Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby arshyam » 12 Apr 2015 21:20

amitkv wrote:Meanwhile, French press.
Image

Interesting contrast to the coverage he received when visiting the US. So much for the Indo-U.S. strategic partnership - no one on the ground really cares.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ramana » 12 Apr 2015 21:21

I think of Live fist as Dead Hand.

So its Nitin Gokhale who broke the news. I wanted to know if any had envisioned such a step.

Reason is Shukla was pretending he knew it and also the French press!!!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby chaanakya » 12 Apr 2015 21:24

Why do we need MSM to tell us what NaMo did in France and how many Rafale he requested when we have this from horse's mouth.

PMO India retweeted
Syed Akbaruddin @MEAIndia · Apr 10

Have requested 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible - PM @narendramodi

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 12 Apr 2015 21:39

Nitin Gokhale does not indulge in speculation or 'he-said, she-said' kind of arguments. Seems to have strong network within the army and known to present a more factual and nuanced view of situations. He was the first one to give an accurate assessment of flare-up in Demchok. Has been pretty consistent in terms of formations raised and progress thereof.

His book on Siachen which deals with the history of how the Ops came about, is a must have and for keeps. Very detailed account with interviews with participants in the original assault to secure Siachen.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby JTull » 12 Apr 2015 23:54

The order for 36 Rafale should halt the Euro canard and Russian/Sukhoi lobbying for some time atleast.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 13 Apr 2015 00:02

RV, so the Siachen book was good? Any new details

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Apr 2015 01:10

The order for 36 Rafale should halt the Euro canard and Russian/Sukhoi lobbying for some time atleast.


Wonder how this impacts the PAK-FA. India was pushing for an early delivery of that plane too.

Now with 126+36, would that impact that decision?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 13 Apr 2015 01:10

The order for 36 Rafale should halt the Euro canard and Russian/Sukhoi lobbying for some time atleast.


Wonder how this impacts the PAK-FA. India was pushing for an early delivery of that plane too.

Now with 126+36, would that impact that decision?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_29004 » 13 Apr 2015 01:24

108+36, not 126+36 as far as i know.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 13 Apr 2015 03:18

Obviously Dassault has no faith in HAL. Why would they, considering HAL's track record. But can someone please educate me on the following;

- Can HAL not send a sizeable team to the production line at Dassault to study (in depth) how the Rafale is manufactured? To me this is a win-win situation for everyone. Dassault controls the production quality of the aircraft she builds at her factory and HAL gets to study the latest in aircraft manufacturing. If Dassault builds composites using hi-tech machines (while HAL does it by hand), get the GOI/HAL to buy the machine (heck...isn't that why Dassault is charging an arm & a leg to build Katrina in India anyway) and bring it back home. Use the lessons learnt at Dassault to build the LCA and AMCA and so on.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Apr 2015 04:22

Rakesh wrote:Obviously Dassault has no faith in HAL. Why would they, considering HAL's track record. But can someone please educate me on the following;

- Can HAL not send a sizeable team to the production line at Dassault to study (in depth) how the Rafale is manufactured? To me this is a win-win situation for everyone. Dassault controls the production quality of the aircraft she builds at her factory and HAL gets to study the latest in aircraft manufacturing. If Dassault builds composites using hi-tech machines (while HAL does it by hand), get the GOI/HAL to buy the machine (heck...isn't that why Dassault is charging an arm & a leg to build Katrina in India anyway) and bring it back home. Use the lessons learnt at Dassault to build the LCA and AMCA and so on.


Problem with PSU's like Air India, Ashoka hotels, and HAL, is their mismanagement. They are over governed and unable to deliver.
Now Dassault has comitted purchase some 2 billion dollars worth of stuff from Indian companies. This will lay the foundation of a diverse manufacturing industry.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kmkraoind » 13 Apr 2015 09:04

Rakesh wrote: manufacturing. If Dassault builds composites using hi-tech machines (while HAL does it by hand), get the GOI/HAL to buy the machine (heck...isn't that why Dassault is charging an arm & a leg to build Katrina in India anyway) and bring it back home.


