what is good, where - what is the state of our friendships and alliances, etc. etc. etc. But the sooner we realize that what keeps us safe and our interests safe, is not any notions and talk of non-alignment, but in reality , a strong ALIGNMENT with the powers that be.

The American supply chain is one of them. We should get hooked into it, pronto, by way of joint projects and the like.

The JSF is another way.

And IMO, these guys are price competitive due to the scale of their manufacturing.

In the long run, what will keep us strong is large scale manufacturing INSIDE of India. That does not exist today, and the supply ecosystems are budding. They are nowhere on the scale of what there is in China, which is the worlds factory. China:India is something like Germany:France in WW2 in the manufacturing side of things.

That's going to take decades of manufacturing led exports, something which, IMO has just gotten a fillip with Modi. In the meantime, we have to import/ co-produce and the JSF program seems to be tailor made for large scale international collaboration.

What sort of defence relationships, which are really, scientific RnD relationships for the most part, will we engender when we hook into a PAN-global and multi-nationed effort that is the JSF?

I'm sure there will be better contact between the Indian defence establishments and the other countries that are taking part in the program, like South Korea, Japan, UK, etc.

What sort of new ideas and scientific/defence related collaborations will result when this happens?

Since India is not a strategic pariah state to the west , unlike China, India should absolutely and resolutely move and create these linkages with western defence establishments. Who knows what technology will arise in the future and from where? Is it not a good idea to keep up and keep in touch, in a field which is notoriously anti-collaboration and secretive, despite being on the cutting edge of RnD. All RnD in modern science are defined by their international nature, and the free movement of ideas and innovations across boundaries.

India, has a unique opportunity to be the melting pot of international defence collaborations. It is slowly going that way, but with a select few partners that include Russia, Israel and France and now, slowly, the US. This process should be accelerated with the help of the US, and we should have far more international linkages and contact and joint research programs.

Ultimately, it is our being at the cutting edge of things, which will deter our enemies. And this will come from scientific research being well funded by the govt. and Indian universities and establishments being as open as American universities are.

the Indian people and the American people, realize that on an individual level. universities realize this too. It's time for the defence establishments to move towards this also.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_20292 »

The biography of Frank Kendall, taken from the DoD

http://www.defense.gov/bios/biographyde ... aphyid=248
Frank Kendall

Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics

Frank Kendall

Senate Confirmed in May 2012, Mr. Frank Kendall currently serves as the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics (AT&L). In this capacity, he is responsible to the Secretary of Defense for all matters pertaining to acquisition; research and engineering; developmental testing; contract administration; logistics and materiel readiness; installations and environment; operational energy; chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons; the acquisition workforce; and the defense industrial base. He is the leader of the Department of Defense’s efforts to increase the Department’s buying power and improve the performance of the defense acquisition enterprise. Prior to this appointment, from March 2010 – May 2012 he served as the Principal Deputy Under Secretary and also as the Acting Under Secretary.

Mr. Kendall has over 40 years of experience in engineering, management, defense acquisition, and national security affairs in private industry, government, and the military. He has been a consultant to defense industry firms, non-profit research organizations, and the Department of Defense in the areas of strategic planning, engineering management, and technology assessment. Mr. Kendall was Vice President of Engineering for Raytheon Company, where he was responsible for management direction to the engineering functions throughout the company and for internal research and development. Before assuming his current position, Mr. Kendall was a Managing Partner at Renaissance Strategic Advisors, a Virginia-based aerospace and defense sector consulting firm.

Within government, Mr. Kendall held the position of Director of Tactical Warfare Programs in the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the position of Assistant Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Strategic Defense Systems. Mr. Kendall is a former member of the Army Science Board and the Defense Intelligence Agency Science and Technology Advisory Board and he has been a consultant to the Defense Science Board and a Senior Advisor to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Mr. Kendall also spent ten years on active duty with the Army serving in Germany, teaching Engineering at West Point, and holding research and development positions.

