Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RoyG » 13 Feb 2015 10:32

So Egypt will be the first to receive Rafale. Good for them. If it isn't in our interest to buy it at this stage, walk away and put all the money in the LCA, AWACS, etc.

The French are truly blood jokers.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 13 Feb 2015 10:35

>> AEW + AWACs + MRTT + 50 MKI + extra sqds of Tejas thrown in, and $$s to spare.

sounds more delicious imo. and MRTT deal will provide some $$ to airbus.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 13 Feb 2015 11:36

Pharaoh-General "Fat" Al-Sissy has to keep his generals in clover and comfort.Hence a quickie with le Republique Francaise and their agent Dassault for a mini-buffet of "finger food",with which the generals can lick their fingers afterwards,if you get my meaning! Now this is going to be a complication with the Indian deal,or perhaps an indication of "finger-licking" goodness from France? The French are also trying v.hard to prevent Egypt from signing away all mega-buck billion$ deals with Russia which are also on the cards. This is also a sweetener to India to allay fears that the Raffy will be operated only by France and India. Quick work by France!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby deejay » 13 Feb 2015 13:55

Amber Dubey, head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India, commented that “to drag the selection process for eight long years and then question the very need for the product may not reflect very well on India. A flexible approach, without compromising India’s interests, is needed here.”


Since Mr. Doobay is sermonizing us on what will reflect well for India and what will not, here is something this attitude needs to know - Mr. Doobay, what does not reflect well here is you. Pls, stand in front of the mirror and check the reflections. For any country what reflects well is its national interests.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 13 Feb 2015 17:23

GeorgeWelch wrote:Then why didn't they place a higher bid in the other competition to compensate?


They may judged it a losing proposition i.e. attempting to match OTO Melara's expected lower bid.

Whoever led the campaign doesn't matter so much, BAE still needs to sign off on it.

If they weren't willing to assume the very limited risk for 10 guns, why would they assume the stupendously more massive risk for 100+ planes?

You have no basis for your terming one a 'limited risk' and the other a 'stupendously more massive risk'? Risk is weighed against revenues and expected profit margin, not by the dollar amount involved.

HAL has been building BAE aircraft under license continuously since 1962. Just like like OTOM had a different perception of the risk (vis a vis BAE) involved in delivering warranties for BHEL manufactured equipment, BAE had no reason to hypenate the two contracts. Unlike the GoI, they have no single company policy on such matters.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2015 19:09

deejay wrote:
Amber Dubey, head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India, commented that “to drag the selection process for eight long years and then question the very need for the product may not reflect very well on India. A flexible approach, without compromising India’s interests, is needed here.”


Since Mr. Doobay is sermonizing us on what will reflect well for India and what will not, here is something this attitude needs to know - Mr. Doobay, what does not reflect well here is you. Pls, stand in front of the mirror and check the reflections. For any country what reflects well is its national interests.


in another article he was pompously asking india/MOD to hire "outside experts" (read him) to manage things as that will reflect well on india. :lol:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2015 19:35

Amber Dubey, head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India, commented that “to drag the selection process for eight long years and then question the very need for the product may not reflect very well on India. A flexible approach, without compromising India’s interests, is needed here.”


Ah?

News flash: The French themselves did it. They *also* waiting for X number of years and based on "question the very need for the product" decided to upgrade their own product. To F3.

But, I guess what he means is that India should not question it and just pay the extra *billions* and accept the F3. France knows best.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Feb 2015 19:42

Viv S wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:Then why didn't they place a higher bid in the other competition to compensate?


They may judged it a losing proposition i.e. attempting to match OTO Melara's expected lower bid.


How would they know what the other company would bid? And even if the other bid was lower, there's always the possibility it could get knocked out for not meeting some requirement or maybe the company would get caught committing fraud yet again. Anything could happen, yet as they say, you can't win if you don't play.

Viv S wrote:You have no basis for your terming one a 'limited risk' and the other a 'stupendously more massive risk'?


Is building planes not much more difficult than building guns? How could you not say it's more risky?

Viv S wrote:Risk is weighed against revenues and expected profit margin, not by the dollar amount involved.


It's judged by both. Something the size of the MRCA has the capability to cripple BAE if things go completely off the rails, which makes it even less likely they would agree to such a term.

Viv S wrote:HAL has been building BAE aircraft under license continuously since 1962.


The EF far more complex and requires a different set of skills than anything else they've built from BAE so far. Also my understanding is the others were simply kits while with the MRCA that's only going to be the case for the first few. It's a completely different situation.


Viv S wrote:Just like like OTOM had a different perception of the risk (vis a vis BAE) involved in delivering warranties for BHEL manufactured equipment, BAE had no reason to hypenate the two contracts. Unlike the GoI, they have no single company policy on such matters.


The fact remains that while they were eagerly pursuing the MRCA, they were refusing to touch the other competition with a ten-foot pole explicitly because it required responsibility without authority.

Sure they might have viewed them differently, we don't and probably won't ever know, but the simplest and most likely explanation is that they didn't think the RFP required it either.

Certainly not proof, but it is very suggestive.



Another point to consider is that the gun tender was released in november 2013 while the MRCA RFP was August 2007, over six years earlier. It is very possible that procurement policies changed during that timespan.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby nirav » 13 Feb 2015 19:54

[url=http://indiandefence.com/threads/france-india-disagree-over-key-rafale-contract-issue.52422/]

Amber Dubey, head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India, commented that “to drag the selection process for eight long years and then question the very need for the product may not reflect very well on India. A flexible approach, without compromising India’s interests, is needed here.”

Who the hell is this Dubey guy ?
While on one hand he does mention India's "interest", the subtext is actually that non sense "log kya kahenge" BS .. :mad:

"head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India" .. yeah right.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2015 20:01

Looks gud:

Image


Do we know which version of the Rafale has been sold? Cannot seem to find any details on that.

It would be something if they sold the Rafale and then have the Egyptians pay for an F3 upgrade in 2022.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2015 20:08

And of course. How can we neglect the *real* reasons for this purchase:

“It’s the first export contract for the Rafale. Up until now, only the French state bought the Rafale,” French President Francois Hollande told reporters in Brussels, adding that Egypt had been seeking “aircraft quickly, due to the threats that it faces.”

“I believe that, given the current context, it’s very important that Egypt is able to act to uphold stability and to be in security, not only stability on its own territory, but stability in the region,” Hollande said.


Makes sense.

And, ..............................

Questions remain about how El-Sissi’s government will pay for the deal both financially and politically at a time when Egypt’s economy has been battered from four years of near-constant political upheaval since the ouster of longtime autocratic leader Hosni Mubarak. Half of the country’s 85 million people live at or below the poverty line of $2 a day and rely on government subsidies of wheat and fuel for survival.

Egyptian media have reported that Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates funded other recent Egyptian defense deals. Egypt has been seeking to create a military pact with those two countries and Kuwait to take on Islamic militants, possibility around the Middle East. The alliance could show strength to counterbalance their traditional rival — Shiite-dominated Iran


Boom.

"Take note"?

