Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28526 » 24 Apr 2015 20:29

Ten years of indecision and stupor and suddenly they are very concerned.

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Rafale- ... 034092.cms

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Aditya G » 26 Apr 2015 11:12

ACM Krishnaswamy on mordenisation..

http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/M ... Id=-225861

Defence takes up a sizeable package of public expenditure that rightfully draws a strong debate on its modernisation. Big-ticket items do raise interesting views in the debate. The acquisition of a Russian aircraft carrier for the Navy caused quite a stir after the unprecedented price escalation cost the country a bomb. Next on the list is the proposed acquisition of Rafale fighter jets, which would be the most expensive purchase to date.

Cost is not the only concern; there appears to be a discomfort in taking decisions, which has led to extraordinary delays. India may well be creating a poor impression of its decision-making process. Fortunately, the country has a sharp-minded IIT graduate as defence minister, who is known for taking clear decisions, and we hope that the dust would settle down quickly.

Rafale is certainly a much-needed addition to the Indian Air Force. During the Kargil conflict, only Mirage 2000 had the capability to deliver a precision-guided bomb accurately on Tiger Hill, putting to rest the criticisms over its acquisition. We have ensured that its special features are embodied on the light combat aircraft and Su-30MKI.

Rafale would have better and wider capabilities in all weather. While speed and manoeuvrability are important traits of a combat aircraft, the demand in modern times is for flexibility of role while in air.

The 'swing role' fighter could carry a variety of weapons and sensors and be able to engage targets in air, on ground or at sea on a single mission. Rafale can perform 'swing role' functions though it may predominantly remain a multi-role combat aircraft (like Su-30MKI) that is configured on ground for specific missions prior to take-off. It promises more effective delivery, improved availability and longer technical life than any other machine in the current inventory. There is excellent scope to improve the Su-30MKI, which was designed 20 years ago, indigenously since it is being produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

The Air Force, for long, has been working on regaining its squadron strength. It may not be such an urgent need but would possibly be a projection for the future. The Air Force may be short on squadrons but in terms of firepower, it has four times the strength it had two decades ago when it had around 40 squadrons.

EACH Su-30MKI (more than 250 of them) has at least four times the potential of an old MiG-21 FL. What is important is 'operational availability'. Effective management follows good planning to ensure maximum availability and a systematic repair/ overhaul line.

It would not be a good idea to get new machines if the old ones are awaiting repair in the hangar. However, numbers are important to mount effective operations. Experienced air forces plan for 'high-low mix'. For India, a combination of LCA and Su-30MKI/ Rafale would make the low-high mix. Proportionately, low would be in larger number (low does not mean lack of sophistication but a lower level of ordnance carriage and range, and a limited role).

For a 'swing role' fighter to be effective, an advanced communication network, excellent real-time intelligence and a well-delegated and effective decision-making body are required. With the induction of multi-role combat aircraft, we expect to procure more advanced missiles, weapons and sensors.

Buying new planes, guns and ships alone would not make our military potent.

Innovative ways have to be found to reduce the cost of operations and of inventory management. Innovative ways have to be found to also improve manpower quality, and reduce surplus manpower. The tooth-to-tail ratio in the Indian military is one of the lowest among modern military forces.

While we criticise public sector undertakings, the time is right for the military to transfer its industrial functions to the private sector. Military service has gradually become a government job. While permanent commission is treated like permanence 'till death do us apart', those who join in short service commission are going to court to become permanent!

The Air Force must permit its personnel to retire after putting a minimum number of years of service. There should no longer be a difference between permanent and short service.

There is a lot on the plate for the government and the military to resolve. Modernisation is an all-encompassing exercise and is not limited only to inducting billion-dollar equipment.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 27 Apr 2015 04:43

Aditya G wrote:ACM Krishnaswamy on mordenisation..

http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/M ... Id=-225861

EACH Su-30MKI (more than 250 of them) has at least four times the potential of an old MiG-21 FL. What is important is 'operational availability'. Effective management follows good planning to ensure maximum availability and a systematic repair/overhaul line.

