Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Samay » 23 Mar 2015 19:01

Procurement by a Govt. entity for another Govt . entity ( in this case MoD bureaucracy for IAF Commanders and Pilots) is an entirely different ball game, and I think we're stuck in it.
One can easily see that they are different institutions by work culture, standards and basic principles, although under the same ministry.

A similar analogy would be IOCL finalizing drilling rights in a foreign land for ONGC.

Before tendering no one would have thought that it will take IAF and MoD 10 yrs(or maybe more) to finalize it.

Then, to further delay there is, 1)price escalation, 2)constant dhoti shivering on any loopholes in the procurement decisions made (which is believe it or not the main contributing factor for the delays in this deal or any deal whatsoever),3)the French have their own characters and finally 4) someone in the Modi govt will be thinking why the UPA can't do it in 10 yrs, or what was not in it for them or what is in it that delays the whole process.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 23 Mar 2015 22:49

DM is playing a good mind game with French to get the biggest deal French can dream of , they are squeezing the French on cost as promised in RFP and on the other hand letting the French know there will be cost if they don't stick to their commitment , at this stage GOI has nothing to loose bringing in MKI as alternative and Dassault every thing to loose if they don't keep to their commitment , as far as mmrca goes at least we are in driver seat.

Hope we get the best deal from them.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_24684 » 24 Mar 2015 07:45

Austin wrote:DM is playing a good mind game with French to get the biggest deal French can dream of , they are squeezing the French on cost as promised in RFP and on the other hand letting the French know there will be cost if they don't stick to their commitment , at this stage GOI has nothing to loose bringing in MKI as alternative and Dassault every thing to loose if they don't keep to their commitment , as far as mmrca goes at least we are in driver seat.

Hope we get the best deal from them.


you mean the latest Su 35 MKI offer

I would satisfy with LCA's Performance but no more Russian piece of Junks

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 24 Mar 2015 08:17

Su35 may not be a junk sir. It may be good bet provided cost is cheap. It may not be cheap but compared to Rafale it may be reasonable. However, I agree with you that serious consideration need to be given on LCA mass production. I mean may be some 36 per year which was proposed by HAL as per the reports. Mk2 can be a very good one to have particularly against the most of the old junk the pakis and lizard got.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 24 Mar 2015 09:41

The issue is Russian tech is somewhat different compared to western as both build according to different philosophies. .IAF doesn't want it .. it's operational strategies seem to factor in western styles more than Russian
.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 24 Mar 2015 10:49

Cosmo_R wrote:
Karan M wrote:Ramana, mostly French owned (eg includes Safran subsidiaries in Belgium f.e.) but a fair amount of EU stuff and US gear too (Moog actuators, just like with the LCA)


So what does this 'fair amount of ...US gear too (Moog actuators, just like with the LCA)' mean from a sanctions perspective?


It means if push comes to shove US can sanction and delay the Rafale.. but overall French/EU industry does have the capability to replace these if it must and should. Hispano Suiza, some Italian firms all make complex actuators/similar products..

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 24 Mar 2015 10:52

Wow..was anyone aware of this counter-offer by Airbus Defence and Space (ADS) backed by the German govt. for Typhoons?

High stakes in Indian MMRCA- Eurofighter's counter offer cheaper than Rafale

23 March 2015

High-Stakes in Indian MMRCA, Eurofighter Makes Strategic Push

In one of the slowest defence deals in history - Medium Multi-Role Combat Air-craft (MMRCA) -, MT recently learnt that the Narendra Modi government is studying a German proposal (offering a new cheaper proposal for its Eurofighter TYPHOON), even as Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has been negotiating with Dassault, the maker of the RAFALE, to finalise agreements to produce the aircraft in India. The RAFALE deal for 126 jets is estimated to cost €20 billion (Rs.1.6 lakh crore) over the next decade and is considered the biggest global defence tender.

Representatives of the German government met leaders of the Indian MoD and culminated in a new commercial proposal that seeks to undercut the French bid. The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration. The scale of the "discount"-formally offered in early July to Defence Minister Arun Jait-ley-was substantial enough to create ripples at the very top of the Government, with Prime Minister Modi also being apprised about the development, sources said.

In terms of the net present value- the hypothetical cost of buying the entire fleet in one go at current prices-the new offer is at a little more than €10.5 billion, while the French price is estimated to be a billion euros more. Calculated on the basis of the firm fixed price-or the amount India has to pay over 10 years-the German price comes to €17.5 billion.

