B.S.Philip wrote:(MIG-29K price $32M)
Compared to a licensed built Rafale delivered by HAL perhaps. For the price of 36 off-the-shelf Rafales, you'd get maybe 50-55 Su-30MKIs, albeit locally built.or 72+ MKIs (MP's own statement)!
B.S.Philip wrote:(MIG-29K price $32M)
Compared to a licensed built Rafale delivered by HAL perhaps. For the price of 36 off-the-shelf Rafales, you'd get maybe 50-55 Su-30MKIs, albeit locally built.or 72+ MKIs (MP's own statement)!
Q: So has the government been advised wrongly?
A: Given the enormous price differential between the Rafale and Su-30 options, the decision makes no sense, unless it is that the government of India has bought into the IAF’s argument that it needs to diversify its sources of hardware. All this means that the Indian Air Force and the country are in hock to many more countries, and can be manipulated by them in the foreign policy arena and in crises. I am quite sure the PM was not offered the alternative to consider by the MEA-IAF-NSA combine.
Q: The Su-30MKI has been in service since the late 90s. If it can fill the requirement, then what was the need for the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender in the first place?
A: You tell me what the need is. In fact, as I have argued, the entire concept of a medium, light, heavy combat aircraft categories are unique to IAF and entirely spurious.
Q: But if you keep buying Russian hardware, you risk being manipulated by them?
A: The reality is this – Russia post-Crimea is getting into deep financial waters and India holds the whip hand in its reins with Moscow, which is not the case with our reins with France.
I've heard you repeat this over and over again. And I've corrected you over and over again. Close to dozen times I'd say.Philip wrote:(MIG-29K price $32M)
My ThoughtsPhilip wrote:Ciu Bono?
A;France ,the IAF and the Looney Tunes!
Not sure of how much technological edge the Russians can keep up vs the west in the long run !Altair wrote:My ThoughtsPhilip wrote:Ciu Bono?
A;France ,the IAF and the Looney Tunes!
I think in the long term its the Russians who will benefit out of this deal.
There are other National priorities to keep an eye on and Russia is the only country who can give India that Technology edge. Their contribution to Arihant and Chaandrayaan will not be ignored. Also, the geopolitical realities must also be considered. Invincible Pigeon was not in France and Germany for sight seeing. There may be lot of undercurrent which we may be acutely unaware off. Any future mess in "soothiya rapekiya" by current King or his dozen a dime cousins and we will be dealing directly with Kremlin for our Oil supplies. This G-G deal will set a tone for many deals in pipeline with Russians. More bhaav to Mig29s, FGFA and MKIs. I love Rambha anyways..
Modi Mantra "More Planes per Billion Rupees"..
Brahmos-II is still the most potent hypersonic cruise missile system in the world. The Akula is still the most affordable boat and most silent in its class. We need at-least a half a dozen more of these for just the eastern side. Who is going to give us? Not to mention, If we are planning for Manned space missions we need Russia help and they have been helping us.kit wrote: Not sure of how much technological edge the Russians can keep up vs the west in the long run !
Who has more control over Russia: China or India?Philip wrote:Q: But if you keep buying Russian hardware, you risk being manipulated by them?
A: The reality is this – Russia post-Crimea is getting into deep financial waters and India holds the whip hand in its reins with Moscow, which is not the case with our reins with France.
Last year Russian Airforce procured 16 Mig-29SMT for a total cost of $495 million each costing ~ $31 millionViv S wrote:I've heard you repeat this over and over again. And I've corrected you over and over again. Close to dozen times I'd say.Philip wrote:(MIG-29K price $32M)
India, Russia to ink $1.2 bn deal for 29 more MiG-29Ks
Russia Ready to Send More MiG-29K Fighters to India (Same figure repeated)
Navy to induct Russia's MiG-29K fighter jets (Same figure repeated)
That's 29 fighters for $1.2bn. $41.5 mil each. Confirmed by multiple sources. What part of this calculation are you finding hard to absorb?
^ The above figure dates back to 2010. A MiG-29K ordered in 2016 will be close to $60 mil per unit. More if it incorporates upgrades like an AESA.
India to sign contract for first 36 Rafale by June
India to Sign Rafale Contract By June
PARIS --- French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is to shortly travel to India to iron out the details of the direct sale of 36 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, with a view to signing the contract during the Paris air show in mid-June.
Negotiations will continue in parallel for the local production of at least 108 Rafale in India, although it can no longer be assumed that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be automatically involved [wait and see, in any case, not under MMRCA]. Dassault had originally planned to team with India’s privately-owned Reliance group and, in the wake of the April 10 announcement of a direct purchase, HAL officials made remarkably lackadaisical statements to Indian media:
“We did not initiate any concrete step at the HAL for manufacturing the planes here”, one HAL official told the India Tribune, adding that “After all, there was never much clarity on whether the deal with Rafale would be finally signed.” The official also revealed that HAL had done remarkably little to prepare for Rafale production: “There was never any question of acquiring land or bring together a team for MMRCA”, he said.