Cannot we prod a willing and sincere medium/big private company to buy up composite machine from France and with a promise that GoI will buy a fixed amount of that composites that will be used in Rafale, AMCA and others.

Even give permission to that company that it can sell those composites to other defence private companies and to domestic companies. If it remains in HAL control, private players find it chaotic to buy composites from a govt company.

Since its a private company, they can hire best talent and retain with higher perks. They can do incremental upgrades with their own R&D. It will be even good, if some of ex-employees gets inspired and start their own small companies.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby jayaaren » 13 Apr 2015 09:50

Surprising no one has come out stronger against SS for the I Will Go To Court thing. Seems he was out of the news cycle and now wants to be back in. Might I venture to help SS see the light:
Egypt wants the Rafale, 24 to be precise
Canada wants the Rafale over the F35
Kuwait is looking at the Rafale, 18-22
Qatar wants the Rafale over F/A-18 E/F, F-15E, Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35
UAE wants the Rafale, 60 and this over the Eurofighter Typhoon, F/A-18 E/F
Malaysia wants the Rafale, 36-40 and this over Eurofighter Typhoon, F/A-18 E/F, Saab JAS39 Gripen

Now for places where Rafale lost out:
Brazil chose the Saab Gripen NG over the Rafale but also over F/A-18 E/F, F-16, SU-35, Eurofighter Typhoon
Switzerland chose the Saab Gripen NG over the Rafale but also over Eurofighter Typhoon
South Korea chose the F-15K over the Rafale but also over Eurofighter Typhoon & SU-35
Only in Singapore was it on a 1-on-1 against the F-15SG

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2015 10:41

IBN -

Hollande to hold high-level meeting today over Rafale jets sale to India
Press Trust of India

Paris/New Delhi: French President Francois Hollande would chair a high-level meeting in Paris on Monday to thrash out the finer details of the nearly $5 billion deal for the sale of 36 Rafale jets to India in flyaway conditions.

French sources said the meeting at the Elysee Palace would be held between Hollande, his top officials and executives from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of the Rafale jets.


Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who concluded his four-day visit to France on Sunday, had asked the country to supply 36 Rafale jets in flyaway conditions as soon as possible in view of the critical operational necessity of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The deal would be between the two governments.

Modi had asked France to supply 36 Rafale jets in flyaway conditions as soon as possible.

"There was nobody, either from Indian side or the French side, when the two leaders spoke about the Rafale. Everyone would be briefed in detail on Monday about what transpired and discussions would be held on how it can be taken forward," sources said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said that the 36 Rafale fighter jets would be inducted into the IAF in two years. Sources said that two years is a fair time as a final contract needs to be negotiated and signed while production of planes will also take time.

The capacity of the Dassault plant is 36 aircraft per anum and the Indian version of the aircraft will have to be fine-tuned as per its requirement.

"The French already have an order from Egypt for 24 Rafale jets which has to be also delivered as soon as possible" sources said, pointing out that specific timelines will have to be worked out.

One of the options that is being looked at is putting on hold the order for the French military and diverting them to meet India's immediate requirements.

Another issue that will come up for discussion is the pricing and also if the French government will be providing a tax holiday or some other concession to Dassault to bring down the prices of the aircraft for India.


Modi and Hollande had agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway, which is the MMRCA tender.

The delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF and the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, a joint statement had said.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 13 Apr 2015 10:55

Ramana,we've been speculating for about 6 months that one option for the MMRCA deal to be clinched was to drop the TOT angle,due to Dassault's stubborn anti-HAL-built-plane attitude and the huge cost escalation. An outright buy at lower unit cost was an option that many on BR preferred,though the outright dumping of the deal on the cost factor had greater voice..The only Q about this option was how many aircraft? 2 sqds seemed to be affordable,but have you noticed that the cost of the deal has gone up by $1B in one day?! The cost in the media today is $5B not $4B as was earlier quoted.

