Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Apr 2015 08:51

I hope this does not become a Mirage-2000 purchase redux! Either we get the whole lot of Rafale required or junk the whole MMRCA purchase and go with Su-30 MKI/Su-35 purchase...it was piecemeal buying in earlier times which led to menagerie of fighters in IAF. We junked Mirage-2000 for Mig-29 and never bothered to mass produce even Mig-29...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 08:57

LOL RV so true! But mark my words, IAF will buy more squadrons of this beyond first 3 and in 202x, CAG will have a fit.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Apr 2015 09:00

Well from Hollande's last statement, it seems that something is on the cards - either the original or the new deal, that remains to be seen. Hopefully, one way or the other, it will be over.

What I don't get is IAF's huge penchant for the Rafale - what is the deal here? One understands that it has some amazing multirole capabilities but where is the secret sauce, eh? May be the spectra did a spectracular number on the IAF, oui?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 09:04

CM, they want the latest and shiniest toy. Its that simple. And they think it will come with everything sorted out unlike the MKI, Tejas etc where the IAF has to do a lot of heavy lifting too. Its a "simple answer".
But I'll bet it'll be anything but. Check out the price gouging on the Rafale.. but our Air Marshals and Jarnails have a lot of faith in the Indian economy's perennial growth and think their funding will always be available at x% of GDP. Time will tell..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 09:17

I saw Vishnu Som reporting on NDTV News on the outright purchase of Rafale.

I am a bit skeptical because it would mean cancelling the MMRCA tender of sort and all the DPP rules etc and might becomes political/corruption issue for the government.

But I think IAF would be happy which would mean faster procurement and slowing depleting strength.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 09:30

New toys.. why wouldn't the IAF be happy? But seriously we need to keep a focus on Su-30 serviceability.. that's where the real punch lies. Its at what 60% now? Needs to be 80% for a 270 strong fleet..that 20% jump alone would account for a 3sq Rafale buy!

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 10 Apr 2015 09:41

Is FMS route with Franch Govt to India Govt possible ? Just like the US.
Thay way they can circumvent all procedures and tending.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Apr 2015 09:41

Everyone's talking about the new rumor itself. But what are Nitin Gokhale's antecedents ? What makes him reliable ? There are too many things to this 'news' that don't fit with the general tenor of GoI's Make In India push. Neither NM nor MP have sounded sympathetic to IAF's 'critical requirement onlee' wail until now. It was just over a month ago that Modi pitched Make in India at Aero India 2015.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 09:45

Karan M wrote:New toys.. why wouldn't the IAF be happy? But seriously we need to keep a focus on Su-30 serviceability.. that's where the real punch lies. Its at what 60% now? Needs to be 80% for a 270 strong fleet..that 20% jump alone would account for a 3sq Rafale buy!

DM mentioned servicibility of MKI at 56 % as of date and by the end of year it would be 70 %.

But lets assume all the IAF fighter fleet has servicibility of 90 % that still wont deal with attrition and retirement of older aircraft this decade which IIRC will go down by 5-7 squadron by end of this decade.

Which means servicibility of any aircraft has nothing to do with MMRCA purchase which is more about squadron replacement this and next decade ~ 10 years time.

So if Modi can weather the political/CAG/PAC storm and go for outright purchase of 60 Rafale then it would be good for the IAF and if he follows up with say additional purchase 40 Tejas Mk1 and additional order for 40 Mk2 then Mk1 gets lead time to get into squadron while Rafale is being purchased.

But mind you outright purchase has its own medium/long time issue with it comes to servicibility ......no TOT means Rafale will have to be serviced at Dassult for some time till they build servicing facility in India , it also means any upgrade of Rafale in its 35 years cycle means French would charge in Gold a-la M2K, regular spares would be expensive too as most have to be imported without TOT

There are pros and cons for both , its now a Political Decision that Modi has to take depending on real strnegth of IAF squadron and the money he can spare that would be something only he would be aware off beyond the fog.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 09:50

the buildup of repair and servicing facility in india will have to start from the day deal is signed so that its online when the 1st tranches of planes arrive.

there is no question of sending rafales back to france for 2nd level servicing, it has to be done in HAL.

