Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Apr 2015 20:28

arthuro, that is enough. Karan M, desist.

There is already one admin warning in red above.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 10 Apr 2015 20:35

So selling civilian stuff to China (the second largest economy) should be forbiden "dude" ? This should be an excuse for Russia to sell directly its best military technology ? You know China can also purchase american helicopters and swap engines...That's my last post on this topic.

Another report on Modi's visit :

http://www.20minutes.fr/monde/1583875-2 ... acheter-63

French president basically hints that something could be signed in an answer to a journalist:

«La France est capable de vendre des produits exceptionnels, j'espère que ce sera le cas aujourd'hui avec le Premier ministre indien»,

"I hope it will be possible today with Indian prime minister"

I'll keep you informed.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Apr 2015 20:48

arthuro wrote: I'll keep you informed.

Not for the next one week. See you around in a week

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 20:53

Thanks hnair.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 10 Apr 2015 21:06

Cain Marko wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:<br abp="800"><br abp="801">One thing remains constant: the jerks have us on our knees.

Well, I've got to say although this is no doubt against the tide here at BR, that I would be quite pleased if this deal goes through. For a number of reasons, least of which is the damn circus would be over. But frankly, I feel that in one deft move, Modi has saved the day.

On our knees!! That's a good one.

But seriously, the only reasons this deal will make sense is if:

1. Because it is a government to government contract, it is tied to a larger commercial package which also includes Areva reactors for the proposed Jaitalpur power plant such that the overall pricing is negotiated for both, with the French Government offsetting any pricing variations between the two.

2. GOI feels that the Rafale will offer ultimately much more cutomization and flexibility in mounting non French missiles, pods and other gear compared to the other MMRCA competitors especially the Typhoon and lower/zero intrusion in end usage during war times.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 10 Apr 2015 21:21

Karan M wrote:
DexterM wrote:Apologies to the Admins for the political angle to this:
I don't know about the average Joe out there, but I campaigned for the BJP and worked hard during the elections.
Doesn't matter how they arrived at the number, but if Modi and Parrikar buckle and agree to the $6-7bn price, they lose my support. We need them, but not at the cost of the family silver.
Why is it Modis fault if the IAF is obturate? Focus your energy on messaging the MOD and getting them to drive the LCA successfully too.

Don't drag IAF into this, if govt doesn't want to buy, no one can force them. It is not a child's game to spend billions of dollars for next several decades. If the govt wants do some bravado photo op by announcing the unthinkable to exercise the follow on clause even before the main agreement is signed, then it is the modi led govt at fault and no one else..

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Apr 2015 21:25

Karan M wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:^Ya, the guy is useful sometimes, but basically a loose cannon. To think that there are people here who were wondering why he wasn't made a minister. Just goes to show the shallow kind of nationalism that turns at the drop of the had to despair and revenge mongering.
SG & family has become his primary focus. Unfortunately, the IAF needs the Rafale and he believes the INC has /tried to make money off of it and SSwamy can't seem to let it slide..
He does have a point in that things shouldn't have got to this state.

Knowing Swamy's public pronouncements, there may be something to it. He is a loose cannon, but so far his court visits haven't seen him be on the losing side. Let's see.

<CT hat on>Maybe this a hedge to cover the GoI's flank in case the INC's hidden IEDs explode after announcing an agreement. With Swamy stating this publicly before the announcement, the govt can convey it is not caught unawares and has enough justification to launch a new CBI investigation and go after whoever he is alleging was involved.

At the same time, GoI could do a straight G2G deal with anyone (they have the executive authority) and are backed by the IAF's solid technical evaluation that was much tom-tommed by the UPA itself, and address a crucial shortfall in IAF. The IAF will anyway back the govt to the hilt, as they are getting something they desperately needed. That the NDA had little wiggle room, thanks to this alleged corruption, is another issue laid at the UPA's door. <hat off>

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 21:31

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 46s47 seconds ago

#Rafale French President Francois Hollande says he is leaving it to PM Modi to deliberate upon the fighter jet. @Oneindia

What does that mean hanji?

rohankumaon · Post by **rohankumaon** » 10 Apr 2015 21:32

TOI reporting that the Rafale deal is gone through..

