Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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shiv
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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby shiv » 14 Apr 2015 16:55

Altair wrote:Dumbest question of the day.
What are the chances for Indo-French joint development fighter aircraft floated like "BrahMos"?

Nearly zero.

India needs to go it alone for its internal consumption. Every big industrial power took that route - with China getting there now.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vaibhav.n » 14 Apr 2015 16:58

Rafale Squadron No. 1/91 on ASMP-A Nuclear Missile Strike Exercises with English translation.



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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby hnair » 14 Apr 2015 17:23

DexterM wrote:hnair, that area is a Tiger reserve. Ambasamudram had one notable industry (Coats PLC UK - later Madura Coats) and their colony was surrounded by a reserve. Have heard of stories when the tigers would descend the ghats and be seen behind this colony. I don't think either the road or the airbase would be a good idea. I've been to Papanasam as a child, but never knew that area had a defunct airbase or at least one planned.

PS: Do you know why that passway had nasty stories associated with it?




You got the locations wrong about the airstrip. Kayathar is a large village, further east of Tirunelveli, with arid (cultivable) flat land and is not in or around a tiger reserve. The GPS co-ordinates for the existing disused airstrips are at 8.970552, 77.816321. The Kottoor road is the remaining missing link (both to reduce distance and to byepass congestion of NH66, Panagudi connector and NH7) to Kayathar from Akulam. It goes through a tiger and elephant reserve, as does 1000s of kms of Indian roads and hence is not an issue. IIRC, when last checked, even the stringent Gadgil guidelines are not breached. Plus there is a political and admin consensus on both sides of state border and there have been numerous seminars on this topic. The petition to Shree Anthony did not go anywhere, as did MMRC. Which brings us back to thread topic.

Rest of the stuff are irrelevant to this thread. Let us stick to Rafale in this thread.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Altair » 14 Apr 2015 17:24

shiv wrote:
Altair wrote:Dumbest question of the day.
What are the chances for Indo-French joint development fighter aircraft floated like "BrahMos"?

Nearly zero.

India needs to go it alone for its internal consumption. Every big industrial power took that route - with China getting there now.


Thanks shiv.
We missed our ride by bicycle,rickshaw,scooter,bus,train and by flight...We could have got there walking if we had started and nurtured our own fighter after the 71 war.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 14 Apr 2015 17:33

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 2h2 hours ago

#RafaleAftermath Those who ignored Tejas is now hailing it! Honey extracted at home better than one bought from market. Thank You @PMOIndia
:shock: Whaaaaat! Who? Where? How come?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby rohitvats » 14 Apr 2015 18:16

Fact of the matter is pretty simple - there are MORE Rafale in pipeline.

If induction of ONLY 2 x Rafale Squadrons serves as 'oxygen' for IAF operational requirement (and it does, actually), then IAF would've been better served by inducting 2 more Su-30MKI squadrons. And these would come much faster than even Dassault produced Rafale. HAL has in past asked OEM to provide almost fully ready Su-30MKI for what were supposed to be Phase IV Sukhois to meet the deadline. It can simply repeat the process. And inducting 36 more Sukhois would not break the bank in terms of operational costs or 'putting eggs in Russian basket'.

So, my guess is that more Rafale are slated to come. And somewhere in the range of 8-10 squadrons.

I don't know how this will play out but there seems to be a larger game plan here. And India is likely to harden its stance on the FGFA with Russia.

Let us look at some points:

- Su-30MKI is a done thing and numbers will stabilize before end of this decade.
- With increased numbers, I foresee 8-9 squadrons for Tejas Mk1 and Mk2. (4+4 or 4+5)
- Looking at future (2030 and beyond), AMCA and FGFA are absolute must for the IAF for next phase of transition. By the time FGFA comes in 2025 as a mature platform, the earliest Su-30MKI would be 20+ years old.

By 2027-2030, I think the IAF fleet will look something like this:

Su-30MKI - 14
Rafale - 8
Tejas Mk1 - 4
Tejas Mk2- 5
FGFA - 2
Mirage-2000/Jaguar/Mig-29 - 12

Total: 45 squadrons.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby KJo » 14 Apr 2015 18:18

Subbu Swamy is threatening to sue/bring in a PIL against the Rafale.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby putnanja » 14 Apr 2015 18:21

Rafale deal likely to have a 30 pc offset clause

The over USD 6 billion deal for 36 Rafale jets is likely to have a 30 per cent offset clause valuing to nearly USD 2 billion that the Indian private industry will be eyeing.