The dynamics are totally different in this case. Silly to compare this to the Indian predicament.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2015 20:15

Libya was also about to purchase the Rafale before that errr....unfortunate series of events in which France bombed Libya. :lol:

Egypt buy some SAMs just in case.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 Feb 2015 20:16

nirav wrote:
[url=http://indiandefence.com/threads/france-india-disagree-over-key-rafale-contract-issue.52422/]

Amber Dubey, head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India, commented that “to drag the selection process for eight long years and then question the very need for the product may not reflect very well on India. A flexible approach, without compromising India’s interests, is needed here.”

Who the hell is this Dubey guy ?
While on one hand he does mention India's "interest", the subtext is actually that non sense "log kya kahenge" BS .. :mad:

"head of defense and aerospace at KPMG India" .. yeah right.


log kya kehenge so lets spend $20 Bn. :lol:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 13 Feb 2015 20:47

GeorgeWelch wrote:How would they know what the other company would bid? And even if the other bid was lower, there's always the possibility it could get knocked out for not meeting some requirement or maybe the company would get caught committing fraud yet again. Anything could happen, yet as they say, you can't win if you don't play.

BAE and OTOM aren't the only two gun makers in the world. Why didn't any other company contest? Its a judgement call. You have weigh your chances of winning the contract against the investment required to contest in it.

Is building planes not much more difficult than building guns? How could you not say it's more risky?

Its a pure business investment. 'Difficulty' has nothing to with it. You're not expecting the gun building company to invest in aircraft production. Its like saying investing in Boeing is riskier than investing in the local flower shop because aircraft production is more 'difficult' than arranging flowers.

It's judged by both. Something the size of the MRCA has the capability to cripple BAE if things go completely off the rails, which makes it even less likely they would agree to such a term.

Its not based on both. And just how would the MMRCA cripple BAE? Its an absurd notion. The liabilities involved penalties, warranties, etc are hardly going to be limitless. Assuming all liabilities are taken on by HAL, does that now mean that HAL is now at risk of being 'crippled'? Like I said, its absurd.

The EF far more complex and requires a different set of skills than anything else they've built from BAE so far. Also my understanding is the others were simply kits while with the MRCA that's only going to be the case for the first few. It's a completely different situation.

No they were not all kit builds. And the EF isn't that much more complex than the Su-30MKI that the HAL does manufacture (as opposed to assemble).

The fact remains that while they were eagerly pursuing the MRCA, they were refusing to touch the other competition with a ten-foot pole explicitly because it required responsibility without authority.

Sure they might have viewed them differently, we don't and probably won't ever know, but the simplest and most likely explanation is that they didn't think the RFP required it either.

Certainly not proof, but it is very suggestive.


Can you show me where it 'explicitly' said that it won't touch it 'with a ten-foot pole'? And why was OTO Melara willing to accept 'responsibility without authority'?

Another point to consider is that the gun tender was released in november 2013 while the MRCA RFP was August 2007, over six years earlier. It is very possible that procurement policies changed during that timespan.

Its is a possibility. What it does tell us all the same, are two things. One, that the liability conditions weren't pulled out of thin air, this is govt policy for better or worse (a result of being screwed over by OEMs in previous contracts). Two, that Dassault's public statements suggesting that no global vendor would function under such liability conditions is false.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 13 Feb 2015 21:05

arthuro wrote:It seems the rafale is vert close to get its first export with Egypt. Ceremonial signing is schedulded this monday in Cairo. Agreement has been signed today (reuters).

A deal wrapped in three months with first delivery in less than four month after signature.

Take note India :-)


You see Egypt needs them urgently. They'll be required to do a flypast when Sisi inaugurates the Egypt's new Suez Canal expansion project.

Le 26 novembre, lors de son dernier passage à Paris, le président Sissi a insisté sur l’urgence de sa demande, d’autant qu’il souhaitait présenter ces nouveaux équipements en août prochain pour l’inauguration de l’élargissement du canal de Suez. « Je reviens dans trois jours », aurait-il dit pour signifier la nécessité d’aller vite.
Une très importante délégation d’une quinzaine de militaires égyptiens était, à cette occasion, restée plusieurs jours à Paris pour discuter avec les industriels.


On November 26, during his last visit to Paris, President Sisi stressed the urgency of his request, he wanted to present the new equipment in August for the inauguration of the Suez Canal expansion. "I'll be back in three days," he reportedly said to signifying the need to go faster.

A very large delegation of fifteen Egyptian military remained behind for several days in Paris for discussions with the industry.


Le Monde



Unfortunately India, unlike Egypt, can't afford to let public ceremonies determine the pace and composition of military acquisitions.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Feb 2015 21:12

Viv S wrote:
Is building planes not much more difficult than building guns? How could you not say it's more risky?

Its a pure business investment. 'Difficulty' has nothing to with it. You're not expecting the gun building company to invest in aircraft production.


Difficulty has everything to do with it. More difficulty = more risk, which then informs your business decision.

Viv S wrote: Its like saying investing in Boeing is riskier than investing in the local flower shop because aircraft production is more 'difficult' than arranging flowers.


Nonsensical comparison. The risk of a flower shop has everything to do with local economic conditions and nothing to do with the 'difficulty' of arranging flowers.

For the MRCA there are no economic conditions to consider in this regard, it's simply can you (or HAL) execute.

Viv S wrote:
It's judged by both. Something the size of the MRCA has the capability to cripple BAE if things go completely off the rails, which makes it even less likely they would agree to such a term.

Its not based on both. And just how would the MMRCA cripple BAE? Its an absurd notion. The liabilities involved penalties, warranties, etc are hardly going to be limitless.


You have no idea what the guarantees entail so you can make no such statement.


Viv S wrote: Assuming all liabilities are taken on by HAL, does that now mean that HAL is now at risk of being 'crippled'? Like I said, its absurd.


HAL can't and won't be punished for failures to meet spec, so it's irrelevant.

Viv S wrote:the EF isn't that much more complex than the Su-30MKI


I can assure you that the manufacturing process is very different indeed.

Viv S wrote:Can you show me where it 'explicitly' said that it won't touch it 'with a ten-foot pole'?


Your own link? They were unwilling to bid because of the clause.


Viv S wrote: One, that the liability conditions weren't pulled out of thin air, this is govt policy for better or worse (a result of being screwed over by OEMs in previous contracts).


For the gun competion.

It tells us precisely nothing about the MRCA RFP.


Viv S wrote: Two, that Dassault's public statements suggesting that no global vendor would function under such liability conditions is false.


As you yourself pointed out, that's a tremendously weak example. BHEL was already manufacturing the guns, so there was no risk whatsoever.

I'm not saying there aren't other examples, but that one is poor to the point of irrelevance.
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 13 Feb 2015 21:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby negi » 13 Feb 2015 21:12

Did you guys read up on common wealth games scandal ?

As per bloomperg "organizers bought $80 rolls of toilet paper, $61 soap dispensers and $125 first-aid kits." .

