Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 19 Oct 2014 05:10

Then, is the the FGFA a dud?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_23370 » 19 Oct 2014 05:48

Rubbish. The Russians are currently 2 gen behind americans and a gen behind the Euros. They are trying to bridge that gap but lets see how the FGFA turns out. The Su-30 MKK etc are diluted crap that wouldn't pass IAF requirements.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby nachiket » 19 Oct 2014 05:59

Cue Philip to come in and support the Russian envoy.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 08:00

Nachiket lol

Cosmo Saar, I think ultimately a combo of our own economic heft and mil development -LCA, MCA etc is required to shake these guys out of their stupor. They have sorta got used to us being their junior partners and all.. us being assertive and buying stuff from others and then openly saying theirs didn't make the cut, cuts them to the quick. See the rabid reaction f.e. when it came out the Arjun whacked the T90 in trials. A whole host of Russians and East Euros still can't accept it. Part of the reason is that our own media and some sections of the Retd mil establishment run down our own capabilities 24/7. Then when a mangalyaan or Agni succeeds they gawp. Another thing is we are working with them on many programs where they do have an edge or are willing to work with us eg nuke subs etc. what they don't seem to get is that it's india's prerogative to chose the best in everything and we don't believe in sticking only to one supplier ala client states. Ultimately, the Russian ambassador can say whatever he wants, but his intemperate outbursts won't endear him to either the IAF or Delhi, and his churlish attempt to play the PRC card won't work on our new Govt (JMHO). Meanwhile we"ll continue working with them on Brahmos, FGFA etc.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Surya » 19 Oct 2014 08:10

Cue Philip to come in and support the Russian envoy.


yup Philip will say Su 27\30 better than Rafale because even if it crashes it will be more intact proving its ruggedness

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Misraji » 19 Oct 2014 09:49

nachiket wrote:Cue Philip to come in and support the Russian envoy.

You mean come in and support himself? ... :mrgreen:

--Ashish

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 19 Oct 2014 10:27

Su 27/30 will surely save a lot of $$ which is what matters currently. One can't keep changing goal posts, for it can benefit some indirectly. By the way, Russian su 27 have reached Iraq and not amrikan TFTA fighters that are paid for already. Wonder why and what does that say about 'cost' part.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 19 Oct 2014 12:17

Let's objectively look back at the history of the SU-30 in the IAF.When it was first mooted for the IAF by a visionary ACM a couple of decades ago,it was not realised by many as to how far the original aircraft could be "tweaked" to make it the most lethal non-stealth 4++ fighter in the skies.The IAF then using a variety of eqpt. from various sources turned it into the MKI version which was a trail-blazer.Analysts from all over the world have given their verdict on the capability of the aircraft,there is no need for me to parrot their positive views here.The aircraft has been a great success in the export market,with China even reverse engineering the Flanker. The IAF have ordered upto 270+ aircraft and if it was a turkey,did not meet IAF standards,then the IAF and MOD have to be taken to task! In fact the aircraft is now being evaluated (Su-35) by the Indonesians too.

The Super-Sukhoi variant on the cards,equipped with BMos and in the future 3 BMos-Ms,will be perhaps the most lethal 4++ strike aircraft in the skies.If the Novator K-199 ultra-long range AAM ,another JV,"AWACS killer" with a range of upto 3000-400km,remains on the cards ,then the capability of the Flanker will be immeasurably enhanced.

What we are forgetting right now is that the aircraft is being manufactured in India,upto 70%,using Indian sourced materials.Was the crashed aircraft a locally manufactured one,assembled here or bought outright.Let's wait for the official inquiry as to the cause of the crash before speculating about the cause,which could be from bird strike,eqpt. failure to pilot error. Every fighter aircraft type in IAF service has crashed in the past whether it was from western sources or eastern/Russian,foreign built or home built.

PS:Please read the Sept. issue of the Asian Defence Journal for a laudatory feature on the MIG-29M/M2,which many Asian nations are taking a hard look at.
"MIG-29M/M2,The second life of a legend".