Even though speculation had risen whether the clause would be included in the government to government deal, Indian as well as French sources said that there will at least 30 per cent offset clause.
...
...
The offset clause will work out to be around USD 2 billion. During the government to government talks, the offset obligation will also be finalised, defence sources said.
They pegged the deal at over USD 6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares.

Sources pointed out that previous government to government sale route also had offset clauses.
...
...
The criticism against the government to government deal between India and France for 36 Rafale jets was that it does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India.

Sources said the government is likely to insist Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale, to rope in the Indian private sector, a global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates.
...

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 14 Apr 2015 18:41

They pegged the deal at over USD 6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares


Ouch! That would have taken the whole thing (126) to over 20 Billion without any TOT whatsoever.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Indranil » 14 Apr 2015 18:43


^^^ And likely to go to Reliance :wink:

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ramana » 14 Apr 2015 18:48

Philip, Did ACM Tipnis also bat for Rafale and only Rafale?
Please answer as its important.


I think NaMo made the best decision for India.

I will post my reasons.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 14 Apr 2015 19:31

one question about the rafale video above..why would an aircraft do a terrain following exit after a nuclear strike ? wont it be square in the blast radius ?!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_23694 » 14 Apr 2015 19:32

ramana wrote:Did ACM Tipnis also bat for Rafale and only Rafale?


he contradicted the ex Ambassador to France for any other alternative apart from Rafale and that there should be more than 36. [i hope it was about Headlines Today intv]

putnanja wrote:
Rafale deal likely to have a 30 pc offset clause

If some orgn. just in the name of being PSU can expect that everything goes to them by default, then they need to have a relook at their future plans.
If each high end jet ASSEMBLY itself needs learning everything from scratch for a 60 yr old $3 billion ONLY aviation major in the country then there is some issue

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 14 Apr 2015 19:38

By 2027-2030, I think the IAF fleet will look something like this:...
Total: 45 squadrons.


The 45 squadrons number has been around for a some time now...

Would appreciate if the knowledgeable here give some estimates on what would be the chinese and Pakistan air force numbers around that time?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby chaanakya » 14 Apr 2015 19:58

dhiraj wrote:
If some orgn. just in the name of being PSU can expect that everything goes to them by default, then they need to have a relook at their future plans.
If each high end jet ASSEMBLY itself needs learning everything from scratch for a 60 yr old $3 billion ONLY aviation major in the country then there is some issue

There is never any certainty about PSU getting offsets. It is to be from India. Who does it is secondary question. MMRCA RFP specified HAL. Hence the glitch. If one recalls L&T is big time into Arihant. Erstwhile capable employees are also encouraged to seek VRS and funded to set up their own ancillary units to supply precision parts or procure items not easily available. Orders are captive but they do other non-defence business as well. I know some which were incubated by Dr Kalam for ISRO and IGMDP. One has to develop and nurture such Industries where MIC eco-system is almost non existent.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 14 Apr 2015 20:39

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 921333.cms
Private sector to gain, Rafale deal likely to have a 30% offset clause
The over $ 6 billion deal for 36 Rafale jets is likely to have a 30 per cent offset clause valuing to nearly $ 2 billion that the Indian private industry will be eyeing.

Even though speculation had risen whether the clause would be included in the government to government deal, Indian as well as French sources said that there will at least 30 per cent offset clause.
.................
The offset clause will work out to be around $ 2 billion. During the government to government talks, the offset obligation will also be finalised, defence sources said.

They pegged the deal at over $ 6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares.
.................
"The private sector will substantially gain from the offset part of the Rafale deal," a senior executive of a leading corporate group said.
................
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had yesterday insisted that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not mean that 'Make in Indian' programme has been set aside.

He said everything will depend on the quantum of the jets that India would eventually be interested in, besides the 36 and the terms and conditions agreed to once the negotiations start.
As of now everything is in the air.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Samay » 14 Apr 2015 20:40

According to latest estimates, how many Tejas Mk1(4th gen)/ Mk2 (4.5 gen) can we get by spending Rs. 36,000 Crores ?



Assumption: The final IOC of MK1 and MK2 will come only after the Rafale deal is finalised and order is placed, the way it happened with Arjun after T-90s started arriving

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 14 Apr 2015 20:53

IMO a loaded Tejas with mk2 kit like aesa and weapons would start around $60 mil and drop to 50 if volume high.
Is same ballpark as mig29k.