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 10 Apr 2015 09:55

Pakis bleed us with terror / " thousand cut " strategy
Frenchies / Ruskies / Yankees bleed us with defence contracts
Chinese bleed us with low cost products / dumping strategies
Banglas are taking over the North East and infiltrate into India by the millions
Srilankans will shoot our fishermen and our Coast Guard will not be around

By this time even a banana republic would have said enough is enough
Our capacity to take shit is infinite

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 09:56

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:New toys.. why wouldn't the IAF be happy? But seriously we need to keep a focus on Su-30 serviceability.. that's where the real punch lies. Its at what 60% now? Needs to be 80% for a 270 strong fleet..that 20% jump alone would account for a 3sq Rafale buy!
DM mentioned servicibility of MKI at 56 % as of date and by the end of year it would be 70 %.

But lets assume all the IAF fighter fleet has servicibility of 90 % that still wont deal with attrition and retirement of older aircraft this decade which IIRC will go down by 5-7 squadron by end of this decade.

Which means servicibility of any aircraft has nothing to do with MMRCA purchase which is more about squadron replacement this and next decade ~ 10 years time..

Missed the point by a mile and a quarter.

Simply put, the point was that no amount of new acquisitions in piecemeal amounts can MAKE UP for the primary platform which is in 4.5x the number having lower serviceability. A fleet of 270 odd Sukhois having HIGH serviceability is any day preferable tsplurging on a few silver bullets or debating them ad nauseum.

In even simpler words, 270 Su-30s & their serviceability status, today and tomorrow >>> than the impact of 60 odd Rafales.

That is what the MOD should be focused on (and BRF too) rather than going around glum or happy about Rafales this, that because bird in the hand and all that..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 09:59

Suraj wrote:Everyone's talking about the new rumor itself. But what are Nitin Gokhale's antecedents ? What makes him reliable ? There are too many things to this 'news' that don't fit with the general tenor of GoI's Make In India push. Neither NM nor MP have sounded sympathetic to IAF's 'critical requirement onlee' wail until now. It was just over a month ago that Modi pitched Make in India at Aero India 2015.

He's a pretty decent journo (written on Siachen) and definitely not one of the adarsh liberal ethnically biased (support one ethnic group in IA over other types as some of the Punju gang in Chandigarh are), but his forte is Army not AF TBH.
Basically its all about his "sources".. and there is no given something of this sort can and will be true for sure!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 10:19

Karan M wrote:Missed the point by a mile and a quarter.

Simply put, the point was that no amount of new acquisitions in piecemeal amounts can MAKE UP for the primary platform which is in 4.5x the number having lower serviceability. A fleet of 270 odd Sukhois having HIGH serviceability is any day preferable tsplurging on a few silver bullets or debating them ad nauseum.

In even simpler words, 270 Su-30s & their serviceability status, today and tomorrow >>> than the impact of 60 odd Rafales.

That is what the MOD should be focused on (and BRF too) rather than going around glum or happy about Rafales this, that because bird in the hand and all that..

I would say the same Missed by Miles.

MMRCA purchase since early 2000 was never about servicibility of existing fighter it was about replacement of types to be number plated and beefing up existing squad strength.

Had it been only about servicibility IAF would have put the money where the mouth is and improved it for all types which they strive to do in any case.

In best case you would get servicibility any higher than 70 % on an average there might be peaks and lows but average best case would be 70 % for fighter that with lots of luck and effort.

You are faced with Squadron depletion of 5-7 Squad this decade and perhaps similar number next the older Jags , 21 , 27 will surely go in next 5-10 years , there is also a desired goal to reach 45 Squad by end of next decade.

IAF cannot depend on good faith of HAL to churn out even tejas mk1 and put its ops service on words from them , Mk2 lets be honest its yet to fly.

So all in all MMRCA is an inevitibility and rafale is the types that IAF wants and wins over other types in the race , Then the "idea" of outright purchase of 60 is a good one.

you can sweeten it with more purchase of MK1 and later Mk2 to replace certain types and to beef squadron strength again a lot depends on how HAL does when it comes to production and I will wait and see how HAL fares up ......I dont have crystal ball but if past performance of HAL is any thing to go by I will be skeptical on production front.

Again more purchase of MKI or much better servicibility of MKI is not a substitute for MMRCA of IAF is "tied" to a operational philosophy of light, medium and heavy types in its best wisdom.

