Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby VinodTK » 30 Oct 2014 10:53

Draft of multi-billion dollar deal for 126 IAF fighter jets ready
New Delhi: The draft agreement of the mega multi-billion dollar deal for proposed acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with French company Dassault “running into 15,000 pages is almost ready,” sources said on Wednesday, indicating that inking of the proposed deal could be the next biggest step by the Modi government in the defence sector.

Sources said the proposed deal could be inked by the end of this year or early next year adding that “negotiations are proceeding well” between India and France.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RKumar » 30 Oct 2014 19:22

It might be a IAF win, as their gear might get priority over other less money value but big impact items.

But don't just start celebrating as NaMo/Jet-Li will take a finial decision (still 50-50) and any signing will happen only in financial year 2015-2016. Either way decision may come before hand in the next months.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby bharats » 30 Oct 2014 19:36

Negotiations moving in right direction: France on Rafale fighter plane deal
Link: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: France today voiced satisfaction over the ongoing negotiations for the finalisation of the multi-billion dollar contract for the 126 medium multi- role combat aircraft (MMRCA), saying it was moving in the "right direction". French envoy to India Francois Richier played down the delay in the finalisation of the much-delayed contract for the supply of 126 Rafale fighter planes, saying that such "complex" issues does take time.

"The negotiations are progressing well," Richier said, recalling that there were statements made by Indian defence officials in the recent past about the progress and also recent visit of CEO of French Dassault Aviation SA, the makers of Rafale. "It is a signal that it is moving in the right direction," he said at a press conference.

Asked about the recent reported comments of Russian envoy to India that Rafale "will be swatted like mosquito in an August night" by Russia's Sukhoi-27, the French Ambassador said he would not like to make make any remarks on comments by a "grumpy competitor". The French firm was selected in January 2012 by India for supplying 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft to the Air Force.

The negotiations have lately slowed down over some issues, including the imposition of liquidity damages or penalties for any delays in the supply of the aircraft to be manufactured in the country. Playing down the delay, a French diplomat said, "The final negotiations for the upgradation of Mirage took three years. This is a very big contract, complex," adding, "It takes time." He refused to put a timeline for the final signing of contract.

The cost of the biggest-ever single deal is also likely to come up for discussion during the two sides. India had selected the French Rafale combat aircraft after an over five- year process where five other firms manufacturing American F/A-18 and F-16, Russian MiG 35, European Eurofighter and Swedish Saab Gripen were also in the race.

However, the process of finalising the contract has been quite slow and still the role and responsibilities to be shared between the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Dassault Aviation have not been fully agreed upon. Out of the 126 aircraft to be manufactured for the IAF, 18 are proposed to be supplied directly by the French from their facilities in France whereas the remaining 108 are planned to be built in HAL facilities in Bangalore.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20292 » 30 Oct 2014 21:33

It's too expensive, the French aircraft. I would much rather spend the money building up research facilities for GaN and GaAs chips and fabs inside India, ultimately making the radar, than buying them outright.

Can we start a campaign, online, or otherwise, on social media, that encourages the 20 billion $ to be spent on accelerating the LCA, rather than the Rafale?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ravip » 30 Oct 2014 22:56

Not my quote but by someone in social media:

"If Facebook can spend $17 billion in buying watsaap, I think we can afford $20 billion over a period of 10yrs to buy Rafael."

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28442 » 30 Oct 2014 22:57

^^totally with mahadev guru on this

its not that we cant afford it, but much better to infuse it in the local MIC
not to forget we would get more planes with a longer service life (cause of local parts) for the same amount.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20292 » 30 Oct 2014 23:21

See, its also that the 20 bn$ a lot of it will be spent on HAL to manufacture the Rafales. A lot of the money will be licence fee to Dassault.

But, why do the trouble of all this? Those capabilities will be short lived, the ones we ToT.

Better fundamentally build ourselves up.

According to the latest IMF data, we had better be resigned to being half to one third of the Chinese economy up until 2060. We HAVE to be technologically superior to them in order to defend ourselves.

Also, we have to collaborate with more countries on research and development closely linked to aerospace and defence. the ISRO NASA collaborations are very positive and welcome.
End result will be that we are like the US is for RnD - all sorts of vendors and collaborators, helping build our facilities and projects.