Unrivalled in close-air combat,they are known for their outstanding manoeuvrability and thrust/weight ratio.A new generation has retained all the best features of the aircraft and has acquired a number of brand new capabilities.


Some key points:
Improved structure.6000 hrs service life ,40 years of operation.New smokeless engine,new fan,improved HP/LP turbines,FOD protection system,extra fuel tanks,open architecture for Russian and foreign avionics,eqpt,weapons,etc.,glass cockpit,HOTAS,ZHUK-ME radar which can track 10 targets and attack 4 simultaneously,improved ECM for a high EW situation,upgraded OLS,reduced radar and thermal sigs.,a waide range of PGMs,max external payload 6500kg,offering the best cost/perfromance value.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 14:14

:D

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Oct 2014 15:45

vishvak wrote:Su 27/30 will surely save a lot of $$ which is what matters currently. One can't keep changing goal posts, for it can benefit some indirectly. By the way, Russian su 27 have reached Iraq and not amrikan TFTA fighters that are paid for already. Wonder why and what does that say about 'cost' part.


I don't think it was cost. It was foot dragging by GOTUS for a 'more inclusive' Iraqi government

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Oct 2014 15:53

Karan M wrote:Nachiket lol

Cosmo Saar, I think ultimately a combo of our own economic heft and mil development -LCA, MCA etc is required to shake these guys out of their stupor. They have sorta got used to us being their junior partners and all.. us being assertive and buying stuff from others and then openly saying theirs didn't make the cut, cuts them to the quick. See the rabid reaction f.e. when it came out the Arjun whacked the T90 in trials. A whole host of Russians and East Euros still can't accept it. Part of the reason is that our own media and some sections of the Retd mil establishment run down our own capabilities 24/7. Then when a mangalyaan or Agni succeeds they gawp. Another thing is we are working with them on many programs where they do have an edge or are willing to work with us eg nuke subs etc. what they don't seem to get is that it's india's prerogative to chose the best in everything and we don't believe in sticking only to one supplier ala client states. Ultimately, the Russian ambassador can say whatever he wants, but his intemperate outbursts won't endear him to either the IAF or Delhi, and his churlish attempt to play the PRC card won't work on our new Govt (JMHO). Meanwhile we"ll continue working with them on Brahmos, FGFA etc.


+1

It is in our interest to cherry pick best of breed. Indian foreign policy has been paralyzed by Kashmir. We became dependent on the FSU/Russian veto in the UNSC and it was held over us by the Russkies. We had to do certain things such as buy their crap.

With NaMo reaching out to the US and his focus on FDI and reforms, we can build really strong lobbies within the US to make the UNSC thingie go away.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 16:57

I wonder whether actively subverting the UNSC would work to the same goals? That's what PRC does.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 19 Oct 2014 18:09

One has to lay the responsibility for patchy indigenous def. eqpt. at the feet of the govts. of the day.It has been only in the last decade that more top line western eqpt. became available. During the last decade of the UPA/MMS/Roman empire, the services and indigenous dev. was in general starved of attention. Where we had no other option but to go it alone, ballistic missiles, etc., we have made remarkable progress.That is why we have some successes and some failures. The reorganization of the DRDO and revamping of DPSUs has also languished.The clusters set up recently is a step in the right direction with heads with both poeer and responsibility and accountability. 2 decades from now one hopes that the % of indigenous wares and tech is in the 90s.I most likely will not be alive to see it.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 19 Oct 2014 18:32

^^^ Phillip saar, I guess we will have to get 90% faster then.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2014 22:02

Russian ambassador disparages Indians. In response Philip disparages Indians. So what else is new. :rotfl:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 20 Oct 2014 00:29

Where have I disparaged Indians? The truth often hurts.If we were the cat's whiskers in defence weaponry we would not be in the situation we are now.Who failed to build upon the HF-24 legacy, U-boats, etc? Why has it taken 3+ decades for the LCA to arrive ? 26 years and still unable to acquire arty! We have only ourselves (our leaders) to blame as the buck stops with us .The individuals responsible for theparalysis in defence decision-making last decade are too well known to be retold again.Let's stop whingeing like the Pakis.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 20 Oct 2014 01:34

posting here only because of the remarks made by the Russian Amby's comments in this thread:

Bloomberg Business Week / Oct 16, 2014 wrote:The deepening ties between Russia and China may reverberate throughout East Asia as Putin meets his neighbor’s desire for state-of-the-art weaponry. Russia is likely to sign contracts for the delivery of S-400 missile systems and Su-35 fighter jets to China as early as the first quarter of next year, says Vasily Kashin, a China expert at the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in Moscow. Russia may also supply China with its newest submarine, the Amur 1650, he says.