Kalmadi sir is not the only one in the system; now do the math imagine why importing a fighter AC or any military equipment is such a lucrative bijness.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Paul » 13 Feb 2015 21:21

If the Rafale deal fails to go thru, There will be very hell to pay. from Sonia to Sarkozy every body will be very very upset.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Paul » 13 Feb 2015 21:23

I would not rule out France doing a Bofors on Modi after signing the deal,

Sonia gets the commission, France gets the contract and Modi has to defend the corrupt system. I will be surprised if this deal goes thru

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 13 Feb 2015 21:34

GeorgeWelch wrote:Difficulty has everything to do with it. More difficulty = more risk, which then informs your business decision.

Nonsensical comparison. The risk of a flower shop has everything to do with local economic conditions and nothing to do with the 'difficulty' of arranging flowers.

For the MRCA there is no economic conditions to consider in this regard, it's simply can you (or HAL) execute.

You've made a claim about manufacturing aircraft at HAL (not BHEL) being more 'difficult' than manufacturing a gun at BHEL (not HAL), and then left unsupported. Most people would accept that BHEL and HAL are different companies with different core competencies and not try to directly compare the two but you're clearly on a different net.

Viv S wrote:Its not based on both. And just how would the MMRCA cripple BAE? Its an absurd notion. The liabilities involved penalties, warranties, etc are hardly going to be limitless.


You have no idea what the guarantees entail so you can make no such statement.

You're the one making the statement about the MMRCA potentially 'crippling' a company with just a 33% stake in the venture and a market cap of $16bn+. So you tell me about these mammoth liabilities entailed.

HAL can't and won't be punished for failures to meet spec, so it's irrelevant.

And assuming the MoD decide not to treat it with kid gloves, it would have levied penalties would have been so massive that instead of hitting its profit line they would have instead destroyed the company?

I can assure you that the manufacturing process is very different indeed.

You're going to need to do better than an 'assurance' to substantiate that point.

Your own link? They were unwilling to bid because of the clause.

It didn't say anything about a 'ten foot pole' explicitly or otherwise. 'Disproportionate amount of risk' does not equate to 'afflicted with leprosy'. All it does suggest is that the rewards did not justify the risks in BAE's considered opinion.

For the gun competion.

It tells us precisely nothing about the MRCA RFP.

The impression Dassault is giving out is that this is an entirely unprecedented, unheard of condition that its being saddled with, rather than standard practice for the GoI/MoD.

As you yourself pointed out, that's a tremendously weak example. BHEL was already manufacturing the guns, so there was no risk whatsoever.

I'm not saying there aren't other examples, but that one is poor to the point of irrelevance.

I don't recall saying that its a 'tremendously weak example'. BHEL was manufacturing an entirely different gun under license, so yes was very much a risk involved. A risk that OTOM in light of its working history with BHEL was willing to take on and BAE wasn't.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Feb 2015 22:02

Viv S wrote:You've made a claim about manufacturing aircraft at HAL (not BHEL) being more 'difficult' than manufacturing a gun at BHEL (not HAL), and then left unsupported.


I claimed that manufacturing an aircraft is more difficult than manufacturing a gun, which is self-evident.


Viv S wrote:You're the one making the statement about the MMRCA potentially 'crippling' a company with just a 33% stake in the venture and a market cap of $16bn+. So you tell me about these mammoth liabilities entailed.


The deal is for ~$20 billion. How difficult would it be for penalties to erase all profit and leave the company a couple billion in the red? Not very . . .

And just because a company has a market cap of a certain size doesn't mean it can afford to fork over that much cash.

Viv S wrote:And assuming the MoD decide not to treat it with kid gloves, it would have levied penalties would have been so massive that instead of hitting its profit line they would have instead destroyed the company?


Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't, but good business sense says don't put yourself in the position in the first place.

Viv S wrote:
I can assure you that the manufacturing process is very different indeed.

You're going to need to do better than an 'assurance' to substantiate that point.


Does MKI manufacturing take the moon's gravity into account?


Viv S wrote:All it does suggest is that the rewards did not justify the risks in BAE's considered opinion.


Exactly. They don't believe the risk of taking on unlimited liability is worth it.

And yet they bid on MRCA.

Viv S wrote:The impression Dassault is giving out is that this is an entirely unprecedented, unheard of condition that its being saddled with, rather than standard practice for the GoI/MoD.


The impression Dassault is giving out is that it's not in the RFP.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2015 22:06

Egypt Seeks Bank Loans for French Arms Buy

The talks have been held with French banks


Of course. 15% down payment. A loan for that too. And, of course, from a French bank.

A win-win for France.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Feb 2015 22:13

OK, the cat is coming out of the bag. time to pay attention.

The Rafale sale is actually ...........................

French Navy Plans Around Ship Sale to Egypt

The French Navy sees no problem with a prospective sale of the Normandie multimission frigate to Egypt, and in return has asked that sister ships be delivered more quickly so it has six of the new warships delivered by 2018, Navy Chief of Staff Adm. Bernard Rogel said.

The Normandie, a 6,000-ton frigate or frégate multimission (FREMM) built by DCNS, is a key asset in an export package worth €5 billion-€6 billion (US $5.7 billion-$6.8 billion) under negotiation with Egypt.

But if the frigate does sail away under the Egyptian flag and if the French Navy does receive the sister ships under the requested schedule, the French government is likely to come under further budgetary strain.

"Just for now it's not a done deal," Rogel said Monday when asked about the talks with Egypt.


Seems to me that Egypt actually wanted the ship and got sucked in by the Rafale typhoon.

So much for a sale for the Rafale.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 13 Feb 2015 22:52

GeorgeWelch wrote:I claimed that manufacturing an aircraft is more difficult than manufacturing a gun, which is self-evident.

It is not self evident since we're not discussing the same company performing different tasks. Its an odd choice of word ('difficult') but sticking with it BHEL might find it more 'difficult' to manufacture a gun than HAL would find manufacturing an aircraft. Unless you know the core competencies of both companies, its impossible to say.

The deal is for ~$20 billion. How difficult would it be for penalties to erase all profit and leave the company a couple billion in the red? Not very . . .

And just because a company has a market cap of a certain size doesn't mean it can afford to fork over that much cash.

You think penalties involved might run into a couple of billion... :shock:

(BAE has a 33% stake in EF Gmbh. So that's $6.5bn of a $20bn contract. Then subtract the workshare assigned to Rolls Royce, Selex, Thales, Martin Baker, GKN, Cobham etc and BAE is left with work contracts worth less than $5bn.)



The assembly line at Lancashire is built on land reclaimed from marsh (or bog or whatever). Its not stable and undulations have to be accounted for. The moon doesn't have to be taken into account when you're working in Bangalore or Nagpur.