The IAF compromised on the numbers only to get its hands on the French filly it was always lusting after.It has a love affair with France.Extra Rafales will definitely arrive later on,perhaps another G-to-G deal for another 36. Incremental deals at the rate of about $5B for "extras" will not attract as much controversy as the initial confirmation of it. Here the IAF/GOI is on strong ground,the aircraft having been chosen the winner based upon tech-cum-cost evaluation. What seems to have been the clincher was France's guarantee that an almost immediate (2yrs says DM MP) transfer of the aircraft would be made to help plug the gap in the IAF's declining numbers. THis same tactic appears to be on the anvil for the FGFA,with the IAF/GOI wanting that aircraft to be in service before 2020 (36 months),with the definitive desi version decided upon later.

So the GOI/IAF are going to take piecemeal decisions ,(just buy extras of aircraft in service) a "more of the same please" policy when the occasion or urgency demands, rather than taking a holistic overall view of the order of battle for the next two decades.

PS:General media editorial comments are in favour of the deal ,but with the Q,what has happened to the "make in India" mantra? here's just one edit.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150413/n ... afale-game
France wins over India in Rafale game
DC | Sridhar Kumaraswami | April 13, 2015,

Paris/New Delhi: It’s Advantage France as Paris seems to have won the battle of nerves with New Delhi over its acquisition of Rafale fighter jets. The decision by France’s Dassault, the Rafale’s manufacturer, to stand firm on its reservations on some aspects of the MMRCA global tender terms, seems to have paid off since India’s decision to separately buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in “flyaway” condition (off-the-shelf) will mean that there will be no technology transfer in this acquisition, thus raising question marks on the “Make in India” initiative.

Also, with this announcement, the MMRCA tender seems to have lost much of its immediate relevance, and the three-year-old contract negotiations are likely to further drag on.

Though the IAF is relieved it will get new fighters at last, New Delhi’s decision shows how much India still depends on direct foreign armament and equipment imports to maintain defence preparedness.

Sources said in the three year-long protracted contract negotiations between India and Dassault, that continued in the past 10 months of the Modi government, both sides had refused to budge on what they perceived as their viewpoints on the terms and conditions of the MMRCA tender. Dassault, initially, had reservations on the role of state-run HAL as lead integrator for the 108 Rafale aircraft to be built in India under technology transfer from France, had the MMRCA RFP acquisition process finally gone through.

French sources told this newspaper that Dassault could not be held responsible if there was any delay in timelines for manufacture on the part of HAL. There were also reportedly some concerns raised on accountability. There were earlier reports of some differences between India and Dassault over the pricing of the deal, which could have been pegged at around $20 billion. The MMRCA RFP had stipulated that only 18 of the proposed 126 fighters would be acquired in “flyaway” condition.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar had also insisted Dassault must fully adhere to the terms of the MMRCA RFP, issued back in 2007.

India perhaps assumed that sooner or later, the French would be desperate enough to come around in order to bag the multi-billion dollar deal.

But in the end, it was “critical operational necessity” that compelled India to go in for a separate government-to-government agreement.

High-level meet in Paris today over Rafale sale

French President Francois Hollande would chair a high-level meeting in Paris on Monday to thrash out the finer details of the nearly $5 billion deal for the sale of 36 Rafale jets to India in flyaway conditions.

French sources said the meeting at the Elysee Palace would be held between Hollande, his top officials and executives from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of the Rafale jets.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi had asked France to supply 36 Rafale jets in flyaway conditions as soon as possible in view of the critical operational necessity of the IAF.

“There was nobody, either from Indian side or the French side, when the two leaders spoke about the Rafale. Everyone would be briefed in detail on Monday about what transpired and discussions would be held on how it can be taken forward,” sources said.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 13 Apr 2015 12:05

France had a better grip on the ground realities in india than say the inter communications and understanding between the IAF,MOD and PMO. They had analyzed India would come their way , so kept on with their stance.That how "intelligence" works doesn't it ..economic or defense the one who knows the other cards would win !