Seems to me that the Amby is forewarning India.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_23370 » 20 Oct 2014 01:45

Russia can supply whatever they want to China. India needs to develop its own industry and not depend on others. MCA is more important that Rafale or PAK-FA.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 20 Oct 2014 02:35

Russia may have or does have financial problems. But they are not technically starved. So supplying China with technologies will have immediate repercussions on India (and others in the region).

Indian MIC is further down the road. The above threat needs more immediate attention.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28476 » 20 Oct 2014 03:03

Well, so as to go back to topic, Rafale, a new study plan was launched for next gen AESA.

Google translation of an article.

http://translate.google.com/translate?c ... pair=fr|en

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 20 Oct 2014 04:13

Pagot wrote:Well, so as to go back to topic, Rafale, a new study plan was launched for next gen AESA.

Google translation of an article.

http://translate.google.com/translate?c ... pair=fr|en


So, France has allocated around Euro 90 million.

And should be expected to sell it to India for ........................ $1 billion .......................... in 2030.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srai » 20 Oct 2014 06:33

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_22906 » 20 Oct 2014 07:05

nice pics. BTW, that is Umaid Bhavan in Jodhpur in the background

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 20 Oct 2014 07:07

^^^ Over Jodhpur, its the 'Umaid Bhawan Palace' in the background. Beautiful.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 20 Oct 2014 10:55

Philip wrote:Where have I disparaged Indians? The truth often hurts.


Hmm... responding to a conversation about a Russian diplomat's grossly misinformed comparison between a Russian and French aircraft, by insinuating that the Indian side was probably responsible for Sukhoi crashes... well you can see how BRF folk might have trouble with that.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 20 Oct 2014 15:06

Well I would also take issue with any ambassador reg. the nature and reason for the crashes without any official inquiry into them.If there is a joint study by OEM and operator it would sort matters out.This has been done in the past with Talwars-Shtil integration,Klub missiles,etc.The matters were resolved.The Q that I asked before,no answer yet,whether the crashed aircraft was an "original" from Russia,or assembled,or built as is being done now out of locally sourced materials. Let the inquiry find out the truth of the matter.

Regarding the Russo-Chinese bonhomie,thanks to the US's asinine Ukranian policy and that of NATO expanding its forces to the Russian border by converting former Warsaw pact nations into NATO's fold,the Russians and Chinese have found that it suits both sides to work together.As of Oct 13th (say some sources),the Russians have signed an agreement to supply China with SU-35s,Amur subs and poss.S-400 SAMs too.These items were held up earlier because Russia was wary of the Chinese during the pre-sanction days.
From an Indian standpoint,Amur subs were offered to us first aeons ago,repeated in recent times to beef up the IN's sub inventory but thanks to the UPA's dereliction of duty and cohabiting with the US at full throttle,the subs are heading in a different direction.

Nevertheless,there are many irons in the Indo-Russian fire.Our relations are basically excellent.There is huge scope for more N-plants.N-subs,FGFA,apart from many other items under development in JVs,etc.When pres. Putin visits India in Dec. Mr.Modi will have the opportunity to reignite Indo-Russian relations to a higher level than we've seen in past years.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 20 Oct 2014 23:45

Philip wrote:Nevertheless,there are many irons in the Indo-Russian fire.Our relations are basically excellent.


It's easy for relations to be excellent when there's no pressure.

But what happens in a conflict between India and China? All the recent gas deals have made it clear who is more important to Russia . .

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 21 Oct 2014 01:25

With Russia willing to sell SU35 and other advanced weaponry to China how can it be considered as a reliable Indian partner ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 21 Oct 2014 01:28

arthuro wrote:With Russia willing to sell SU35 and other advanced weaponry to China how can it be considered as a reliable Indian partner ?