Mr. Kendall is an attorney and has been active in the field of human rights, working primarily on a pro bono basis. He has worked with Amnesty International USA, where he served as a member of the Board of Directors, with Human Rights First, for which he was an observer at Guantanamo, and with the Tahirih Justice Center, where he was Chair of the Board of Directors.

Over the course of his career as a public servant, Mr. Kendall was awarded the following federal civilian awards: Defense Distinguished Civilian Service Medal, Secretary of Defense Meritorious Civilian Service Medal, Presidential Rank Award of Distinguished Executive (Senior Executive Service), Presidential Rank Award of Meritorious Executive (Senior Executive Service), and Army Commander’s Award for Civilian Service. He also holds the following military awards (US Army): Meritorious Service Medal with oak leaf cluster, Army Commendation Medal, and National Defense Service Medal.

Mr. Kendall is a Distinguished Graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and he holds a Masters Degree in Aerospace Engineering from California Institute of Technology, a Master of Business Administration degree from the C.W. Post Center of Long Island University, and a Juris Doctor degree from Georgetown University Law Center
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_20292 »

These are the sort of people we need in the Indian mil-ind base. We do have our versions of them - in fact, a Prof. of mine, P Ramachandra Rao was the Vice Chancellor of BHU, a distinguished SSB awardee in Materials Science, as well as head of DMRL, Pune in later life.

But, look at this guy - he has been all over the place - lawyer, scientist/rnd engineer, MBA - we should have in our country systems that allow lateral hires into our bureaucracy.

We do get straightjacketed, officious, procedural thinking, but we do not get the creative thought that comes from years of experience in different fields.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by vishvak »

Depending upon USA is more of a problem than solution for hedging bets and divergence from Russian dependence. Dealing with USA will lead to maze of issues that USA throws around - helping paki terrormunna, intrusive inspections & sanctions, sticking to USA ammunitions - along with other propaganda headache.

How is any USA jet (minus F-35) better than Mig-35 or Su-35 for us overall?
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_20292 »

vishvak wrote:Depending upon USA is more of a problem than solution for hedging bets and divergence from Russian dependence. Dealing with USA will lead to maze of issues that USA throws around - helping paki terrormunna, intrusive inspections & sanctions, sticking to USA ammunitions - along with other propaganda headache.

How is any USA jet (minus F-35) better than Mig-35 or Su-35 for us overall?
Dear friend, you are talking as if the Rafale comes to us gift wrapped in an Amazon package with no issues, no inside dirt, no bugs, no nothing. Total white labeled goods.

Not.

We will use our diaspora and Israel like, exert an influence in the US internal affairs, to get our way in the relationship.

But, it is important to BE IN THE RELATIONSHIP first, defence wise. Our C 17 and C 130 purchases are a good first step. Next up should be JDAMs and missiles and the F 35. It's a gradual exertion of influence, but it IS the future. India and America WILL be joined at the hip. There are too many commonalities in the people.

USA helps terror munna because the people of the US, who are pro India, do not have a say and influence in the State Department, which is notoriously anti Indian.

How do we change that? The US is quite simple and basic and plain Jane when it comes to these matters.
Show them some rupees, buy arms and ammo.

India is too strong, too influential and it's babus too entrenched, to become an American lackey in a trice. It has four times the number of people as has America. So many Indians have family in the US.

it is time we realized our power and influence and hastened the inevitable. We have to influence the Americans, the way they influence other countries, and that is by money and purchases. Don't they have a say over what we do, because of the amount of human capital of ours that is present in America? Don't they influence us in this manner?

How do we influence them, except for by tying them up in our system?

Did the PAK FA joint development program/Arihant/Akula/Brahmos start in 1960 when we were living ship to mouth ? It happened after so many years of collaborations with the Russians.

When we can see the future so clearly in terms of partnerships, why don't we start now?