It would not be a good idea to get new machines if the old ones are awaiting repair in the hangar. However, numbers are important to mount effective operations. Experienced air forces plan for 'high-low mix'. For India, a combination of LCA and Su-30MKI/ Rafale would make the low-high mix. Proportionately, low would be in larger number (low does not mean lack of sophistication but a lower level of ordnance carriage and range, and a limited role).

This probably is only increasing my low post count :) , but the ACM is absolutely right! We need to aim for Rambha availablity at a minimum of 80% - 85%...that is asking for a lot, but doable if we follow the ACM's advise of effective management. We sorely lack good project managers.

By the way, I never knew but serial # SB027 was the first overhauled Rambha.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-gets-first-overhauled-Su-30-MKI/articleshow/45824826.cms

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 27 Apr 2015 09:38

The ACM is only echoing what I've said may a time.In our country,the culture of maintenance and support is absent.Just check into any govt dept. and see the filth and shabbiness despite the fact that they occupy grand old colonial buildings.It is only in the last few years that we see some efforts in certain cities,etc. attempts to keep streets and public places clean,etc. Cannibalisation of aircraft because spares haven't been ordered,delayed decision making,etc.,is rampant.If the % of operational efficiency of the existing fleet is enhanced ,it will have a substantial effect on the readiness of the IAF/services to deal with surprise threats like experienced at Kargil.

PS:Those who fly into a certain air base which also doubles as a civil aerodrome will see like pieces of sculpture some essential and unique eqpt. which cost a lot and are vitally needed at the current time.If only these objects/eqpt. could be put back into service,they would save millions of $$ and be pressed into service right away.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby shukla » 29 Apr 2015 02:11

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/reuters-saab-sees-growing-gripen-fighter-demand-amid-russia-tensions-387283.html

In India, where Saab failed to progress to the last round of a massive order for 126 jets that eventually went to France's Dassault only to become mired in years of inconclusive negotiations, Saab believes there could still be opportunities for light jets like the single-engined Gripen.

"We hear clear signals from India that something else is needed," Ahlqvist said, adding Saab was ready to transfer ample technology to fulfil the country's 'Made in India' policy.


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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2015 03:23

Rakesh wrote:
This probably is only increasing my low post count :) , but the ACM is absolutely right! We need to aim for Rambha availablity at a minimum of 80% - 85%...that is asking for a lot, but doable if we follow the ACM's advise of effective management. We sorely lack good project managers.

By the way, I never knew but serial # SB027 was the first overhauled Rambha.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-gets-first-overhauled-Su-30-MKI/articleshow/45824826.cms


Rakesh, good observation. 75% availability is the touted western fighter average. The Russian philosophy (perhaps born of WW2) is to plan for high attrition. IOW, don't plan on fixing planes we expect to lose—almost a single use disposable mindset.

Our needs are different and how or whether we can convert the design into a high availability/reuse model is the question. It's mostly supply chain related along with a system to quickly order parts from a central depot. Since we don't make every part in India, we will still be dependent on Russia for some/many items. Only God knows how that works.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Apr 2015 04:46

Cosmo_R wrote:
Rakesh wrote:
This probably is only increasing my low post count :) , but the ACM is absolutely right! We need to aim for Rambha availablity at a minimum of 80% - 85%...that is asking for a lot, but doable if we follow the ACM's advise of effective management. We sorely lack good project managers.

By the way, I never knew but serial # SB027 was the first overhauled Rambha.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-gets-first-overhauled-Su-30-MKI/articleshow/45824826.cms


Rakesh, good observation. 75% availability is the touted western fighter average. The Russian philosophy (perhaps born of WW2) is to plan for high attrition. IOW, don't plan on fixing planes we expect to lose—almost a single use disposable mindset.

Our needs are different and how or whether we can convert the design into a high availability/reuse model is the question. It's mostly supply chain related along with a system to quickly order parts from a central depot. Since we don't make every part in India, we will still be dependent on Russia for some/many items. Only God knows how that works.


Don't be so sure sir, IIRC Mirage 2000 availability is/was pretty low recently (50% or so) if reports are to be believed. In any case, what happens to availability of western fleet if India decides to do a nuke test?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 29 Apr 2015 05:03

what happens to availability of western fleet if India decides to do a nuke test?