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 13 Apr 2015 12:47

Kit you may be spot on here as just before Mr.Modi's visit to Paris came the news about the orders for Egypt,etc.,a few sqds.for certain nations,a possible "nudge" that the GOI follow/consider following in the same direction !

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20453 » 13 Apr 2015 13:43

well I for one am happy about the direct buy, we were wasting too much time, 36 fighters to be delivered in the next 2-3 years is fine as long as we get F-4 version. I am happy for the IAF, it gets 1 of the 2 aircrafts it likes and wants to have. In the mean time we can perhaps to have more money on hand and sort out the local production mess. If we can begin local production by 2019, should be fine. We can even order another squadron of 18 to add to the 36, taking the number to 54 as flyaway birds. With no reliable confirmed timelines for the PAKFA/AMCA, I see the Rafale being ordered more. I don't think the local production deal will end with 108, it will be cheaper to build more. I think the final number of Rafale to be operated will be around 180 for IAF, 10 sqds is a good number. Perhaps even the IN can buy around 2 sqds, 40 Rafale-M for the INS Vishal, this will take the entire number to 220, the last 40 being delivered with-in INS Vishal timelines.

In the mean time, I hope we order around 54 more LCA MK-1s, 2 sqds for IAF and 1 for IN as LIFT trainers, If IAF keeps refusing to use the MK-1 as a front line fighter, at the very least they can use it a as a LIFT Trainer. With increasing number of Naval fighters, it would be great for IN to have a Sqd too. LCA Mk-1 is the ideal LIFT trainer at the very least, it would vastly improve our pilots' training while introducing high speed supersonic flight, high G maneuvering, advanced attack/evasive tactics, advanced dogfight tactics, A2A Refueling, Low level flight, ECM, SEAD/DEAD, Escorting etc. etc.

I propose the following training regime:

Stage-1 "Basic" on PC-7/HAL HTT-40 - currently 65 hrs to be changed to 60 flying hours, 20 hrs in Simulators

Stage-2 "Intermediate" training on Kiran aircraft & eventually IJT currently 82 hrs to be changed to - 80 flying hours, 40 hrs in Sims

Stage-3 "Advanced"on Hawk AJTs - 107 flying hours currently, should be changed to 80 hrs, 40 hrs in sims

Stage-4 "Application of Training concepts" on LCA MK-1 LIFT trainer - 60 flying hrs, 20 hrs in sims

In effect, rookie pilots will then log 260 hours of actual flying up from 254, apart from simulator training. Not a big difference in over-all hrs but by cutting back hrs in the hawk and increasing the time on the Tejas, a rookie would have spend a good amount of time in a high end supersonic fighter.

Now, the key things are for DRDO to speed of dev/testing of key weapons systems, we can certainly avoid a ton of weapons purchase expenses if we can over the next 2 years successfully finalize the Astra mk-1/2 80-110km range, successfully field Sudarshan LGBs, Light weight stand off glide weapon 130-150 km (show as AI-15), 1000Kg glide Bomb 100 km recently tested, light weight cruise missile 280km (shown at AI-15), and from day 1 to design & integrate the Brahmos-M on the Rafale. I also think, Nirbhay should be deployed on the Rafale. We also need to order 1000 or more CBU-105 SFW with local assembly, this will cause some serious shivering in Chi-Pak circles. DRDO should also quickly field the secretive ARM asap as we need a proper SEAD/DEAD weapon.

Idea should be to start the process of integrating these weapons on the Rafale as soon as they land. While relying on exiting weapons stocks of PGMs, MICAs till local weapons go active. For the eventual large fleet of Rafale, we need to rely on massive stocks of local weapons.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby sum » 13 Apr 2015 13:57

kit wrote:France had a better grip on the ground realities in india than say the inter communications and understanding between the IAF,MOD and PMO. They had analyzed India would come their way , so kept on with their stance.That how "intelligence" works doesn't it ..economic or defense the one who knows the other cards would win !

^^ +1.

