Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2015 02:55

Rakesh, grapes are sour in full flow!!

Image

Gent in question can't even admit the Eurocanards are much much ahead of the flying bricks in terms of sophistication !! :lol:

To add to your point, "The fact that the Eurocanards actually beat the legacy American fighters is a hard pill for some to swallow. Egos have been bruised quite badly. Either Eurocanard will run circles around the F-16 and F-18 in a close in dogfight. That will likely never happen with AMRAAMs, AWACS and other advanced air surveillance systems that always give the U.S. Air Force the upper hand."

To add, the Eurocanards both beat the flying bricks across the spectrum - including high speed and transonic regimes. They maneuver better at speed, can manage their energy far better (making them better at BVR) and have sensor fusion as standard (the F/A-18 E/F is only getting it now), the Viper doesn't have it. And their upgrade potential is far better (the flying bricks are maxing out already in terms of adding stuff without compromising their already compromised aero performance). Both Euro fighters have IRST on offer as well. For the F/A-18, they'd have to put it on a gas tank - no kidding!! :rotfl:

A more holistic evaluation that grades overall combat performance rather than a series of arbitrary metrics would have been a smarter course.


Speaketh the hot air ball.... errr.. combat pilot with hundreds of flight hours in combat fighters under his belt to decide what metrics matter. :rotfl:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 20 May 2015 03:26

Largely agree on most of the points regarding the dated version of the F-16 and F-18 (though the latter is still extremely competitive due to its cost) but a correction on the IRST bit - The USN has chosen to have an IRST integrated on a fuel tank because they do not plan on acquiring the system for every F-18E/F. The Export customer (just as the USN) has a choice of an integrated IRST which would be a relatively simple thing to do.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2015 03:33

Fair enough. That'd come under another "would be" as the proposed higher thrust engine for the F-18 though. Not funded but theoretically possible. That or the time/complexity aspect might have been grounds for it being disqualified under the same yardstick as applied to the Gripen for some of its more ambitious claims in the MMRCA. They pretty much took what was funded (ie IAF wouldnt pay for it) and on the implementation plan already provided it was not too risky/ambitious. In the IRST case, it would be doable but who'd pay for it would be the question.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 20 May 2015 03:40

While the Engine enhancements are something that will likely cost hundreds of millions if not more (and therefore have to come from the primary user in the USN) integrating the IRST is something that is relatively straight forward and not going to be anything extra over and above the cost of the sensor and the weapons system. The only advantage the F-18E/F has in today's time is that of COST. As the Kuwait FMS deal will show it is going to be considerably cheaper than the Rafale which is a thorough 4.5 generation aircraft as opposed to a 4th generation airframe with modern electronics and sub-systems (like the F-18E/F/I or F16 block60/61). The F-16 has absolutely no advantage in my mind for any potential customer..while the F-18E/F will get significant upgrade and support from the USN in the 2020s the F-16 is likely to get very little other than buying stuff such as AESA's that have already been developed (SABR).

Companies need to compete because that is a thing they have to do..Unless there is a geopolitical, interoperability (such as with Singapore or South Korea) or a requirement concern (heavy strike from the Beagle as an example) there is really no need other than cost to pick the Shornet over the Rafale or the Phoon. The market will reflect that..F-18E/F has a chance in either a price sensitive market, or where the US holds a strong strategic partnership. Another market for the Shornet is for those air-forces that are looking at a stop gap before transitioning into full fledged 5th generation capability or those that are looking at a high_low 4th and 5th generation capability. For all others, the rafale is way way better if price is not a concern.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2015 03:46

Yes, it may end up not costing much but if IAF was asked to fund it, then it was probably not be part of the IAF downselect criteria.. anyways a moot point.
The basic issue, the elephant in the room, is that of the US's political unreliability when it comes to supporting combat platforms like fighter aircraft for India (which we pay full money for), while freebies and all sorts of aid goes to Pakistan. That alone in all likelihood would have made the IAF wary of buying the the teen fighters even if had not been outclassed.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 20 May 2015 03:49

And thats the point. No one is buying a brand new shiny automobile. Expect large strategic defense purchases to have a strategic and political component to it and their is a legitimate reason for them to exist. The IAF simply does not trust the US when it comes to front line combat aircraft. That trust would require a long relationship of positive dealings coupled with strategic comfort that may never happen. On the other hand France has given little reason (other than cost) to be disappointed.