"India, France have agreed to outright purchase of Rafale fighter jets, PM Modi to make an announcement soon"

Will · Post by **Will** » 10 Apr 2015 21:37

Well... Germany up next. What will we do to satisfy them and keep them happy.... maybe a few sqns of Eurofighters to.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Apr 2015 21:37

arthuro wrote:Impressive technology sold to China Karan M which must be worth a SU35 or an S400 battery in your flawed logic. This is not sanctionned by EU embargo despite Japan complaint. France is not selling China any military hardware and is not involved in a major selling campain is Pakistan unlike Russia and US. End of the debate and back to MRCA news !

I think we all know that if France had its way the PLAAF would be operating the Rafale today. Fortunately for the us, the US has been applying brakes and stopping France from ripping up the EU embargo.

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 10 Apr 2015 21:38

At the very least we could have negotiated a deal to sell France pharma / textiles and any other products we are competitive in for equivalent value - at least try to create some jobs back home instead of only in France

And what's this nonsense about crying to the Frenchies about Paki perfidy in releasing Lakhvi
I thought the RnD was reserved for Uncle , seems like MEA will cry on anyone who wd lend their shoulders - and worse of all - the Frenchies wouldn't even " condemn " the Pakis in their statement !!

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Apr 2015 21:39

Per Modi, India to buy 36 Rafale jets outright. Not sure if agreement is signed. I think this will go thru. Good work France!!!

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2015 21:39

Again, why add just 3 squadron's of yet another completely different type? We have 3 sq of M2k's, 3 of Mig-29's, now we'll have 3 of rafale's and 2 of Tejas Mk1's in the near future. It is already a logistical nightmare and this is going to compound it.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2015 21:39

Oh wait, so NDTV reported 36 as 63?

This is now just 2 sq. with no reserves.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 21:41

Reuters India ‏@ReutersIndia 1m1 minute ago

India to buy 36 Rafale jets from France - PM Modi #modiinfrance

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Apr 2015 21:42

^^ What's with the number 36? A squadron is 21 planes, as posted in an earlier page. How will 36 work?

[Added later] 2 sqds of 18 each with none for trainer, spare, servicing?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Apr 2015 21:42

ldev wrote:2. GOI feels that the Rafale will offer ultimately much more cutomization and flexibility in mounting non French missiles, pods and other gear compared to the other MMRCA competitors especially the Typhoon and lower/zero intrusion in end usage during war times.

That way the Eurofighter will offer far more flexibility by virtue of operating a far wider selection of munitions and pods. The Litening III is already integrated, ASRAAM & IRIS-T are operational, the Storm Shadow & Taurus currently in the process and the Germans will eventually add the HARM to the mix (as and when it replaces the Tornado ECR).

Just as importantly, there are about 55 retiring Eurofighter T1s that we could get for a song, if we made a play for them.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2015 21:43

arshyam wrote:^^ What's with the number 36? A squadron is 21 planes, as posted in an earlier page. How will 36 work?

21 isn't compulsory. 16 single-seaters + 2 twin-seaters can also do. I thought that was the case for at least some of the squadrons.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 21:43

18 x 2 = 36

IITC the original deal was 18 + 108 = 126

That 18 is now 36. What happened to the rest?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Apr 2015 21:43

^^ Thanks nachiket-ji, good to know.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 21:45

I watched namo speech live on ndtv.it is still on.

36 is the number.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2015 21:45

From 126 to 36, the reality of dekho-no-money has brought us back down to earth. I sincerely hope we didn't do this just to keep the french happy. Although I don't know what else it could be because these 2 piddly squadrons make absolutely no sense for the IAF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 21:46

EF might have more of a zoo of weapons but all foreign
Key issue is Astra Desi gliding pgm and brahmos-a

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 10 Apr 2015 21:48

WTF of the highest order !! Is this to set the ball rolling while they negotiate for the rest ?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 21:50

36 at what cost and is that end of Rafale or are there more to come? What about offset in case 36 is the final number?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 21:51

Jaitapur areva deal sgned

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2015 21:51

Singha wrote:Jaitapur areva deal sgned

The Shiv Sena is going to go ape****.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 21:53

Hell................oooooooooooo.........ooo

EconomicTimes ‏@EconomicTimes 59s59 seconds ago

India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 10 Apr 2015 21:54

More fighters will be ordered either Su30mki or LCA. Choice is up to IAF .