I do see a future when all of LockMart/Boeing and other western manufacturers are joined at the hip with the Indian mil-ind complex . The Indian mil-ind complex should be the place where all the worlds researchers agglomerate and cutting edge work gets done - and that is by a. general increase in scientific funding and by b. more collaboration across nations.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28714 »

NRao wrote:
Need for pulling g's? Best to ask a fighter pilot.
Best to ask the designers of the plane.
What aspect?
Maintenance without going nuts.

Man this is a new century.
The plane was designed for Americans to fight a war half a continent away from their home. So... best to ask our fighters the need to pulling g's

Maintenance without going nuts? Have you been following the development of the fighter? So far not so good for a presumed low maintenance fighter.
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Post by member_28714 »

NRao wrote:
Need for pulling g's? Best to ask a fighter pilot.
Best to ask the designers of the plane.
What aspect?
Maintenance without going nuts.

Man this is a new century.
The plane was designed for Americans to fight a war half a continent away from their home. So... best to ask our fighters the need to pulling g's

Maintenance without going nuts? Have you been following the development of the fighter? So far not so good for a presumed low maintenance fighter.[/quote]


Here is a chronological write up about the 'maintenance without going nuts' F 135.
KESTEREN, Netherlands — The grounding last week puts the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine back in the public spotlights, just one week before the planned international debut of the F-35B at the RIAT 2014 and Farnborough Airshows.

During 2007-2009 repeated problems with turbine blades contributed to significant delays in the F-35 test program and a partial redesign of certain parts of the engine. The grounding in February 2013 was caused by crack, found in a Low Pressure LPT3 turbine blade. Investigations of the latest engine fire seem to focus at the same problem.

The question is: are the F135 problems to be considerd as incidents or is something wrong in the design and do the F-35 operators have a structural problem?

Long history of engine problems since 2006

It cannot be excluded that the root cause of the current problem is more structural than a simple manufacturing error or an isolated incident. Since 2006 there had been a series of engine problems with the F-135 engine.

In May 2006, Aviation Week reporter David A. Fulghum wrote a detailed article “Joint Strike Fighter F135 Engine Burns Hotter Than Desired” and described the risk of a shorter engine life or engine damage caused by higher than expected temperatures on the F-135 engine.
In August 2007 and February 2008 there were serious problems. Turbine blades broke off suddenly by a form of metal fatigue. The cause was sought in a combination of factors. On 30 August 2007 in test engine FX634, after 122 hours of testing, a turbine blade in the 3rd LPT stage broke off completely.
On February 4, 2008 something similar happened to engine FTE06, also in the 3rd LPT stage, after 19 hours.
The JSF Program Office told the press that the engine failures in both cases were due to “high cycle fatigue testing”. These problems with the engine contributed significantly to the delays in the JSF test program for the period 2007-2008.

Redesign of the engine in 2008

In early 2008 an engine, the FX640 ground test engine, was equipped with numerous sensors and instruments. On April 21, 2008 a test process was started to find the cause of the problem. Through a detailed test plan the forces and tensions that arise in the engine were mapped in different power ranges.

At that moment it seemed to be primarily an issue of the F-35B STOVL (vertical landing) version. The cracks in the turbine blades were created in exactly the same place, and seemed to occur when switching from forward to vertical drive. Later in 2008, the results became available. The blade cracks seemed to have been caused by certain vibrations that triggered a material failure.

This led to a redesign of a number of elements in the engine. One of the upgrades was a change of the distance between the turbine blades. After the redesign the engine was retested and recertified. At the end of 2008 Pratt & Whitney issued a press statement, saying that they were convinced that the problems were solved.

In 2009, problems with redesigned engine

During testing in May 2009, Pratt & Whitney found that at high speed with full after burner and at low altitude certain pressure pulsations occurred. This “screech” problem, that prevented the engine from sustaining full thrust, has been addressed by modifications in 2010 and included design modifations in the fuel system, upgraded software and reductions of aerodynamic leakages.

In July 2009, the then head of the JSF Program Office, Marine Corps Maj. Gen. David R. Heinz, was still was not happy with the F-135 problems. He told the press: “The problems include too many individual blades that fail to meet specifications, as well as combined “stack-ups” of blades that fail early. I’m not satisfied with the rates that I’m getting.”