This would have happened even if the F-18 and F-16 were the best performing of the lot (which they aren't)...and that would be a fairly reasonable thing to do even then

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 20 May 2015 09:39

Rafale fighters to escape India import duties

NEW DELHI --- There will be no tax on jet fighter aircraft Rafale when it flies into India. “Since, it is government-to-government (G2G) deal, it will not attract any duty (basic custom duty, special additional duty SAD or counter veiling duty CVD)” a senior Finance Ministry official told Business Line.

India and France are expected to sign an Inter Government Agreement soon for this deal, which is estimated to be worth over $6 billion.

The new Finance Act 2015 has withdrawn duty exemption to certain defence imports but also made clear that direct imports by the Centre and State Governments will continue to be exempted from Basic Custom Duty (BCD), Special Additional Duty (SAD) and Counter Veiling Duty (CVD).

“Had it been a deal between public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and French Company Dassault Aviation, the import would have attracted duties,” the official said.
..

Finance Minister Arun Jaitley in his reply on the Finance Bill had announced withdrawal of the excise duty exemption currently available to the Defence PSUs and Ordnance Factory Boards, besides the exemption from CVD, and SAD in certain cases.

This has been done to provide a level playing field to domestic manufacturers in the private sector vis-à-vis Defence Public Sector Undertakings and Ordnance Factory Boards and imports.

This meant such imports will attract SAD at the rate of 4 per cent and CVD at the rate of 12 per cent. However, basic custom duty will be not be levied. The new regime will come in to effect from June 1.

“All these exercises are to encourage Make-in-India efforts,” the official said.


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby maitya » 20 May 2015 11:42

brar_w wrote:And thats the point. No one is buying a brand new shiny automobile. Expect large strategic defense purchases to have a strategic and political component to it and their is a legitimate reason for them to exist. The IAF simply does not trust the US when it comes to front line combat aircraft. That trust would require a long relationship of positive dealings coupled with strategic comfort that may never happen. On the other hand France has given little reason (other than cost) to be disappointed.

This would have happened even if the F-18 and F-16 were the best performing of the lot (which they aren't)...and that would be a fairly reasonable thing to do even then

[OT_For this thread]
brar_w, exactly!!

Also pls note that there exists a decent space for non-Ruski flying platforms in the Indian strategic thoughts ... who takes that space is the only question.

The other question, of course is, how big that space is ... it's not too big, for sure, say max 200-250 odd platforms (or approx 30% of the interceptor/interdictor/mud-mover inventory, that IAF wants). Actually, hadn't the Ruskies shoot themselves in their foot, with Cryo/29s/Groshkov/and legacy 21-23-27 support-aspects as well, this space would have been atleast 10% smaller than what is today. So this space has the potential to grow another 10 odd percent points.

But all that is moot from American aero-manufacturing pov, due to the strategic nature of institutional anti-trust that has been developed over decades - so French and other European entities are having a virtual free-run wrt fulfilling this demand - but are hobbled on the pricing aspect.

So, purely from an American aero-manufacturer pov, what are the next steps ... the first and foremost is to somehow undo (as much as possible) institutional anti-trust - pls do note that this runs so deep, that I doubt it will ever become 0. So it can only be minimized but can't be eliminated.

1. And the first step towards that is to aim for non-strategic pieces of IAF - aka the Transport platforms and be also a reliable sensor-integration-partner (not a supplier).

C-19s and 130Js are the step in that direction ... but IMO still US has not done enough, in terms of pricing, to demonstrate its eagerness towards harnessing it. Because once in, it's almost a free-run ... even a rudimentary level (compared to what is routine in US or in their supply-nations) of after-sales and warranty support would wean IAF away, as Ruskies et all has been/and are still so pathetic in this area.
But, even then, if you look at these deals, you will find lack of seriousness in the pricing front, to make that penetration complete.


2. The other aspect is avionics and sub-systems (I'll touch on it in a separate post) - but before that, one important point that is still unexplored which would help build that trust.

Get into a partnership mode in setting up manufacturing-lines for indigenous platforms ... this is nascent industry, and there will be always a first mover advantage.
Throw-in (call it sunk investment) a JV with HAL (private companies simply doesn't have the expertise to provide any short-term gains via the JV route) and get into the business of setting up the 2nd manufacturing line for LCA.
What does these companies get to loose ... some autoclaves, a few manufacturing tooling kits etc ... max say $300-400mil investment (even there, I'm sure if a manufacturing line is being setup for F35 and already well-established-and-baselined manufacturing lines for 4-Gen platforms like 16/18s are existing, how difficult is to "divert" manufacturing machinery that will match with that of LCA).

