LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Apr 2015 09:25

The MK2 is nearing completion. This should now be pushed into high gear, so that it reached maturity by 2018-19.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 15 Apr 2015 09:31

There is no company in the world that is not currently an aviation system integrator that can set up a new assembly line in 5 years (one that can roll out a plane in 5 years from now).

As for LCA changes, I wish Nileshji luck with his company - hope he gets the funding and approval from IAF for his proposed changes.

btw, do we really think a bunch of folks who designed the plane itself are so incompetent that they cannot work to a brief any more? Lazy or hardworking, metaphor or not, there is not way to unpeel the current HAL team from the Tejas Mk-2 or the NLCA 2.
"They" will figure it out is also a lazy suggestion. With no wisdom attached, whatsoever.

imo, What MOD must do is chip in the additions to the expansion for Mk 1 - obo the IAF or whoever will operate the a/c.
I'd go further but there are mods who'd ban me for saying what in my opinion would be reasonable alternatives:
Fund the BSF if the IAF is unwilling, or set up a Aviation & Marine Corps command equivalent and assemble your teams now.
Create an Aviator Training wing outside the purview of the IAF - this is a 20 year plan for shipping out pilots trained for specific types. Tactic training is then the IAF or BSF or AMC's job.
Hive off the Tejas unit - bring in whoever you think can find the right people to run the unit at the highest industrial standards.

Melwyn · Post by **Melwyn** » 15 Apr 2015 11:05

For LCA Tejas, it’s now about months, not decades

NEW DELHI: India's defence R&D establishment will have to fire on all cylinders to fast-track the meandering Tejas light combat aircraft, which is still not fully operational or combat ready, if it does not want the Narendra Modi government to critically re-examine the entire project.

"Don't compare Rafale, a top-end fighter, to MiG-21s, which we will phase out in about six to 10 years. The replacement for MiG-21s will be Tejas or some other single-engine, lighter aircraft. Tejas ki maar bhi kaafi hai (Tejas packs a punch) and it's much better than a MiG-21, but has certain limitations," said Parrikar.

Though some interpreted this to mean impending doom for the Tejas project, a top official dismissed it by clarifying the government was "just keeping all options open" to make "numbers" with IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons when 44 are needed. "There could be scope for a single-engine fighter, which would be much cheaper than Rafale, somewhere between the capabilities of Rafale and Tejas," he said.

The fighter's final operational clearance (FOC), with integration of all weapons like guns, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well mid-air refuelling capability, is likely to be delayed beyond the re-revised deadline of December 2015.

The Tejas Mark-II version which the IAF actually wants — with more powerful engines, airframe changes, weight and drag reduction — will begin to come in only by 2021 or so. So, Parrikar will need to do a lot of pushing if he wants swifter deliveries of the multi-role fighters.

Mitsy · Post by **Mitsy** » 15 Apr 2015 11:06

kmkraoind wrote:
Let a private group partner with SAAB or Dassult and take up LCA-2 production, let that foreign vendor provide initial tooling and assembling line. Even better if 3 players (ADA, private player and their foreign partner) sit and redesign LCA-2 to the satisfaction of IAF..

"And the foreign partner G makes key suggestions on design changes to make LCA supposedly better
And the new design, having a lot of similarities with G NG can share a few critical components with their plane.
And a lot of tooling and machinary and parts for GNG can then be used for Tejas Mk2.. excellent synergy
And of course that tooling is provided by foreign partner, easier than developing from scratch here..
And this was supposed to be faster, only the rfp process by MOD took time...
And in 2025 we induct Tejas mk2/ MII Gripen NG."

Sorry for the sarcasm above, but we are too far ahead on MK2 path to let the effort go waste. ADA/ HAL have built some capabilities, which can be evolved n matured only if they remain lead designers and SIs.
The effort to build pvt sector MIC is already on through outsourcing of components.. and yes, this needs to be accelerated.
But please, lets not suggest foreign involvement in terms of one of the leads in design or manufacture.. Its dangerous. Too much time n effort has gone into LCA.. Not now when we are so close!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Apr 2015 11:13

DexterM wrote: All this talk of no new planes for 17 years by Parrikar is absolute BS - are we not getting new build Sukhois every year? WTF then was that all about? In reality, they're guided not by their own knowledge (being self-professed afficianados, they defer to IAF afsars and not HAL babus), but by whatever force requirements are being projected. HAL will not change - you can change the management, but what will you do about the unions? Nothing!