But they have to be done cost effectively.

I can envisage the LCA being a Rafale, once it is also developed to a greater degree. How much time and effort and money is required in that, I don't know.

I also don't know how to include the time value of money being spent for the LCA and compare it to the technologies we buy the knowledge to make, off the shelf.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 30 Oct 2014 23:23

My biggest concern is that Rafale won't be too relevant 20 years from now.

How will it counter threats from VLO aircraft ?
You can put in bigger/better sensors into the huge nose of MKI and extend its life.
Tejas is cheap and for its price, even if its life is only 20 years, it is still golden. And it is ours, so we can create a VLO version of it ourselves.

Rafale falls between two stools. It isn't VLO and it isn't ours to make it stealthy. And in its current form with its small nose, it can't mount a real powerful radar either.

Can we afford it if its life is only 20 years ?

PS: 20 years is what I'm assuming will take for all the ongoing 5th gen fighter projects (japanese, korean, chinese and india amca) to mature into actual production aircraft. It may be earlier.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kmc_chacko » 30 Oct 2014 23:28

mahadevbhu wrote:It's too expensive, the French aircraft. I would much rather spend the money building up research facilities for GaN and GaAs chips and fabs inside India, ultimately making the radar, than buying them outright.

Can we start a campaign, online, or otherwise, on social media, that encourages the 20 billion $ to be spent on accelerating the LCA, rather than the Rafale?



Everyone desires that but still Rafael is Rafael & LCA is LCA both are of different league.

Mig-29 or Gripen's would have come in much larger quantity for the cost we are going pay. Since we are already committed for AMCA & PAKFA.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 30 Oct 2014 23:39

srin wrote:My biggest concern is that Rafale won't be too relevant 20 years from now.

By that calculation neither will be Tejas, but we are still going for it. Doesn't it depends upon the capability of our neighborhood?
I don't see any scenario where TSPians will be able to buy or operate a 5th gen aircraft. The best jets in their inventory today are developments of designs finalized 50 years back!! So Rafale and similar gen aircraft will be relevant on our western flanks with the 5th gens deployed on easten flank.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 30 Oct 2014 23:47

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
srin wrote:My biggest concern is that Rafale won't be too relevant 20 years from now.

By that calculation neither will be Tejas, but we are still going for it. Doesn't it depends upon the capability of our neighborhood?


Read my post fully. At the rate we are buying Tejas, even if its fully service life is just 20 years, it won't be money down the drain.

The point is how much would you pay for a platform that wouldn't be able to hold its own in a significant way 20 years from now ?

If Rafale is $50M, i"d say go for it.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 30 Oct 2014 23:50

mahadevbhu wrote:It's too expensive, the French aircraft. I would much rather spend the money building up research facilities for GaN and GaAs chips and fabs inside India, ultimately making the radar, than buying them outright.

Can we start a campaign, online, or otherwise, on social media, that encourages the 20 billion $ to be spent on accelerating the LCA, rather than the Rafale?

The problem is not spending but problems between IAF head honchos and ADA/HAL.
Is it a coincidence that Tejas' first flight and IAF requirement for MMRCA both came in 2001? If they had backed Tejas back then we would probably had 100 Tejas Mk1 operating with the Mk2 near FOC.
Till this problem is solved it won't matter what is developed or ToTed or what we spend.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Oct 2014 23:58

ravip wrote:Not my quote but by someone in social media:

"If Facebook can spend $17 billion in buying watsaap, I think we can afford $20 billion over a period of 10yrs to buy Rafael."


FB paid mostly in stock. The analogy by that someone is not a good one.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Oct 2014 00:01

Talking about the Frenchies being reliable:

"President François Hollande’s government on Thursday disputed a Russian claim that France was preparing to hand over the first of two Mistral-class warships to Moscow in mid-November.

“The conditions have not today been met for delivering the Mistral,” Finance Minister Michel Sapin told RTL radio. Those conditions, he said, are a return to normalcy in Ukraine and “that Russia play a positive role there.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/31/world ... .html?_r=0

40% of the ship (the metals bits) is of Russian origin and it's 100% paid for.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 00:03

srin wrote:Read my post fully. At the rate we are buying Tejas, even if its fully service life is just 20 years, it won't be money down the drain.