The DM talk of lets buy more MKI is just a political bluff and negotiation tactic that one can see through and IAF is being honest and candid if not being accused of outright stubborn in saying there is no substitute to Rafale.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Apr 2015 10:23

Thanks Karan M. He doesn't have to be malicious. Just being a useful idiot will do in this situation. Things that don't make sense to me:
* MP and NM repeatedly refuse IAF's 'me want Rafale!!' cries and openly suggest other options, e.g. MKI + LCA.
* NM slaps IAF in the face at AI2015 with his Make in India pitch.
* NM also asserts 70% indigenization at AI2015.
* NM says he's going to Canada to acquire access to raw material and fuel, and to France and Germany to access technology.

The clear goal is to not procure finished stuff but drive production here. And then he supposedly is going there and will avoid a very expensive deal with some of his 'Make in India', and instead will sign a slightly less expensive deal with absolutely nothing at all in indigenous development content ? Because we all went to bed last night and woke up to a much more desperate IAF situation magically ?

My money therefore is on this being a trial balloon meant to force GoI to accede to this idea by getting the MoD and 4th estate behind the 'IAF khatre mein hain!' vocals.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Apr 2015 10:27

It was the only way the Rafale would arrive in Indian skies.The French thumbs down on HAL built aircraft,Reliance have yet to build a paper plane,meant no way that Dassault would agree to a "make in India" aircraft. So much for Mr.Modi's oft repeated mantra!

It appears that the IAF want both the Raffy and the FGFA (by 2020),so no more quick-fix locally-built MKIs,save that money for another off-the-shelf T-50 deal by the year end. A few crumbs will be thrown to the LCA programme,$1B means about 40 aircraft,so big deal if that is also grandly announced at some time during the year to beat the drum of "make in India" !

In pure cost vs numbers evaluation,we could've acquired another 120+ MKIs for the same cost we are paying for the 60 Rafales,or even 180+ MIG-29s! One can figure out how many LCAs as well,approx 250+ for the same price. We will now be paying through our bungholes for decades to come for spares,suppport,weaponry,etc.,buying everything at inflated French prices in the years to come.I can only see this as part of a package where French companies walk away with about $15-20B+ in deals thanks to Mr.M. IAF johnnies will be delirious as they much prefer the Moulin Rouge to the Bolshoi!

I agree with Brar.The US has no dog in the fight.The F-16/F-18 are too long in the tooth. The JSF even if available right now would be around $100m plus another $10M+ for the engine.Weaponry,spares,etc. extra.None immediately available for a quick-fix transfer as allegedly offered by the French.

This does not in any way resolve the fact of declining numbers of aircraft...in the hundreds. That future solution can only be achieved by success on the LCA front. If the Rafale deal is going to delay the LCA programme for lack of funds,and the IAF will in the future demand the "better Rafale instead of LCA Mk-2",one can be very sure that we can kiss the backside of the Tejas goodbye with the programme even less successful than the HF-24,yet again thanks to govt. indifference and HAL's inability to deliver the goods from its track record,IJT,BT,etc,

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 10 Apr 2015 10:56

Viv S wrote:
Nitin Gokhale wrote:India is likely to ask for lowering of the price per aircraft too when the G-to-G negotiations get underway. By ordering 60 aircraft to be manufactured in France itself, the government is also hoping to skirt the tricky issue of guaranteeing quality of work under Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), designated as the Lead Production Agency in India.

The government's drastic decision to scarp the torturous procurement process is aimed at augmenting the IAF's falling numbers as well as save about RS 60,000 crore in precious foreign exchange. The calculation is that the 60-odd aircraft would cost about RS 40-45000 crore to be paid out over next four-five years instead of over Rs one Lakh crore necessary to procure the original number of 126 combat jets.
Rs 45,000 crore equals $7.5 billion. Which makes the 'hoped-for' procurement cost of a flyaway Rafale approximately $125 million per unit (including support & training). Given that the Egyptians are paying nearly $4bn for their 24 Rafales (unit cost - $170 million), the MoD may find its hope of a cheap direct acquisition dashed when the (new set) of cost negotiations begin. Not to mention the cost of the weapons complement, which will be excruciating as well.