A few days later he was ordered by the Pentagon not to comment publicly on problems with the F-135 engine.

On September 11, 2009, again serious engine problems were revealed during testing of the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine. At a crucial moment in the debate in the U.S. Congress on the choice of two competing engine types (the Pentagon wanted to axe the alternate engine (the GE / Rolls Royce F-136), a Pratt & Whitney F-135 engine broke down. Again, the cause seemed to lie in broken turbine blades. However, this time the same problem occurred in the new, redesigned engine with redesigned turbine blades.
Pratt & Whitney stated that a defected bushing led to damage of the some fan blades. Pratt & Whitney also announced that a “minor modification” would be incorporated in all ISR (Initial Service Release) engines.

Engine problems continuing in 2011

After the problems in 2009, officials no longer publicly commented about the engine problems. Also there were no indications that there actually were problems with the engine or that there were any reliability issues.

In April 2011, however, Admiral Venlet, the then Head of JSF Program Office, told reporters that some engine problems were impacting on the delivery schedule.
Pratt & Whitney confirmed to the press that “a small number” of F135 engines had been replaced with spares since March 2011 “with no impact to the F-35 test programme”. These replacements were ordered after detection of a mis-assembled ground test engine and further checks had identified the same problem on other (production) engines.

Two groundings in 2013

The F-35B STOVL variant was grounded Jan 18, 2013 after detection of a failure of a fueldraulic line in the aircraft’s propulsion system. The Pentagon cleared all 25 F-35B aircraft to resume flight tests on February 12, 2013. The Pratt & Whitney engineers diagnosed the problem as a crimp in one of the fluid lines of the fuedraulic system, which is a system that uses jet fuel (rather than standard hydraulic fluid) to lubricate mechanical parts.

A more serious issue was found when on February 19, 2013 a routine inspection took place of a Pratt & Whitney F135 engine at Edwards AFB, USA. During the inspection using a borescope, there were indications that there was a crack in a LPT turbine blade. It was confirmed after further investigation. The turbine blade is sent to Pratt & Whitney in Middletown (CT), USA for further investigation.
On Thursday, February 21, 2013, the Pentagon Friday ordered the grounding for all F-35 aircraft. The F-35 JSF Program Office said in a Feb. 22 statement to the press: “It is too early to know the fleet-wide impact of this finding, however as a precautionary measure, all F-35 flight operations have been suspended until the investigation is complete and the cause of the blade crack is fully understood.”

Some facts about the February 2013 incident

Involved in the February 2013 incident was the tenth F-135 engine with 700 hours, of which 409 flight hours. The aircraft was the F-35A test aircraft AF-2. The half-inch wide crack was found in a turbine blade of the low pressure turbine section. This makes it unlikely that it is caused by so-called FOD (Foreign Object Damage), such as a bird strike, because such an object has to pass the Fan Section (3 stages) Compressor Section (6 stages), combustor and high pressure turbine section before reaching the low pressure turbine section.
March 6, 2013 the JSF Program Office told the press that the problem was caused by thermal creep from stressful high-temperature, high-intensity testing at supersonic speeds and at low altitudes for a prolonged period of time, generating significantly more heat than expected.

New significant test failure December 2013

On December 23, 2013 ground engine FX648 experienced a “significant test failure” during accelerated mission tests (AMT) at Pratt’s West Palm Beach facility.
The engine suffered a failure of its 1st stage fan integrally bladed rotor (IBR, also known as a “blisk”) while doing ground accelerated mission durability testing. The stages are made up of integrally bladed rotors (IBR), the first of which is constructed from hollow titanium (the second and third are made of solid titanium).
The engine involved was the highest-time F135 in the test fleet, with about 2.192 hr. of running time, or approximately nine years of service as a test engine, more than four times the hours of any operational F-35 engine (By comparison, the high time SDD flight test engine has 622 flight hours and the high time operational engine has less than 250 flight hours).
This event was revealed months later, on March 26, 2014, by F-35 Program Executive Officer Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan during a testimony for the US House of Representatives,
Later he told the press that “they had underestimated the stress at low-cycle fatigue”.
Pratt & Whitney said in a statement: “Our investigation is ongoing, but we have determined this incident does not pose a flight safety risk and will have no near-term impact to the operational fleet.” In April 2014 the root cause of the problem was still unknown.