I am betting that the West will collectively bit their lip and do nothing.

But, there is no longer a need for India to test.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Apr 2015 05:08

^willing to bet your country's future and the lives of thousands on that? France, possibly. Hence the Rafale. Otherwise, I am not so sure.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 29 Apr 2015 10:37

Cain Marko wrote:^willing to bet your country's future and the lives of thousands on that? France, possibly. Hence the Rafale. Otherwise, I am not so sure.


I don't think anyone would be happy to bet the country's future and lives of thousands on the French and/or Russians not sanctioning us either. Well maybe Philip for the latter but most others wouldn't. On the other hand, not importing necessary equipment (ones without viable domestic alternatives) would also impact the country's security and that of its citizens. Same applies to importing overpriced or unreliable equipment.

As far as the West is concerned, all economic and geopolitics developments over the last decade and a half suggest that most major players will limit themselves to verbal criticism and diplomatic tut-tutting. The wildcards would be a clutch of Scandinavian states and a post-Abe Japan. Sweden is particularly worrisome, seeing as Saab is a contractor for several local projects.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 29 Apr 2015 18:28

Cosmo_R wrote:..
Our needs are different and how or whether we can convert the design into a high availability/reuse model is the question. It's mostly supply chain related along with a system to quickly order parts from a central depot. Since we don't make every part in India, we will still be dependent on Russia for some/many items. Only God knows how that works.

There are some definite ways:
(1) Western planes already have access to spare banks.
(2) With spare banks (created just about now) for Sukhoi 30MKI, its availability seems to increase already.

What no one seems to know is how perception that "western models have better availability" would hold without spare banks - that is something impossible to know, actually. In fact, we do know now that western models have much higher cost of maintenance.

It is quite obvious that availability would drop without spare banks, which no one seems to state clearly. People make arbitrary presumptions that "western models have better availability" without stating any connection to spare parts available.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby vishvak » 29 Apr 2015 18:37

Viv S wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:^willing to bet your country's future and the lives of thousands on that? France, possibly. Hence the Rafale. Otherwise, I am not so sure.


I don't think anyone would be happy to bet the country's future and lives of thousands on the French and/or Russians not sanctioning us either. Well maybe Philip for the latter but most others wouldn't. On the other hand, not importing necessary equipment (ones without viable domestic alternatives) would also impact the country's security and that of its citizens. Same applies to importing overpriced or unreliable equipment.

As far as the West is concerned, all economic and geopolitics developments over the last decade and a half suggest that most major players will limit themselves to verbal criticism and diplomatic tut-tutting. The wildcards would be a clutch of Scandinavian states and a post-Abe Japan. Sweden is particularly worrisome, seeing as Saab is a contractor for several local projects.

The off hand comment about Phillip sir is totally off the mark. Going by the record, Russia and France have stood by Indians while the sanctions were, and have been by very nature, "western". The reality is opposite to perception here.

In fact, going by how Americans bought off spare parts of Mig 21s while we were facing shortage of the same, one can put such a question mark - about sanctions, spare parts, and so on, on western countries without having to generalize the problem.

Another point is how the western sanctions seem to not work on Pakistan wherein lots of hardware, including planes, are made available - as exception to same sanctions. This in face of blackmarket of nuclear weapons and terrorism that everyone knows about.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 29 Apr 2015 19:12

^willing to bet your country's future and the lives of thousands on that? France, possibly. Hence the Rafale. Otherwise, I am not so sure.


You are betting too. So, what is the difference? Just that you and me are headed in opposite directions. That is all.

You are betting something will happen, I am betting it will not. So, you have a fear, which I do not.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2015 20:10

NRao wrote:
what happens to availability of western fleet if India decides to do a nuke test?


I am betting that the West will collectively bit their lip and do nothing.

But, there is no longer a need for India to test.


I'm betting that there will be another 1996 situation where the P5 all test ("for the final time") giving each other the leeway under CTBT. The US has not ratified CTBT and there is intense pressure in congress to upgrade weapon designs that are nearly 50 years old. That's the opening India must exploit to finally put to rest the insinuations about the H-bomb failure.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2015 20:14

@Cain MArko ^^^ "Don't be so sure sir, IIRC Mirage 2000 availability is/was pretty low recently (50% or so) if reports are to be believed. In any case, what happens to availability of western fleet if India decides to do a nuke test?"