The $4bn also includes two or more frigates and missiles. I'm not sure that is the correct price in any case. FLy-away cost as reported by French media was $90-95mn. That would be about $6bn for 63 a/c plus about $1bn for spares, missiles and armaments. Not sure why the original bid of $12bn for exactly double the number cannot be adhered to! Like, all they've done is split that order by half, and then removed any DPP/Make in India/Tech Transfer issues without reducing cost. It would be the quickest path to losing the trust of the public. Think of it as Bofors part 2 *1000.

partha · Post by **partha** » 10 Apr 2015 10:58

"Confirmed" by Livefist.

That report by Nitin Gokhale looked to me more like a GoI's deliberate leak to him than a "scoop" by him.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 11:17

Austin wrote:I would say the same Missed by Miles.

MMRCA purchase since early 2000 was never about servicibility of existing fighter it was about replacement of types to be number plated and beefing up existing squad strength.

Had it been only about servicibility IAF would have put the money where the mouth is and improved it for all types which they strive to do in any case.

In best case you would get servicibility any higher than 70 % on an average there might be peaks and lows but average best case would be 70 % for fighter that with lots of luck and effort.

You are faced with Squadron depletion of 5-7 Squad this decade and perhaps similar number next the older Jags , 21 , 27 will surely go in next 5-10 years , there is also a desired goal to reach 45 Squad by end of next decade.

IAF cannot depend on good faith of HAL to churn out even tejas mk1 and put its ops service on words from them , Mk2 lets be honest its yet to fly.

So all in all MMRCA is an inevitibility and rafale is the types that IAF wants and wins over other types in the race , Then the "idea" of outright purchase of 60 is a good one.

you can sweeten it with more purchase of MK1 and later Mk2 to replace certain types and to beef squadron strength again a lot depends on how HAL does when it comes to production and I will wait and see how HAL fares up ......I dont have crystal ball but if past performance of HAL is any thing to go by I will be skeptical on production front.

Again more purchase of MKI or much better servicibility of MKI is not a substitute for MMRCA of IAF is "tied" to a operational philosophy of light, medium and heavy types in its best wisdom.

The DM talk of lets buy more MKI is just a political bluff and negotiation tactic that one can see through and IAF is being honest and candid if not being accused of outright stubborn in saying there is no substitute to Rafale.

More ranting without even the ability to understand what the facts are.

How many Su-30s are in service? 270. Whats the current serviceability? 60%. What is the impact on the IAF? Disproportionate, as even 200 odd Sukhois in service translate to 120 odd available. Aircraft in service, for which spares can be stockpiled, combat power can be raised asap since training/doctrine all are in place.

As versus 60 odd Rafales, to be inducted several years later.

Which should be the bigger priority for any MOD? Getting its existing fleet in order or chasing wheels for a new procurement? Or even while doing both, making sure first is done?

And yes, we know the MOD is doing that. Since you can't understand what was said, let me reiterate - I hope they keep the pressure on.

Anyone with an iota of common sense can see which is which.

PS:What is the bigger priority for combat boost in the short term to even medium term? The Su-30 availability.
Also, Nobody talked of having the Su-30 availability hike replace your beloved Rafale. It was merely pointing out how important the Su-30 issue is while media and everyone fixate on the Rafale. You couldn't get that either, clearly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 11:22

Suraj wrote:Thanks Karan M. He doesn't have to be malicious. Just being a useful idiot will do in this situation. Things that don't make sense to me:
* MP and NM repeatedly refuse IAF's 'me want Rafale!!' cries and openly suggest other options, e.g. MKI + LCA.
* NM slaps IAF in the face at AI2015 with his Make in India pitch.
* NM also asserts 70% indigenization at AI2015.
* NM says he's going to Canada to acquire access to raw material and fuel, and to France and Germany to access technology.

The clear goal is to not procure finished stuff but drive production here. And then he supposedly is going there and will avoid a very expensive deal with some of his 'Make in India', and instead will sign a slightly less expensive deal with absolutely nothing at all in indigenous development content ? Because we all went to bed last night and woke up to a much more desperate IAF situation magically ?

My money therefore is on this being a trial balloon meant to force GoI to accede to this idea by getting the MoD and 4th estate behind the 'IAF khatre mein hain!' vocals.

I hope you are right Suraj. This doesn't support Make in India at all. In fact, its more or less a given more aircraft will be taken by the IAF & without local production, sustainment (as with the Mirage) will be completely at the beck and call of France.