There is nothing called a reliable partner. National interests will always dictate decisions. No matter who.

Under some circumstances even France will cut off supplies for the Rafale. The question is what are those circumstances. Also, one good reason why investing in the LCA rather than the Rafale at $20+ billion makes sense.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Eric Leiderman » 21 Oct 2014 07:08

Arthuro
If and when the arms embargo is lifted against China , France sell them all its crown jewels , if the price is right, so lets not paint the french as white as the driven snow. The rotary wing stuff that France has transferred in the last decade dressed up for civilian usage tells its own story.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_26622 » 21 Oct 2014 09:10

^ you have hit bulls eye

If we consider Russians to be undecided between siding with India or China the French are 100% friends of the biggest cheque. They supplied Mirages and Agosta's to Pakis for $, switched sides to India when we threw more $$ and will get in bed with Chinese immediately once they show $$$!

What I don't understand is why in the world we switched from newer German HDW versions to French Scorpene. We are paying 3 x for the same goodies - just better lipstick color!

Sometimes even our Navy gets bitten by IAF fever - want to own every darn thing flying, akin to a museum. And pay over the head prices on maintenance+spares while simultaneously crying about falling squadron strength.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28756 » 21 Oct 2014 09:21

nik wrote:^ you have hit bulls eye

If we consider Russians to be undecided between siding with India or China the French are 100% friends of the biggest cheque. They supplied Mirages and Agosta's to Pakis for $, switched sides to India when we threw more $$ and will get in bed with Chinese immediately once they show $$$!

What I don't understand is why in the world we switched from newer German HDW versions to French Scorpene. We are paying 3 x for the same goodies - just better lipstick color!

Sometimes even our Navy gets bitten by IAF fever - want to own every darn thing flying, akin to a museum. And pay over the head prices on maintenance+spares while simultaneously crying about falling squadron strength.
I dont think the Russian is any different they are also friends whoever has the biggest Cheque. They dont have to be undecided between China or India but benefit from both.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 21 Oct 2014 09:58

Guys,hopefully we get more advanced eqpt. that the Chinese get.That has always been the case and we hope it will remain so.Don't also forget that we always get first peck at Russian wares like Flankers,Akulas,BMos,FGFA,etc.

Couldn't find the greetings td.,so wishing all of you a v. Happy Diwali.Please let off some fireworks in the direction of the ungodlies! :rotfl:
Cheers to all!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 21 Oct 2014 11:02

Design of amrikis seem to be limiting [Nuke warhead + Delivery missiles ] in level with pakis while [Air Force + Army + Navy] limited to Chinese.

In other words, fight Chinese to the last Indian and nuke Indians to the last paki.

The best option with Indians is to take out all the diseased pukes with huge irregular warfares and avoid war against China. Then, we won't need amriki star wars machines and be fine & dandy like nothing matters. Like how Americans sit tight in America while bombing Iraq and Vietnam (but not terrorist munna pakis) to stone age.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 21 Oct 2014 11:07

Philip wrote:Well I would also take issue with any ambassador reg. the nature and reason for the crashes without any official inquiry into them.If there is a joint study by OEM and operator it would sort matters out.

The ambassador didn't say anything about Sukhoi crashes, which is why your bringing up HAL's culpability in the matter is so awkward.

Regarding the Russo-Chinese bonhomie,thanks to the US's asinine Ukranian policy and that of NATO expanding its forces to the Russian border by converting former Warsaw pact nations into NATO's fold,the Russians and Chinese have found that it suits both sides to work together.

The Ukrainian crisis had nothing to do with NATO expansion. The key point of conflict was the association agreement with the EU leading potentially towards future membership.

The Ukrainian parliament in 2010 passed a bill prohibiting the country from joining any military alliance, a bill aimed to quell any talk of NATO membership. If there's been a reversal of that policy over the last few months, that can be chalked up to the Russian annexation of Crimea, and backing of separatists in the east.