Right now it needs investment in production. Dividing by 40 to obtain cost is not meaningful now.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby abhik » 14 Apr 2015 21:25

Singha wrote:IMO a loaded Tejas with mk2 kit like aesa and weapons would start around $60 mil and drop to 50 if volume high.
Is same ballpark as mig29k.

The current batch of Mk.1 (airframe only), If I remember correctly, cost only $26 mil. Mk.2 cost should not exceed $45 mil. So 1:3 ratio for Rafale: Tejas Mk2 is a reasonable assumption.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby geeth » 14 Apr 2015 21:48

Jet-Li today mentioned in rrNDTV that "in 20 years time may be we will be able to make Rafale in India". May be he had in mind the technology level of HAL. TIFWW

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 14 Apr 2015 22:13

abhik wrote:
Singha wrote:IMO a loaded Tejas with mk2 kit like aesa and weapons would start around $60 mil and drop to 50 if volume high.
Is same ballpark as mig29k.

The current batch of Mk.1 (airframe only), If I remember correctly, cost only $26 mil. Mk.2 cost should not exceed $45 mil. So 1:3 ratio for Rafale: Tejas Mk2 is a reasonable assumption.

What in Mk2 will cause that escalation of cost? Other than the addition of the plug, there is no reconfiguration of wings or structural components. So where exactly do we have this rise in cost? It will continue being the band of $30-32mn, inc. spares.

Your assumption looks good, but you see, the Tejas Mk 3 aka Grippen is what we will focus on for the next ten years. (no mistake with the version)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Paul » 14 Apr 2015 22:21

Kartik wrote:Looks like this direct buy will be truly expedited..but am well and truly amazed if HAL execs actually uttered such lines about not having done any groundwork on their part to set up the assembly line.


India to Sign Rafale Contract By June


PARIS --- French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is to shortly travel to India to iron out the details of the direct sale of 36 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, with a view to signing the contract during the Paris air show in mid-June.

Negotiations will continue in parallel for the local production of at least 108 Rafale in India, although it can no longer be assumed that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be automatically involved [wait and see, in any case, not under MMRCA]. Dassault had originally planned to team with India’s privately-owned Reliance group and, in the wake of the April 10 announcement of a direct purchase, HAL officials made remarkably lackadaisical statements to Indian media:
“We did not initiate any concrete step at the HAL for manufacturing the planes here”, one HAL official told the India Tribune, adding that “After all, there was never much clarity on whether the deal with Rafale would be finally signed.” The official also revealed that HAL had done remarkably little to prepare for Rafale production: “There was never any question of acquiring land or bring together a team for MMRCA”, he said.

Given that Egypt, which has just ordered 24 Rafales, and India are both in a hurry to receive their aircraft, France will turn over to them its next 49 delivery slots, and will resume its own deliveries after 2019.
Dassault currently builds Rafales at a rate of 11 a year, and needs about three years to double it.

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday that "It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane……Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price” which he also said would be about 4 billion euros.

As we noted on Friday, a direct purchase will resolve most of the bottlenecks that have blocked the MMRCA contract negotiations over the past three years, and which mostly focus on the price of the 108 Indian-made aircraft and on who would provide their contractual warranty. The fundamental problem, however, is that by codifying and closely regulating as many aspects of defense procurement as it could, India’s previous government created a web of red tape so complex and so arcane that mutually-acceptable defense deals have become virtually impossible.

Another – and so far unsaid - factor is that HAL’s work-force is not yet capable of assembling aircraft as advanced as Rafale, and the Indian government appears to have realized that it was insisting on an expensive and time-consuming industrial fantasy that it would probably be unable to implement in the short term. Finally, a direct purchase would elegantly sidestep thorny coproduction issues, give India fixed, firm prices guaranteed by the French government, and relieve the current pressure to conclude a license production agreement that suits neither side.


India to sign contract for first 36 Rafale by June


I remember reading somewhere HAL has committed 400 crore in preparation for Rafale deal...HAL is blowing hot air by pretending there was no prep for Rafale MFG in India.

BTW. Has anyone noticed for the first time the TFTA index is decisively in India's favor with Rafale. Pakis started with starfighter in 60s, Mirage III in 60s and 70s, then bought refurbed Mirage V and early model F16s to date. India was making do with SDRE soviet fighters and brought in Mirage 2000H but these never really matched up to viper in TFTA quotient. Fizzleya was gungho on the 80s. Trouble started in late 90s with India going for Sukhoi but this was like comparing a Suburban to a early model Mustang.

