Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 11:56

I know but even upgraded it Is very unlikely it Will change the core of its avionics architecture
Upgraded sensor yes but it will be very hard to match rafale highly integrated and fused sensor suite. The same limitation will happen. It took two decades to get the rafale where it is and look at f35 software issues.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2015 12:06

Barring the F-22 and stealth fighters to come,which aircraft in service is superior to the SU-30 MKI/35? Most international analysts plump for the Flanker and its variants. Most of the other aircraft belong to the legacy of the 70s onwards,which have been progressively upgraded as new tech arrived,esp. in the digital/IT age. Even the TVC MIG-35 is considered as the best dogfighter flying. The core issue for a cash-strapped govt.,an IAF with a drastically reduced combat fleet,with a host of requirements from combat aircraft,AEW aircraft,tankers,trainers,transports,etc.,is how to spread the money available most judiciously and not lopsidedly on just one "sports car" acquisition. To again quote Adm.Greenert,the Chief of the USN,who said that one didn't necessarily need a sports car when a bomb truck would do in the age of smart bomns,stand-off weapons,etc.

The argument put forward by many of the Rafale's proponents that the Rafale is required to replace the MIG-21s is simply absurd.That role was/is meant for the LCA,a small lightweight affordable fighter which can be built in the hundreds,whose success depends upon lighting a fire beloow the backsides of those responsible for its development,testing and production.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 27 Feb 2015 12:24

I think what's worrying the Russians most is that the Rafale is actually superior to the FGFA.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2015 12:33

:rotfl:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2015 12:39

I am suspicious of any a/c that needs 3 enormous drop tanks (eating up the 3 heavy pylons) to get into a fight with stuff like the F-15E/Su30 that carry enough fuel internally.

not to speak of the performance limitations with that loadout.

as a DPSA bird you want enough range on internal fuel to keep all pylons free and carry a shitload of heavy weapons (right down to the tailpipe in the 15E case)....expensive guided weapons are only affordable and available to USAF in any serious quantity...rest have to keep it for special targets.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby eklavya » 27 Feb 2015 12:42

The rotting stinking carcass of the Russian economy can ill afford to develop a true 5th Gen fighter, unless they start leasing out parts of Siberia to PRC. This government has a clear sighted view of the future.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby JTull » 27 Feb 2015 12:51

Philip wrote:The shahs of the military
Mohan Guruswamy | February 27, 2015,

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150227/c ... s-military



What a convoluted point of view? LCA-Tejas does not need invoking Iran's Shah and surely IAF didn't go thru the evaluations like Shah did. 14000 pages of contract is not the same as picking things out of AWST.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 27 Feb 2015 13:15

arthuro wrote:And the SU-30 is now obsolete. There is about a 20 years of technology evolution between the the two types.

Exept its size There is nothing extraordinary with the sukhoi.

The rafale has more range, more payload, better situation awarness, better ergonomics and better survivability.


MODERATOR NOTE: You're advised to desist from making such outlandish statement. Supporting your home grown fighter does not need to be accompanied by dissing other product. Take this as a caution. Next such infringement will get you a ban - rohitvats.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 27 Feb 2015 13:17

India seems to be blessed with such 'Strategic Experts'! And to think, these people actually influence decision. It would be better if they stick to their area of expertise and not give sermons on everything under the Sun.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 27 Feb 2015 14:36

arthuro wrote:And the SU-30 is now obsolete. There is about a 20 years of technology evolution between the the two types.

Exept its size There is nothing extraordinary with the sukhoi.

The rafale has more range, more payload, better situation awareness, better ergonomics and better survivability.


:mrgreen:

seriously BRF is not populated by dumb idiots .. anyone can make an internet search to get a broad comparison of the fighter planes !! better stick to facts and figures

there is nothing extraordinary about any fighter out there ! What matters is which fits into the IAF tactics and ensure the soverignity and capability of the country ... India s defense budget is for the country and not to enrich any other nations coffers and it is certainly not a given that India will purchase fighters from other countries for all eternity !!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 15:00

My point of view is based on return of experiences from red flag 2008 and Garuda exercises. You can call it one sided but the capablity of the SU30 was often discussed in the specialized press. I remember having posted some of them here.

What was reported by french pilots in various report: The SU-30 is an impressive aircraft because it is big and powerfull. However it is quite basic compared to the newer generation of western airctafts. Raw Power compensates for the lack of sofistication.