Towards this, 49% is there available for grabs ... so, a consortium of companies covering 12% each for 4 aspects (Airframe, Sub-systems, Integration, Avionics) with HAL for setting-up of the 2nd manufacturing is perfectly doable.
I mean a consortium with max exposure of Boeing/LM - 24% max, GD/GA/assorted companies - 12% and NG (maybe along with IAI) on avionics - 6%+6%, is not that difficult to sew up with HAL.
Plus these levels are all Peanuts for each of these entities, compared to their investments (both committed and forecasted).

Upside is, if it works, hey you are there in IAF mind-space for approx 200 odd platforms.

3a) The other is strategic-system are the turbofans - you are already the chosen supplier, why not take it another level by guaranteeing a little higher-level of screw-driver-giri to HAL for F414s etc and also, at the same time, partnering the core-development initiative with GTRE.

Again how much is there to lose ... a bunch of Vacuum Investment Furnaces, a few autoclaves for turbine-blade-core fabrication, a few LFW machines etc etc etc. So why not set up a deep component-level-manufacturing-cum-assembly-cum-testing JV with HAL ... as long as the vanes and rotors for the Turbines and also that (disks and blades) of the HPC are getting manufactured at a low-labour-cost-centre in India, profit magins will go up slightly as well.
Yes there's an initial capital cost of having to export the corresponding tooling etc - but hey, that's exactly how build up accetance adn become the default-supplier, isn't it?


3b) With GTRE, well they are desperate for a twin-engined flying platform which supports engine-dimensional-aspects of a F404/F414 - IAF couldn't care more for such "science projects"!!
So, how difficult is to arrange for/get some F-18 A/Bs (2 would be sufficient) and "loan" it to GTRE (as an offset for F414 deal or something) - imagine the +ve perception that you build with such arrangements.
India is more-or-less a dharmic country - "praishchit" sells here (wrt the "paap" of impounding of Flight Control Computers in 1999)!!

And the difficult aspect of "partnering" with GTRE, what they are looking at contemporary mass-level manufacturing tech for the HPC stages and HPT stages as well ... aka offer
1. Manufacturing process improvement for the existing technologies (e.g. Wide Chord blades, Ti-blisks for initial HPC stages, CFC Fanstages, LFW, EBM etc.)
2. Co-development of manufacturing tech for Al-Ti components for HPC stages
3. Co-development of CMC based HoT section rotors,
If you have noticed, none of the tech mentioned here, none of them are not in near-mature stage (as opposed in R&D or just entering production phases) in US - so are on the verge of being classified as "non-strategic" wrt US's internal technology levels.

So it's not a big deal anyway!!

.... and so and so forth!!
[/OT_For this thread]

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 22 May 2015 18:29


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 22 May 2015 19:05

Indian defence minister draws line at 36 Rafales


India will neither licence-build additional Dassault Rafale fighters nor acquire more than the 36 it recently agreed to buy in flyaway condition, the country's Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on 21 May.
In multiple interviews to TV channels to mark the completion of the government's first year in office, Parrikar said the money India had saved by acquiring 90 fewer Rafales would be diverted to buying 200-odd indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
"By buying 36 Rafales instead of 126, I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales," Parrikar said, adding that this amount was around INR900 billion (USD15.51 billion). "We will use this money to buy Tejas LCA priced at around INR1.5 billion each," he added.
The LCA will replace 10 to 12 MiG-21 and MiG-27 squadrons to be retired from 2022 onwards, he said.
Parrikar declined to reveal the cost of the 36 Rafales, whose purchase Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris on 10 April and which are presently the subject of negotiations. He did, however, confirm that the contract includes a 50% offset obligation.
India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) had been in negotiations with Dassault since 2012 to acquire 126 Rafales in support of the Indian Air Force (IAF) requirement for medium multirole combat aircraft.
Of these, 18 were to have been bought off the shelf and 108 licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore.
Meanwhile, preliminary investigations indicate engine problems could have resulted in an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighter crashing in Assam state on 19 May, official sources said. The crash was the sixth such incident involving an IAF Su-30 since the aircraft entered Indian service in 1997.
A court of inquiry into the accident is under way. Both pilots ejected safely from the fighter, which was on a routine sortie from Tezpur's Salonibari base but developed "technical problems" shortly after taking off, sources said.
In March Parrikar told parliament that the Su-30 fleet was plagued by "engine failure in air and engine-related problems" and that the IAF had documented 35 problems with the Saturn Al-31Fp powerpack.
Russian officials, however, deny such problems and attribute all six of the IAF's Su-30 accidents to "human error": an assessment with which the IAF strongly disagrees.
The IAF has inducted around 200 of 272 Su-30s acquired for more than USD12 billion.