Its not uncommon to see IAF personnel engaging with SMEs at trade fairs asking them to help out with indigenizing Mirage 2000 parts, kits, decades after induction.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 11:25

partha wrote:"Confirmed" by Livefist.

That report by Nitin Gokhale looked to me more like a GoI's deliberate leak to him than a "scoop" by him.

Yes but so many leaks over the years..

Looks like the MMRCA was a poison pill left by the previous INC cabal and NaMo was forced to this via IAF's needs and what not. Budgetary restrictions meant paying higher costs for local production was a gone case.

Basically a bad deal in several ways for industry and strategic independence as we are tied at hip now to France's sustainment. Good deal from perspective of boosting combat power.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 11:36

http://www.janes.com/article/50530/anal ... ale-pak-fa

Not a fan of Reuben Johnson - has written much rubbish in the past and the Russophobe angle comes out well - 'Russians treat Indians as bla bla'. B Stuff about paper PAKFA is rubbish. Its in a viable test plan. But in this he is right, that its a funding issue & decision between FGFA and Rafale (because of our funding constraints at present) and relying only on PAKFA would make us fully dependent on Russia.

So basically by cutting Rafale, we have saved funds to go ahead with PAKFA and get it locally manufactured with TOT, and hedged our capabilities.
Over a period of time, though - there will again be a debate about more Rafales or PAKFAs. I'd wager anyday that IAF will push tooth and nail for getting a few more Rafale squadrons in, even if the MOD points out the PAKFA makes more sense from a capability/industrial perspective (locally built). Because Rafale is a proven platform etc. And so it'll go..

As always, it will be AMCA which will have to do the heavy lifting for generating local aero industry.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 11:39

Another factor?
http://www.janes.com/article/50380/fren ... -unit-cost

France's Dassault Aviation may be about to enjoy government financial support of the type that would enable its Rafale fighter to push into export markets. Both the contract announced earlier this year for 24 aircraft to be sold to Egypt, as well as a proposal made in mid-March for what is anticipated to be a request for proposals for a 16-18 aircraft buy from Malaysia, feature loans backed by French government guarantees as the financing mechanism for the sales.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Apr 2015 12:14

Shishir Gupta in Hindustan Times quoting “Senior Official” also reports that the Rafale contract is set to drastically change tack.

The tack to be adopted now is “on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route” ……….. IF ……………..“the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries”.

Originally planned licensed manufacture by HAL seems dead.

With price now becoming the issue, I doubt a concrete deal will be concluded during PM Modi’s France visit. At best there may be a statement of good intent about doing a deal in the future:

"After detailed analysis of the RFP and the laborious process followed by the previous government, it was evident that the entire deal could not be worked out with serious discrepancies in the negotiations that could lead to litigation in future," said a senior official.

The 2012 deal envisages 18 ready-to-fly Rafales supplied to the IAF by this year, and the remaining 108 to be manufactured under licence in India.

With the NDA government not willing to let the IAF fighter squadron strength dip into the critical zone in coming years, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President François Hollande will on Friday discuss ways to clinch the Rafale deal. "If the French company is willing to lower the price per aircraft due to recovery of development costs on missiles, ammunition and sale to other countries, then India could go for outright purchase of the 4.5 generation fighter through the French government route. The deal could be negotiated and signed in 2015 itself but numbers to be purchased depend on offered price. India has purchased the Lockheed Martin C-130 J Super Hercules, Boeing C-17 Globemaster and P-8I Poseidon aircraft from the US on the basis of strategic requirement and operational necessity through the G2G route," a senior official told Hindustan Times.

Shishir Gupta is talking of 40 Rafaels being purchased:

India is now seriously considering strategic purchase of up to 40 Rafales for the Indian Air Force (IAF) through the government-to-government (G2G) route on account of operational necessity

With Modi arriving in Paris, India and France set to push Rafale deal

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 12:19

126-->60-->40--->?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Apr 2015 12:20

Arun,tx for the update.So there still is a caveat on the price reduction,which has to happen.

Karan,it is like "British aid" to "turd world" Commonwealth nations,where the contracts for dams,eqpt.,etc. go only to British firms. It perpetuates the after sales support.logistics dependent upon British cos.,for decades helping British exports.

So French subsidies for Dassault,etc.,to help win export orders will eventually "ease" themselves with expensive after-sales service!