Given that Egypt, which has just ordered 24 Rafales, and India are both in a hurry to receive their aircraft, France will turn over to them its next 49 delivery slots, and will resume its own deliveries after 2019. Dassault currently builds Rafales at a rate of 11 a year, and needs about three years to double it.
Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday that "It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane……Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price” which he also said would be about 4 billion euros.
As we noted on Friday, a direct purchase will resolve most of the bottlenecks that have blocked the MMRCA contract negotiations over the past three years, and which mostly focus on the price of the 108 Indian-made aircraft and on who would provide their contractual warranty. The fundamental problem, however, is that by codifying and closely regulating as many aspects of defense procurement as it could, India’s previous government created a web of red tape so complex and so arcane that mutually-acceptable defense deals have become virtually impossible.
Another – and so far unsaid - factor is that HAL’s work-force is not yet capable of assembling aircraft as advanced as Rafale, and the Indian government appears to have realized that it was insisting on an expensive and time-consuming industrial fantasy that it would probably be unable to implement in the short term. Finally, a direct purchase would elegantly sidestep thorny coproduction issues, give India fixed, firm prices guaranteed by the French government, and relieve the current pressure to conclude a license production agreement that suits neither side.
Last year the Russian Air Force also ordered 7 Su-30SMs for a total cost of $331 million, each costing ~ $47 million.Austin wrote:Last year Russian Airforce procured 16 Mig-29SMT for a total cost of $495 million each costing ~ $31 million
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... 9smt-order
We cannot just guess and come with arbitrary price ........ atleast we know the MKI Made in India cost $60 million.Viv S wrote:Last year the Russian Air Force also ordered 7 Su-30SMs for a total cost of $331 million, each costing ~ $47 million.Austin wrote:Last year Russian Airforce procured 16 Mig-29SMT for a total cost of $495 million each costing ~ $31 million
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... 9smt-order
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... m-fighters
Who knows what is including and omitted in those prices. What matters to us is what price India pays for the aircraft. And that is certainly in excess of the $31 mil for the MiG-29K and $47 mil for the Su-30MKI.
Forget arbitrary prices and guesswork. The actual contract we signed with Russia in 2010 was for MiG-29Ks priced at $42 million each. How can they be any cheaper in 2015-16, (let alone a full $10 mil lower)?Austin wrote:We cannot just guess and come with arbitrary price ........ atleast we know the MKI Made in India cost $60 million.
Mig-29 would certainly be cheaper but how much is any bodys guess , If I have to do the same guess work which you are doing I would says 29K/SMT would cost around $40-45 million .....again its all guess work
Sure but the prices being mentioned now are not that un-realistic, I do not expect the rafale to cost anything less than 100 million euros per bird. But, here is the silly thing, why continue with Dassault alone, why not bring in the EF? Why not allow for a direct buy face off, as said I am sure EF consortium can provide a good counter offer by June. Moreso, the production rate of the EF is much faster at 35 per year at the moment. We'd have more birds in hand in 2-3 years than Rafale. As said, it would take 2-3 years to increase production for the Rafale while with EF with some adjustment in deliveries we can have a squadron in 3 years.Austin wrote:I wont take Mr Shukla value on Price of Rafale with any degree of reliability .....he has the tendency to pull out prices right out of his aarse if I may say so.
Its a perfectly reasonable number ($150-180M incl. weapons). Even if we go with official $125M for the aircraft, the cost of munitions will easily take the total well past $150M.Austin wrote:I wont take Mr Shukla value on Price of Rafale with any degree of reliability .....he has the tendency to pull out prices right out of his aarse if I may say so.
The M2K's role in Kargil was precision strike,which it performed well. What is ironic and interesting is that in an airforce with a large fleet of dedicated strike aircraft , i.e. , Jaguar and Mig 27, it is actually a modern multi role aircraft with ground strike as SECONDARY capability could do the job far better than the dedicated strikers !Anujan wrote:Mirage 2000 performance was the decisive edge during Kargil. The strike package of Mig-29 escorts and Mirage 2000 precision bombing is what shifted the air war decisively.
Yes it wont be cheaper but it wont be $60 million either .....I would still put the cost at ~ $45 million may be in worst case + $3 million ~ $47 million , but then there is no way to know the exact cost.Viv S wrote:Forget arbitrary prices and guesswork. The actual contract we signed with Russia in 2010 was for MiG-29Ks priced at $42 million each. How can they be any cheaper in 2015-16, (let alone a full $10 mil lower)?Austin wrote:We cannot just guess and come with arbitrary price ........ atleast we know the MKI Made in India cost $60 million.