Other news sources state that German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier offered 126 Eurofighter TYPHOON for approx. U$9.8 billion, about $2 billion less than the original French $12 billion.


The German offer, which has come through Eurofighter TYPHOON manufacturer Airbus Defence & Space (DS), has raised doubts over the future of the RAFALE deal even though there is no scope for a revised price offer in the defence ministry's procurement rules. Experts believe that while there is no room for renegotiating the contract under the rules, the size of the German discount would force the Indian government to take a fresh look at the price offered by France. The counter-offer is supposed to be the outcome of hectic diplomatic manoeuvring by major European powers that have a high stake in the contract due to its sheer value and the job creation potential that can boost the economy of consortium member nations.

India would also have to deal with pressure from Paris, given that France has invested a lot of political capital in the deal. France is India's third-largest supplier of defence equipment and major deals include the SCORPENE submarine line and the upgrade of the MIRAGE 2000 fleet. But the counter-offer and its financial implications can create uncertainty for the MMRCA project. And that cannot be good news for the Indian Air Force as the project is already two years behind schedule and other replacement projects such as the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Russia and the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) have also been crawling.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sagar G » 24 Mar 2015 11:10

^^^ This offer has no legal validity and won't be considered. Once the tenders are opened and L1 declared it doesn't matter if the losing one's offer their product even for free. All the negotiations will be carried out with L1 alone and if that fails then it's re-tender only.

Besides if we have to give out money to furreign hands then I choose France rather than the Britshits and Nazis aakthoo. We have better history of co-operating with France and they have given us less trouble that the other two mofos. No deal with Euroshitfighter.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 24 Mar 2015 11:19

It won't be considered as part of the MRCA competition..but there is nothing that prevents the govt. from scrapping the contest and going with a govt.-to-govt. deal. There is nothing illegal about that.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sagar G » 24 Mar 2015 11:24

Illegal w.r.t. MMRCA deal and the ongoing negotiation, besides between Euroshitfighter Baboon and Rafale we already know which one is better so why waste further time dealing with a bunch of cuntries when we are having so many problem dealing with a single one ??? If MMRCA is scrapped then it's Super 30 and LCA mk.2 with FGFA's time line being brought forward.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 24 Mar 2015 11:32

Kartik wrote:It won't be considered as part of the MRCA competition..but there is nothing that prevents the govt. from scrapping the contest and going with a govt.-to-govt. deal. There is nothing illegal about that.


Exactly.. nothing in the world says we can't scrap MMRCA and then go for a Govt to Govt deal for EF. the French can get some Areva reactors and SRSAM or some other compensation so they don't complain too much..not that they deserve it, after the mess they made of the Rafale deal via their wrangling and their pompous behavior during the Kandhamal issue..

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sagar G » 24 Mar 2015 11:38

Karan M wrote:Exactly.. nothing in the world says we can't scrap MMRCA and then go for a Govt to Govt deal for EF. the French can get some Areva reactors and SRSAM or some other compensation so they don't complain too much..not that they deserve it, after the mess they made of the Rafale deal via their wrangling and their pompous behavior during the Kandhamal issue..


Saar what makes you think that the negotiations will be any smoother with the Britshits, Germs and the other euroshit states ??? Do you see the negotiations happening in a shorter time frame than what has been already spent with the French ???

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 24 Mar 2015 11:42

This brings to question the procedure itself, one that IAF claimed should be patented.

If we're still discussing the deal terms 3 years after declaring L1, if the L2 turns out to be cheaper than the L1 (which defeats point of L1 - cheapest for what meets requirements) and if we're not sure what the heck the "life cycle cost" means on which basis the entire L1 was calculated, then it is a botched procurement.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 24 Mar 2015 11:45

Whether it is Rafale or Typhoon or Su-30MKI even, one thing is for sure - present GOI will try to get maximum bang for the buck. And this might not only be in money terms; God knows what concession(s) can and will be had in international relations fora. Overall, good for India.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 24 Mar 2015 11:50

What stopped the Oiro consortium from offering this price before the bids closed? They had two bids one after the after readied for submission based on their intel inputs, but ended up not being able to submit the final updated version. They might still offer a much better package, but if any structural component for the 18 off the shelf planes comes from Turkey, I would be mighty suspicious. They're the original fathers of the Pakis in any case.