Govt. will not buy fancy high price toys now.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 10 Apr 2015 21:56

India buying 36 instead of 18 fly by wire condition. There is no news in conference about rest. So don't speculate that India is just buying 36 instead of 126.

-Ankit

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Apr 2015 21:57

pankajs wrote:Hell................oooooooooooo.........ooo
EconomicTimes ‏@EconomicTimes 59s59 seconds ago

India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)

If this is true, we just shot ourselves int he foot. Now that we are committed to buying 36, it puts more pressure on us to sign the other deal as well instead of scrapping it in lieu of more LCA's or MKI's which we can actually afford.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 10 Apr 2015 21:57

Sign of things to come with France/Rafale ?

"36" ka aakda ..

Such an anti climax after all the speculation/excitement ..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Apr 2015 21:58

Question is what price for 36?, what is the delivery schedule. What next after 36- aare we going to make more orders in piecemeal.

Are you ever going to order more LCA MK1 and add a production line. IAF afterall will be retiring 100's of MIg 21's, Mig-27's and haas not replaaced the retired Mig 21 M/MF/F, Mig 23's and Mig 27's.

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 10 Apr 2015 21:59

I have serious concerns about the manner in which the whole deal has been sprung on the nation

Why this cloak and dagger kind of secrecy ? Any decision taken should be defendable to the nation at large ! This seems like a fait accompli and the government has behaved as if it has take a decision it cannot defend !! Otherwise they could have made the announcement in advance and taken note of the reaction.

And why should there be big ticket announcement ( always we will do the buying ) during visits. This is the worst kind of negotiating behaviour ( and the best for the seller )

Every nation seems to have us by the testimonials. When they come to India , they sell to us. When we visit them , we do the buying. And 36 of these birds will magically restore falling squadron nos - unless this is just a preview for an even bigger drama.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Apr 2015 22:00

[MODERATOR NOTE]

Enough of this France versus Russia business. Arthuro, mind your language. You're on thin ice here. No more transgression.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 22:09

pankajs wrote:Hell................oooooooooooo.........ooo
EconomicTimes ‏@EconomicTimes 59s59 seconds ago

India’s purchase of 36 Rafale jets is separate from ongoing talks on bigger order - defence official (Reuters India)

I think this means one of three things.
1. The other deal will continue to be negotiated while this stop gap arrangement meets the immediate need.
2. The scraping of the other deal is a mere formality but couldn't be announced on this day or visit for obvious reasons.
3. Speculative reporting. The other details are not yet known.

sarkar · Post by **sarkar** » 10 Apr 2015 22:09

I felt an excitement when mmrca winners were announced few years ago. Today can't feel a thing. What was this mmrca all about? We lost on rising cost and time, but another fallout of mmrca was that, it exposed the incompetency level of our institutions, which are incapable of absorbing foreign TOT, let alone reverse engineer it.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Apr 2015 22:10

lots of quid pro quo guys ..when some thing doesn't add up , remember you don't have all the information you need to pass a judgement .. period !! but soon we ll know ..

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Apr 2015 22:13

Much as I hate to say it, this may be a good hedge. The Rafale deal had blocked all of the IAF's acquisitions (apache, chinook, MRTT, etc). And I think GoI knows that there is no way the MMRCA would go further. And probably the IAF put its foot down on increased LCA orders till it meets FOC.

By going for 36 airplanes, they have kicked the bigger MMRCA negotiation to the future - hopefully to be finally buried. They have also opened the tap and freed the budget for other acquisitions. The IAF also will be silenced - GoI will claim to have done this to arrest the falling squadron numbers. Only entity that would be p*ssed off would be HAL, but they will be promised additional LCA orders.

Only way I can make sense out this.