Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 14:55

2017 is going to be a key year per le monde :

The Indian Air Force plans to withdraw from circulation four MiG-21 squadrons, five squadrons of MiG-27 / UPG, and a squadron of MIG 21 bis 2017, losing ten squadrons in just one year .
En savoir plus sur http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... Otpom5P.99

--
the production of su30 is coming to a close. nobody in IAF wants the Tejas mk1 and vague promises from both sides on Tejas mk2.

where will the additional 6 sqds come from thin air is a miracle even if we get 4 sqdns rafale. even a f22 raptor cannot be in 3 places at the same time.

Namo needs to atone for this fig leaf handout by cracking the whip and ordering 90 Tejas mk1 to make the remainder 6 sqdns @ 15/year starting 2016. HAL will need lot of funds and a constant overwatch by a hyman rickover / steve jobs type to shore up its facility and deliver as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 15:02

With MOD leaking like a sieve, french cannily didn't compromise and probably held out knowing the GOI would have to buckle. The c-system left this bomb and ensured we couldn't go to EF either.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Apr 2015 15:11

If the reports are true, then this will become the Boforse of NaMo Sarkar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 15:29

Why? They didnt take a dime.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 10 Apr 2015 15:30

If UPA had inked the deal on terms that is being reported, i along with many would have hit roofs shouting Italian sell out, but changed circumstances and times have forced shut many conspiracy theories. Anyway some augmentation of force. 49 Upgraded Mirages + 60 Rafales = 100 formidable fighting force.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Apr 2015 15:37

New number - NDTV quoting 63

PM in France, Rafale Talks Looking at 63 Fighter Jets For $7.6 Billion: Reports

Make more sense - 7 full squadrons..?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 15:38

The only plus of this deal is if France manages to get us all the aircraft quickly in say five-six years.. and if we choose the most modern config possible. Also weapons can be interchanged Micas etc.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 15:41

If this indeed turns out to be true then its quite certain GOI/Dassault have been negotiating it for quite some time and kept it under wraps while the Rest of media desi and foreign focussed on MMRCA saga.

Hope its true .....what a turn around it would be in the 15 years MMRCA epic story

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Apr 2015 15:42

A deal for 8billion cannot be wrapped up overnight over black coffee and wada pav. This is a trial balloon floated by the Gulf to show something for NaMos visit. If they had pushed it sooner it would have come out in the press sooner...

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 10 Apr 2015 15:50

shukla wrote:New number - NDTV quoting 63

PM in France, Rafale Talks Looking at 63 Fighter Jets For $7.6 Billion: Reports

Make more sense - 7 full squadrons..?

3 squadrons. 21 aircraft in each squadrons.

Break-up
• 18 x active aircrafts
• 1 x aircraft in servicing
• 1 x standby aircraft
• 1 x trainer aircraft

The earlier number was 126 for 6 squadrons.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 15:53

Confirmed by French Press :

India wants to buy Rafales quickly

According to our informations, negotiations between the French and Indian governments were underway Friday morning April 10, for the purchase of 3 Rafale squadrons, 63 planes for 7.2 billion Euros.
"The discussions lasted all night, they are continuing this morning ensures a close source. The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the Paris visit of Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, Friday or Saturday. » If the number of fighters finally ordered was not yet fully arrested Friday morning, the principle of this contract would be granted.
[...]
Concretely, the Indian government would activate an option contained in the main deal for 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, made in France and not in India as provided in the main contract. So, New Delhi would would quickly dispose of the aircraft without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract.
The unit cost of a Rafale produced in India has indeed proved superior to that produced in France, due to the need to establish a comprehensive network of contractors, non-existent there, and to train teams.

The Rafale 'make in India ", with 108 aircraft would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.
[...]
According to the Indian press, the purchase of 63 Rafale could mean the abandonment of the main contract. This information was not confirmed in Paris, Friday morning.