I honestly have no clue which is why I prefaced it with 'touted'. Manohar Parrikar seems to imply higher availability of western fighters. Whether he meant in Western air forces or the Mirage 2K in the IAF, I have no way of knowing.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Apr 2015 20:23

Cosmo,

The US at Lawrence Livermore, and France at Bordeaux have laser ignition facilities where they can test the efficacy of nuclei in fission. The chemical, electrical, and mechanical devices are still "cold" tested at test ranges to this day. The P-5 know full well that should they resume testing, there are many other countries, besides India, which will test.

Since India will soon be a strategic partner with the US and will buy hundreds of F-35s in the near future, might as well give test devices to unkil for testing so the pesky neighbor to the west will do another episode of haseena atim bum. ;)

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2015 20:25

@Vishvak ^^^"It is quite obvious that availability would drop without spare banks, which no one seems to state clearly. People make arbitrary presumptions that "western models have better availability" without stating any connection to spare parts available."

That is a truism. What is established is that Western (read US) forces are backed by a capacity to produce at scale given the number of a/c they buy for themselves. The capacity in turn is based on spelled out contractual guarantees. What is not established is that Russia has that capacity, the contractual guarantees in place and a well funded supply chain that has a steady flow of orders. There is no transparency and they treat us like children. We can't build up spares inventories without that Russian base and the absolute confidence that any change in tolerances or MTBF would be communicated to us as clients. This is absolutely key. Else you find out you've five thousand sprockets in inventory but the latest batch is off by xyz and does not fit at the base depot.

I have to stress again that this not about 'paying back the Russians and/or the French for past support. It has to be 100% about what we need and want.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Cosmo_R » 29 Apr 2015 20:30

Mort Walker wrote:Cosmo,

The US at Lawrence Livermore, and France at Bordeaux have laser ignition facilities where they can test the efficacy of nuclei in fission. The chemical, electrical, and mechanical devices are still "cold" tested at test ranges to this day. The P-5 know full well that should they resume testing, there are many other countries, besides India, which will test.

Since India will soon be a strategic partner with the US and will buy hundreds of F-35s in the near future, might as well give test devices to unkil for testing so the pesky neighbor to the west will do another episode of haseena atim bum. ;)


Mort, does the PRC have the LIF (I don't know) ? FWIW, there are a whole bunch of Senators, former defense secretaries, and generals in the US who want a physical test because they are worried about the moving parts working (together).

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Apr 2015 20:43

PRC does not, but they've started on something IIRC. The question is does the PRC have the engineering know how to put millions of joules of energy in a very confined volume, that is the volume of nuclei of several large atoms? One of the ideas of the MMRCA going to Dassault was that India would get access to the Bordeaux facility. There was some discussion with Sarkozy and MMS about this, but I hadn't heard anything more.

Be careful of what unkil politicos say as they want to feed their defense contractor lobbyist dosts. Sometimes they force gobermint to do irrational things.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 30 Apr 2015 02:57

vishvak wrote:The off hand comment about Phillip sir is totally off the mark.

Hop over to the Armoured Vehicles thread, you'll find some very fascinating posts.

Going by the record, Russia and France have stood by Indians while the sanctions were, and have been by very nature, "western". The reality is opposite to perception here.

Going 'by the record', the US should still be at loggerheads with Vietnam, Russia with China. France with Germany and so on. Times change. Circumstances change. Interests evolve.

In fact, going by how Americans bought off spare parts of Mig 21s while we were facing shortage of the same, one can put such a question mark - about sanctions, spare parts, and so on, on western countries without having to generalize the problem.

Bought off from whom? Russia? Where did you hear this story?

Another point is how the western sanctions seem to not work on Pakistan wherein lots of hardware, including planes, are made available - as exception to same sanctions. This in face of blackmarket of nuclear weapons and terrorism that everyone knows about.