Comments

Parrikar's forceful and repeated declarations that India will buy just 36 Rafales has ended widespread speculation in the IAF and industrial circles about the possibility of obtaining more.
However, serving and retired IAF officers have criticised the government for severely curtailing this number.
"Inducting only 36 Rafales would operationally and doctrinally constrain the IAF in their meaningful deployment," military analyst Air Marshal V K Bhatia (retd) said, adding that such limited numbers would also present the IAF with logistics, maintenance, and financial problems.




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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2015 19:25

"Inducting only 36 Rafales would operationally and doctrinally constrain the IAF in their meaningful deployment," military analyst Air Marshal V K Bhatia (retd) said, adding that such limited numbers would also present the IAF with logistics, maintenance, and financial problems.
...

LOL, better than the financial problems India would have had, giving the IAF their gold plated uber-premium fighters while they looked down on the local LCA.

If this is implemented, looks like this is a much needed wake up call for our Air Marshals and what not, who think India should just give them a blank check on whatever they want to buy from abroad while they do diddly to support local industrial programs while blowing up valuable Indian forex by the bucketload.

India should buy a few more Rafales but not before the IAF starts taking the LCA and other programs seriously.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RamaY » 22 May 2015 19:33

koti wrote:Wow.

Is this posted before?

http://www.janes.com/article/51616/indi ... 36-rafales


Thank you :D
- India's defence minister has said Delhi will not buy more than the 36 Dassault Rafales to which it committed in April
- The announcement confirms the end of the MMRCA tender and the government's commitment to the Tejas LCA programme


India will neither licence-build additional Dassault Rafale fighters nor acquire more than the 36 it recently agreed to buy in flyaway condition, the country's Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on 21 May.
Last edited by RamaY on 22 May 2015 20:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 22 May 2015 19:54

Gripen lobby is probably having collective heart-attack. Let's wait for the hit jobs now.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 22 May 2015 20:01

Looks terrific. I can't stop wondering how many more Rafale's could have been acquired if the money spent on the Mirage upgrade is added to this tally.
Not that it was a waste of money in any way but just from a newer platform perspective.

This also means that FGFA will have a more comfortable induction.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2015 20:50

Srin wrote:Gripen lobby is probably having collective heart-attack. Let's wait for the hit jobs now.


Yup. Expect the hit jobs on LCA by Vayu, Rajat Pandit/Pubby, NDTV in favor of the Gripen to increase.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2015 20:57

Major push by usual suspects will start on cheap Gripen now required by IAF to build up numbers, LCA delayed, took 30 years, CAG report, does not have this, that.

Folks like Fadnavis may be roped in to push for Gripen factory in Maharashtra etc. With fake sops to assist LCA (yeah right).

Hope Parrikar remains firm and shoots down such kiteflying.

The money saved on Rafale MUST go into LCA and accelerate that and the AMCA, improve Su-30 serviceability and boost PGM stocks. This can potentially revolutionize Indian aerospace by doing things that matter. The IAF has to learn to live within Indian means and innovate. Easy imports at the cost of the taxpayer only benefit dalals and should be ended.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2015 21:03

koti wrote:Looks terrific. I can't stop wondering how many more Rafale's could have been acquired if the money spent on the Mirage upgrade is added to this tally.
Not that it was a waste of money in any way but just from a newer platform perspective.

This also means that FGFA will have a more comfortable induction.


IAF will now probably base the Mirages and Rafales together at Gwalior AFB to ease logistics. 49 upgraded Mirage 2000s + 36 Rafales will definitely pack a punch.