I am not intending to start a flame war but to share another point of view. You are free to make your own opinion.

PS: I am wrting on a smartphone. I appologize for the short messages and I hope it won't appear disrespectfull. I wish I could elaborate more.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby negi » 27 Feb 2015 15:29

^ If you are trying to sell something to someone be nice to them , with such an attitude we won't even buy a F-22. :twisted:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pralay » 27 Feb 2015 15:57

+1 Negi :D

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 15:58

Well I am not a salesman and I am not Dassault/France. I just share an opinion as an individual. So no pb. It is funny to see how some could take an anonymous poster as the incarnation of ze evil french and Dassault...sharing a different pov is risky nowadays :-?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 27 Feb 2015 16:14

arthuro wrote:Well I am not a salesman and I am not Dassault/France. I just share an opinion as an individual. So no pb. It is funny to see how some could take an anonymous poster as the incarnation of ze evil french and Dassault...sharing a different pov is risky nowadays :-?


we welcome a different pov certainly ., thats what forums are for .. to encourage a healthy discussion .. but please stick to facts when you get your pov across !

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 27 Feb 2015 16:14

Gicen the foll. news item,who will guarantee that the same will not be experienced with the Rafale?

India delays induction of first Scorpene submarine
26 February 2015
http://www.naval-technology.com/news/ne ... ne-4520740

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 16:47

I stick to facts. Check on wiki (english to be neutral).

Rafale payload: 9.5t
Su30mki payload: 8t

Rafale range: 3700km
SU30MKI range: 3000km

Most of Su30mki avionics dates from mid-end 90s while current rafale is around 2010 and the F3R version is around 2015.

@Philip : IAF is very satisfied of Mirage 2000 upgrades. Article posted on this thread.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby sattili » 27 Feb 2015 17:18

arthuro wrote:I stick to facts. Check on wiki (english to be neutral).

Rafale payload: 9.5t
Su30mki payload: 8t

Rafale range: 3700km
SU30MKI range: 3000km



Just a small quibble with the bolded part above sir. From Wikipedia you get the following:

Rafale:
Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi) with 3 drop tanks


SU30MKI:
Range: 3,000 km (1,620 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level; with no external fuel tanks)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Ramu » 27 Feb 2015 18:41

when it comes to imports, it starts to depreciate from the day you sign a deal. This is like law of gravity and one must consider signing a deal based on this fact.

Most of the aircrafts in IAF inventory has been kept as contemporary as possible in terms of their capability. The reason is because IAF managed to utilise the technologies developed and expertise gained from the LCA project even before the mother goose LCA received its IOC-I.

When we consider Rafale for 15-20bn, we must look at what we are doing with M2Ks to keep it contemporary other than signing an upgrade deal worth 2.4bn. Because we will end up doing the same with Rafale in 20 years.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mihir » 27 Feb 2015 18:58

JTull wrote:
Philip wrote:The shahs of the military
Mohan Guruswamy | February 27, 2015,

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150227/c ... s-military

What a convoluted point of view? LCA-Tejas does not need invoking Iran's Shah and surely IAF didn't go thru the evaluations like Shah did. 14000 pages of contract is not the same as picking things out of AWST.

Once you get past the egregious comparison between Pahlavi and the Indian security establishment, much of what he has written makes complete sense. I have seen the same arguments made by BRF gurus from time to time.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28722 » 27 Feb 2015 19:19

arthuro wrote:I stick to facts. Check on wiki (english to be neutral).

Rafale payload: 9.5t
Su30mki payload: 8t

Rafale range: 3700km
SU30MKI range: 3000km

Most of Su30mki avionics dates from mid-end 90s while current rafale is around 2010 and the F3R version is around 2015.

@Philip : IAF is very satisfied of Mirage 2000 upgrades. Article posted on this thread.

Buddy it's impossible that a medium weight category aicraft has longer range than a heavy category aircraft
Regarding outdatedness... have you heard of something called as Super Sukhoi?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 19:23

True with 3 drop tanks, but there is still plenty of space for missiles : 6 AASM and 6 AtA missiles. Does the su30 mki has drop tanks ? (genuine and honest question. I dont know).

It Is entirely possible That the rafale beat the Su on range : 15t of fuel is more than the sukhoi (internal+external) and its engines are much more efficient.