There are no sanctions on Pakistan. And when they were applicable (1990-2001), they did bite.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 30 Apr 2015 12:18

There is an article in a Western paper today on how a "Communist victory" (fall of Saigon 40 yrs ago) has resulted in "Capitalist Corruption"!

I really don't see any of our major defence suppliers sanctioning us if we are in a state of war,unless it is solely with Pak,where the US will want the spat to end asap .The US has for a long time now wanted India to compromise with Pak over J&K,while getting nothing in return rom our mortal enemy It has afar cosier relationship with its favourite rent-boy..Even Bush toady Snake-Oil Singh couldn't bring himself to kiss a Paki backside ,though he came near to it over the "Baluchistan bungle".In an Indo-China spat,the US will be bending over backwards to supply us with weaponry,etc.,though!

Similarly,in an Indo-Sino spat,it will be the Russians who will want a speedy cease-fire as it has excellent relations with both nations now,even though China is still considered a rival and potential enemy unlike India. The Russians have been thrown into many lucrative deals with the Chinese thanks to the asinine US over its flawed UKR policy and now faces the alarming prospect of a Russian backed Chinese aggro campaign against the US in the Pacific.If there is an Indo-Sino spat,the BRICS group would also go for six as well,a huge diplomatic setback for the members,esp. China,which stands to lose the most.

The country which will support us the max apart from Russia is Israel,even with US pressure applied.France has suddenly weakened under "M.Hollandaise sauce",no Gaullist backbone there as we've seen over the Mistral deal, succumbing to UIS pressure.

Therefore,the diversification of arms procurement from different nations,depending upon their reliability and ordering key cutting edge weapons systems from the most reliable is sound. There was in interesting comment in a paper today. "Governance means making decisions,not taking decisions means non-governance",in an allusion to the recent decisions on defence. Therefore,whether we agree,disagree or have reservations about the Raffy deal as it now stands,no one can fault the Modi regime and the PM in particular for cutting through the Delhi-Dassault knot of red tape and taking a firm decision to buy 36.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 30 Apr 2015 13:10

Philip wrote:I really don't see any of our major defence suppliers sanctioning us if we are in a state of war,unless it is solely with Pak,where the US will want the spat to end asap .The US has for a long time now wanted India to compromise with Pak over J&K,while getting nothing in return rom our mortal enemy

The US is concerned first and foremost with its own interests, everything else being secondary. As far as Pakistan is concerned it has two basic interests -

1. Keep the supply lines to Afghanistan open for the duration of its involvement there.
2. Ensure Pakistan isn't destabilised internally or externally, to the point where the safety of its nuclear arsenal comes into question.

Aside from that I doubt it cares who's runs J&K. Though with the spread of Islamic fundamentalism, it'll probably be happier off with India running the show (and keeping a lid on at least one potential trouble-spot in the world).

At an inter-personal level where once individuals soaker in 80s era bonhomie still had some pull, Pakistan is pretty much detested in among the US mandarins and veterans alike today as a result of its role in Afghanistan (exemplified in the fall of Robin Raphel).
______________________________________________________________________________________________

People like Raphel were meant to get Pakistan to deliver the Taliban for the so-called ‘peace talks’ but they failed miserably while the Pentagon commanders faced defeat and have to explain the 2,350 dead soldiers. When she talked up Pakistan at think tanks in Washington, they were appalled.

“Her ice queen act didn’t go down well with soldiers who were getting shot at, blown up and dying having no idea why any of it was happening,” the source commented. The anti-Pakistan feeling is intense among US veterans of the Afghan war.
Link

“There is a very hardcore anti-Pakistan lobby in the State Department, including many very smart people who are as American as anyone else but they do have these leanings.” Link
______________________________________________________________________________________________

This BTW is something I have heard from IA officers returning from official tours to the US. When I asked (among many many other questions) what sort of opinion the US officers (and troops) they interacted with had about Pakistan, the response was short - 'They hate them. They know what it did in A'stan'.

Similarly,in an Indo-Sino spat,it will be the Russians who will want a speedy cease-fire as it has excellent relations with both nations now,even though China is still considered a rival and potential enemy unlike India. The Russians have been thrown into many lucrative deals with the Chinese thanks to the asinine US over its flawed UKR policy and now faces the alarming prospect of a Russian backed Chinese aggro campaign against the US in the Pacific.