Now with Pakis forced to make do with refurbished vipers and SDRE Chinese junk, this perception battle will surely put Fizzelya on the backfoot. This will and is causing some takleef to Pakis. Even Viper Block 60 will not plug this gap. They will most likely get J10s which is a Lavi redux but will not be enough......

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_20292 » 14 Apr 2015 22:38

no ones thought of the nuke angle?

the rafale is for nuke delivery.... and it will also serve as a conduit to pay France for services rendered in other fields like intelligence and nukes.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_23694 » 14 Apr 2015 22:39

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/previous ... dtv-755006

Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."

He said the Modi government would now review acquisitions worth Rs. 5,40,000 crore cleared by the previous government.

The BJP government, the minister said, will first acquire only equipment and weapon systems that are critical for the three forces. "We are in the process of weeding out the rest."

"Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.

How many each of the Rafale and Tejas fighters will be deployed will depend on negotiations with the French government on any further purchase from Dassault, he said

The government, Mr Parrikar said, wants a fighter jet manufacturer to set up a facility in India which "may not necessarily be Dassault."

The last point could actually imply that govt. has asked Dassault to setup a facility in India directly along with pvt. partner for further orders.
This facility could help in future Indian products.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Raveen » 14 Apr 2015 22:50

mahadevbhu wrote:no ones thought of the nuke angle?

the rafale is for nuke delivery.... and it will also serve as a conduit to pay France for services rendered in other fields like intelligence and nukes.


Why on earth would you want to hitch a n phataka to the least reliable and survivable platform - an airplane when you can just tie it like a rakhi to a bottle rocket and Agnipath it?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Samay » 14 Apr 2015 22:57

We dont need Rafale to kick out chainese and green-ied productions, because that would be overkill.
What we do need is
some Pakfa(100 nos.) and maybe FGFA-IN (100 nos.) For surprise,
some Sukhoi MKI(200 nos.) for Intimidation & Dominance and
lots of LCA/NLCA MK 1 & MK2(500 nos.) for obvious reasons.
Rest assured, we can have our own Jet museum ,where we can put all the Migs,Jags,Dassaults, so that we can have some reserves for emergency if any.

If Jet-li says we can learn to manufacture Rafales in 20 yrs , then IMHO it is a great vision, for private players. Lets see what efforts they make to increase another type of inventory (not-insured)
Every Nuki-Nation in the World relies on Missiles as Nuke-delivery platform. For Putting aircraft numbers in the sky we dont need Rafale or any other import , LCA is enough.
36 Rafales should be the last and final we purchase from Dassault (overpriced)

This Rafale deal means that all those pretty little songs about indigenisation that we had been hearing since childhood , those budget cuts and boosts , those designs, those complex tenders to infuse technology into Indian PSUs, those years spend on negotiations, that was all b#$%it.
Here it is Katrina, {costly} , imported , very few , showpiece :shock:
Last edited by Samay on 14 Apr 2015 23:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby RoyG » 14 Apr 2015 23:18

dhiraj wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/previous-government-did-not-think-the-c-deal-through-defence-minister-manohar-parrikar-to-ndtv-755006

Buying "126 (fighters) would cost India about Rs. 1 lakh crore. Can we spend so much money on a high-end fighter," Mr Parrikar asked, adding, "you don't agree to a 1 lakh crore deal" without working out how and from where the money will come."

He said the Modi government would now review acquisitions worth Rs. 5,40,000 crore cleared by the previous government.

The BJP government, the minister said, will first acquire only equipment and weapon systems that are critical for the three forces. "We are in the process of weeding out the rest."

"Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.

How many each of the Rafale and Tejas fighters will be deployed will depend on negotiations with the French government on any further purchase from Dassault, he said

The government, Mr Parrikar said, wants a fighter jet manufacturer to set up a facility in India which "may not necessarily be Dassault."

The last point could actually imply that govt. has asked Dassault to setup a facility in India directly along with pvt. partner for further orders.
This facility could help in future Indian products.


Additional Rafales are being negotiated for behind the scenes. I think HAL is set for a major overhaul and many of its units may be sold off to privates.

There will be no Gripen. It is LCA MKII all the way.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Karan M » 14 Apr 2015 23:19

Nothing's going to happen to HAL. The BJP Govt won't mess with any DPSU because of the strong unionized labor.
Always been the case. Likely, more fiscal freedom and professional leadership. That in itself may be a big plus.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby DexterM » 14 Apr 2015 23:26

Raveen wrote:
mahadevbhu wrote:no ones thought of the nuke angle?

the rafale is for nuke delivery.... and it will also serve as a conduit to pay France for services rendered in other fields like intelligence and nukes.