Also when it comes to manufacturing -

________________

The result is one of the most perfectly aligned fast jet airframes in the world. Although 15 metres long from tip to tip, every Typhoon that leave BAE Systems in Warton varies from true no more than the thickness of a match stick – and that helps its ‘fly by wire’ computer system accurately control the aircraft, designed to be unstable but hugely agile. (Your link)

________________

Several large engineering production machines are now installed or projected to be used at Samlesbury. These include four Advanced Contouring Machines (ACM), two five-axis machining centres (FAM), an advanced 10-axis, gantry-type V4 Contour Tape Laying (CTL) machine. The levels of production accuracy required are astounding, panels and fittings have tolerances equal to 70 microns. This means that parts taken from one aircraft will fit any another, without modification, as was common practice on previous aircraft.(link)

________________

On an earlier visit to the HAL's new production line, Business Standard learnt that Tejas production tolerances are as tight as 0.08 millimetres; and 0.2 millimetres for contoured (curved) parts. (link)

(0.08 mm = 80 microns)

________________

HAL would have managed just fine even with Dassault/BAE's supposedly new age manufacturing methods.

Exactly. They don't believe the risk of taking on unlimited liability is worth it.


1. The notion of unlimited liability is absurd.
2. The risks involved are specific to the product.
3. Companies are still willing to bid on it as OTO Melara proved.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 13 Feb 2015 23:34

Here is a new article from Brasilian test pilot who got the opportunity to fly the rafale with intensive instruction. (he also flew the Gripen and the SH):


Image

https://twitter.com/jrvianney

WHAT DOES EGYPT GET FOR CHOOSING THE RAFALE - DASSAULT’S FIGHTER JET?

7 in 1

A fighter proven in four recent campaigns - Afghanistan, Libya, Mali and Iraq, the Rafale needs no introduction. Several articles and publications describe the models and specifications of the French fighter. We do not intend to write about what you probably already know. It is worth noting, though, that both single-seat and dual-seat aircraft retain the same dimensions and the same percentage of composites on their surface exposed to detection, at 70%. Here, we focus on testing the actual capabilities of the Dassault Rafale, which fits the AESA radar RBE2, and advanced MWS (warning of approaching missiles,) and complete incorporated FSO, (suite of optical sensors).

Our evaluations follow from the planning of the mission: a separate chapter for its practicality and versatility, to the digital debriefing. This helped us to understand the reason for the profound impact that the introduction of the Rafale has had. Dassault´s fighter has changed operational reality and its reflection in the chain of C4ISTR (Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance) for the French Armed Forces.

The deployment of Dassault´s Rafale was rolled out in spite of the harsh reality of global budget reductions, but with surprising results: A decreased total number of fighter, reconnaissance, and attack aircraft, but with an increase in mission capacity and availability, with a considerable increase in efficiency. In all, seven different aircraft models with specific missions had their designations absorbed in the Rafale. To give you a better idea, consider the savings after the last remaining aircrafts are fully replaced, with a drastic rationalization of human and financial resources, in reason of the standardization of equipment and crews.

Like a Moving Dune – Adaptable for Changing Scenarios

The Rafale is what we might call "totally ergonomic,” since Dassault, following the DNA of the company, builds the aircraft around the pilot as the key element. The aircraft is drawn from the fingertips of those who command it. Obviously in just one week of operational tests and evaluations, I am far from an expert on the Rafale, but with the brief intensive instruction I received, I operated it with extreme ease. Dassault’s concept emphasizes the practicality and ease of switch, reset and run a wide range of missions on constantly changing scenarios, even during a single flight. I had the opportunity to mock-fight with a complex combination of weapons, where Rafale fulfilled various types of missions in a single sortie, simulating not only similar operations run by the French Air Force and Navy in Afghanistan, Libya, and Mali, but in a theater of operations against “stronger hostile forces, and even more prepared.”

The set of missions incorporated maritime attacks using the AM39 Exocet, with penetration at very low altitude, AASM attack (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) on multiple simultaneous targets. Rapidly changing from planned targets to reassigned objectives, both at altitude and in low-level bombing including POP attack. Air superiority with BVR (beyond visual range) engagements and dogfights at short range, finishing by strafing opportunity targets with the Nexter 30M 791 cannon with 30mm shells.

Data Fusion

PCWRITE. This combination of "letters" appears in the lower left corner of the HLD - Head Level Display, giving a real-time and instant confirmation of which sensors are signaling at that moment. Each letter representing either the RBE2 AESA radar, the Infrared / Laser / TV Front-Sector Optronics (FSO), the internal system of electronic warfare SPECTRA EW, IFF (identification friend-or-foe), are merged into a unified and clear visual symbolism directly on the SA display (situational awareness), and that means keeping the pilot in the situational loop. Rarely (not witnessed at any time during our evaluations) would the pilot ever be unaware of the environment within the 360º “bubble” surrounding the aircraft.

The heart of this data fusion is the MDPU - Processing Unit Data Modules that comprises 19 LRUs (flight-line replaceable units), each providing a processing capacity up to 50 times greater than the previous generation of fighters. Translation: The pilot has a reduced workload, which enables him to act like a real tactical decision maker, rather than a mere sensor operator.

The key point of this data fusion is to overcome the limitations of any one particular sensor. For example, if it relies on waveforms, frequency, or infrared imaging, and the angle, distance, altitude, weather conditions or even a malfunction pose a limitation; other components supplement the formation of the big picture, situationally. The MDPU collects consolidated data from different sources based on various technologies, complementing, organizing and providing information through symbolism refined, reliable and unified.

The fact that Dassault holds an equity stake in the Thales Group was instrumental in the development of the RBE2 AESA - Active Electronically Scanned Radar, for the Rafale, with the speed and autonomy necessary for the viability of the French fighter program. This type of radar, whose transmitter and receiver are composed of numerous independent modules, allows detection in all-aspects: look-down and look-up, and tracking of multiple air targets, even outside the search area, in all weather conditions and even in an environment of interference and electronic countermeasures.

In addition to its clear advantage in air combat and vital and indispensable features in terms on today’s air superiority, the AESA radar provides privileged tactical situational planning, in both ground and maritime attack missions. During our simulated scenarios we employed the RBE2 EASA for real-time generation of three-dimensional maps for Terrain Following Flight mode, and for the capture of high resolution 2D maps for detection and identification of enemies in different environments, both urban and rural, and for designation and tracking of multiple targets on land and at sea.

Among other sensors, the combination of AESA radar with FSO - Front Sector Optronics, embedded in the nose, at the factory - developed by Thales and Sagem for the Rafale - made me feel very comfortable, especially for attesting that the rules of engagement could be easily followed, in terms of friend or foe clear ID. I was always confident in identifying targets to be attacked in the air, on the ground or at the sea, thanks to the automatic search and tracking integrated multi-sensor suite. Besides enabling us to execute the mission accurately, Rafale also gave us the ability to document, record, and evaluate, as a RECON.

Rafale’s claws

The MBDA MICA missile (Missile d'interception et de combat aérien) is now the main air-to-air armament of the Rafale - multi-target, all weather, and fire-and-forget. Extremely agile, thanks to TVC - thrust vector control, and its small size, unusual compared to similar missiles of short and medium range, MICA has demonstrated its effectiveness from approximately 500 meters to 60 kilometers. IR versions (imaging infrared homing seeker), and RF (active homing radar seeker), are both equipped with filters that reduce the effectiveness of countermeasures such as flares and chaff. The MBDA MICA is also able to lock-on after launch (LOAL), which means in practice that it will "permit" shooting out of sensor range missile, effecting the acquisition and lock on target after launch, and even a new target designation via aircraft-missile link.