Russia's involvement with China long precedes the Ukrainian crisis. And given its antipathy to the EU, the current downturn in relations with the West was inevitable. But you're right in that Russia will take rigorously refrain from picking sides in an India-China conflict. In fact, depending on how things evolve over the coming years, it may even tilt towards China (albeit short of explicit support).

If there is an Indo-Sino spat,the BRICS group would also go for six as well,a huge diplomatic setback for the members,esp. China,which stands to lose the most.

BRICS are an invention of the Jim O'Neil of Goldman Sachs. It was intended as a byword of fast growing economies (of which stagnant economies of Russia & Brazil are no longer a part). There was and still is no geopolitical basis to the BRICS outside of environmental conferences and the WTO. The only member that has really embraced the grouping is Russia, which hopes it will evolve into an anti-West coalition thus bolstering its position. Unlikely with Indo-China relations being what they are.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_23694 » 30 Apr 2015 14:25

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 106992.cms

France, Qatar seal 6.3 billion euro Rafale fighter jet deal

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 30 Apr 2015 14:54

dhiraj wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/france-qatar-seal-6-3-billion-euro-rafale-fighter-jet-deal/articleshow/47106992.cms

France, Qatar seal 6.3 billion euro Rafale fighter jet deal


$290 million per unit.

Given that the Indian deal is still in negotiations, the Rafale production line will now service Egyptian & Qatari orders before ours. Backlog of 48 aircraft now.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby LakshO » 30 Apr 2015 16:35

Viv S wrote:
dhiraj wrote:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/france-qatar-seal-6-3-billion-euro-rafale-fighter-jet-deal/articleshow/47106992.cms

France, Qatar seal 6.3 billion euro Rafale fighter jet deal


$290 million per unit.


$290 million per unit @ INR63 comes to INR1827 crore per unit :eek: :shock:

INR1827 crore per unit x 36 = INR65,772 crores
INR1827 crore per unit x 126 = INR230,202 crores

Somewhere in Nai Dilli, money sure grows on trees :P

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Gyan » 30 Apr 2015 16:41

Price depends on the number of year of Maintenance built into it.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby member_28911 » 30 Apr 2015 16:49

Viv S wrote:$290 million per unit.

Given that the Indian deal is still in negotiations, the Rafale production line will now service Egyptian & Qatari orders before ours. Backlog of 48 aircraft now.


LakshO wrote:$290 million per unit @ INR63 comes to INR1827 crore per unit :eek: :shock:


Image Image Image

The deal includes a firm order for 24 jets with an option on 12 other planes, as well as missiles, the training in France of 36 pilots and 100 mechanicians.
http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1719

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Yagnasri » 30 Apr 2015 16:49

So either you pay now or pay later with further escalations as there is no other option but to pay off.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 30 Apr 2015 17:21

I think that Dassault have employed some legendary Gulfie "fixers" to get them these lucrative orders. The Rafale seemed destined for a zero export fate,but suddenly a genie has appeared bearing several orders! Is there master-fixer who has helped dassault in our deal also?

Some years ago,BAe acquired a Dutch construction co. that had inside line to the Soothi Barbarians. The famous Al Yamamah defence deal for aircraft which allegedly involved Maggie T's son Mark,details here.
Al-Yamamah: secret UK-Saudi arms deal
http://presstv.com/detail/2013/05/08/30 ... arms-deal/

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 30 Apr 2015 17:27

I think that Dassault have employed some legendary Gulfie "fixers" to get them these lucrative orders. The Rafale seemed destined for a zero export fate,but suddenly a genie has appeared bearing several orders! Is there master-fixer who has helped dassault in our deal also?


Dassault had been discussing Rafale sale for a lot many years with both the IAF and other customers (Qatar, UAE, Kuwait in the ME). Egypt had only European and Russian suppliers to choose from since US had not lifted arms sales by the time they announced the order (that came later). French swept in and gave them a financial deal that is as close to handing them a free reign as one can get. In India, the Rafale performed very well against its competition and was the L1. Here too, France had been working for a lot many years right from the time the Mirage upgrades, and potential further orders were being discussed.