As of Oct 13th (say some sources),the Russians have signed an agreement to supply China with SU-35s,Amur subs and poss.S-400 SAMs too.These items were held up earlier because Russia was wary of the Chinese during the pre-sanction days.

Who says they were held up because of 'wariness'?

From an Indian standpoint,Amur subs were offered to us first aeons ago,repeated in recent times to beef up the IN's sub inventory but thanks to the UPA's dereliction of duty and cohabiting with the US at full throttle,the subs are heading in a different direction.

You mean to say that had India bought Amurs, Russia would not have been willing to sell them to China? Can you produceany evidence to support that?
(How come China and India both operate Kilos?)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 21 Oct 2014 11:11

vishvak wrote:The best option with Indians is to take out all the diseased pukes with huge irregular warfares and avoid war against China.

That's convenient. Fight the Pakistanis because we can. Roll over in front of the Chinese because it gives us 'independence' from the American war machine.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 21 Oct 2014 11:30

Viv S stop misinterpreting please. Avoiding war isn't rolling over for what its worth.

Avoiding war against China is a very good option for both India and China. And we should NOT offer war to pakis on demand, we should finish off pakis (terrorist munna of four fathers) just by irregular warfare.

2 front war is probably a scheme to stretch defense capability of Indian defense forces when pakis can be finished off quickly otherwise.
The Ukrainian crisis had nothing to do with NATO expansion. The key point of conflict was the association agreement with the EU leading potentially towards future membership.

The Ukrainian parliament in 2010 passed a bill prohibiting the country from joining any military alliance, a bill aimed to quell any talk of NATO membership. If there's been a reversal of that policy over the last few months, that can be chalked up to the Russian annexation of Crimea, and backing of separatists in the east.

There is a video of Russian prez laughing off a suggestion that missile defense shield of NATO is just against Iran.
link

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 21 Oct 2014 12:19

vishvak wrote:Viv S stop misinterpreting please. Avoiding war isn't rolling over for what its worth.

Avoiding war against China is a very good option for both India and China. And we should NOT offer war to pakis on demand, we should finish off pakis (terrorist munna of four fathers) just by irregular warfare.

Saying lets 'avoid war' with China is just a convenient way of closing our eyes to the looming conventional theat from that direction. When have we ever pursued war with China?

Its India's capabilities not its intentions, that China respects. Wishing away war with China doesn't change the actual facts on ground. We are steadily being overtaken at a pace such that in a decade we will decisively lose any military clash against China.

If buying cost effective equipment domestically or from the US helps balance that equation (as opposed to overpriced European kit or unreliable Russian gear), so be it.

With regard to Pakistan, its comfortable to say lets destroy them, but until one knows how and what to replace it with, its ultimately a futile thought.

There is a video of Russian prez laughing off a suggestion that missile defense shield of NATO is just against Iran.

The events in Ukraine have no relation with NATO's missile shield.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 21 Oct 2014 12:44

We are steadily being overtaken at a pace such that in a decade we will decisively lose any military clash against China. If buying cost effective equipment domestically or from the US helps balance that equation (as opposed to overpriced European kit or unreliable Russian gear), so be it

So cost effectiveness is the key now against Chinese aggressions, where domestic v/s American gears is the only choice - and domestic nowhere close to the only competition except may be Nag missile). Well at least cost effectiveness part is clear now. Hope the French are listening ;)

However that doesn't leave out avoiding war part. Which is why we should accelerate nuke production to level of the Chinese stores - but much more and much accurate since China is a bigger country! There is also another logical corollary - if we can't overtake Chinese nuke capability then we can't logically go beyond (Agni 7,8.. ; Surya) - which is where cap on nuke capability and cooperation otherwise comes. Nuke threat of jihadi smugglers (& terrorist munna of amrika) pakis is the crude step to avoid all that.

Now lets see the ideal part here
(1) international community sanctions pakis, Chinese for warmongering
(2) No war.

See? So there should be steps to penalize the Chinese for increasing capabilities ( but not penalize Indians).

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28442 » 21 Oct 2014 17:11

i doubt there would be sanctions against the chinese - they will just say they are doing all this to get to parity with amreeka


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