But all said & done, the MOD must now focus on boosting Su-30% serviceability to 80%+ and accelerate the LCA. These will make up for any shortfall in Rafale numbers.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RamaY » 22 May 2015 21:03

I have a feeling, suddenly GTRE Kaveri achieves its target parameters in next year or so. This is my prediction!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 22 May 2015 21:06

If a grip en factory can come up in maharashtra. Why not a LCA factory.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby chaanakya » 22 May 2015 22:05

Looks like NaMo wanted to get rid of rafale tender fiasco created by Tainted Saint and the MOD functioning under the current CAG (then RS) as terms and conditions did not suit Make in India programme and committed way too much money for too little . Dassault wanted to rope in MuKAm and not guaranteeing HAL production etc. Hence he has offered to buy 36 if it fits under G2G purchase and if T&C are suitable. Meaning it is not sure and unless properly negotiated and agreed upon these 36 would also be in doubt. While NaMo was in Paris, Parikkar announced death of MMRCA tender in India. Leaving Dassault no choice. Now it seems RM and NaMo is putting their collectives behind LCA. I am sure Kaveri is not far behind. Gripen can have day dreams. Also it seems NaMo has decided that for ten years no WAR but prepare for it slowly and inexorably. Bakis can be taught lessons anytime but China needs to be kept on even keel.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby JTull » 22 May 2015 22:16

Excellent! Time to get rid of this thread!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RoyG » 22 May 2015 22:27

JTull wrote:Excellent! Time to get rid of this thread!


I agree. It will put all this gripen fear mongering to rest as well from the usual suspects. Thank you Parrikar.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 22 May 2015 22:29

Not a good decision to cap it to 36 ....would lead to expensive fighter to maintain and procure.

If they really wanted to support tejas then why buy those 36 at all just invest all money in Tejas program.

They should buy 5-6 squadron and build MRO and local production facility in India

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 22 May 2015 22:32

India does not have 30 billion for that

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 22 May 2015 22:35

Whats the point of investing in just 36 Rafale its Mirage-2000 redux.

They should have just gone for 2 more Su-30 squadron and invested most money on Tejas program

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 May 2015 22:45

chaanakya wrote:....Hence he has offered to buy 36 if it fits under G2G purchase and if T&C are suitable. Meaning it is not sure and unless properly negotiated and agreed upon these 36 would also be in doubt. ....


Exactly and also that more than 36 are possible if the T&Cs are right, with a partner of Dassault's choice.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 22 May 2015 23:25

If it is indeed only 36 Rafales, then please get them all as two seaters. For the love of Jupiter please! Way more useful. Also have a complete overhaul facility in India if possible. May be wishful thinking on my part!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 22 May 2015 23:37

I think we have to look at this from a different angle.

IAF has its valid reasons to get this bird. The Govt on the other hand has to balance the allocation of funds and local infra development. This looks like more of a decision to appease the IAF addressing their immediate concerns while buying enough time for LCA 2 and FGFA to make a comfortable entry.

And i think another squadron will make Rafales on par with the fulcrums(a bit) and Mirages.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby koti » 22 May 2015 23:39

Rakesh wrote:If it is indeed only 36 Rafales, then please get them all as two seaters. For the love of Jupiter please! Way more useful. Also have a complete overhaul facility in India if possible. May be wishful thinking on my part!


Why is that saab? I thought this would've increase the operational cost of the flying birds.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 May 2015 23:41

Who said even these 36 are a done deal? At the very best they are 50-50. I very much doubt that is even a decent bet.

Even Dassault is hedging. With the previous gov, Dassault knew every card the GoI held. Now GoI has two decks (LCA being the other) and the Rafale deck is hidden (if it exists).

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 22 May 2015 23:51

If they really wanted to support tejas then why buy those 36 at all just invest all money in Tejas program


THE focus is on the "LCA". No two ways about that.

It is up to - BOTH - Dassault and the IAF to make that happen.

IAF has a Plan A ............ the "LCA". Plan B may be 36 Rafale. May be.

Dassault needs to stop playing games (price hijacking, Ambani, HAL/ADA dance, etc) and provide cost effective planes for the duration of their lives + 30/50% proper reinvestment.

BTW, no body knows how to spell MMRCA anymore. Hard as they may try.

Ball is in Dassault's court. And the IAF has one choice - that they cannot refuse.







At the moment, I do not think these 36 Rafale are coming. At all.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RamaY » 22 May 2015 23:56

Thinking outta the box...

36 Rafales are nothing but 2016 and 17 quota of LCAs onlee - bought off the shelf.
Remaining LCAs are Made In India - Starting 2018.

Now don't kill me with comparison between LCA and Rafales. They all are meant to be (first half of) 21st century Mig-21s.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2015 00:04

RamaY wrote:I have a feeling, suddenly GTRE Kaveri achieves its target parameters in next year or so. This is my prediction!