The Su-30MKI deal was signed when? Way back in 1996 IIRC. Since then has India signed any other deal for any other fighters? No. So, MP is right in a way - that no new deal for newer generation fighters has been signed since 17 years whereas the MRCA competition has been dragging on in some form or the other since 2001.

I might be wrong, but it is worth saying out loud right now: We're witnessing not an ultimatum to HAL or ADA, but a trial balloon for the Swedes to offer off the shelf Gripens (even though the NG will be ready for production only in 2018 if at all?). Everything else that we're repeating on this thread is the usual hopeful jingo bingo.

Tejas to gayo.

Did you not read what MP said about why do we have just 40 Tejas on order instead of 100?
Previous govt. did not think the MRCA deal through- DM

"I think we need to address this problem" Mr Parrikar said and suggested filling the gaps with more indigenous LCA or Light Combat Aircraft manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. "Today we have only 40 LCAs, why can't we have 100 of these?" he said.

If that isn't a clear indication of how this govt. looks at filling in the role of the MiG-21s then I don't know what is. If money was the issue with the Rafale "Make in India" program, then there is no way on earth that the Gripen NG will fill the role of a MiG-21 replacement. The Brazilian deal makes one thing clear as crystal- that the Gripen NG costs upwards of $100 per unit, almost approaching the price of a twin engine larger and heavier Rafale.

The pro-import lobbies can work all they want, but there is no way on earth that the gents in power will accept a $125-150 million light-medium fighter for a "Make in India" program. MP made it clear when he said that the ex-DM didn't do a proper oversight at all..he didn't seem to care that India didn't have Rs 1,00,000 crores to spend on the MRCA or where they'd find so much money to spend on it..the UPA govt. was content with just running a competition and having endless negotiations, all the while aware that the costs were simply massive.

a Gripen NG production run for 126 fighters would cost us upwards of $16 billion, going by the $4.6 billion cost for 36 Gripen fighters with local assembly (if you extrapolate the Brazilian deal values)..simply too costly, any way you cut it.

mody · Post by **mody** » 15 Apr 2015 11:23

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21864

From the above TOI report about now or never for LCA, the below statement of Parrikar, is what makes the most sense. HAL and DRDO, but mostly HAL, has to seriously start delivering, or GoI, will be forced to look at other options and there will be consequences for HAL. Though the statement makes a jingos heart sing. Upto 6 squadrons over the next 5 years, would mean, additional nos. of MK-1 or MK-1.5!!!!

" Incidentally, the original plan was that six squadrons each of MMRCA and Tejas would replace the existing 10 Mig-21 and four MiG-27 squadrons. Parrikar, on his part, said, "In the next four to five years, we can add about six LCA squadrons if we push HAL, which I am doing."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2015 11:33

yes its all upto HAL and ADA now. its their game to lose.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 15 Apr 2015 11:42

Kartik, I watched the video many times over and over again. All of what you said makes sense, except for the fact that Parrikar opened the gate for Gripen by saying Tejas or light single engined aircraft manufactured in India. Why would a sensible and logical person like Parrikar say this without understanding the gravity of that statement. If that wouldn't encourage the Chandigarhis, what would?

It's easy to be dismissive of that interview, but no... after stating everything that he did, it still came across as focused on what IAF needs, what we have on hand (to pay for the planes), and what we can afford (a light single engine aircraft). What's with the RM giving ultimatums to HAL via media? He just needs to do what I've been saying is the path forward - hive off the unit (TASL and at least 200 suppliers are already involved in their supply chain - we need someone to step up and take over manufacturing structural components so this unit can focus on integration and coordination), cut the union strings, and involve more folks from hi-tech manufacturing industries. This does not have to be a privatization campaign - just a rational and logical step by step approach to de-HAl-ize the one unit that will determine the future of Indian military aviation.

I don't see HAL shaping up in any way - they have some excellent folks but not everyone is as focused or realizes how important this single project is!

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Apr 2015 11:42

The fact that he has to "push" HAL doesn't bode well for them in the medium to long term. Slowly they're going to be squeezed out of development and manufacturing or at the very least, they will cease to be the dominant aeronautical player.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Apr 2015 11:48

DexterM wrote:Kartik, I watched the video many times over and over again. All of what you said makes sense, except for the fact that Parrikar opened the gate for Gripen by saying Tejas or light single engined aircraft manufactured in India. Why would a sensible and logical person like Parrikar say this without understanding the gravity of that statement. If that wouldn't encourage the Chandigarhis, what would?