The point is how much would you pay for a platform that wouldn't be able to hold its own in a significant way 20 years from now ?

If Rafale is $50M, i"d say go for it.

I did read your post and I am not supporting Rafale
I am just pointing out that technological obsolescence is not a factor when your neighbor is always going to remain 2-3 decades behind you. TSPAF is hardly going to contain stealth fighters in the foreseeable future.
Rafale is available at $50M for France who developed it, just at Tejas is available at cheap for us. Its illogical to compare their costs.
Its a foregone conclusion that any MMRCA deal EF2000 or Rafale will be expensive for India.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 00:06

Cosmo_R wrote:Talking about the Frenchies being reliable:

"President François Hollande’s government on Thursday disputed a Russian claim that France was preparing to hand over the first of two Mistral-class warships to Moscow in mid-November.

“The conditions have not today been met for delivering the Mistral,” Finance Minister Michel Sapin told RTL radio. Those conditions, he said, are a return to normalcy in Ukraine and “that Russia play a positive role there.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/31/world ... .html?_r=0

40% of the ship (the metals bits) is of Russian origin and it's 100% paid for.

Per Stratopost discussions, purpose of MMRCA is to develop the local supply chains with a full ToT. Once we develop the local supply chain, won't external sanctions be irrelevant?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 00:08

Cosmo_R wrote:
ravip wrote:Not my quote but by someone in social media:

"If Facebook can spend $17 billion in buying watsaap, I think we can afford $20 billion over a period of 10yrs to buy Rafael."


FB paid mostly in stock. The analogy by that someone is not a good one.

IMHO, the reason for long delay is not money but ToT.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 31 Oct 2014 00:09

Philip wrote:The era of blocs is passe.The Turks are viewed as outsiders in Europe and aren't playing ball with the rest.There are deep divisions even in NATO.

Divided or not, NATO is not involved in the power shifts in South Asia/Asia Pacific. And there's definitely a Russia-China power bloc emerging, even if everyone's being all cordial about it in public.

Looking at the US's wares objectively,all their legacy wares,F-16s,F-18s,F-15s are at the end of the development cycle with the JSF the jack-of-all trades,simply just too expensive eevn if all the problems are sorted out and full series production around 2020 for allies.

The F-35's flyaway cost is now down to $105 mil or so as per the latest contract. Full series production starts in 2018, for everybody.

The USN will get their first only in 2019.

The USN got its first in June 2013. In 2019, it'll have two squadrons with a third forming up.

Russian MIG-29s on order are less than $30M.Pl. check.

Russian Su-30SMs on order are $35M each. What difference does it make when an export customer is charged $70M+ for it?

In 2010, the MiG-29K was priced between $42M and $50M (depending on the source). A MiG-29K for India ordered in 2015 will not come any cheaper than $50M, likely much more.

The MIG-27 upgrades (second batch of 40) to Darin-3 std.,similar planned for the LCA and Jaguar was approved with better engines (same as the Sukhoi and better avionics,etc.) ,with the Jaguar UG just around the corner with the assitance of Honywell of RR for the engine.

MiG-27.. Darin standard?

While one lauds the great aircraft that the MKI is,in my opinion,dealing with the Paki fleet,the MIG-29K/UG/35 would be a far more cost-effective option,with only a single pilot too.The money saved to be put into the LCA MK-2 accelerated development so that the 42 sqds. goal could be achieved.

An even more cost effective alternative would be cancel the MMRCA, forget about additional Su-30MKIs or new MiG-29/35s, and invest the money saved in the Tejas Mk1's production infrastructure, which would also be exploited by the Mk2, as and when its available to replace Mk1 line.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 31 Oct 2014 00:21

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:I am just pointing out that technological obsolescence is not a factor when your neighbor is always going to remain 2-3 decades behind you. TSPAF is hardly going to contain stealth fighters in the foreseeable future.

The PLAAF certainly will field stealth fighters, and fairly soon.

Rafale is available at $50M for France who developed it, just at Tejas is available at cheap for us. Its illogical to compare their costs.