I believe this is a major coup for French intelligence

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Paul » 13 Apr 2015 14:00

ISRO scandal of 80s in RGs time comes to mind. Yes, this is a major victory for the French. Govt should take note and tighten up North Block Ministries.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vinod » 13 Apr 2015 14:12

kit wrote:France had a better grip on the ground realities in india than say the inter communications and understanding between the IAF,MOD and PMO. They had analyzed India would come their way , so kept on with their stance.That how "intelligence" works doesn't it ..economic or defense the one who knows the other cards would win !


Well, if press could gain access to our ministries so easily, all they had to do was walk up to an mod official pay money and get the docs. Isn't that what was happening in UPA ministries?

My question is, did French lose the big prize? don't they lose out billions if they hold out like this and India ends up not buying the remaining planes from France?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby nits » 13 Apr 2015 14:48

The benefits of having a Gujarati prime minister

Narendra Modi knows how to calculate and remain pragmatic.

Take the unexpected Rafale deal -- perhaps the first time a PM has considered the country's defence procurement as a priority, over the considerations of the babus' and over his own 'Make in India' project,' says Claude Arpi. A French friend who had closely followed the Rafale saga told me: "This guy (Modi) is a genie.' In a few hours, with just a few advisors, he managed to fix a deal out of an inextricable situation; and for all the parties involved (one could say, first and foremost for the IAF), this appears a win-win solution.

Modi's 'Make in India' scheme was the only loser; however, the next day in Toulouse, the Airbus chairman pledged $2 billon to 'Make in India'; the programme continues in other ways.

The 'oxygen' provided by the 36 planes should give enough time to Delhi (and Paris) to devise a more feasible scheme for the balance aircraft.

The Gujarati businessman/PM knows how to calculate and first and foremost, he remains pragmatic, while keeping India's highest interests in mind.

Nevertheless, the tragedy remains that India has lost 14 years to reach this decision to buy planes 'off-the-shelf' with the cost escalation involved.

Hopefully a lesson for next time?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 13 Apr 2015 15:26

Modi did some out of box thinking ..India needs france and vice versa .. some quid pro quo has to come in a deal ..give some take some ..hopefully IAF learns its lessons and get involved in R & D with DRDO and private sector ..and i think ..most importantly not to think about this deal in isolation ..there is more to Indo French relations than just Rafale ..or there should be ..that was what Modi tying to say ..and hopefully the French understand ! They could get involved in india in a big way when there is a pragmatic administration keen on taking this forward


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Prasad » 13 Apr 2015 17:43

Vishal Thapar @thaparvishal · 32m 32 minutes ago
FLASH: #36Rafale @manoharparrikar: MMRCA tender to be scrapped. Entire Rafale procurement in government-to-government deal 1/N
@manoharparrikar hints Rafale numbers to be below 126. Only 36 flyaway imports. Options open on Make in India.HAL costs were a problem
@manoharparrikar: HAL's manpower reqt ratio of 2.7:1 (visavis OEM) high,driving up costs Details on Make in India in 2 months
42 combat squadrons for IAF a target, but have to manage with less. Costs for 126 Rafales a "steep slope

MMRCA tender's slipped into vortex.36 flyaway Rafales.May decide diff no for Make in India Rafales. Options open


Well thats that. A decisive decision taken within one year of assuming power. Thats a good job I think.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 13 Apr 2015 17:46

High Level Meeting Tomorrow over Rafale Sale to India

First reference (that I have come across) for the cost of the deal being closer to $5 Billion.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Apr 2015 17:48

So what it means the Rafale deal would be a Government to Government Order hence forth , No different than Su-30 or C-17 deal

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 13 Apr 2015 17:50

I would prefer that the MOD had a press meet and divulge whatever info could be provided with at an official meet."Twittering",frankly is too informal and for "Twits" and self-centered like one S,Tharoor of "cattle class" fame. This is a major decision involving billions of $$$,which has been hanging fire for sev. years,it deserves a full explanation,not brief twittering.