Have you seen latest MoD statement ? Deal is now under review by indian government which would mean negotiation are over.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 27 Feb 2015 19:26

Mihir wrote:
JTull wrote:What a convoluted point of view? LCA-Tejas does not need invoking Iran's Shah and surely IAF didn't go thru the evaluations like Shah did. 14000 pages of contract is not the same as picking things out of AWST.

Once you get past the egregious comparison between Pahlavi and the Indian security establishment, much of what he has written makes complete sense. I have seen the same arguments made by BRF gurus from time to time.


+1 in general.

Bolded: I think India has a very, very small window and pretty much one shot to get this right.

The cost of the Rafale will not be a huge impact to the ground realities, but anything north of $11 billion the Rafale is not worth it. A great aircraft as it is.

On the same note, I am wish this and especially the previous CAS had chosen better words to communicate what they needed to communicate. Their problem is well understood, I am certain they need help - as of 10 years ago. But, there are still ways to work around their problem and get what the IAF absolutely needs and not get the rest in a tangle.

And, just for the record, I do not think posts of how much the IAF loves French articles, etc, does not help.

In fact, IF this deal comes in over $11 billion, I can see Indo-French relations decline somewhat. The French products - as far as I can see - are outstanding, but their cost is outright vulgar.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 27 Feb 2015 19:28


It Is entirely possible That the rafale beat the Su on range : 15t of fuel is more than the sukhoi (internal+external) and its engines are much more efficient


Gold plated planes are not what India needs.

What about the COST/ Something you have ignored consistently for eons.

Give the Rafale at the cost of the MKI and all is good.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 19:34

15 billions for 126 aircrafts : 120 million per aircraft. Cheaper than the 150 million Brazil is paying for gripen NG.

With full ToT and local manifacturing this seems to be a very honest deal.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby uddu » 27 Feb 2015 19:40

There was a time when Tejas were no where in sight and Mig-21's were falling like flies. Today the situation is little different and better with large number of Sukhoi's in service and Tejas entering service. Options are open.

Money saved can go for PAKFA and AMCA programs and engine development along with other programs.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby uddu » 27 Feb 2015 19:41

arthuro wrote:15 billions for 126 aircrafts : 120 million per aircraft. Cheaper than the 150 million Brazil is paying for gripen NG.

With full ToT and local manifacturing this seems to be a very honest deal.


Will be. But Tejas costs 31 million per aircraft. May be Brazil made a mistake. :)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 19:50

If the Tejas competed on international markets or for MMRCA shouldn't we have noticed it ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby uddu » 27 Feb 2015 19:59

If the deal is signed today, we will be getting the first Rafale in 2018. During that time, even the MK2 must have flown with the AESA radar and other technology that will be on par with Rafale. The Rafale will then be more or less comparable to Mark-II which may cost around 40 million or so. The option to upgrade Rafale further can cost more. So better option is to invest in speeding up indigenous products. With the current govt in power, shortly we may hear the good news of export of Tejas.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 20:06

Saying the mk2 would be on par with the rafale is quite speculative IMO. If it was the case, we would see the tejas mk2 being marketed on international markets. MMRCA perf for a fraction of the cost in just a few years...One has to wonder why India is bothering with Mmrca.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2015 20:07

this is probably the last generation in which the EU defence industry manages to retain some sort of closeness with the US level.
with vastly declining defence budgets and other areas of concern like domestic counter terrorism, I guess the days of big ticket projects like EF, A400M, Horizon, U212 are kind of over

is there any major pan-european or single EU defence project that started post 2008 ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby uddu » 27 Feb 2015 20:19

Export of weapons was never a priority for India. And whatever is there it's done in a shoddy way. Hopefully we can hope good news on exports. Hope the defense ministry takes things seriously and gets deal especially the ones like Brahmos, CABS Radar much more quickly followed by for Tejas.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Indranil » 27 Feb 2015 20:23

Arthuro,

I believe that IAF and our mil-ind will gain from Rafales. Unfortunately, the reasons are very different from ones that you state (if I may add), because of your pride. It is alright, we all love our favourites. Anyways...

Su-30 does not have external drop tanks, because it is designed to be a long range fighter. When you sling 3 large drop tanks, the Rafale does not remain a fighter. It becomes a bomb truck with which you can fly over friendly airspace and drop bombs on far away country with small or non-existent air defense. Our theatre is not like that. Our enemies are right next-door and have strong airforces and air defense systems. With in flight-refueling, the Su-30 can spend 3-4 hours in enemy territory, and can defend itself while doing so. This is more than enough, and the reason why it is revered.