The Rafale is available at $80M for France who developed it. For us, it could well be $100M+. And since we're the end user for both the Rafale and the Tejas its quite logical for us to compare their costs.

Its a foregone conclusion that any MMRCA deal EF2000 or Rafale will be expensive for India.

Which only leaves the question - is that the most efficient use of our limited budgets assuming the planning is focused at a war against China? Is not a question, any serving or retired IAF officer has addressed in their various commentaries on the matter.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_26622 » 31 Oct 2014 00:23

After the recent OK for Naval submarines, we are very likely seeing an EGO match heating up between Air force and Navy. Not that one stup*dity needs to be followed by another mega stup*dity!

With the new goverment, this is a perfect opportunity for Air force leadership to take the 'sane and high' path forward - LCA plus MKI near term and invest in new designs to enter 10~15 years out. Platforms are turning out to be irrelevant as it is, missiles, sensors and other gear matter more plus future is unmanned vehicles.

This tamasha makes me further respect the Chinese - they have put in the hard labor, sweat, stealing and money in domestic industries to develop 'copied' then 'improvised' and now 'new design' fighters, submarines, ships, missiles and what not.

We on the other hand have shown proclivity to commit bigger and bigger mistakes, all in the name of urgency and scare mongering. Only way to tame this horse is to starve it - i.e. another currency devaluation. That will happen anyways at the rate of foreign donations 10 billion submarines+20 billion MMRCA+30 billion PAKFA+annual 10+ billion easily on maintenance and royalties handed out. Our trade deficit is laughable even without these expenses - very soon to be second to only US, who's GDP is by the way 8x of ours.

The idiosyncrasy is that the very folks charged with making India strong are in fact hollowing it out, by repeatedly going in for quick short term fixes!

end of rant

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 31 Oct 2014 02:42

srin wrote:
saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:By that calculation neither will be Tejas, but we are still going for it. Doesn't it depends upon the capability of our neighborhood?


Read my post fully. At the rate we are buying Tejas, even if its fully service life is just 20 years, it won't be money down the drain.

The point is how much would you pay for a platform that wouldn't be able to hold its own in a significant way 20 years from now ?

If Rafale is $50M, i"d say go for it.


I can't even begin to agree saab.
Can't hold its own against what? Hundreds of J-11s, J-16s, J-10s, MKKs, Su-35s are being inducted now. Which of these today will be too much for the Rafale now or in 20 years? Not just A2A but A2G as well.
How do we expect Tejas to deal with these if Rafale can not?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 03:06

Viv S wrote:The PLAAF certainly will field stealth fighters, and fairly soon.

I am not denying that, please read my first post. 20 years down the line MMRCA/LCA will be Paki centric and FGFA/AMCA PLAAF centric.
The Rafale is available at $80M for France who developed it. For us, it could well be $100M+. And since we're the end user for both the Rafale and the Tejas its quite logical for us to compare their costs.

You are missing my point. Rafale is available at low cost only to the nation which developed it, not to any end user.
E.g. Tejas Mk1 costs ~25-30 mil for IAF. But it will definitely cost $50 or so if say a Vietnam air force decides to buy some from India.
Also its illogical to expect that anyone will have entire 5G airforce. Whatever we acquire or produce now will be as relevant 2 decades later as Mirage2000/Mig29 are relevant today.
Its illogical for an end user to think of getting an aircraft for cheap.
Which only leaves the question - is that the most efficient use of our limited budgets assuming the planning is focused at a war against China? Is not a question, any serving or retired IAF officer has addressed in their various commentaries on the matter.

Aren't we already? All future acquisitions seem to be air superiority / multirole aircraft. With the advent of Prahaar & Brahmos, IAF won't be (and should not be) involved in CAS.
There are lot of other cogs to PLAAF centric approach. Nirbhay, for example, allows us to target PLAAF bases and military infra in Tibet (something we do not have now) and we should have them in good numbers within 10 years. Also PLAAF is not even 2:1 today on IAF 4/4+ generation department. No aggressor risks a battle on such terms.
Last edited by member_28722 on 31 Oct 2014 03:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 31 Oct 2014 03:39

"Cheap" is relative to what is in a product. FMS?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 03:50