It's easy to be dismissive of that interview, but no... after stating everything that he did, it still came across as focused on what IAF needs, what we have on hand (to pay for the planes), and what we can afford (a light single engine aircraft). What's with the RM giving ultimatums to HAL via media? He just needs to do what I've been saying is the path forward - hive off the unit (TASL and at least 200 suppliers are already involved in their supply chain - we need someone to step up and take over manufacturing structural components so this unit can focus on integration and coordination), cut the union strings, and involve more folks from hi-tech manufacturing industries. This does not have to be a privatization campaign - just a rational and logical step by step approach to de-HAl-ize the one unit that will determine the future of Indian military aviation.

I don't see HAL shaping up in any way - they have some excellent folks but not everyone is as focused or realizes how important this single project is!

lol, why is privatization such a bad word for you and some others in this thread? I mean, you go as far as saying "de-HAL-ize" the one unit and HAL not "shaping up in any way." Why not just lay out a privatization roadmap for all of them? I mean if you want long term growth in aeronautics how do you expect DPSU's to get us there in the least amount of time? Bite the bullet now.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 15 Apr 2015 11:52

RoyG, what privatization are you talking about - name one company that can be the lead integrator. You do understand the suppliers for this a/c exceed 500? And guess where most of them are based? INDIA! These are already private!

If you were remotely aware of the HAL culture, you would know the answer is not finding the unicorn private co (Mukes-bhai, please note), but finding the best way to change the ATTITUDES of local leadership and teams. As for your privatization bit, I suspect you have no experience with setting up a manufacturing unit. We cannot do this privatization bit without jeopardizing deadlines and thereby effectively nixing the LCA.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Apr 2015 12:05

I think the primary reason for DM Interview back in India immediately following NaMo requesting Hollande to consider 36 rafale under G2G programme is to give Dassault no hope for continuing with both the track. They would have option to manufacture in India under MII and 36 flyaway rafale was to reduce the shock and sink the visit. Now Dassault have to work hard not only to stave off the competitors but also to give better deals than it had under RFP. Time-frame for deliveries are compressed to two years meaning KSA would have to wait or share the production.

DM has made it clear that Rafale is not going to replace LCA. I don't know how else we could read his statement. He has favoured LCA while leaving a very small opening for other Single engine plane. But Gripen failed the technicals and if a new plane is to be shortlisted it has to go through IAF technicals which would take four years. Now IAF has a choice to live with shortage or follow another grueling round of technical qualifications or else support LCA. Supporting LCA means giving FOC as quickly as possible and to live with LCA MK1 as first few tranche in expected number ( now we know he expects 100). LCA MKII will follow subsequently. So it is a pipe dream of Arms lobby to think that LCA is dead . We are far too much invested in this.

Now the question is whether HAL would continue or some other player. I feel a JV/SPV would be formed leading to hiving off some divisions of HAL into a separate entity and giving stake to some private sector. Whoever is that I feel there would be no issues as long as it has India controls. NaMo has clearly set his sight on developing Military Industrial complex involving private players. This could be a hint of things to come.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Apr 2015 12:23

DexterM wrote:RoyG, what privatization are you talking about - name one company that can be the lead integrator. You do understand the suppliers for this a/c exceed 500? And guess where most of them are based? INDIA! These are already private!

If you were remotely aware of the HAL culture, you would know the answer is not finding the unicorn private co (Mukes-bhai, please note), but finding the best way to change the ATTITUDES of local leadership and teams. As for your privatization bit, I suspect you have no experience with setting up a manufacturing unit. We cannot do this privatization bit without jeopardizing deadlines and thereby effectively nixing the LCA.

Privatization road map doesn't = overnight unicorn private mukesh bhai something.

Please stop with the BS of changing attitudes, para dropping professionals, and all that. It's a structural problem. You have one major DPSU - HAL. Slowly privates will eat up more chunk of the work share including R&D. This is an inevitability if you want to grow the aeronautics sector and create jobs.

And please, don't lecture me on setting up a defence manufacturing unit, like you have any idea yourself...In any case, keep dreaming about "ATTITUDES of local leadership and teams." Like this is supposed to be the magic bullet that cures DPSU culture.