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html

Interesting to hear that from the french side, the main contract for 126 rafales would not be canceled. The 63 aircrafts are taken from the "option" discussed on top of the MRCA contract so that India can quickly makes up for squadron number. Then the main contract would quik in with the following aircrafts build in India once negotiation are over (in a few years...

)

That would make 63+126 = 189 rafales !

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Apr 2015 15:57

Karan M wrote:Why? They didnt take a dime.

No one will give a damn, who took money or who did not. The INC will milk it and the presstitutes will fan the flames.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2015 16:20

I hope this is pure speculation, after all this jut blindly importing Rafales without even making them in India. UPA by delaying MMRCAA would have won out if we are directly purchasing from France.

Meanwhile no support for LCA.

Parrikar et all will look shaby if they go for these direct purchases supporting the French Industry while abandoning LCA.

If they dont do this direct purchase then I think they are on the right track and DDM is completely sold out.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 16:31

Livefist:

It turns out Livefist had it right back in January. Top sources say the governments of India and France will shortly announce a deal for 60 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is currently in France.
[...]

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/04/ ... e-now.html

I don't know how this will end but leaks from both Indian and French sources are coming at an impressive rate. These "signs" should increase the probability to see the deal signed soon...

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 16:32

A Hollande-Modi press conference is scheduled at 6pm. He should arrive in France in just two hours at 4pm.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 10 Apr 2015 16:44

Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Apr 2015 17:05

shiv wrote:Speculation and masturbation are rhyming words. But both are no substitute for the real thing.

The real thing being Pontification?

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 10 Apr 2015 17:06

DexterM wrote:Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.

+ 108

This thread has met its 72
And I think so has the LCA and all the Make in India hoopla

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 10 Apr 2015 17:07

DexterM wrote:Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.

It comes to about 100-120 Mil per unit. Think thats fair enough..

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Apr 2015 17:19

DexterM wrote:Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.

We are paying for kicking the can down the road for 15+ years. The French report ^^^ about 200 a/c retiring in 2017 finally hit home. I think the IAF just did not wanted to be fobbed off with paper planes like the FGFA/PAK/FA. One wonders about the LCA but there it may simply be a total lack of confidence in HAL which of course, does not bode well for the AMCA.

Modi/Parrikar had no choice. Anywhere else AKA would have been eviscerated in the media.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 10 Apr 2015 17:20

TOI is now having a news report that GOI is negotiating to buy 40 Rafales. The contract will be conluded this year.
What next? India should now claim a first in the aviation industry and release an RFP for doing an ELU (end Life upgrade) to MIG 21's which are scheduled to be retired.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 10 Apr 2015 17:24

DexterM wrote:Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.

And here comes the famed Indic tradition of cutting off the nose to spite the face, all because of some rumors and hearsay. Besides, the consequences of such attitudes are so mild aren't they? Particularly since we are spoiled for choice with incorruptible and nationalistic parties/leaders lying left and right. Why would one want to vote for someone who doesn't do exactly what one wants eh?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Apr 2015 17:24

It seems that all tables have been booked at Maxim's,La Tour d'Argent and Fouquet's to mention a few for celebrating Mr.Modi's visit by the lucky ones!

PS:The bordellos are doing brisk bizzness too!
PPS:Vipul,what did Shiv and I say a decade+ ago,that the "best replacement for the MIG-21 was ...er,the MIG-21 itself!"

The IAF's new motto......Vive la France!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Apr 2015 17:26

Side-note...

Terrain-following autopilot capability eyed for Rafale fighters

French Air Force and Navy authorities are jointly working to develop an autopilot terrain-following capability for its single-seat Rafale fighters. The terrain-following capability, which is to undergo flight trials by the Air Force's Centre d'Expériences Aériennes Militaires, or military aircraft test center, and the French Navy's Détachement du Centre d'Expérimentations Pratiques de l'Aéronautique Navale, or Naval Aviation Flight Trials Detachment, would allow single-seat Rafales to perform fire support missions as well as intercept unidentified aircraft flying at very low altitude, even through low cloud cover.