ToT since we are comparing Rafale/MMRCA and Tejas

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 31 Oct 2014 09:36

All that the US has got are prototypes and LSPs of the JSF,of which not a single one has been combat certified and the recent engine problems yet to be resolved.Anyway it is purely academic to consider it for either the IN or IAF.The issue here is the Rafale,with the EF waiting in the wings in case the French botch things up,which I do not think will happen.However,with the Chinese to get the SU-35,even in its downgraded capability,it might prove too hot to handle for the Rafale.The big Q is buying the Rafale at what cost? Frankly,both the Rafale and EF are mighty expensive for 4++ gen fighters and our MKIs (with Super Sukhois in the works) are the better of both.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kmkraoind » 31 Oct 2014 09:37

What will be reduction to Rafale costs, if we build them as pure bomb trucks, i.e. with just radar and strap on lengthening pod (no other fancy avionics). Can we get them at 30-40 million costs.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 31 Oct 2014 10:43

koti wrote:I can't even begin to agree saab.
Can't hold its own against what? Hundreds of J-11s, J-16s, J-10s, MKKs, Su-35s are being inducted now. Which of these today will be too much for the Rafale now or in 20 years? Not just A2A but A2G as well.
How do we expect Tejas to deal with these if Rafale can not?


Because presumably you wouldn't acquire the Tejas to replace the Rafale on a one-to-one basis. For the cost of one Rafale you could buy at least four Tejas fighters (perhaps five). Fly them data-linked with 'Super' Sukhois, FGFAs and/or AEW&C aircraft and any limitation in sensor range is compensated for.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 31 Oct 2014 11:18

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:I am not denying that, please read my first post. 20 years down the line MMRCA/LCA will be Paki centric and FGFA/AMCA PLAAF centric.

We don't have the luxury of dedicating specific aircraft to either front. In wartime, you'll find the bulk of the fleet being employed against whichever adversary we're at war with.

You are missing my point. Rafale is available at low cost only to the nation which developed it, not to any end user.
E.g. Tejas Mk1 costs ~25-30 mil for IAF. But it will definitely cost $50 or so if say a Vietnam air force decides to buy some from India.
Also its illogical to expect that anyone will have entire 5G airforce. Whatever we acquire or produce now will be as relevant 2 decades later as Mirage2000/Mig29 are relevant today.

The Rafale is NOT available at a low cost to any nation. Its available at a high cost to France and higher cost to India.

What difference does it make what the Tejas would cost to Vietnam? (And it'll be much lower than $50M, just for the record.) We're not comparing the aircraft from Vietnam's point of view or of some other third party. If the Tejas is cheap for us, regardless of the reasons behind it, that's where our bulk of our funding should be focused.

Its illogical for an end user to think of getting an aircraft for cheap.

We ARE getting the Tejas for a very cheap price.

Aren't we already? All future acquisitions seem to be air superiority / multirole aircraft. With the advent of Prahaar & Brahmos, IAF won't be (and should not be) involved in CAS.

There are lot of other cogs to PLAAF centric approach. Nirbhay, for example, allows us to target PLAAF bases and military infra in Tibet (something we do not have now) and we should have them in good numbers within 10 years. Also PLAAF is not even 2:1 today on IAF 4/4+ generation department. No aggressor risks a battle on such terms.


1. The air force will most certainly be involved in CAS. Neither the Prahaar nor the BrahMos (which isn't for CAS ops at all) is cost effective enough for employment in the quantities that a full scale war will require.

2. The Nirbhay can be tracked and intercepted by PLAAF assets as well as short range SAMs/AAA. Useful as it is, its no more a silver bullet solution than the Babur is for our other neighbor.

3. The PLAAF is about 2:1 in 4G fighters against India, and you'll find that ratio increasing to 3:1 by the end of the decade.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 31 Oct 2014 11:54

Philip wrote:All that the US has got are prototypes and LSPs of the JSF,of which not a single one has been combat certified and the recent engine problems yet to be resolved.

The aircraft are being operated by VF-101, a US Navy Strike Fighter Squadron. These are not prototypes and will not be returned to the company after 'testing'. They're not combat 'certified' yet but they will all be combat capable by the end of 2015. And when IOC is declared in 2019, overnight the USN will have two full squadrons available for combat operations. No urgent need for it, but if necessary, IOC could also be moved up and the aircraft made available to theatre commanders even earlier.