A press meet gives gravitas to the decision and also respects the members of the 4th estate. An official spokesman (or the political bigwig) must be present to also answer questions about his press release.
The system used by the US pres. with official White House press releases/meets is the best way in which the people/country get their info directly from the top leadership. In India especially,not everyone has a twitter acct!

PS:Exactly! In the space of one day the cost went up by $1B. That's $135-140M/aircraft,exactly the cost our DM MP said,"double the cost of an MKI".So where is the significant cost discount ?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 13 Apr 2015 17:53

PS:Exactly! In the space of one day the cost went up by $1B. That's $135-140M/aircraft,exactly the cost our DM MP said,"double the cost of an MKI".So where is the significant cost discount ?


The cost hasn't gone up by 1 Billion in the space of a few days. The reporting has now claimed a different cost. Reporters are obviously trying to get as much information out of folks in France and New Delhi and sometimes one publication may claim a cost that may not be realistic or factually correct. For all we know the cost could still be 4 Billion, or it could have been 5 Billion all along and was being reported wrongly as 4 Billion. It could also be the case that the $5 Billion cost involves some weapons. Until there is an official statement we only know that the reporters estimate the cost to be between 4 Billion (french press) and 5 Billion (Economic times).

If the Tweets are accurate then they are either looking at a Joint venture between Dassault and Reliance (what dassault always wanted) for a Make in India Rafale, or an outright purchase of another 30 odd fighters and calling quits once that previously reported 63 figure is reached.
Last edited by brar_w on 13 Apr 2015 17:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Apr 2015 17:53

I suspect they would limit the number of Rafale to around 60 and would go for more MKI

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 13 Apr 2015 17:57

Is the 36 final? All I have seen is an expression of *deep* interest. Not saying it wont happen but that it is too early to discuss cost per unit.

That will now open the field for Tejas MK1

1. Single engined
2. Cost
3. Make in India
Last edited by pankajs on 13 Apr 2015 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 13 Apr 2015 18:03

brar_w wrote:
PS:Exactly! In the space of one day the cost went up by $1B. That's $135-140M/aircraft,exactly the cost our DM MP said,"double the cost of an MKI".So where is the significant cost discount ?


The cost hasn't gone up by 1 Billion in the space of a few days. The reporting has now claimed a different cost. Reporters are obviously trying to get as much information out of folks in France and New Delhi and sometimes one publication may claim a cost that may not be realistic or factually correct. For all we know the cost could still be 4 Billion, or it could have been 5 Billion all along and was being reported wrongly as 4 Billion. It could also be the case that the $5 Billion cost involves some weapons. Until there is an official statement we only know that the reporters estimate the cost to be between 4 Billion (french press) and 5 Billion (Economic times).

If the Tweets are accurate then they are either looking at a Joint venture between Dassault and Reliance (what dassault always wanted) for a Make in India Rafale, or an outright purchase of another 30 odd fighters and calling quits once that previously reported 63 figure is reached.



@ brar ..how will Reliance "make" Rafael at less expense than HAL ? ..full scale assembly of knocked down kits ?! I suspect that what Dassault wants !!

DexterM
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 13 Apr 2015 18:07

If MMRCA is scrapped, what stops India from approaching the Eurofighter consortium for a favourably priced offer? What if they can offer the EJ2000 for the AMCA at better rates - why go through the farce of another engine tender and hold the design to ransom when we can wrap up detail design in 2 more years instead of 5!

NaMo in Germany may find HDW better placed for 75i and hand them a contract for strategic gains on the US Sec Council /sarc.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 13 Apr 2015 18:13

If MMRCA is scrapped, what stops India from approaching the Eurofighter consortium for a favourably priced offer? What if they can offer the EJ2000 for the AMCA at better rates - why go through the farce of another engine tender and hold the design to ransom when we can wrap up detail design in 2 more years instead of 5!


Other than the fact that he has announced the intention to buy the Rafale, and no one really thinks he or the MOD are going back on this. Does the IAF really want to be in a position where it operates 30-60 Rafales and 30-60 Typhoons?