If the MoD were the only decision maker, and the IAF requirements were supposedly met by the MKI or Super30 or 35, at a lesser cost, what would be the motivation to invest $12bn in a new type?
Why not invest in the Areva reactors then? And get them to speed up the Scorpenes instead of bind our b@lls as they're doing right now?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 24 Mar 2015 11:51

Sagar G wrote:
Karan M wrote:Exactly.. nothing in the world says we can't scrap MMRCA and then go for a Govt to Govt deal for EF. the French can get some Areva reactors and SRSAM or some other compensation so they don't complain too much..not that they deserve it, after the mess they made of the Rafale deal via their wrangling and their pompous behavior during the Kandhamal issue..


Saar what makes you think that the negotiations will be any smoother with the Britshits, Germs and the other euroshit states ??? Do you see the negotiations happening in a shorter time frame than what has been already spent with the French ???


what is with your language?! Mods please take note and delete this post.

You may not like them but there is no need to use such derogatory language. This isn't Pakistan you're referring to. Grow up.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sagar G » 24 Mar 2015 11:56

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 24 Mar 2015 12:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Poster banned for a week for trolling repeatedly

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 24 Mar 2015 11:57

SajeevJino wrote:
Austin wrote:DM is playing a good mind game with French to get the biggest deal French can dream of , they are squeezing the French on cost as promised in RFP and on the other hand letting the French know there will be cost if they don't stick to their commitment , at this stage GOI has nothing to loose bringing in MKI as alternative and Dassault every thing to loose if they don't keep to their commitment , as far as mmrca goes at least we are in driver seat.

Hope we get the best deal from them.


you mean the latest Su 35 MKI offer

I would satisfy with LCA's Performance but no more Russian piece of Junks


DM mentioned Su-30MKI upgrade as replacement for Rafale.

i suspect Ef and MKI are just side shows to squeeze the french till the last euro they can drop , Parikar said in interview that he would negotiate very hard for any defence deal we can see his words put into action.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Sagar G » 24 Mar 2015 12:03

Austin wrote:i suspect Ef and MKI are just side shows to squeeze the french till the last euro they can drop , Parikar said in interview that he would negotiate very hard for any defence deal we can see his words put into action.


Yes this is what's most probably happening, Rafale will come eventually.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 24 Mar 2015 12:11

...and now knowing what the Eurof*rters have offered,you can be sure that Sukhoi,Boeing,MIG,Saab,etc,will be bringing in their own bargains to muddy the waters further! I'm sure that babudom will be enjoying this classic example of Indian red-tapeworm-ism,rubbing their hands with glee as their may be an opportunity for a further round of byzantine bargaining with firangi manufacturers.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 24 Mar 2015 12:46

DexterM wrote:They might still offer a much better package, but if any structural component for the 18 off the shelf planes comes from Turkey, I would be mighty suspicious. They're the original fathers of the Pakis in any case.


Structural components for the Typhoon coming from Turkey? What're you talking about?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 24 Mar 2015 12:53

Turkey has a well developed aerospace industry that makes parts for the F35 as well

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 24 Mar 2015 13:23

My bad! Since Turkey signed up for the F35, Aselsan and others must be working on F-35 components now!
Kartik, EADS originally proposed a workshare agreement for Turkey as part of the Eurofighter consortium. That obviously didn't work out after 2009/10. But they do have a lot of cos that are involved in a/c manufacture.
Turkish involvement in F-35
Quite deep by the looks of it.
Ayesas currently is the sole source supplier for two major F-35 components – missile remote interface unit and the panoramic cockpit display.

TAI manufactures and assembles the center fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and manufactures fiber placement composite air inlet ducts. Additionally, TAI is strategically manufacturing almost 50 percent of the F-35’s Alternate Mission Equipment (AME) including Air-to-Ground Pylons and adapters.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Kartik » 24 Mar 2015 16:19

Yaar, they were trying to sell the Typhoon to the Turks, but that didn't happen. Obviously if they wanted Turkey to buy a 100 Typhoons, they'd need to offer something, so workshare. But there is nothing on the Typhoon as of today that is built in Turkey. End of discussion.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 24 Mar 2015 16:40

Agreed. So what stopped them from making an offer earlier? There was certainly opportunity when the Govt changed!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Samay » 24 Mar 2015 17:32