As far as HAL culture is concerned, a family member just retired from HAL and talks to me all the time about the pathetic work culture there.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Apr 2015 12:30

chaanakya wrote:I think the primary reason for DM Interview back in India immediately following NaMo requesting Hollande to consider 36 rafale under G2G programme is to give Dassault no hope for continuing with both the track. They would have option to manufacture in India under MII and 36 flyaway rafale was to reduce the shock and sink the visit. Now Dassault have to work hard not only to stave off the competitors but also to give better deals than it had under RFP. Time-frame for deliveries are compressed to two years meaning KSA would have to wait or share the production.

DM has made it clear that Rafale is not going to replace LCA. I don't know how else we could read his statement. He has favoured LCA while leaving a very small opening for other Single engine plane. But Gripen failed the technicals and if a new plane is to be shortlisted it has to go through IAF technicals which would take four years. Now IAF has a choice to live with shortage or follow another grueling round of technical qualifications or else support LCA. Supporting LCA means giving FOC as quickly as possible and to live with LCA MK1 as first few tranche in expected number ( now we know he expects 100). LCA MKII will follow subsequently. So it is a pipe dream of Arms lobby to think that LCA is dead . We are far too much invested in this.

Now the question is whether HAL would continue or some other player. I feel a JV/SPV would be formed leading to hiving off some divisions of HAL into a separate entity and giving stake to some private sector. Whoever is that I feel there would be no issues as long as it has India controls. NaMo has clearly set his sight on developing Military Industrial complex involving private players. This could be a hint of things to come.

This makes too much sense. Don't trust HAL to listen and change. They have an ATTITUDE problem after all.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Apr 2015 12:43

I've posted this many a time over the years,"a fraud upon the nation",was how a former AM,VCAS intimately associated with some of our indigenous successes,described the LCA programme.He warned Dr. Kalaam about the tall tales emanating rom the various arms of the project,GTRE.etc.,and about the huge effort required for the project to succeed ,key factor the engine,but to no avail. Dr APJAK then made his infamous "200 LCAs by 2013" in 2003. We haven't even recd. the first twenty for the first sqd. as yet! The AM said that all parties were complicit in the "fraud",chief of all the primary stakeholder,the MOD/GOI. With a lukewarm attitude towards indigenisation,indigenous projects,coming from the very top,why should the DRDO/DPSUs bother about successes other than to retain their huge inflated budgets for the various programmes? The reason is very obvious,"pigs snouts in the trough of pelf".

This govt. has come into power on the promise of rooting out corruption which plagued the UPA-2 and why it was annihilated in the last elections. UPA/Cong. crony capitalism was the major reason for the electoral devacle. The new dispensation has been voted in with enormous goodwill and high expectations.We've heard a lot of slogans about "make in India",etc.,and sincerely hope that with the help of an ever eager babudom,the crony capitalist corporate corps do not yet again get their tentacles into the system by bewildering the political decision makers with slanted advice leading them to fall into the trap set for them.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2015 12:46

the only way to fix the attitude problem is to downsize some of the bloated payroll and improve process and tooling ?
or atleast a VRS + hiring freeze to bring down nos over 5 yrs. like promotion and bonus to performance than tenure?

political fallout will be limited as HAL has just 20,000 employees in blr

if we look back at PSU banks 20 yrs ago, they were like HAL only. inward looking, uncaring of customer convenience....slowly the emergence of ICICI, HDFC and others forced them to tone up or risk losing all the high value urban accounts which make profits for them. nowadays many are much more friendly, automated etc. SBI continues to be arrogant as they have most of the Govt treasury accounts.

if you want to boil the frog, the heat has to be increased in measured way....not a panic way which leads to mass desertions....make people perform but give them hope as well to keep it going. HAL will not become Boeing in 10 yrs it will take decades.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 15 Apr 2015 12:58

one of the biggest problems for the lca program is overhyping of the Mk2 supposed capabilities and projecting it as panacea before even achieving FOC on Mk1 and investigating block development.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Apr 2015 13:03

LCA is bad!

1. We must not allow mota bhai into defense manufacturing because he is a pig!
2. Absolutely NO private manufacturing in defense. What will happen to the DPSU? Explicit call to national interest.
3. DPSU's can't make or can't make enough or of good enough quality!
4. We must absolutely NOT import from France or Germany or US.

All of the above in the name of upholding *national interest*. The same folks continue to provide one or some or all of the reasons in one discussion/post or the other.