Similarly, it is true that when compared to the Rafale, the Su-30 is a brute. This is especially true about RCS and the man-machine interface. The first is overcome by having an extremely powerful radar (another brute method) and the second is overcome by having 2 pilots in there. The Rafale is also a generation ahead in terms of manufacturing technology and hence maintenance. That is why India is trying to stock up on parts and go the extra mile to bring the availability of these fighters up to 70-80%. With fighters, you can't do much better than that, no matter which generation technology you are using. On the other hand, at half the price and comparable availability, you will always have more Su-30s in the air. And that, is a HUGE advantage.

When it comes aerodynamics, the Su-30 is as refined as the Rafale. It is more manueverable than the Rafale with almost twice the number of control surface along any axis (3 along the pitch, and 3 along the yaw, and 3 along the roll). But the Rafale has higher agility (when it is not carrying those drop tanks). It is simple physics. Find out the structural limitations placed on the Rafale when it is carrying those 3 tanks and calculate the TWR and wing loading vis-a-vis the Su-30 and you will see why. It is just physics. Can't fight that. There are passengers and cargo planes which carry much more payload than the Rafale with the same thrust, but that does not make them better airplanes. Please don't argue along those lines.

It is for the same reason why people who know their stuff, laugh when Gripen NG fanboys tot the brochures saying it can carry a similar payload as the Rafale or EF. If not designed by baboons, a light fighter cannot compete with a medium weight fighter and a medium weight fighter cannot compete with a heavy weight fighter, and none of them can compete with a cargo plane in terms of leg-space. These are designed by the best in the business, and tailored to the requirements.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 27 Feb 2015 20:32

Some valid points here, but reminds that drop tanks can be dropped if the situation requires it. I agree that would not be an advantage in every situations but overall it should remain relevant.

In terms of sheer payload it does compete very well for its size.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Indranil » 27 Feb 2015 20:56

Yes, but dropping drop tanks is not a sustainable model of training or fighting. It is (as it should be) only an emergency procedure.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 27 Feb 2015 21:11

Dropping tanks restricts your TOS. As mentioned by indranilroy, it is a last ditch effort to engage an active threat whether that is air to air or from a SAM. It is a tradeoff between survivability (drop the tanks and gain performance) and persistence. CFT's are a better investment given that you do not sacrifice " as much " performance with them as you do with heavy tanks, however even CFT's are second to having internal fuel, which heavies do. If you are planning long term sustained strike and multi-role missions with a smaller fighter that gains TOS or Range through multiple EFT's, you have to factor in mission kills due to having to " ditch and perform" when confronted by threats. It also kills your RCS especially when 4.5 generation aircraft are claiming that they are a heavy step up over legacy 4th gen when it comes to RCS management.

This probably does not matter as much in the MRCA context because the IAF sought fighters in the category they wanted, yet it does make a big difference when you start to compare mission for mission a medium fighter to a heavy (same generation) which would be the case if you started mounting CFT's and EFT's on an F-16 or EFT's on a Typhoon or Rafale vs an Su-30MKI or the Su-35.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2015 21:56

Rafale had done some flying demo with CFT
But not heard about later.

Paf f16 block52 have CFT.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 27 Feb 2015 23:00

arthuro wrote:15 billions for 126 aircrafts : 120 million per aircraft. Cheaper than the 150 million Brazil is paying for gripen NG.

With full ToT and local manifacturing this seems to be a very honest deal.


Its very much the other way round. Brazil paying $150M+ for the Gripen E. The Rafale was found to be substantially more expensive than the Gripen E and therefore rejected by the Brazilians.

A figure of $15 billion for the Indian contract is either misinformation or utter dishonesty i.e. accounting fraud with the real cost only revealed down the line. The former being a more likely explanation.

The final bill for the entire Rafale package will be far in excess of $20bn. Upfront costs might be lower but will also exceed $15bn.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 27 Feb 2015 23:29

Looks like my comments about kicking the tire is just about perfect. AWST has an article titled "France will *not* warranty Indian-built aircraft".

And, the world turns.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 27 Feb 2015 23:36

Do not be surprised if the choice is between the Rafale and FGFA - AWST.

Good pick I would say. Drop the Rafale and pick the FGFA. (A new CAS would not hurt either.)


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