In-flight emergency F-35B after major oil leak - June 2014

A new fleet-wide grounding order was issued on June 13, 2014 after an in-flight emergency situation with a F-35B. The pilot landed safely at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma (Ariz.) after the F-35B what NAVAIR said in a statement to be “a major engine oil leak, the source of which appears tob e a separated oil inlet line from the oil flow management valve (OFMV) Rosan fitting. The fitting is common to all F135 engines.”
After engine-by-engine checks, most of the F-35 fleet (104 units at that time) was cleared to fly again some days later, but two other F135 engines were declared to have “suspect findings”.

F-35A with extensive engine fire at Eglin – June 2014

On Monday June 23, 2014 at 9:15 p.m. a F-35A, assigned to the 33rd Fighter Wing, 58th Fighter Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base, caught fire as the instructor pilot, was taking off as part of a two-ship formation for a continuation training mission. First reports told the “significant fire” originated in the tail of the aircraft, mentioning it a Class-A (big) incident.

The pilot successfully shut down the plane and escaped unharmed and the fire was extinguished with foam by a ground crew. The aircraft involved is the AF-27, s/n 10-5015, a LRIP-4 series aircraft that made its first flight on April 22, 2013 and was delivered on May 29, 2013 to the US Air Force. The F-35A was towed to a hangar. Accident investigators have collected any related foreign object debris at the same hangar for review.
No any pictures are known or published of the damaged F-35A. Uncorfirmed reports are considering the F-35A to be written-off.
Later, one eye-witness told, according to some press reports “The engine ripped through the top of the plane.” And, about six feet of debris was found on the runway around the jet.

All F-35A flight operations have been temporarily suspended at Eglin as they investigate the nature of the incident, but flight operations elsewhere continued.

However, after a week the Pentagon said it still had not found the cause of the fire, that the engine was the cause (not the Integrated Power Pack) and the technical air worthiness authorities of the Department of the Air Force and Department of the Navy issued a directive to ground the F-35 fleet based on initial findings from this runway fire incident. Additional inspections of F-35 engines had been ordered, and return to flight would be determined based on inspection results and analysis of engineering data.
Investigation is said to be focused – again - to the third stage turbine of the F135 engine as the likely source of the fire. The third stage turbine is the second stage in the low-pressure turbine section and common to all F-135 variants – the F-35A, F-35B and F-35C versions.

Preparations continued for F-35 participation in international air shows in the United Kingdom, (RIAT 2014, Fairford and Farnborough). A final decision is expected July 10, 2014.

A spokeswoman of the Joint Program Office (JPO) told IHS Jane’s that they had “temporarily suspended” negotiations for the next lot of F-135 engines and that
Negotiations about the LRIP-8 series of F135 engines would resume whene the scope of the latest engine issue and downstream effects would be known.

Conclusion

The repeated problems with the same part of the engine may be indications of a serious design and structural problem with the F-135 engine.

A future F-35 fleetwide grounding will paralyze the Western Airpower. Also, the lack of reliability will contribute to low service ability and to high operating and support costs of the F-35 fleets in several countries putting more pressure on the low defence budgets.

Since the F-35 will be the cornerstone of the NATO airpower and US homeland defence the next decades, the problems with the F135 engine need attention of the highest political decision makers.

BACKGROUND: History of previous F-35 groundings

May 2007 (electrical system, engine): The first incident was recorded in May 2007, when the F-35A prototype AA-1 experienced an electrical short that disabled flight controls on the horizontal stabliser. A grounding was ordered and continued until December 2007, due to time needed to redesign several parts of the 270-volt electrical system and F-135 engine problems.