They should pick at least 1 more customer relatively shortly in the Middle East as they are competing with the same lot of aircraft (F16, F18, F15, Typhoon,Gripen) since no F-35 is on offer in the ME yet and is unlikely to show up until the early to mid 2020's.

As you can see from the Qatar Announcement, the ME states are willing to pay more for Rafales (see Ankar's post above) then FMS customers paid for F-35's (Even those included, everything from simulators, training, to systems, sub-systems and YES weapons (through a seperate FMS) because it has been communicated to them that the F-35 is not going to be offered anytime soon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... 7Q20150222

It has been rumored for some time that Qatar would look to split its orders between the Rafale and the F-15E/SE. The latter remains to be seen but the former is likely to happen based on he link posted a couple of posts above.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Philip » 30 Apr 2015 17:45

Why not the Typhoon for the UAE states,Egypt? The Saudi deal was GBP 4.4B for 72 aircraft,say around $7B (?). Secondly,would the US actually sell the F-35 to the Arabs states,Saudis perhaps,even an inferior version,when it is Israel's weapon of advantage?

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 30 Apr 2015 17:56

I guess they prefer the Rafale since they already operate the M2K and have a relationship with Dassault as a supplier. There have been two statements regarding middle east sales for the F-35. One has been from the politicians in that we will not offer until the IDF stands up its first squadron, and the other has come from Frank Kendall as mentioned in the Link above in that they are not offering the F-35 in the short term.

There will be no inferior version developed because the current version has all the export clearances already approved (the only real reason to develop a vanilla version is if there are export restrictions to certain countries but the JSF program got all the technology approved quite early on in the program). The Saudi's are already getting F-15's delivered to them and are getting a massive upgrade on their existing ones. If Qatar goes in for the F-15E/SE it will most likely be for interoperability and weapons sharing with the Saudis.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Singha » 30 Apr 2015 18:31

290 mil sounds very high indeed, even for a F22!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby fanne » 30 Apr 2015 18:33

I bet Gold in that much tonnage maybe cheaper!!

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby brar_w » 30 Apr 2015 18:41

Singha wrote:290 mil sounds very high indeed, even for a F22!


There is no way to put an FMS price on an F-22 because it was never an export_cleared product. If you wanted to get export clearance for it you would have to fund those and that cost would be added to the FMS cost as well unless they changed the law which would have been harder given the political climate at the time (though the USAF tried). So depending upon the number of customers and the number of aircraft it could have been substantially higher. Remember, Japan was actually willing to pay any cost but was turned down.

Having said that, the Egypt deal is a good indication and you can see how that compares to other deals that involve a lot more than just an aircraft. As mentioned earlier every aircraft in fly away condition comes with an initial bed down of spares however FMS and export deals come with a lot more hardware, including simulators, spares, spare engines, diagnostic hardware, and basically all the unique infrastructure required to support the aircraft. On top of that you pile on weapons and here the french are amongst the most expensive in the WEST and the world. There is no escaping that, the MICA is more expensive then the equivalent AMRAAM and all the A2G munitions are significantly more expensive for the rafale. The Meteor is even more expensive. Additionally, these deals come with TRAINING for both he flight crew, instructors and everyone in between and assistance and support for X number of years as the fleet builds up.

Its been known that an FMS_Like deal for the Rafale (or Typhoon) would not be more than 15-20% cheaper than an equivalent deal for 5th generation aircraft (F-35, T-50). Yet from the numbers emerging its within just a few percentage points (single digit) even after weapons cost is added to the Korean FMS deal. Producing at 12 a year has a lot to do with this, and of course all the upgrades get divided over a much smaller total aircraft so even that is more expensive. Someone has to pay for those upgrades and 'future' capability that is offered (Versions that are likely to be operational 3-4 years from now).

PARIS, April 30 (Reuters) - Qatar has agreed to buy 24 Dassault Aviation-built Rafale fighter jets in a 6.3-billion-euro ($7 billion) deal, the French government said on Thursday, as the Gulf Arab state looks to boost its military firepower in an increasingly unstable region.