As mentioned before Rafale data fusion can use visual information from MICA IR infrared seeker, processing and merging data, acting as an extra sensor, while aboard the aircraft rails.

During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.

We have been awarded the privilege of accompanying the latest stage of development of the next air-to-air long range missile to be employed by the Rafale, the MBDA METEOR. The Meteor is driven by a ramjet, a jet engine that has no moving parts, simple and small, but with great speed, at more than Mach 4, and lethal at more than 100 km. We had access to simulator program integration, where the behavior of the new weapons were tested in conjunction with RBE2 AESA radar and other sensors that comprise the suite of data fusion of the Rafale and which guarantees a precise target acquisition and lock. We had the honor of performing some METEOR launches, which were recorded and added to the database of the development program and integration.

Peace of Mind at 900km/h, 20 meters from the ground and surrounded by bad guys

Pilot safety is safeguarded by various systems of the Rafale. Starting with the seat, a tilt of 29º distributes the gravitational effect, preventing G-Loc, even at 9Gs that Dassault’s fighter can pull without surpass the operational load factors parameters, in air-to-air mode. The GPW - Ground Proximity Warning, alerts by audible and visual signals, to avoid colliding with the ground when the attitude and altitude of flight correspond to an approach to the surface. If needed, a pre-programmed recovery system can be accessed by the pilot, and in the case of spatial disorientation, there is an "anti-spin” feature even though the Rafale has not shown any tendency to spin, even in the corners of the envelope. Nevertheless, once anti-spin switch is activated, the flight computers redirect the aircraft to a safe flight regime with wings leveled, 5 degrees of climb, and 350 kts. In the absence of reaction by the pilot, GPW will also automatically initiate a maneuver leading back to the leveling of the airplane’s wings and a positive attitude to climb.

If Rafale safety features prevents CFIT events (controlled flight into terrain), it is exactly on the low flight (close to the ground - hilly or flat - or water) that the fighter shows one of its greatest strengths. With a unique capability and clever use of what I call "guerrilla stealth,"

Terrain Following mode is much more than an aid to agile piloting at very low altitude. It acts as an extra pilot in the cockpit, since the security I felt in the fidelity of the system - which combines the redundancy of AESA radar and the digital database, leave us entirely focused on the tactical objective of the mission: namely, to deliver the "package" in the right place at the right time... and yet, track airborne targets and threats during the raid.

A Dainty Beast

The thrust-to-weight ratio and wing loading of the Rafale allows this "beast" to carry a payload of up to 140% of its own weight. All this "brutishness" did not detract from Rafale´s performance, verve, and flair, since its agility, acceleration, and flexibility of speed inside the envelope confirm a successful aerodynamic model. I was able to test Rafale’s finest handling characteristics entering a loop at low speed, starting at 190 kts, dropping to 128 kts, at the top, and spanning only 2,300 feet.

Docile but also with positive response controls, the impressive short landing of the Rafale even in a gusty day like that we’re flying, she landed safely in less than 650 meters, with 510 kg of fuel remaining, two MICAs and a supersonic external belly tank. By the way, “Rafale” is French for gust.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page434

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 13 Feb 2015 23:47

Interview of CEO Eric Trappier (RTL radio)

"With India it's going to take a little more time than with Egypt. India is a country that takes its time but we already had a victory with the result of a competition in which 6 aircraft were engaged [...] For 3 years, we are negotiating the terms of the contract. [...] Which takes more time is the establishment of a deep industrial partnership with Indian industrialists. This is in the making. But we must agree in every detail to be sure that, at the end, the IAF will receive its 126 aircraft, on time and with the required quality" [...]

More (in french):
http://www.rtl.fr/actu/economie/rafale- ... 7776579559

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 13 Feb 2015 23:50

If you want to refresh your knowledge on the rafale, here is a brochure provided by Dassault:

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-con ... ile_UK.pdf

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 13 Feb 2015 23:52

Rafale for Egypt: details of the contract.

The agreement between France and Egypt, to be formally signed monday in Cairo,is of 5.2 billion euros. This is, in fact, 5 different contracts signed with Dassault Aviation (Rafale) , MBDA (missiles), DCNS (FREMM frigate), Sagem (for A2SM bombs) and Lacroix (for different systems like decoys). The smallest of them is higher than 100 million euros, according to the ministry of Defense.
[...]
The contract is for 24 Rafale: 16 Rafale B and 8 Rafale C. The first 3, to be delivered in the coming months will be taken on the Dassault assembly lines in Merignac, 3 aircrafts originally intended for the AdlA. Egyptian planes will have the same standard as the French, able to complete all missions (except, of course, the firing of nuclear missile ASMPA). The planes will have both recce capabilities (pod Reco-NG) and cruise missile attacks, Black Shaheen in this case, the export version of the Scalp. The 24 aircraft, to be delivered over a period of five years, will all be fully manufactured in France and Egypt did not seek technology transfer.
[...]


http://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defe ... ayer-21335

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 13 Feb 2015 23:58

Viv S wrote:It is not self evident since we're not discussing the same company performing different tasks. Its an odd choice of word ('difficult') but sticking with it BHEL might find it more 'difficult' to manufacture a gun than HAL would find manufacturing an aircraft. Unless you know the core competencies of both companies, its impossible to say.


It does not matter which company, manufacturing an advanced fighter jet is much more difficult than manufacturing a gun. I don't understand how you can try to deny this.

Viv S wrote:You think penalties involved might run into a couple of billion... :shock:


Easily.

If the max penalty was small
1. Dassault wouldn't be making a big deal about it.
2. It wouldn't be much of a penalty.

Viv S wrote:Then subtract the workshare assigned to Rolls Royce, Selex, Thales, Martin Baker, GKN, Cobham etc and BAE is left with work contracts worth less than $5bn.)


That's not how it works. The liability rests solely with the owners, not with any of their subcontractors. Martin Baker will get paid regardless. And it might be from BAE paying them out of its own pockets.


Viv S wrote:The assembly line at Lancashire is built on land reclaimed from marsh (or bog or whatever). Its not stable and undulations have to be accounted for. The moon doesn't have to be taken into account when you're working in Bangalore or Nagpur.


That's not clear. The moon causes all ground to shift.


Viv S wrote:On an earlier visit to the HAL's new production line, Business Standard learnt that Tejas production tolerances are as tight as 0.08 millimetres; and 0.2 millimetres for contoured (curved) parts.


A couple points:
- That's the LCA not the MKI
- That's for component manufacturing. I was referring to the assembly part of the article.

Viv S wrote:3. Companies are still willing to bid on it as OTO Melara proved.


So far we have 2 instances of companies unwilling to accept the condition. That says Dassault isn't being entirely unreasonable.

And the only example you have shown so far of someone accepting the condition is a very poor one because the company already has good ties with the contractor and is currently manufacturing a similar product.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 14 Feb 2015 00:10

NRao wrote:OK, the cat is coming out of the bag. time to pay attention.

The Rafale sale is actually ...........................