So your statement - USN will get their first only in 2019 - was incorrect.

Anyway it is purely academic to consider it for either the IN or IAF.The issue here is the Rafale,with the EF waiting in the wings in case the French botch things up,which I do not think will happen.However,with the Chinese to get the SU-35,even in its downgraded capability,it might prove too hot to handle for the Rafale.

You brought up the F-35 issue mate. As far as the Su-35 is concerned, the Chinese have no real interest in it, all it does it screw up their logistics for a marginal increase on capability (for their force as a whole). The worrying part is not the Su-35 but its 117S engine becoming available for export to China (which is the actual point of interest). The 117S will inevitably makes its way onto their J-10, J-11/16 and the still-in-development J-20, which would have a fleet-wide impact. May even be followed by 117 exports.

The big Q is buying the Rafale at what cost? Frankly,both the Rafale and EF are mighty expensive for 4++ gen fighters and our MKIs (with Super Sukhois in the works) are the better of both.

May not better qualitatively, but its certainly better value-for-money.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28397 » 31 Oct 2014 12:13

when this thing will end, I have lost good decade of my jawani waiting for these beauties :(
please Modi z either please kill this deal or just sign this deal ASAP.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby P Chitkara » 31 Oct 2014 12:53


Vishnu
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Vishnu » 31 Oct 2014 13:45

P Chitkara wrote:Another planted article?


How is this a planted article ? I saw the journalist ask the British Defence Minister this yesterday. I did an interview with him right after and didn't ask him this question because it didn't seem relevant. But how is it a plant? A planted piece, as I understand it, is when a journalist receives monetary or other incentives in exchange for carrying a particular story.

Can you please share what information you have to suggest the reporter, Rajat Pandit was compromised ?

Thanks
Vishnu

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 31 Oct 2014 13:53

P Chitkara wrote:Another planted article?


The EF was not selected because it was not L1. All things being equal, in a typical GOI tender process, the player that was L2 is given an opportunity to match the player that was L1, in terms of prices. If the contract with the player that is L1 cannot be signed for any number of reasons.

The EF owners are only suggesting their willingness to meet the L1 criteria, if the contract cannot be signed with the French. If it is a lifafa or not is immaterial, in context of the Tender and the the willingness of the euros to meet it. As it is an integral part of the tender itself. No harm is reminding the Indian's & the French about it.

All in all this will strengthen the GOI's position to negotiate the prices of the Deal.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 31 Oct 2014 14:28

I think if you can make it unaffordable for either or both of PK or china to go on an adventure against India for some period, you could as well hive off Rafale and build up an indigenous solution for the air force in that time .Numbers do matter and rafale may not just make the numbers game.10 years later China would have a credible stealth options and i do not know whether the ipad of planes will cut when newer generations come online..Rafale may well never be stealth no matter how you upgrade it and avionics in a indigenous solution would be a definite option

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 31 Oct 2014 14:29

unless of course the french play ball in some other sectors and provide strategic solutions that india still needs

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby bharats » 31 Oct 2014 14:39

Eurofighter ready to step in if Rafale deal fails, UK minister says

NEW DELHI: The Eurofighter Typhoon is eagerly waiting in the wings to fulfill India's requirements if the ongoing final negotiations for 126 French Rafale fighters fail for the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project. "We recognize the Indian government has put the French first in the MMRCA project. But we are still part of the competition. If the negotiations with France fail or stall, we are ready to step in," said visiting British defence secretary Michael Fallon, in an exclusive interview to TOI on Thursday afternoon.

Read complete story at http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 989609.cms

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Oct 2014 14:59

kmkraoind wrote:What will be reduction to Rafale costs, if we build them as pure bomb trucks, i.e. with just radar and strap on lengthening pod (no other fancy avionics). Can we get them at 30-40 million costs.


You want bomb trucks, build LCAs and Jaguars.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20317 » 31 Oct 2014 15:06

Vishnu wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:Another planted article?


How is this a planted article ? I saw the journalist ask the British Defence Minister this yesterday. I did an interview with him right after and didn't ask him this question because it didn't seem relevant. But how is it a plant? A planted piece, as I understand it, is when a journalist receives monetary or other incentives in exchange for carrying a particular story.