July 2008 (cooling, electrical): On July 23, 2008, both flying F-35 prototypes were grounded after problems were detected with ground cooling fan electrical circuitry, DCMA reported on Aug 18, 2008 that tests were delayed as a result of testing anomalies on the 28 Volt and 270 Volt Battery Charger/Controller Unit, the Electrical Distribution Unit and the Power Distribution Unit. It was due to design problems. Flights were resumed first week of September-2008.

December 2008 (engine, ejection seat): On Dec 12, 2008 the F-35 was grounded again as a result of engine and ejection seat anomalies. Seat anomalies were observed in ejection seat sequence during an escape system test on Nov. 20, 2008. It took nearly 3 months to solve the problems and aircraft AA-1 did not return to the skies until Feb. 24, 2009.

May 2009 (most likely engine): The F-35 fleet didn’t fly between May 7, 2009 (84th flight of prototype AA-1) and Jun 23, 2009. Short after reports about new engine problems (the “screech” problem). No comments were available from JPO or L-M.

October 2010 (engine, fuel pump): F-35 fleet grounded after the fuel pump shut down above 10,000ft (3,050m). A fuel pump sequence error, caused by a software bug, could have initiated an engine stall.

March 2011 (Integrated Power Package): The entire F-35 fleet was grounded some weeks after test aircraft AF-4 experienced a dual generator failure on March 9, 2011. After both generators shut down in flight, the IPP activated and allowed the F-35’s flight control system to continue functioning. The problem was traced to faulty maintenance handling.

June 2011 (software): Carrier-based F-35C suspended from flying after engineers at NAS Patuxent River discovered a software problem that could have affected the flight control surfaces. Grounding was from 17 June until 23 June, 2011.

August 2011 (Integrated Power Package): A precautionary grounding of all 20 F-35s that had reached flying status was ordered Aug. 3, 2011 after a valve in the Integrated Power Package (IPP) of F-35A test aircraft AF-4 failed. On 18 August 2011 the flight ban was lifted to allow monitored operations. A permanent resolution would be installed later.

January 2012 (ejection seat): 15 Lockheed Martin F-35s are grounded for about 12 days to repack improperly installed parachutes (reversed 180 degrees from design). The grounded aircraft are equipped with new versions of the Martin Baker US16E ejection seat, designated as -21 and -23.

January 2013 (engine, fuelhydraulic line): The F-35B STOVL variant was grounded Jan 18, 2013 after detection of a failure of a fueldraulic line in the aircraft’s propulsion system. The Pentagon cleared all 25 F-35B aircraft to resume flight tests on February 12, 2013. Problem caused by a manufacturing quality problem (wrongly crimped fuel line).

February 2013 (engine, crack 3rd stage): On Feb. 21, 2013, the Pentagon ordered a grounding for all F-35 aircraft, after a routine check at the Edwards Air Force Base revealed a crack in a low pressure turbine blade in an engines of a F-35A.

June 2014 (engine, oil inlet line): Fleet-wide grounding order was issued on June 13, 2014 for several days after in-flight emergency of F-35B at MCAS Yuma after major oil leak. Root cause: separated oil inlet line from the oil flow management valve.

June 2014 (engine): Fleet-wide grounding from July 4, 2014 after F-35A engine fire at AFB Eglin during take-off on June 23, 2014. Root cause unknown at this moment (July 9, 2014). Investigation focused on third stage turbine of the F135 engine.
It is crazy and stupid to expect a 200kn turbofan that has to be on afterburners most of the time to be a low maintenance machine.

A standard RX 135 from the factory will run 30000 km before a cylinder rebore is necessary. A piped and ported Rx that doubles it output torque will last about 100 km. Obviously not a fair comparison, but it is a good example to highlight the fact that extreme performance causes extreme wear. An F1 engine is 1500 cc and lasts 2 races.
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