French Navy Plans Around Ship Sale to Egypt

The French Navy sees no problem with a prospective sale of the Normandie multimission frigate to Egypt, and in return has asked that sister ships be delivered more quickly so it has six of the new warships delivered by 2018, Navy Chief of Staff Adm. Bernard Rogel said.

The Normandie, a 6,000-ton frigate or frégate multimission (FREMM) built by DCNS, is a key asset in an export package worth €5 billion-€6 billion (US $5.7 billion-$6.8 billion) under negotiation with Egypt.

But if the frigate does sail away under the Egyptian flag and if the French Navy does receive the sister ships under the requested schedule, the French government is likely to come under further budgetary strain.

"Just for now it's not a done deal," Rogel said Monday when asked about the talks with Egypt.


Seems to me that Egypt actually wanted the ship and got sucked in by the Rafale typhoon.

So much for a sale for the Rafale.


That's wrong, Sisi personally requested Rafales and Frigate to French MinDef who then gave a call to Dassaults CEO (listen to Dassault CEO radio interview and his anecdote). The contract was supervised by Sisi directly without all the usual intermediaries in such deals. For this reason the sale was concluded very quickly. Sisi even met Dassault CEO personnaly at his office to give the guidelines of Egypt's request. Not usual to see a head of state being so diectly involved in a deal negotiation.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 14 Feb 2015 00:14

Egypt : [some additional informations (JD Merchet/Secret Defense)]

[...]
According to our sources, it does not seem that Saudi Arabia, which supports the Egyptian military regime, will directly put some money into it, like they did to equip the Lebanese army with french equipment. However, the Gulf monarchies financially support Egypt: The Gulf Cooperation Council has filed $ 10 billion at the Egyptian Central Bank.

Since the return to power of the Egyptian army, which ousted the Muslim Brotherhood in July 2013, President Sissi - Marshal in a previous life - embodies a nationalist course. He wants to free himself from the grip of the United States, this country does not appreciate the violence of the ongoing crackdown against Islamic circles (about 2,000 deaths).

One of the main signals that have convinced President Sissi to switch to France came from the UAE, an Egypt ally. Last summer, the Emiratis bombed Islamist positions in Libya, with the support of Egypt. To conduct these strikes, they used their Mirage 2000-9 instead of their F-16 because the United States have, according to French sources, vetoed on the use of US made fighter-bombers. And the egyptian fleet is now mostly composed of F-16 ... Hence the desire to diversify, quickly, its supply of military equipment with countries such as France, without doubt less fussy on how they're being used. As explained by Dassault "Rafale meets the needs of countries that, like Egypt, demand a sovereign air force of the best level." This policy had made the success of French arms exports in the 70s, offering an alternative to the United States and the Soviet Union.

http://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defe ... lise-21321

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 14 Feb 2015 12:18

Another new report on the rafale (Navy this time). A rafale M pilot who flew Super Etendard, F18 as an instructor in the US navy, gives its impression about the rafale he now flies.

If you read the report on the original page there are plenty of nice pictures to illustrate the article:

http://www.globalaviationresource.com/v ... de-gaulle/

Military Exercise – 11 Flottille’s Rafales work-up on R91, Charles de Gaulle

by Steve Comber | Feb 5, 2015 | Exercises and Deployments,

The Aéronavale’s 11 Flottille (11F) was recently deployed to the Mediterranean on board aircraft carrier R91, Charles de Gaulle, for a work-up exercise aimed at preparing the squadron for forthcoming deployment. One of the squadron’s Dassault Rafale pilots spoke to Steve Comber during a recent embark of France’s potent aircraft carrier, relating his experiences of flying and training on both the Dassault Super Etendard and the Rafale.

Sunday, 23 November 2014. At short notice I find myself standing on the quayside in Toulon Naval Base, southern France, on a sunny but cold day, waiting for transfer by boat to the flagship of the French Navy, R91 Charles de Gaulle.

This would be my third embark on the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in four years. The three day/two night embark offered a rare opportunity to witness a standard work-up exercise, prior to a possible politically-led deployment of the flagship and its protecting fleet at any time should the need arise. One key aspect of this exercise was to test the power projection of the carrier wing with only one aircraft type, the Dassault Rafale, as, following the mid-life overhaul of Charles de Gaulle in 2017, the Super Etendard will be withdrawn from service.

The embarkation in late-November deterred many invitees, not least due to a predicted gloomy weather forecast for this work-up period, resulting in only three other photo journalists on-board. However, the in-depth presentation of R91’s capability and current global role became quickly evident. Only one squadron of Rafales, hailing from 11F, was deployed to the ship together with Dauphin and the 50-year old trustworthy and very capable Alouette III helicopters for rescue and supply support.

Admittedly the weather for aviation photography was, to say the least, varied and changeable; it’s not all sunshine at sea, even in the Mediterranean in late-November – however, that’s really what it’s all about: projecting global power come rain or shine. With several interviews from which to draw insight, I have chosen to feature an 11F squadron pilot’s appraisal of the exercise. The pilot started his presentation by stating his rank and, for security purposes, that was all we were getting…
My entry to the crew room is greeted by an almighty KERBOOM… KERBOOM… as two Rafales fire off the deck directly above our heads, making any conversation momentarily impossible. A quick glance at the black and white television monitors confirms what’s going on up on the flight deck, and with a lull in activity bringing about relative quiet, we settle in to talk ship:


****

“I’m [the] Lieutenant of [a] 11F squadron Rafale, pilot callsign ‘Wallace’. I started flying the Super Etendard with 11F squadron in 2004, having completed my pilot training in the US with VT-7 at NAS Meridian, Missisippi, where all French pilots have conducted training since the early ‘90s.

“I flew the Super E for about three and a half years in both Afghanistan and Libya – that was quite an experience – followed by a two-year tour as an instructor on the F/A-18 with US Navy VFA-106 at NAS Oceana. I’ve been flying the Rafale for a year and a half and am currently finalising my transition training qualification right now. The Super E is regarded as the ‘Swiss Army knife’ in the French Navy carrier wing. It’s still a very capable delivery platform and very stable at low level in the anti-shipping role with no [modern] flight control systems. As a pilot, you fall in love with your first plane, and the Super E was my first love!

“The F-18 gave me an introduction and greater insight for the air-to-air role which I’ve been conducting more recently with Rafale. The two years spent on the F-18 offered a really good transition from Super E to Rafale; I’m very grateful to have been given this opportunity. We have also recently had an exchange with the Greek Air Force A-7s, and this French exchange programme has proved very successful for more than 30 years. There is always a French pilot flying with the fleet replacement squadron at Oceana and we have an American exchange pilot currently flying the Super E with the French Navy right now. There are very close links with the US Navy and French carrier wing; Operation Bellwood last year proved these close links a valuable asset for inter-operations – it ensures we do business the same way.