So we must import and wonlee from natasha and that is in national interest. Wah!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Apr 2015 13:21

What still leaves me bewildered is the almost total silence on the cost aspect and/affecting the IAF's planned future fleet composition. We simply do not have the money for luxury cars. A clear figure of funding must be drawn up and the IAF learn "to cut its coat according to its cloth" .The best cost-effective alternatives must be seriously considered if the LCA is further delayed. Of the lot of alternatives for the LCA's role,from the cost angle, the Gripen and MIG-29/35 would be the two cheapest aircraft. Since the expectation of performance is merely an improvement (10-15% say some experts) of that of a MIG-21,one is sure that both these aircraft would easily meet that requirement.When a fig. of 40+ sqds. are needed,the Q to be asked is at what cost? Then one can decide whether the aircraft is to be single-engine or not,as for example,a JSF costs well over $100M!

However,having gone this far with the LCA,the GOI cannot allow it to fail. Let's hope that the DM's hint was to warn HAL to deliver or perish,and by perish one dumps those responsible for failure.A complete revamp of the ADA/HAL's top brass may be required After all,they would've squandered billions of the tax-payer's hard earmed money.Putin did not hesitate to fire famous scientists ,with track records of success,after repeated failures (Bulava missile). Our heads should similarly be also held responsible.This has been the curse of the DPSUs and their patchy performance,no accountability whatsoever,with the GOI least concerned.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Apr 2015 13:24

DexterM wrote:Kartik, I watched the video many times over and over again. All of what you said makes sense, except for the fact that Parrikar opened the gate for Gripen by saying Tejas or light single engined aircraft manufactured in India. Why would a sensible and logical person like Parrikar say this without understanding the gravity of that statement. If that wouldn't encourage the Chandigarhis, what would?

Let them be encouraged. It doesn't make any difference now. The push to replace the Tejas with the Gripen could have worked back in the mid-2000s when the Tejas program was in its flight testing phase and progress was slow. back then they could've convinced the govt. to abandon the program and adopt a Gripen variant instead. Now its too late and the costs of the Gripen NG program too high to have it adopted. MP is simply applying pressure on HAL and ADA to wrap up development quickly and the assembly line churning out Tejas Mk1s quickly.

I don't see HAL shaping up in any way - they have some excellent folks but not everyone is as focused or realizes how important this single project is!

HAL suffers from a host of afflictions that plague PSUs. It won't be easy to get them streamlined and delivering on schedule, but to some degree the problem lies with the IAF's way of looking at the program too. They were willing to accept transitional specced in-work aircraft as long as they were imported - case in point the Su-30Ks and Jaguars, but when it comes to the Tejas, unless and until it is proven, they won't accept it. Anyhow, the DM will need to think out of the box to fix the Tejas production issue and get the IAF to order more Mk1s or Mk1+ fighters. Letting things slide, the AK Antony way just won't work anymore.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 15 Apr 2015 15:48

I agree, and it takes two to tango. If the HAL can pull this off, it will gain a lot of IAFs confidence. This may help in in IAF taking the leap of faith it took with SU and Jags.

Being honest with the IAF and getting AMCA out without significant delays will be the icing on the cake. Some will say wishful thinking though

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Apr 2015 15:56

P Chitkara wrote:I agree, and it takes two to tango. If the HAL can pull this off, it will gain a lot of IAFs confidence. This may help in in IAF taking the leap of faith it took with SU and Jags.

Being honest with the IAF and getting AMCA out without significant delays will be the icing on the cake. Some will say wishful thinking though

Why is AMCA HAL's headache right now ? It is more of DRDO/ADA thing right now and for the next 10 years.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Apr 2015 17:31

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 18m18 minutes ago

#TejasSPSeries LCA Tejas Division of HAL adds 6 gen-next equipment for machining ferrous and non-ferrous components.

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ @writetake · 13m 13 minutes ago

#NLCA NP2 undergoes ‘hot refuelling’ at HAL facilities in Bangalore recently. Hit https://www.facebook.com/Tarmak007 for details

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Apr 2015 18:04

pankajs wrote:
✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 18m18 minutes ago

#TejasSPSeries LCA Tejas Division of HAL adds 6 gen-next equipment for machining ferrous and non-ferrous components.
✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ @writetake · 13m 13 minutes ago

#NLCA NP2 undergoes ‘hot refuelling’ at HAL facilities in Bangalore recently. Hit https://www.facebook.com/Tarmak007 for details

Two guys working (okay make it 3 with the pilot) and total 10 men standing around and sitting around. This is exactly like the Jayaganar BSNL office. A whole lot of folks hanging around in the hallways and manning counters and every thing , but zero customers around, but your work will never get done! You can never get a line man to come and fix the noise in the line, need the modem to be setup, no, they dont know the set up parameters or even tell you that on the phone, or just put it up in some website, but rather, "Aaphish thagondu banni saar!". Disgusted, you google around and find the BSNL set up parameters and you set it up yourself, and the f*ckers have the gall to bill you Rs 200 as "Setup" costs, when they did diddly squat.