"Integrated into the aircraft, this flight control mode allows it to fly at high speed and low level over the ground or sea, the French Air Force said. "In complete safety and under all weather conditions, the aircraft can operate at very low level by day and night thanks to its sophisticated advanced autopilot, which protects the crew by preventing the aircraft from impacting natural (terrain features) and artificial (antennas, bridges, cables, etc) obstacles. The crew is thus free to concentrate on the prosecution of its mission, on surviving in a hostile environment and on achieving its operational objectives."

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 17:36

if 7.2 billions $ is true for 63 fighter that would make around 115 M$ per copy with spare parts, suport etc...

Which is an honest price for this kind of deal and aircraft. For the record : the smaller gripen NG costs 150M$ a copy for Brazil...

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Apr 2015 17:37

Rumble in the bronx - Swamy goes bezerk.

Will take legal recourse if Narendra Modi government goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy

Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

"There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.

"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said. The statemsaid that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault. "It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 10 Apr 2015 17:41

^^^^^
Subramaniam Swamy, that very famous test pilot?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 17:41

arthuro wrote:if 7.2 billions $ is true for 63 fighter that would make around 115 M$ per copy with spare parts, suport etc...

Which is an honest price for this kind of deal and aircraft. For the record : the smaller gripen NG costs 150M$ a copy for Brazil...

I would doubt that price includes the additional engines & radars or any weapons like mica, aasm. those will be extra.
spares will be based on incidentals I suppose based on use rate and how many IAF want to stock pile(not so much as with USA product ha ha!)
support and training pkgs will again be extra. for some dassault people will have to be onsite also.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 17:44

DexterM wrote:Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.

Why is it Modis fault if the IAF is obturate? Focus your energy on messaging the MOD and getting them to drive the LCA successfully too.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Apr 2015 17:45

DexterM wrote:The $4bn also includes two or more frigates and missiles.

No it does not. Egypt signed a $6bn deal.

$4bn for 24 Rafales
$1bn for 1 FREMM frigate
$1bn for missiles

That puts the unit procurement cost for the Rafale at just under $170 mil for Egypt. With zero offsets. Even accounting for 'incentives' pushing up the cost, that's still a huge gulf with the $120 mil that we're hoping to get the aircraft for.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 17:46

shukla wrote:Rumble in the bronx - Swamy goes bezerk.

Will take legal recourse if Narendra Modi government goes ahead with Rafale deal: Subramanian Swamy

Swamy, National Executive member of the party, requested Prime Minister Narendra Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.

This is rubbish by SuSwamy TBH.

"There are two major issues with the Rafale Aircraft deal which would embarrass the BJP government. The first is that Rafale is less fuel efficient aircraft and lacking in essential performance characteristic that no country in the world has agreed to buy these aircraft," Swamy said in a statement.

This is even more rubbish. Rafale has the best range/payload performance out there amongst all western fighters.

"If the Prime Minister for some other 'compulsion' decides to go ahead with the deal, I will have no option but to approach the court in PIL to get it set aside," he said. The statemsaid that some countries have cancelled contract after signing an MoU with Dassault. "It is a fact that Dassault will go bankrupt if no country buys the Rafale and we want to oblige the French goodwill, it is better to buy Dassault itself rather than their planes as it will be more beneficial," the leader added.

France wont sell Dassault. If it does, it will be at a price unaffordable for us.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 10 Apr 2015 17:47

Are we really sure that there is a deal? or is it just rumors being spread by the media. Is someone making fool of the media? The same thing that happened with Mig crashed kind of report which they published earlier? So i think it's better to wait and watch before we jump on concluding something.
May be less of French fighters and more of Tejas to be produced. If no deal on Rafale, HAL can concentrate on Tejas and increase production to 26 which is what's exactly make in India is all about. So let's wait and watch before any agreement is announced by govt.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 17:48

heavy config of katrina....6 AASM/SDB , 4 mica, 2 meteor, 3 massive fuel tanks

my best guess would around $160 mil , but some of that will be weapons and spares which further purchases will amortize. so eventual cost will come down larger the deal later.