Can you please share what information you have to suggest the reporter, Rajat Pandit was compromised ?

Thanks
Vishnu


If that is what you understand of a planted piece then it is obvious your understanding is inadequate.


The writer knows:
The defence procurement policy as well as CVC guidelines do not provide for any "comebacks" in such a defence project.


The writer himself has arrived at the same conclusion:
The Eurofighter, backed by UK, Germany, Spain and Italy, however, will find it difficult to fly back into the MMRCA project.


The writer has been told good enough that:
The UK is also pushing for revival of the stalled $885 million deal for 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers, which are manufactured by British multinational BAE Systems, between India and the US. It also wants India to soon ink the contract for 20 additional British Hawk advanced jet trainers (AJTs) as well as contemplate the lifting of the ban on AgustaWestland helicopters, which are enmeshed in the VVIP choppergate scandal.


Still the writer chooses to say :
The Eurofighter Typhoon is eagerly waiting in the wings to fulfill India's requirements if the ongoing final negotiations for 126 French Rafale fighters fail for the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project.


Based on:
"We recognize the Indian government has put the French first in the MMRCA project. But we are still part of the competition. If the negotiations with France fail or stall, we are ready to step in," said visiting British defence secretary Michael Fallon


And all this tamasha of an article is predicated upon what?
But France yet to fully accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines are concerned.


Which BTW implies that France has partially accepted the responsibilities.


If somebody has to hawk M-777+Hawk Trainers+AgustaWestland helicopters, then why would anybody help them publicize there real deal under the excuse of the French being unwilling/unable to complete the Rafale negotiations. What could be the motivation for such an effort?


BTW thanks for telling us that the piece is by Rajat Pandit.

..................................

Vishnu ji, for a piece to be a plant it is not necessary that the writer must have received monetary or other incentives. Motivations may be there of other kinds. Like his employer having entered into loan deals that threaten to become subject of investigation, with the writer being under duress to kowtow the official line of his employer. The writer could have been suffering from a 'love me, love my school chums' syndrome. Then there is the perennial need for 'breaking stories' which must sound original. Also the silly desire to prove that they are relevant, considering the present scenario where the MSM acknowledges that they have been starved of their daily masala. Off course the dog and pony circuit is also there. Further there could be a singular incapacity to arrive at the right conclusions to report and hence the need to be told what to write for a livelihood. Rishtedari and relations of a noticeable kind, have been noticed to be correlating with certain kinds of reporting.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 Oct 2014 15:11

@VivS ^^^: "An even more cost effective alternative would be cancel the MMRCA, forget about additional Su-30MKIs or new MiG-29/35s, and invest the money saved in the Tejas Mk1's production infrastructure, which would also be exploited by the Mk2, as and when its available to replace Mk1 line."

This makes so much sense that it is 100% certain that this path will not be chosen.

In the interim, if we want to beef up deterrence with real stealth platforms, spend big money on SSGNs even SSGKs (?) with Ohio class quantities of Nirbhays.

We don't need Rafales for pakis and they won't deter the Chinese.

Indian long term defence strategy has always been a series of short term fixes in panic mode.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Vishnu » 31 Oct 2014 16:30

[/quote]

If that is what you understand of a planted piece then it is obvious your understanding is inadequate.

[quote]

Ravi ... I assure you my understanding of the media is quite excellent. I wouldn't have survived 19 + years in this profession had that not been the case.

The desperate urge to troll and malign the media, myself included, is a tragic past time for many here. It amazes me that everyone here relies on media for news and yet will slam the messenger for no reason at all. But lets not waste time here dissecting the media ...

I can vouch for the fact that the reporter had no ulterior motive. While Rajat got the exclusive print interview ... there were several reporters, myself included, who discussed what may be worth asking and we all felt that it may be worth asking on Typhoon not because we are illiterate about the MMRCA deal but because it would have been interesting to get the Ministers views on the matter. What if he said, for whatever the reason may be, that "India was making a mistake with the Rafale" or for that matter was critical of the selection of the jet. He didn't and thats fine but please understand that it is a reporters job is to ask. Irrespective of whether you or anyone likes it or not.


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