There could be 5 or 6 influence groups working in India for this deal, consisting of ex-officers, JV's (offset) middlemen, Mod babus and some politicians of course . Each one not letting this deal to conclude or to end in their favour
these could be :
1) French
2) EF (UK)
3) Rusis
4) Unkil's
5) IAF's own
6) Pukis+Chinis for obvious reasons, and
7) Italians maybe
This deal is taking longer than expected time. Something fishy is going on in this.
May be Mr Doval could do something (remember those spy networks funded by big MNCs that were found operating in different ministries , for ex. a news report about a MMRCA file that was found by some reporters on the road ?).
Only an insider can provide information on whether these negotiations with L-1 is going to end in cancellation of Dasault's offer. In such a case when the contractual obligations cannot be fulfilled by the L1 (as reported by the media) even before procurement is finalised, the frechies are deviating from the terms, the next eligible offer would be that of EF . If that is confirmed only then a counter offer from EADS would be considered, but they are making it now !!
This no question of a re-tender as it takes time, while technological input in the aircraft changes, and who knows the SQR might be different now?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby abhik » 24 Mar 2015 19:04

Not that I'm supporting it but, the said EF offer may well be acceptable within the framework of the MRCA. The government just needs to say that the French fudged their numbers to get L1. It was initially reported that the price difference was only about 5 million USD per plane which would mean the bids were pretty close.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 24 Mar 2015 19:56

New tribune from IAF corporation pushing for Rafales :

Get those Rafales, quick

Defence takes up a sizeable package of public expenditure that rightfully draws a strong debate on its modernisation. Big-ticket items do raise interesting views in the debate. The acquisition of a Russian aircraft carrier for the Navy caused quite a stir after the unprecedented price escalation cost the country a bomb. Next on the list is the proposed acquisition of Rafale fighter jets, which would be the most expensive purchase to date.

Cost is not the only concern; there appears to be a discomfort in taking decisions, which has led to extraordinary delays. India may well be creating a poor impression of its decision-making process. Fortunately, the country has a sharp-minded IIT graduate as defence minister, who is known for taking clear decisions, and we hope that the dust would settle down quickly.

Rafale is certainly a much-needed addition to the Indian Air Force. During the Kargil conflict, only Mirage 2000 had the capability to deliver a precision-guided bomb accurately on Tiger Hill, putting to rest the criticisms over its acquisition. We have ensured that its special features are embodied on the light combat aircraft and Su-30MKI.
Rafale would have better and wider capabilities in all weather. While speed and manoeuvrability are important traits of a combat aircraft, the demand in modern times is for flexibility of role while in air.
The 'swing role' fighter could carry a variety of weapons and sensors and be able to engage targets in air, on ground or at sea on a single mission. Rafale can perform 'swing role' functions though it may predominantly remain a multi-role combat aircraft (like Su-30MKI) that is configured on ground for specific missions prior to take-off. It promises more effective delivery, improved availability and longer technical life than any other machine in the current inventory. There is excellent scope to improve the Su-30MKI, which was designed 20 years ago, indigenously since it is being produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The Air Force, for long, has been working on regaining its squadron strength. It may not be such an urgent need but would possibly be a projection for the future. The Air Force may be short on squadrons but in terms of firepower, it has four times the strength it had two decades ago when it had around 40 squadrons.

EACH Su-30MKI (more than 250 of them) has at least four times the potential of an old MiG-21 FL. What is important is 'operational availability'. Effective management follows good planning to ensure maximum availability and a systematic repair/ overhaul line.

It would not be a good idea to get new machines if the old ones are awaiting repair in the hangar. However, numbers are important to mount effective operations. Experienced air forces plan for 'high-low mix'. For India, a combination of LCA and Su-30MKI/ Rafale would make the low-high mix. Proportionately, low would be in larger number (low does not mean lack of sophistication but a lower level of ordnance carriage and range, and a limited role).

For a 'swing role' fighter to be effective, an advanced communication network, excellent real-time intelligence and a well-delegated and effective decision-making body are required. With the induction of multi-role combat aircraft, we expect to procure more advanced missiles, weapons and sensors.
[...]


http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... Id=-225861

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arthuro » 24 Mar 2015 19:59

Amid stalled fighter projects, upgraded Mirage cheers IAF

NEW DELHI: Faced with huge delays in clinching new fighter projects even as it grapples with fast-eroding air combat power, IAF finally has some reason to cheer. The force will get its first two upgraded Mirage-2000 fighters with new avionics and weapons this week.