I am sure iaf will push for 80 more. they seem to know more about the PAKFA than we do and are not looking so hopeful unlike the su30 which they were all over it.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 10 Apr 2015 17:52

I don't see any problems with this approach. If they stick to the 63 'option' aircraft as per the original tender then the price will be the same and the onus will be on the opposition to show how NaMo sarkar took the money and they didn't when they were in power when the terms of the tender were decided.

It will also give India time to sort out FGFA, Super Su-30, and Tejas. If Dassault will still care for the 126 'main' aircraft deal remains to be seen.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 10 Apr 2015 17:52

Hope Subramaniam Swamy files his case in the same court which is hearing Salman khans hit and run case. Thataway, no harm no foul. By the time the verdict comes, IAF would have inducted all 189 Rafale's

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 17:56

https://twitter.com/livefist

Sources: Deal for 63 Rafale jets Govt-to-Govt. "MoD's view of earlier MMRCA talks was they were leading to deal that's 'totally unviable'."

Sources: Deal for 63 Rafales likely to be part of a composite agreement. MoU to be signed between PM @NarendraModi & President @FHollande.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 17:57

India, France May Seek Compromise on Rafale Fighter Purchase

PARIS -- Dassault Aviation stock was up almost 4% Friday morning on reports that New Delhi is pressing a compromise in a three-year-old deal to purchase Rafale combat jets, one that would see India spend several billion euros to purchase made-in-France fighters.

There was no specific confirmation that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi will conclude a contract during his visit to France this week.

But press reports in India and France suggest that in an effort to unblock an impasse in Rafale contract negotiations under India's Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, Modi would be willing to accept a deal for a fewer number of combat jets purchased directly from France, instead of the original agreement to buy a larger number of aircraft, most of which would be assembled in India.

Reports are inconsistent as to whether this new agreement would replace the original contract or whether the purchase of 40-60 jets would serve as a first tranche order under the original deal, which covers the purchase of 126 Rafale jets, 108 of which are to be built in India.

Dassault and its Indian counterparts have been struggling not only over the financial value of the MMRCA deal and the unprecedented level of technology transfer involved, but who would carry responsibility for the quality of the work done in India -- Dassault or its Indian partner, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).
Modi and French President Francois Hollande have scheduled a press conference for 6 p.m. local time today. Modi is also scheduled to visit Toulouse, France's aerospace hub, on April 11, where he will tour both the French space agency and Airbus Group facilities.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/india-f ... r-purchase

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 10 Apr 2015 18:17

There should be two news today around 9 pm

1. 63 rafale jet ordered via Govt. to Govt. agreement.
2. IAF ordered 63 LCA mk1 from HAL.

A person can dream !!!!!

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 10 Apr 2015 18:20

To explain my opposition to the current price:
Per the original terms that Dassault bid, the price was supposed to be $12bn for 126 inc TOT and spares.
That works out to roughly $160mn/aircraft.

So $6bn for 63 without TOT or the additional man hours that Dassault talks about itself is steep. Remember this is from three years ago. 50% escalation from then is honestly unbelievable!
No disrespect for the platform itself. We sorely need better capability.
Just some amount of mockery of the manufacturers and the negotiators from our side (folks who were supposed to be yindoochankyanonlee). So much for all those attributes we wanted to impose on the folks in this decision.

Tushar_M: The second one will not come about easily. Not now, not for another three years. Not if we're still talking of the same folks/air force.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 18:25

Dexter, that's the issue. A nationalist Govt cant armtwist the AF. Whereas the AF has a fait accompli. 10 Sq out of service in the 2017 onwards timeframe. Yes, the manner in which the IAF has behaved viz the LCA is shameful. But that's water under the bridge and even ordering more LCAs cant make up for the MMRCA. Only more Su-30s will do. And that's being overreliant on Russia.. so round and round we go.