Tensions in the Middle East with conflicts in Yemen, Syria and Libya, as well as concerns over Shi'ite Muslim power Iran's growing influence in the area, have fuelled a desire across Sunni Gulf Arab states to modernise their military hardware.

The contract - the third this year for Dassault after deals to sell Rafale jets to Egypt and India - also includes MBDA missiles, and the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians by the French army, a French Defence Ministry official said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/ ... QJ20150430

http://www.defensenews.com/story/breaki ... /26622555/

As a reference the Korean FMS was $10.8 Billion without weapons but with everything else (Spares, training etc). Weapons package was an additional $790 Million. Compared to the Egypt deal, 24 F-35's would have cost (with weapons, spares and training) $4.6 Billion, 36 - $6.9 Billion and 50 - $9.6 Billion. Of course these are Low-Rate-Production deliveries while in the Development phase (when cost is historically the highest).

http://www.dsca.mil/sites/default/files ... 3-10_0.pdf
http://www.deagel.com/news/FMS-Korea-Re ... 11501.aspx

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 01 May 2015 01:32

Qatar buys 24 Rafale for $7 billion.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Viv S » 01 May 2015 02:18

India's deal is reportedly valued at $6 billion for 36 aircraft. Deal is still apparently in early negotiations.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


Rafale deal: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian likely to meet Manohar Parrikar next week

NEW DELHI: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is likely to arrive here next week to hold talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar to carry forward the over $6 billion deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets.

Defence Ministry sources said Drian will hold talks with Parrikar on Monday over the plan to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition as announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his recent visit to France.

"He is coming down to firm up the modalities as India wants the fighter aircraft as soon as possible," the sources said.

French sources, however, said a date is yet to be fixed and it has been announced by French President Francois Hollande that Drian will accompany him to Qatar on May 4.

"The French are trying to fix a date after that," the sources said. Qatar today announced its decision to acquire 24 Rafale fighter jets.

The deal with India is also likely to have a 30 per cent offset clause valuing to nearly $2 billion that the Indian private industry will be eyeing.

The defence sources have pegged the deal at over $6 billion including the cost of the 36 aircraft, armament and spares.

Modi and French President Hollande had on April 11 agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation for the 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender.

The delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF, and the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by IAF, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France, a joint statement had said.

Parrikar had said all future negotiations for purchase of French Rafale fighters would be through government to government route. He said further negotiation will decide if India goes in for more Rafale jets and if so, the number of it.

Economic Times

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby NRao » 01 May 2015 02:46

France Sells 24 Rafale Fighters to Qatar

Qatar will sign contracts for 24 Dassault Rafale fighter jets and MBDA missiles May 4, President François Hollande's office said Thursday.

The Rafale deal, which includes the missiles, training for 36 pilots and some 100 mechanics, is worth €6.3 billion ($7.1 billion), a Defense Ministry official said.

"At the invitation of Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, the Emir of Qatar, the president of the Republic will go to Doha on May 4 to attend the signing of contracts between Dassault Aviation and MBDA, and Qatar, as well as the intergovernmental agreement which sets the framework for cooperation between our two countries," the president's Elysée office said in a statement.

Hollande and al-Thani talked Wednesday and the latter confirmed Qatar will acquire 24 Rafales, the president's office said.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby Vipul » 01 May 2015 02:57

With Egyptian and Qatar deals (and possibly from UAE too) the production line is secured for Rafale for atleast for 5 years, the danger now is French will feel emboldened enough to ask India for a higher price. No way can they justify asking for $7 Billion for 24 jets from the Qatari's unless they have offered/promised something more potent then what is being offered to India. France will surely try to capitalize on what is now a desperate situation for the IAF.

India will need to finalise the contract soon to get the jets as Qatar will receive its first lot in 2018.

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Re: Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

Postby srai » 01 May 2015 08:32



That would mean 12 Qatari Mirage-2000s will be on the market again. These should already be at current Indian UPG (-5/9) standards. A quick way to add one more squadron with spares for $1 billion!
Last edited by srai on 01 May 2015 08:37, edited 1 time in total.


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