Why on earth would you want to hitch a n phataka to the least reliable and survivable platform - an airplane when you can just tie it like a rakhi to a bottle rocket and Agnipath it?

Where exactly will the Rafale carry a nuke? If it is Pakistan, then you don't need an aircraft - and if it is China, you wouldn't be able to do it anyways! So we should allow that one to go past the stumps. The real reason is probably the possibility of flying in the shadow of the MKI to rattle and shake down the 240 odd J-10s. The Chinese have 200 odd J-11Bs of various tranches (1.3/4 should be the latest). What are the real odds of being able to handle 600 frontline fighters on the Chinese front alone? If they're of licensed make, spares will not be an issue (their own made replacement engines are good enough for a 100hr cycle that should cover weeklong combat). If our MKIs have serviceability issues, will the knockoffs really be that much better, given that a third should be on the Chinese-made engines.

PAF has 72 F-16s of which perhaps 50-54 are serviceable but only 18 would be of later blocks and of serious caliber vs. our defences. They have 50 odd Thundar Bundars that are not much of a threat to anyone but their own pilots. They also have 75 previous gen Mirage III or 5. In reality, the PAF is not in a position to prosecute any domination exercises. The China bogey is therefore key to the IAF. Unless we manage to build a credible air defence, there might be more of what the Good Doc calls operational readiness issues.

Can someone explain this better to this layman?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 15 Apr 2015 02:29

Austin wrote:That pretty much applies to any thing you buy if that is the basis of calculation

Yes. Though defence inflation usually runs a couple of percentage points ahead of market value.

https://www.saddahaq.com/foreign-affairs/india-france/india-and-france-that39s-life

Parrikar : MKI to cost 358 crore and Rafale 700 crore

That's seems quite authoritative. Thanks.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Shreeman » 15 Apr 2015 02:44

We would like to gloat, having predicted the death of mmrca/126 consistently, eg viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6865&p=1797004&hilit=+rafale#p1797004

$5-10B lost is better than $10-20B.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 15 Apr 2015 03:36

Samay wrote:

This Rafale deal means that all those pretty little songs about indigenisation that we had been hearing since childhood , those budget cuts and boosts , those designs, those complex tenders to infuse technology into Indian PSUs, those years spend on negotiations, that was all b#$%it.
Here it is Katrina, {costly} , imported , very few , showpiece :shock:


I beg to differ. I think this is a very clever way to do the following:

1. Placate the IAF in return for which they will have to order LCA MK1/2/3 and get serious about AMCA
2. Peel off HAL's monopoly little by little (the Airbus investment and possible tie up with Indian pvt sector)
3. Avoid the penalties involved in canceling the MMRCA deal by buying off the French and moving beyond the deadlock.
4. Get the Areva/Jaitpur deal rolling with some concessions on tariff
5. Let Dassault commit to the tie up with Reliance that it so desires, guarantee not only the build quality but also live up to 'make in India' in exchange for the order of 108 more a/c.

It's not a magic wand but what it does do is scratch everyone's itch and moves the process forward. The big loser is the FGFA/PAK/FA which the IAF seems not to want anyway.

MVHO

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby ramana » 15 Apr 2015 04:03

Cosmo_R, I don't think there are any 108 more. At most another 18 to make up three squadrons.

No Dassault make in India especially with jagat sheth. Sure fire way to make him more powerful.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srai » 15 Apr 2015 04:14

abhik wrote:
Singha wrote:IMO a loaded Tejas with mk2 kit like aesa and weapons would start around $60 mil and drop to 50 if volume high.
Is same ballpark as mig29k.

The current batch of Mk.1 (airframe only), If I remember correctly, cost only $26 mil. Mk.2 cost should not exceed $45 mil. So 1:3 ratio for Rafale: Tejas Mk2 is a reasonable assumption.