@ brar ..how will Reliance "make" Rafael at less expense than HAL ? ..full scale assembly of knocked down kits ?! I suspect that what Dassault wants !!


I have absolutely no idea. What i make of the tweet is that if the MRCA is being scrapped the most likely reason is because there are things that are things within the negotiations that are unlikely to be fully agreed upon mutually. So if you unshackle dassault from the MRCA there is really nothing stopping them from choosing to exercise "MAKE IN INDIA" with the rafale by partnering with a company that it wanted to partner with all along.

The carrot for Dassualt in all this is obviously the chance to sell follow on's and the long term support and upgrade.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srin » 13 Apr 2015 18:21



Absolutely the right call. This was a time bomb set by the UPA Govt and it had the potential to be another Bofors. I saw this articleon Stratpost just the day before this was announced. Apparently, only under exceptional conditions (none of which apply to this deal) can you have price negotiation after declaring L1 (which makes sense). And by cancelling it - the corruption issue goes out of window. The IAF technical evaluation stays - so we could have gone with either EF and Raffy. Govt chose Raffy.

Anyway, kudos to the DM - dodged a bullet and also ensured IAF doesn't suffer in short-term.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 13 Apr 2015 18:22

Continuing on my previous post ....

They way the deal for the 36 is being talked about I suspect Modi gave the French president a per unit cost (Say 10% below the MMRCA quoted unit price) and asked him to make it work.

That sounds like a *commitment* on a certain number of a specific config/spec at a certain price point. So unless that matrix is satisfied the 36 too could vanish. OTOH, if the matrix is met we might even see the deal expand perhaps leading to local production in India post 2020.

Added later > The kickback in such deals range from 5-10% of the overall cost. So asking for a 10% discount will squeeze the manufacturer and the corrupt involved in India. By getting the discount NaMo will ensure that he is never tarred by the deal no matter what the previous arrangements.
Last edited by pankajs on 13 Apr 2015 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 13 Apr 2015 18:35

Production in India by whom? Dassault have no confidence in HAL,then by the "R" crowd?

The "R" factor ,if it surfaces in any way in this deal,is going to be a potential Bofors in the future.The "R" co. have absolutely no track record in the aviation industry and are best known as political fixers par excellence when it comes to protecting their interests and elbowing out their rivals. Their arrival on the scene of this deal was during the UPA-2 phase of the deal. Unlike companies like L&T,etc,who are engineering giants,engaged in supplying the services with a variety of def. eqpt. for decades,the "R" co. is the equivalent of a "money in the bank" WWE brigand!

How Dassult will be able to convince anyone that they can build the Rafale better than HAL beats me,unless a wholly new Dassault entity/manufacturing unit is set up in a JV with "R" in India,which would be the beginning of the end of HAL.That would be the thin end of the wedge.A whole succession of aircraft,helos,etc., would later on flow out from this entity and perhaps even HAL would one day end up being pvtly owned!

One eagerly awaits the details to be officially announced.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby geeth » 13 Apr 2015 18:45

It could be a joint venture company with 50/50 stake between Dassault / HAL and all together different work culture..just speculating.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 13 Apr 2015 18:45

Philip wrote:How Dassult will be able to convince anyone that they can build the Rafale better than HAL beats me,unless a wholly new Dassault entity/manufacturing unit is set up in a JV with "R" in India,which would be the beginning of the end of HAL.That would be the thin end of the wedge.A whole succession of aircraft,helos,etc., would later on flow out from this entity and perhaps even HAL would one day end up being pvtly owned!
Dassult could move one of its production line to India lock, stock and barrel under a 100% FDI regime or a 51/49 JV with HAL where they retain management control. 50%+ component could be farmed out of this JV to other private players with the JV only keeping critical tech. and assembly.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby chaanakya » 13 Apr 2015 19:00

Su Swamy says no need to go to court in view of latest statement of DM.The G2G deal of 36 Rafale is best for the country. :IBN7


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