“With the Super E on the way out service we are obviously focussing to ensure Rafale can do the job previously carried out by the two types. Rafale can do so much, it’s a massive step forward in terms of capability from the Super E and is equally in front of the F-18 in terms of performance. The new AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar increases the aircraft’s ability four-fold. The amount of tasks the plane can perform at the same time is just amazing. It’s incredibly user friendly, allowing you to quickly crew in, start up, type in the mission profile you are to perform and off you go! You feel limitless with the possibilities available. Situational awareness is sensational; you always know what’s around you, with integration of sensors, radar, countermeasures and communications all working together, or ‘fusionised’ as we say in French!

“Everything comes together in a single screen, and flying the Rafale is simply joyous – it’s very powerful and manoeuvrable; you are invincible! It regains its energy very quickly; the global aerodynamic engine package makes the Rafale so nice to fly, the rate of roll is amazing and it’s very easy to fly at slow speed. I am super happy as a pilot to be flying this versatile airframe. There is always a big smile on my face after every flight!

“All new Rafales will be delivered with AESA radar. The early deliveries are being reworked – we just received the first M10 last month – and all the electronic systems will be upgraded. The Meteor missile is in trial and hopefully will enter service in 2018 subject to test clearance. With the use of Link 16 and Meteor it will give us a significant advantage beyond visual range. It’s quite likely the existing training areas will be too small for Meteor weapons training, and perhaps we will have to adapt our training for this new missile; it’s like switching from a bow and arrow to a big powder gun!

“The Rafale has matured into a capable and proven weapons delivery platform. With all this capability we have to be up to speed on systems, hence our 180-200 hours’ flying per year, per pilot. Simulators help a lot but this will never replace real-time physical flying. Simulators help at an early stage in the process – it’s always better to make mistakes before you jump into the aircraft. The flight hours we receive now are sufficient to allow proficiency in every role. It’s quite challenging because Rafale adds more and more pilot tasking as its capability matures every year. Does this mean we as pilots will max out in our ability to control all the systems? I personally don’t think so. You never get bored, and I’m not sure we will ever be overloaded – humans are very flexible, we adapt.

“With good training we will pave the way for new pilots, as things become more complicated we will adjust to ensure good pilots can cope with these additional capabilities. The French Navy and Air Force have been heavily tasked in past years, particularly in Africa and the Middle East, but that’s our job – we train to be ready. We are always busy; our political leaders have trust in what we are doing. Of course I am not happy there are wars and conflicts in the world but that is our job, and I am confident we are doing the job right and training for the right reasons.

“With NATO assets heavily tasked in the last 20 years it’s necessary for us to be 100% committed. Currently, there are 18 pilots on the squadron all involved in the work-up exercise performing a similar number of hours with ops to ensure they all have the same amount of experience in all aspects of operation, both day, and, once ready, at night! Our pilots all need to be at the same level of experience. When we are called into combat it’s essential you can rely on your wingman – you have to work as an integrated team to be ready.

“Exercises like NATO Tiger Meet and TLP are an important and integral part of our training, and invaluable in keeping up to date with new tactics; there is always something to learn from our NATO allies! Tiger Meet is very big – it’s not all show and fanciness, however. These large exercises should be mandatory for all NATO members to ensure we are at the top level of our game for operational readiness. It is always complicated to mix our schedules with Tiger Meet. We attend as often as we can, [and] we want to be there this year for the invaluable training environment it offers, but it’s not always possible due to our own training programmes. We think we will be deployed [elsewhere] in 2015 when the next one is held in Konya, Turkey, though we are working very hard to participate if possible. As a full member of the NATO Tiger Association we feel obliged to participate, but deployment at sea always comes first.

“Land-based operations are an important part of our training – it’s never easy to land on a boat! But the Rafale makes it easier, this is true – compared to the Super E it’s easy! The Super E is just on the limit when landing – almost at stall speed, invariably behind its power curve and bucking around at 7-8 knots from stall speed, it’s quite difficult without any aids. Having been a Super E pilot myself I feel quite proud to have experienced and achieved this, and I always have admiration for the pilots who continue to do this, especially at night.

“The Rafale flight control system, coupled with the power reserve of the engine, make it a very smooth aircraft to land on a carrier – it instills confidence. The auto follower keeps your angle of attack to a certain limit, and this, combined with actuation of flight control surfaces, ensures aerodynamics are at their optimum just at the right moment. Those 15 seconds as you sink towards the boat are much more stable than the Super E, especially at night. Not only that, you can carry much more weaponry back to the boat – it was designed for this purpose – so yes, it’s easier to land on the boat, although, like I say, it’s never easy!

“Each pilot should receive about ten to 12 hours’ flying time during this training period with a typical mission of one and a half hours – there is a little bit extra for those that fly at night. Today was very interesting [as] we were trying to defend the boat for ten hours straight off, and we have had Mirage 2000s coming from Orange in the east.

“Many other threats have launched against us including helicopters, so it’s very interesting to spend a full day like this proving we are capable of defending ourselves with just one squadron of Rafales and 18 pilots. With two jets flying, if not more, at all times it’s quite an achievement with only half of the air wing here on Charles de Gaulle. On my flight we had multiple threats with two Alpha Jets, Hunters from the Apache company and four Mirage 2000Ns – and all of that in one hour! It was quite an intense period. This level of activity should continue and increase for the rest of the day for sure.

“Our most experienced pilot is currently at Nellis, nicknamed the ‘big grey owl’ (a reference to the fact that night qualified pilots wear an owl patch on their flight suits) [and] he has more than 200 night traps on the Super E. We wait until pilots are combat-ready before training and tasking night landing. In difference, all US Navy pilots land night and day straight after qualification, but with Charles de Gaulle being a smaller boat with narrower margins for error we prefer not to push our assets too hard. Weather limits are critical, and it all depends on sea levels. After 25 traps you are cleared to land on the carrier in all weathers, but there are limits in rough sea states.

“During the training phase we carry out between 25-40 landings using a procedure called “Zip It”. No one talks on the boat, you come in silent on your own in daytime, then you do the same at night; it depends on sea state, weapons configuration and wind etc. and, of course, if we have helicopter cover.

http://www.globalaviationresource.com/v ... de-gaulle/

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 14 Feb 2015 13:20

:mrgreen: everyone loves an audi ..but to use it in place of a maruti ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 14 Feb 2015 16:55

Dassault "confident" of Rafale deal with India

PARIS: French defence company Dassault Aviation today said it was "very confident" that three years of talks with India on the sale of 126 Rafales worth 12 billion euros would result in a deal. Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation which manufactures Rafale, in an interview with BFM television, said talks were slow as India wanted some of the jets manufactured at home in a bid to boost defence manufacturing, meaning the details of every nut and bolt had to be agreed upon [...].

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... aign=cppst

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 14 Feb 2015 18:29

That's wrong


Is there a "right"? Never seen one.

Clearly there is a French view and then there an Indian view (much as there seems to be one in the FGFA scene). And the two views have been rather far apart (which is why these posts of yours will make no sense).

It does not mean that the views will not converge - for they will (at least IMHO).

The question is should the views converge - especially considering the cost of the Rafale.



From what I can see, the French made too many assumptions while bidding for the MMRCA (leave that silly Egyptian deal alone - not even a deal) (it is more of a tmp high). The two that I can see: That India would buy into the participating in the F3 upgrade up front (which seems to be the cost escalation to $20 billion) and the second that Dassault will have a leg up getting Reliance involved (and thus gain control within India).