Mig-29 would certainly be cheaper but how much is any bodys guess , If I have to do the same guess work which you are doing I would says 29K/SMT would cost around $40-45 million .....again its all guess work
I would wait for MOD to put out official figure on Rafale Deal........ we should get that in few weeks once deal gets signed.Viv S wrote:Its a perfectly reasonable number ($150-180M incl. weapons). Even if we go with official $125M for the aircraft, the cost of munitions will easily take the total well past $150M.Austin wrote:I wont take Mr Shukla value on Price of Rafale with any degree of reliability .....he has the tendency to pull out prices right out of his aarse if I may say so.
MICA: $2.5M x 8-10 = $20-25M
Meteor: $4M x 4-6 = $16-24M.
AASM - ?
SCALP-EG - ?
Of course, if the actual price overshoots the estimates we may be looking at a unit cost in excess of $200M.
Sure but the prices being mentioned now are not that un-realistic, I do not expect the rafale to cost anything less than 100 million euros per bird. But, here is the silly thing, why continue with Dassault alone, why not bring in the EF? Why not allow for a direct buy face off, as said I am sure EF consortium can provide a good counter offer by June. Moreso, the production rate of the EF is much faster at 35 per year at the moment. We'd have more birds in hand in 2-3 years than Rafale. As said, it would take 2-3 years to increase production for the Rafale while with EF with some adjustment in deliveries we can have a squadron in 3 years.Austin wrote:I wont take Mr Shukla value on Price of Rafale with any degree of reliability .....he has the tendency to pull out prices right out of his aarse if I may say so.
True. The Kayathar AFB was mentioned back in 2009deejay wrote: There is some talk of a developing a new base in South India. But so far it is talk.
It seem to be the equivalent of Karwar-Seabird project of IAF. Seem to take decades to fruition. We will hear a lot, until cheen starts tarring up some island nearby and MoD wakes upIt is likely to station Su-30 MKI or MRCA, if not another LCA squadron. Kayathar will, however, be the command’s principal base with an area of about 1,700 acres.
If it was $42 million in 2010, it can hardly be just $47 million six years later. A very modest 5% inflation rate takes us past $56 million.Austin wrote:Yes it wont be cheaper but it wont be $60 million either .....I would still put the cost at ~ $45 million may be in worst case + $3 million ~ $47 million , but then there is no way to know the exact cost.
Can you give me a quote for that? Is it a specific official figure or ballpark estimate from a speech/tweet/interview?Austin wrote:Not being un-realistic is not the same as being factual ......Shuklaw had last year mentioned the MKI cost at $75 million when we know from MOD latest figure its $60 million.
And he says we have got a better deal in place. So, what exactly does that mean? Better than what Dassault promised in its bid and then reneged or better than the overall price after involving HAL - the number mentioned is 31mn man hours for Dassault and 2.7 times that number for HAL. They also mention that as the reason for the price escalation. Is manpower in France not 4 times the cost in India?KBDagha wrote:If you hear Mr. Parikkar's interview, he says the total cost of 126 Rafael would have come to Rs. 90,000 Crores that comes to USD 115 Million per plane approximately at rate of 1$ = 62 Rs.
...
Senior IAF officers said the 36 Rafales would comprise two squadrons of 14 single-seat and two twin-seat trainers each. The remaining four single-seat fighters would be part of the "maintenance reserve", a two-star IAF officer said.
An official Indian statement declared that the Rafale fighters "would be compatible to the IAF's operational requirements".
The aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration, as had been tested and approved by the IAF and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, it added.
..
That pretty much applies to any thing you buy if that is the basis of calculationViv S wrote:If it was $42 million in 2010, it can hardly be just $47 million six years later. A very modest 5% inflation rate takes us past $56 million.
https://www.saddahaq.com/foreign-affair ... at39s-lifeViv S wrote: Can you give me a quote for that? Is it a specific official figure or ballpark estimate from a speech/tweet/interview?
The air force received its first overhauled Su-30MKI (SB 027) from HAL in January. The overhaul facility at HAL Nashik is the first to be set up for the type globally. HAL chairman RK Tyagi says the airframer will now act as “a single window original equipment manufacturer for supporting the Su-30MKI fleet”.
“We are confident of improving the serviceability and ramping up capacity,” he adds.
New Su-30MKI’s delivered by HAL are estimated to cost $60 million each, with a comprehensive 14 year/1,500h overhaul costing the operator just under $20 million. With a second overhauled fighter now due for delivery, HAL says it can overhaul 15 aircraft annually at Nashik. Presently the total technical life of an Su-30MKI is 6,000h/25 years, and time between overhaul for its NPO Saturn AL31FP engines is 1,000h, with a total technical life of 2,000h. The time between overhaul and total technical life for the thrust vector nozzle is half of that of the engine.
Janes http://www.janes.com/article/47533/indi ... fale-talks
"The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs," Parrikar said, adding that at INR3.58 billion (USD59.66 million) each, the unit cost of the Su-30MKIs being licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was less than half that of a Rafale.