The defence ministry says France will hand over the two "almost new" Mirage fighters to the project management teams of IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) on March 25. "Our teams are in Istres to take the delivery. The next two jets will be upgraded by HAL in India with French assistance," said an official.

The remaining 47 Mirages, which were first inducted by India in the mid-1980s, will then be progressively souped up by HAL with technology transfer from France under the overall Rs 17,547 crore programme finalized in 2011-2012.

"The upgraded Mirages have been stripped down and virtually re-built with state-of-the-art avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and long-range missiles. IAF will be able to operate them for another 15-20 years," the official added.

India has gone in for a mix of upgrades and inductions like Sukhoi-30MKIs - IAF has till now inducted 200 of the 272 Russian fighters contracted for over $12 billion -- to maintain its operational readiness against China and Pakistan.

But it continues to take a big hit with the delay in new fighter projects, even as the obsolete MiG fleets are being progressively retired. As reported earlier by TOI, both the $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 French Rafale fighters and the $25 billion one for 127 Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) are still nowhere near being clinched.

"The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft project is also running years behind schedule. Numbers do eventually matter. IAF should ideally have 44 fighter squadrons, instead of the 34 it is currently has," said an officer.

The Mirage upgrade project, under which India has inked two separate contracts, itself has faced flak for being so expensive. The first upgrade programme was finalized at Rs 10,947 crore with French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer) and Thales (weapons systems integrator) in July 2011.

The second Rs 6,600 crore contract for 490 advanced fire-and-forget MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the Mirages was finalized with French armament major MBDA in early-2012.

In effect, each upgraded Mirage will cost Rs 345 crore. This when the last batch of Mirages bought by India in 2000 cost Rs 133 crore apiece. Moreover, it will take HAL almost a decade to upgrade all the fighters.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 657297.cms

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 25 Mar 2015 00:47

Well, one thing about the EF - as an outright A2A bird, it has some serious fire power with the Meteor + largish Captor ESA plus the semi recessed pylons, and yes - excellent thrust too. Would have been interesting if the EJ 200 had been chosen for the LCA.

Anyways, Namo will be visiting both France and Germany in April, might help if they put French trip before the other - sort of pressurize the seller some more - "there is always the Typhoon in case you are too high and mighty".

But, I think the Rafale will make it to IAF stable.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Vipul » 26 Mar 2015 04:25

Airbus Group to sell a further 15 per cent stake in Dassault.

Airbus Group today said that it would sell a further 15-per cent stake in Rafale combat jet maker Dassault Aviation, as part of its plan to monetise its 16 year-old stake.

Airbus, a partner in the Eurofighter consortium, plans to sell approximately 1.38 million shares following a book-built offering to Dassault and institutional investors at a maximum price of €980 per share.

The sale will see Airbus' stake drop to around 27 per cent from 42 percent.The French State has opted not to exercise its right of first refusal under the shareholder agreement with Airbus Group.

Upon completion of the placement, Airbus Group said that it will hold up to around 27 per cent of Dassault Aviation's share capital and associated voting rights and will agree to a 180-day lock up for its remaining shares of Dassault Aviation.

The sale comes just four months after Airbus sold around 4.3 per cent of its 46.3-per cent stake in the fighter jet maker back to the group's controlling family for €794 million.

Airbus, which now focuses on making commercial planes, has been under pressure from shareholders to sell its Dassault stake after being forced to acquire it in order to protect the French state's interests in a strategically important company.

With the French government's influence over Airbus weakening, the company declared last year that its Dassault holding is no longer ''strategic''.

Dassault Aviation's parent company Groupe Industriel Marcel Dassault holds around 55-per cent stake in Dassault, while the rest is publicly held.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_22539 » 26 Mar 2015 06:21

^Seems like the Rafale deal is not happening after all.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 26 Mar 2015 10:05

Why can't Reliance buy this stake up? They're buying up all manner of def. cos these days! :rotfl:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Mar 2015 10:57

We can expect lot of pro Rafale articles from paid media till the France trip is over.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 26 Mar 2015 22:02

Indian Mirage 2000 Upgrade Paves Way For Rafale Signing, Say French

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... say-french

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 27 Mar 2015 01:28

^^^From the article above it states that HAL only has the capacity to upgrade 4 Mirage-2000 per year and it will take HAL 12 years to complete the upgrade. However, the Mirage-2000 will be phased out in 2030 - only two years after the last upgrade. It is a bad situation as it states that 12 Mirage-2000 are at HAL for 2nd line maintenance and others are being cannibalized for operational bases.