Tejas will be using the IAF's existing arsenal stock whereas for Rafale new billions of dollars worth of weapons need to be purchased. So the 1:3 ratio may be more like 1:4. Even lifecycle/operating costs of a fuel-efficient single-engined Tejas would be significantly lower than the two-engined Rafale.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby prat.patel » 15 Apr 2015 04:40

Cosmo_R wrote:
Samay wrote:

This Rafale deal means that all those pretty little songs about indigenisation that we had been hearing since childhood , those budget cuts and boosts , those designs, those complex tenders to infuse technology into Indian PSUs, those years spend on negotiations, that was all b#$%it.
Here it is Katrina, {costly} , imported , very few , showpiece :shock:


I beg to differ. I think this is a very clever way to do the following:

1. Placate the IAF in return for which they will have to order LCA MK1/2/3 and get serious about AMCA
2. Peel off HAL's monopoly little by little (the Airbus investment and possible tie up with Indian pvt sector)
3. Avoid the penalties involved in canceling the MMRCA deal by buying off the French and moving beyond the deadlock.
4. Get the Areva/Jaitpur deal rolling with some concessions on tariff
5. Let Dassault commit to the tie up with Reliance that it so desires, guarantee not only the build quality but also live up to 'make in India' in exchange for the order of 108 more a/c.

It's not a magic wand but what it does do is scratch everyone's itch and moves the process forward. The big loser is the FGFA/PAK/FA which the IAF seems not to want anyway.

MVHO


I agree to lot of these points above. It is very plausible. And I think the point no 3 above is very important too. I think this GOI very quickly realized that the original MMRCA deal is not only un-affordable, plus there was a deadlock between HAL/Dassault which was very difficult to break without avoiding controversies.
They wanted to cancel the MMRCA anyways; this 36 off the shelf was a quid-pro-quo to get out of MMRCA without penalties.
Plus with this whole MMRCA thing out of the way it did pave way forward for lot of other deals in other sectors.

I have no doubt IAF will be asked (or politely told) to make do with these 36 Rafale for immediate future and then work with ADA to get LCA and AMCA inducted.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby kit » 15 Apr 2015 08:49

I don't know if LCA is kicked out for something like the single engined gripen if HAL can't deliver ..FGFA seems fully on track so the real MRCA is the FGFA if numbers ... everyone and his uncle seems to be in the arena !

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_27845 » 15 Apr 2015 09:41

If the IAF does not want the LCA , maybe its time to create a new AIR DEFENCE component similar to the AIR NATIONAL GUARD

Outfitted with LCA and other indigenous stuff , and most importantly a new attitude towards developing a national MIC

It can be extended to the IA too , and equip with Arjuns and other desi stuff

And take its budget out of IA / IAF

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby geeth » 15 Apr 2015 10:02

Why cant the GOI think a bit out of the box and take assistance from foreigners in setting up world class manufacturing facilities? May be they are thinking in those terms..an indication is the tie up signed with Snecma during the recent Aero India show (I dont know the details) . May be they can have similar tie up for composites, avionics, missile fabrication, metal forming and various other areas.. IMO, these alone may help in improving the performance of LCA to some extent.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby pankajs » 15 Apr 2015 10:09

Every report is speculative unless proven otherwise ...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 925512.cms
Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby
NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.

Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.

The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.

The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.
............
Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby nash » 15 Apr 2015 10:33

pankajs wrote:Every report is speculative unless proven otherwise ...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 925512.cms
Make in India: Rafale deal may take off as a joint venture between French and Indian firm - Mannu Pubby
NEW DELHI: The government could ask France's Dassault Aviation to rope in an Indian partner to jointly manufacture the next batch of its Rafale fighters in the country as a condition for landing the remainder of the contract, a move it hopes will fulfil the 'Make in India' dimension that could not be met in its off-the-shelf purchase of 36 planes last week.

Sources familiar with the matter said there were initial discussions in the government on whether to press the French firm to sign up an Indian partner and form a joint venture company in which the local firm could own up to 51 per cent stake and this firm could execute the contract to supply the remaining planes.

The sources insisted that these were initial discussions and there was no certainty a final plan would have these contours.

The Indian partner, according to these discussions, would not be restricted to state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), potentially opening up the field for private players to step into the lucrative defence and aerospace business. A consortium approach, in which a group of Indian private companies come together with HAL to constitute the Indian ownership, was also being spoken of during these discussions, the sources said, adding that the entire plan was nebulous and could undergo major changes.
............
Sources said that while the original requirement of 126 fighters for the air force stands, this number could be revisited in the coming days after a reassessment. A higher number of planes could encourage the French side, which could otherwise have reservations on ceding the controlling stake in the Indian joint venture, to set up a production base for the jets. Such an approach could counter criticism that the new Rafale deal does not give much to India in terms of technology transfer and production capabilities. Going about the remainder of the contract though the joint venture route could give the Indian private sector a chance to partake of the government's defence spending and develop manufacturing expertise in an area that has largely been the preserve of staterun firms.


It is what also speculated some months back:

http://archive.defensenews.com/article/ ... k-Monopoly
I think there is very good possibility that it can become a reality


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