Bridge too far I am afraid.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby krish.pf » 23 May 2015 02:14

Austin wrote:Not a good decision to cap it to 36 ....would lead to expensive fighter to maintain and procure.

If they really wanted to support tejas then why buy those 36 at all just invest all money in Tejas program.

They should buy 5-6 squadron and build MRO and local production facility in India


The most normal reaction from a dumb-ass decision as this, viewed without Modi glasses on. I thought there might never be a thought like this.

For a moment I thought Modi trumps logic, I'm glad that isn't the case here although its a minority.

What a fiasco!!! All Indian political parties are devoid of strategic planning. Dumb-asses!!!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby SaiK » 23 May 2015 02:51

It feels like 'bridge over river kwai'

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 23 May 2015 04:09

Its a dreadful decision but only if it goes through. Keep in mind, no contract has been signed yet. They're still 'preparing to start' negotiations. This could well be the MoD's way of breaking bad news slowly to France. First from 126 to 36. When that has finally sunk in, we can drop the 36 aircraft order and then sign a deal for MRTTs and/or follow-on Scorpenes to keep the French content.

The price for these aircraft is slowly coming through as well and its a staggering sum, which will give the MoD an additional excuse to can it. You can also bet there are at least a few folk in the IAF who, having seen their MMRCA hopes melt away, would be wondering if the 2 squadron poisoned chalice should be avoided as well, in light of the all logistical headaches its bound to create.

There are other bad acquisitions as well that the MoD has greenlighted like the Ka-226 and Apache buys. But until the contracts are signed don't lose faith in the new board. Not yet at least.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 23 May 2015 04:57

NRao wrote:Who said even these 36 are a done deal? At the very best they are 50-50. I very much doubt that is even a decent bet.

Even Dassault is hedging. With the previous gov, Dassault knew every card the GoI held. Now GoI has two decks (LCA being the other) and the Rafale deck is hidden (if it exists).


Exactly.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 May 2015 07:24

NRao wrote:At the moment, I do not think these 36 Rafale are coming. At all.

Why must you be so pessimistic? :) If Katrina arrives, I will distribute mithai equal to her weight. I can afford it...the last one was just financially unfeasible like the UPA's proposal for a Mountain Strike Corps. I could not find the money. Now that the weight has come down, so will the cost. By the way, when I say mithai equal to her weight...I mean the actress, not the Rafale :D

Viv S wrote:Its a dreadful decision but only if it goes through.

Will you give that same opinion if the IAF went in for the Typhoon?

koti wrote:Why is that saab? I thought this would've increase the operational cost of the flying birds.

Two seaters have some inherent advantages vs a single seater. It also has its disadvantages as well, like reduced internal fuel capacity which can be mitigated by inflight refueling. A couple that come to mind are;

1) Share the workload. Granted aircraft practically fly themselves these days, but a 21st century combat pilot has a lot more to oversee and manage than his predecessors. Just like the Rambha, front pilot flies and the rear pilot is the weapons systems operator. The operational flexibility you get from this will translate into some serious capability.

2) Spatial disorientation. Can we really afford to take the risk of sending a $125+ million fighter up in the air with just one pilot and then lose it to SD or something similar. I am sure Rambha pilots can attest to the episodes when they saved their fellow pilot's skin (or vice versa) up in the air.

http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/rafale.htm

The Dassault Rafale is a relatively small airplane (it does not need folding wings to fit on a carrier) that carries a very heavy load. The Rafale has an operating empty weight of around 22,000 pounds and was initially designed with a maximum take-off weight of 49,600 pounds. That figure has now been increased to 54,000 pounds, and Dassault is preparing a further jump to 60,000 pounds. Without fuel or weapons, a Rafale weighs some 3,000 pounds more than a F-16C, but it can take off 10,000 pounds heavier. This allows the Rafale to carry as much as 21,000 pounds of external stores in addition to 9,000 pounds of internal fuel.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 23 May 2015 08:34

Rakesh wrote:
Viv S wrote:Its a dreadful decision but only if it goes through.

Will you give that same opinion if the IAF went in for the Typhoon?


Yes. I'd most certainly have the same opinion. If they offered the 50-60 second hand Eurofighter T1s to go along with that at a nominal cost, it would be worth serious consideration. But two squadrons off-the-shelf, no way.

(Of course if you replaced the EF with the F-35, I'd have a different opinion and for good reason.)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RKumar » 23 May 2015 13:23

If everything and everywhere is dark, can not see hope, hearts are filled with grief, all over misery; it could be our last hope.


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