Well, both seem have fallen flat on the face. What is taking so long - IMVVHO - is for Dassault to unwind from the two assumptions she made. Not an easy task.

India will buy the Rafale (win), IAF will get the plane she selected for her MMRCA (win), the MoD/FinMin will pay $11 billion for the 126 (win) and the Indian Labs (I feel) will lose out - because the techs that will be sent under "ToT" will be at least a generation old - of no value to India (IMHO). NO F3 techs.

Which I think is just fine. Use the Rafale for 15-20 years and toss them out. (the logic being IF India cannot produce a plane that is better than a Rafale (or Dassault) in 15/20 years then India better get out of the plan design/manu business).

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Feb 2015 20:57

^^^ if we blow $11bn on the Rafale with no benefit to labs, we are indeed out of the design/manufacturing business. Not mention every other military purchase.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby GeorgeWelch » 14 Feb 2015 21:16

NRao wrote:Which I think is just fine. Use the Rafale for 15-20 years and toss them out. (the logic being IF India cannot produce a plane that is better than a Rafale (or Dassault) in 15/20 years then India better get out of the plan design/manu business).


Even if you can build a better plane, that doesn't mean you immediately eliminate all the previous ones. Witness MKI and MiG-21 . . . .

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 14 Feb 2015 22:00

GeorgeWelch wrote:
NRao wrote:Which I think is just fine. Use the Rafale for 15-20 years and toss them out. (the logic being IF India cannot produce a plane that is better than a Rafale (or Dassault) in 15/20 years then India better get out of the plan design/manu business).


Even if you can build a better plane, that doesn't mean you immediately eliminate all the previous ones. Witness MKI and MiG-21 . . . .


There are two (and perhaps more) types of "eliminate": the planes themselves and the reliance on foreign vendors to make major decisions. I am referring to the latter. When I say in 15/20 years toss the Rafale out what I mean is 1) IF upgrading them, then do not rely of France for an upgrade - upgrade them within India and 2) make sufficient progress within India to make the Rafale (MKI)(in 15/20 years) obsolete.

Hate to revisit it, but if the LCA were "ready" you would not be mentioning the MiG-21 now. And, if the FGFA had made progress we would not even be thinking of getting more MKIs. Even the MKI for Rafale would (should) have been FGFA for Rafale.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 15 Feb 2015 20:29

This article is wrong on one point : rafale production rate can increase to meet additional demand. So the point saying time is playing against India is false.


Time Plays Against India in Rafale MMRCA Program

PARIS --- India’s prevarication on the long-delayed contract to buy 18 Rafale fighters and assemble 108 more could end up seriously disrupting its air force modernization plans, as Egypt’s order for 24 aircraft, and a possible order for 36 more by Qatar, will absorb available production and push back deliveries to India.
It is already too late for the 18 French-made aircraft that the Indian Air Force urgently needs to be delivered beginning in 2018, as originally planned, and additional export orders could delay them into the next decade.

France has stretched out its own deliveries to reduce annual payments, and the current Rafale production rate at Dassault Aviation’s Bordeaux-Mérignac plant is of 11 aircraft per year -- the minimum rate the company says is economically feasible. Deliveries to France this year include 7 two-seat nuclear strike variants for the French air force and 4 Rafale M carrier variants for the navy, none of which can be exported, initial deliveries to Egypt will be made using aircraft already in service with the French air force, and which will have to be replaced later.

Delivery of new aircraft to Egypt is not slated to begin before 2018, as ramping up production requires about three years, as the Rafale supply chain, comprising about 500 companies accustomed to being drip-fed orders at the current minimum rate, needs time to ramp up and to order and receive long-lead items. “Egypt wants its aircraft quickly, and we have been authorized to take some aircraft now being built for France,” Dassault Chief Executive Eric Trappier said in a Feb 13 interview with RTL radio. Dassault Aviation did not return telephone calls seeking clarification.
Trappier added that “Qatar and other neighboring countries are also interested,” but did not name them. Bahrain, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates have been previously cited as possible buyers of Rafale.
France is to receive 26 more Rafales by 2019, and a Qatari order for 36 Rafales would take up another three or four years of production, leaving few free delivery slots before 2020 at the earliest.

Indian Air Force hobbled by obsolescence

Meanwhile, even as it drags its feet on the Rafale contract, the combat strength of the Indian air force is evaporating because it must retire its obsolete fighters much faster than they can be replaced.
The Indian Air Force has an authorized strength of 42 fighter squadrons, each with 18 aircraft. However, by last year its fighter strength had dropped to only 25 squadrons -- 14 of them equipped with elderly MiG-21s and MiG-27s -- according to a late December report by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence.
The Committee’s report “expressed concern over the dwindling number of fighter squadrons in the Indian Air Force….The revelation is astonishing, and the committee feels that the paradox in the required and sanctioned strength needs to be rectified at the earliest,” The Hindu reported Dec. 29.

Ironically, it is to avoid just such a fighter shortfall that India launched the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition in 2007, after earlier efforts to procure a new fighter failed. Rafale was declared winner in January 2012, but contract negotiations have dragged on since. “India is a country that takes its time…what is taking time here is setting up an industrial partnership that will ultimately allow India to produce all the parts” for the complete aircraft, Dassault’s Trappier said.

In a nutshell, India wants Dassault to provide a warranty for the aircraft assembled ad later produced in India by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL).This would have the French firm taking on contractual responsibility for HAL’s production, over which it however has no control.

Dassault, which had originally selected privately-owned Reliance Industries as its partner for the program, is steadfast in its refusal to provide such a guarantee, which according to a senior company official would be “a direct route to bankruptcy.” “Dassault will not be responsible for the whole contract [because] it’s a co-management arrangement,” French defense procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon told reporters here Feb. 9, adding that the company had the government’s full backing in this dispute. He jokingly added that having Dassault guarantee HAL’s work “cannot be a problem, because it was not included in the original RFP” and so cannot be added retrospectively.

Faced with persistent– but so far baseless – allegations of corruption in past defense deals, India in recent years enacted inflexible defense procurement procedures and regulations that allow no latitude in how it manages the MMRCA project. Having thus painted itself into a corner, India must find a face-saving solution that will allow it to sign the contract without appearing to back down on its warranty demands. As the forthcoming visit to Paris by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in April provides an ideal occasion for signing, India has less than two months to find a way out.


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ws/page436

rate of production could be increased from less than 1 rafale per month (11 per year) to three rafale per month as confirmed by Dassault earned newspeper " Le figaro ". To repeat : the point of the hear above article is wrong.

Et si, comme la France l'espère, d'autres contrats export sont signés, Dassault Aviation a assez de «marge de réserve» pour augmenter la cadence de 1 à 2,5 à 3 Rafale par mois, avec tout ce que cela suppose de retombées pour ses partenaires et sous-traitants.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2015 ... tional.php
Last edited by arthuro on 15 Feb 2015 20:39, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 15 Feb 2015 20:30

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