To me it shows the poor state of readiness at the IAF.

NRao
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 27 Mar 2015 02:43

Each batch of four is expected to last 15 years.

So the last batch, 12 years from now, will be around 12 + 15 = 27 years from now.

The two they accepted this year will be retired in 2030.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 27 Mar 2015 08:59

Like I said Rafale will happen but will take time , the last mile is always the hardest to walk

Dassault: Work on India Rafale Sale 95% Done 8)

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... 80476/%29*
The deal to purchase 126 Rafales is now "95 percent completed," with the French company working with the Indian authorities to review thousands of contract pages, Trappier said Wednesday, Agence France-Presse reported.

Trappier was speaking at Istres, southern France, as Dassault and Thales handed over the first two upgraded Mirage 2000 fighters to the Indian Air Force. The modernization deal, reported by La Tribune to be worth €1.4 billion (US $1.5 billion), is for 51 fighters.

"I would like to go faster [but] it is an enormous contract," Trappier said. "As I have said before, I prefer that we are taking our time now … rather than have problems later."

Dassault looks to its 60-year ties with India, forged with the company's sale of the Ouragan fighter in 1953, to help close a deal on the Rafale.

"India is Dassault Aviation's first export client and the historical relationship we nurtured with the Indian Air Force has spanned 60 years, growing from strength to strength," Trappier said in a statement.

"The Rafale is the next logical step," he said.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 27 Mar 2015 10:39

Opinion: Dassault May Have To Change Its Focus


http://aviationweek.com/defense/opinion ... -its-focus

This year, Dassault Aviation is scheduled to deliver one Falcon business jet—or more—per week to customers around the world. In contrast, a maximum of 11 Rafale fighters will be produced, including three for Egypt. Statistics like these confirm that the French group is no longer a major military player. However, the situation could change rapidly if export contracts currently being discussed become firm. India is planning to order 126 Rafales, including 26 to be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. Potential short-term customers include Qatar.

The 11 Rafales being built this year represent the bare minimum needed to keep the final assembly line alive. The customer’s goal is to gradually replace seven aircraft types with one all-encompassing aircraft to harmonize the inventory and cut operational costs. By opting for this route, the French government has reached a position where it wants Dassault to compete on the export market against the U.S., Russia and other nations—but at the same time it has hindered the Rafale’s export potential.

This is why the manufacturer encountered difficulties in concluding its first orders abroad. The Rafale, to some extent, is too sophisticated and expensive.

But that is not the only problem Dassault faces. Government budget constraints have taken a severe toll on the military procurement plan, jeopardizing the nation’s ambitious defense strategy. The air force now operates fewer aircraft than ever while multiple overseas operations—in distant countries such as Mali—are mounting.

In other words, President Francois Hollande’s political ambitions have perhaps become so extensive and expensive that they are creating a complex problem within the defense industry. Dassault, which was a top player in the 1970s with its Mirage air-superiority fighter and attack aircraft, is now restricted to a one-aircraft-type candidate. Moreover, no national program is being planned post-Rafale.

The Dassault Neuron—an experimental stealth unmanned combat air vehicle—is no more than a European technology demonstrator. It could be followed by an Anglo-French unmanned aerial vehicle involving a relatively modest workload for production facilities that now devote most of their military business to the Rafale. Ultimately, Dassault could be relegated to the role of civil aircraft maker.

No such plan is being contemplated at this stage, but company executives may have no other option. Many years ago, long before the low-cost concept was in play, preliminary studies considered the merits of a “cheap” fighter based on the Super Etendard—a carrier jet. But the idea produced little interest, mostly because Dassault did not fully grasp the potential of such a market.

Dassault, a highly profitable company, has another option—using company funds to develop an all-new aircraft that could open new market opportunities. Inspiration could come from the U.S. Textron group: It recently created jointly with AirLand Enterprises the Scorpion light attack and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) jet aircraft. The Scorpion is expected to cost $3,000 or so per flight hour to operate, in contrast with as much as $24,000 for in-production fighters. However, although a possible submission to the air force is being considered, no request for proposals has been mentioned at this point.

In the next few years, Dassault will have to either mold itself into a purely civil player or adopt a new strategy to stay in the military game.


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby prahaar » 27 Mar 2015 10:56

Reading the above story, Gen.VKS statement, of why not buy a stake in the company rather than just import the aircraft, does not sound outlandish.


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