One agrees completely with beefing up the availability of MKIs,Jags,whatever is in the current inventory,a much cheaper method of increasing the combat capability of the IAF than by only acquiring new birds. The MKI programme is now very nearly a fully indigenous programme with 70%+ of the entire aircraft being sourced and made in India,with great scope for further upgrades.

But the IAF have to have their imported toys.Some things never change.Has the IAF's obstinate attitude for a CDS for decades altered in the light of hints that the 3 services have finally come round to it? Could this be a tangential factor too?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 12:26

Karan M wrote:126-->60-->40--->?

the french are quite rich, they should over us a vendor financed loan to cover the deal for 60, with 1% interest and 30 yr repayment period. maybe even some barter like with the old SU as in we send tea, rice, wheat, meat(goat onlee not beef

), fruit, spices and they send us rafales.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 12:28

TSP is going to be squealing by tonight for 60 F_16-block52 to restore the strategic balance in the sooth asia.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Apr 2015 12:29

Karan M wrote:126-->60-->40--->?

40 to start with more later. So it might well be
40 --> 60 --> 126

I hope it stops at 63 off the self. I suspect this is one half of a half-n-half deal for IAF. All of this is hawa till the principals make a comment.

Added Later > Then there is offset, cost, etc to be worked out. Lets see.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 13:14

Even if we purchase 40 or 60 outright , we should not dilute the TOT when it comes to building Spares from local raw materials for life cycle support and ability to control the source code and weapons integration.

Compromising on this would be very expensive life cycle support and upgrade and running to Dassault for any new weapons integration.

We might end looking Penny Wise Pound Foolish later , Rest All is Fine

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 13:20

Terrain-following autopilot capability eyed for Rafale fighters
By Richard Tomkins | April 9, 2015 at 3:06 PM

A Dassault Rafale fighter jet takes to the sky during the 49th International Paris Air Show at Le Bourget near Paris on June 20, 2011.

PARIS, April 9 (UPI) -- French Air Force and Navy authorities are jointly working to develop an autopilot terrain-following capability for its single-seat Rafale fighters.

The terrain-following capability, which is to undergo flight trials by the Air Force's Centre d'Expériences Aériennes Militaires, or military aircraft test center, and the French Navy's Détachement du Centre d'Expérimentations Pratiques de l'Aéronautique Navale, or Naval Aviation Flight Trials Detachment, would allow single-seat Rafales to perform fire support missions as well as intercept unidentified aircraft flying at very low altitude, even through low cloud cover.

"Integrated into the aircraft, this flight control mode allows it to fly at high speed and low level over the ground or sea, the French Air Force said. "In complete safety and under all weather conditions, the aircraft can operate at very low level by day and night thanks to its sophisticated advanced autopilot, which protects the crew by preventing the aircraft from impacting natural (terrain features) and artificial (antennas, bridges, cables, etc) obstacles. The crew is thus free to concentrate on the prosecution of its mission, on surviving in a hostile environment and on achieving its operational objectives."

Information on how far development of the system has progressed and when flight trials may begin was not disclosed in the service's announcement.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 13:21

it has been announced that the Egypt rafale will have their nuclear missile capability removed and also the nato comms suite.

if we do a deal it must be given in writing the vendor will support any indian weapon like astra or Brahmos-M integration and NOT ask questions about the role of the weapon or its payload.

nash · Post by **nash** » 10 Apr 2015 13:44

http://www.firstpost.com/world/modi-in- ... 91291.html

Reports said that the government was "seriously considering a strategic purchase of up to 60 Rafales for the Indian Air Force" due to "operational necessity", with further purchases later.

According to a report in the CNN-IBN, the deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft. The final signing of the MMRCA deal has not yet taken place as India and France have some differences over the final amount.

If above speculation is true then why can't we go for ~8 billion $ for 120 and keeping rest of things similar, as mention by Austin, except license production

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Apr 2015 13:57

So it appears that they're using the follow-on clause for the 63 Rafales to be able to purchase 3 squadrons worth of Rafales directly from France. Price being quoted is 7.2 billion euros which works out to $7.6 billion. The near parity in the euro to dollar conversion is helping.

India wants to buy it as soon sixty Rafale

World | 10.04.2015 at 10:05 • Updated 10/04/2015 11:00 | By Cédric Pietralunga , Dominique Gallois and Julien Bouissou (New Delhi, correspondence)

After Egypt, another agreement surprise? Reportedly, negotiations between the French and Indian Governments were underway Friday morning April 10, for the purchase of three squadrons of Rafale, 63 planes, for a total of 7.2 billion euros. "The discussions lasted all night, they are continuing this morning ensured a close case without prejudging their findings. The idea is to be able to announce this contract during the visit to Paris of Narendra Modi, the Indian Prime Minister, Friday or Saturday.

"The issue of Rafale is still under discussion and we should be able to move forward on a mutually acceptable basis," stated Mr. Modi Le Figaro, owned by Dassault, published Thursday, April 9, on the eve of his arrival in Paris.

If the number of fighters finally ordered was not yet fully arrested Friday morning, the principle of the assembly would be granted. Specifically, the Indian government would play an option contained in the "Contract of the Century" 126 devices, Dassault granted in 2012. It provides for the purchase "off the shelf" of 63 additional Rafale, that is -dire made in France and not in India as provided in the main contract. New Delhi, this would quickly dispose of devices without waiting for the end of negotiations on the initial contract and, above all, without having to launch a new tender.
..

The price issue

The French had been successful on this point, but a last sticking point concerned the overall price. The unit cost of a Rafale produced in India has indeed proved superior to that produced in France, due to the need to establish a comprehensive network of contractors, non-existent there, and train teams. The Rafale 'make in India ", 108 copies are provided on the 126 contract, would have an additional cost of € 8 billion, bringing the total contract of 12 to 20 billion euros.

"This is the first time that India had decided to spend a tender of this magnitude precisely to protect against political interference," said Rakesh Sood, former Ambassador of India in France. But the stumbling blocks, the Indian press has echoed, multiplied. "And the pressure that rested on the shoulders of the group members made by the Indian government to conclude the contract of" Century " could slow down procedures, "says Rakesh Sood.

..

Production until the end of 2016

The agreement, if it materializes, would remove some of the uncertainty related to the financing of the 2014-2019 military planning law (LPM). For several years, the French government is committed to ensure the production rate of the Rafale, with a minimum of eleven aircraft per year, not to undermine the chain of Dassault and its 500 subcontractors. However, the new LPM has awarded 26 Rafales for the French army, which ensures production only until the end of 2016. The state has provided for that date to stop his aircraft Dassault purchases to dedicate this budget other priority materials.

During the LPM, Dassault Rafale produce 66 at the rate of eleven aircraft per year. Excluding production for France, the 40 others must be purchased by foreign countries, otherwise Paris must acquire. With the 24 ordered by Egypt and those proposed by India, production for overseas would be assured.

translated from French article in Le Monde magazine

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 14:16

the legal framework makes sense now and will probably pass muster with CAG and co.

but probably a world first where a follow-on clause is exercised before the main deal is inked

but in india we build houses and move in first and then worry about roads and power and drainage so par for course

these "options" get added in dibs and dabs later.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Apr 2015 14:17

Speculation and masturbation are rhyming words. But both are no substitute for the real thing.

nits · Post by **nits** » 10 Apr 2015 14:21

shiv wrote:Speculation and masturbation are rhyming words. But both are no substitute for the real thing.

epic

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 14:29

Le Monde is reporting that talks are on since last night.

its the french equivalent of Hindu, starchy but usually correct on such matters I think.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 10 Apr 2015 14:34

nash wrote:http://www.firstpost.com/world/modi-in- ... 91291.html

Reports said that the government was "seriously considering a strategic purchase of up to 60 Rafales for the Indian Air Force" due to "operational necessity", with further purchases later.

According to a report in the CNN-IBN, the deal is worth over $4 billion and it overrides the MMRCA process in which Dasault Rafale was lowest bidder for 126 aircraft. The final signing of the MMRCA deal has not yet taken place as India and France have some differences over the final amount.
If above speculation is true then why can't we go for ~8 billion $ for 120 and keeping rest of things similar, as mention by Austin, except license production

It is more likely $4bn for the initial 40. Rs 26,000 for 40 to be delivered over 3/4 years. But MOD and IAF struggle committing Rs 800cr for a second Tejas Mk 1 line.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Apr 2015 14:45

If GoI is using the follow on clause to purchase, what does it do to the power dynamics in negotiations? The French know for sure that GoI/IAF are desperate.