Frankly you can get rid of around 7 guys in that picture , especially the guys sitting around the damn thing will still get done!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Apr 2015 18:06

HAL does need to be whipped into shape but who is going to do it?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2015 18:09

srin wrote:
P Chitkara wrote:I agree, and it takes two to tango. If the HAL can pull this off, it will gain a lot of IAFs confidence. This may help in in IAF taking the leap of faith it took with SU and Jags.

Being honest with the IAF and getting AMCA out without significant delays will be the icing on the cake. Some will say wishful thinking though
Why is AMCA HAL's headache right now ? It is more of DRDO/ADA thing right now and for the next 10 years.

I sincerely hope the Air Force is taking an interest in AMCA. There is no word about that, least as far as I have heard/read.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 15 Apr 2015 18:21

I wrote this earlier. LCA guys take so much time to perfect "advanced technologies" and to "integrate these technology for demonstration purpose" . We end up with outdated stuff. it is as if we have technology demonstrators onlee. They do not have to make the real stuff that work. WTF is it a science museum? DF has done right thing. Perform or go. Dimag kharab kar rakha hei.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 15 Apr 2015 18:24

rsingh wrote:I wrote this earlier. LCA guys take so much time to perfect "advanced technologies" and to "integrate these technology for demonstration purpose" . We end up with outdated stuff. it is as if we have technology demonstrators onlee. They do not have to make the real stuff that work. WTF is it a science museum? DF has done right thing. Perform or go. Dimag kharab kar rakha hei.

How many years of research experience you have in aeronautics or in any field ???

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 15 Apr 2015 18:30

shiv wrote:I sincerely hope the Air Force is taking an interest in AMCA. There is no word about that, least as far as I have heard/read.

Sir right now any positive news about MK.2 itself will be more than heartening or for that matter HAL's plan for SP-2 and other MK.1 schedule and FOC. Not sure about any kind of urgency

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2015 18:40

dhiraj wrote:
shiv wrote:I sincerely hope the Air Force is taking an interest in AMCA. There is no word about that, least as far as I have heard/read.
Sir right now any positive news about MK.2 itself will be more than heartening or for that matter HAL's plan for SP-2 and other MK.1 schedule and FOC. Not sure about any kind of urgency

I believe that if the Air Force does not show an interest in AMCA now it will be a dead duck. They have to get involved right at the beginning to understand the engineering capacity of the country and what can be done realistically. If the Air Force does not do that I fear the worst for AMCA. The Air Force is not interested in LCA, not interested in IJT, not interested in HTT 40. the Air Force wants Rafale and is getting it. The Air Force is already involved with PAKFA and is not getting what it wants. The Air Force wants Pilatus and has got it.

In the long term this is bad for the country. the Air Force, at a very expensive and sophisticated level. behaves like a chowkidar outside your house who looks after your security as long as you provide him his lathi. The Air Force is not behaving like a member of the family who is directly invested in seeing what the family members must jointly do to ensure that they can manage security without employing and outside agency/chowkidar.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2015 18:42

Philip wrote:What still leaves me bewildered is the almost total silence on the cost aspect and/affecting the IAF's planned future fleet composition. We simply do not have the money for luxury cars. A clear figure of funding must be drawn up and the IAF learn "to cut its coat according to its cloth" .The best cost-effective alternatives must be seriously considered if the LCA is further delayed. Of the lot of alternatives for the LCA's role,from the cost angle, the Gripen and MIG-29/35 would be the two cheapest aircraft. Since the expectation of performance is merely an improvement (10-15% say some experts) of that of a MIG-21,one is sure that both these aircraft would easily meet that requirement.When a fig. of 40+ sqds. are needed,the Q to be asked is at what cost? Then one can decide whether the aircraft is to be single-engine or not,as for example,a JSF costs well over $100M!

However,having gone this far with the LCA,the GOI cannot allow it to fail. Let's hope that the DM's hint was to warn HAL to deliver or perish,and by perish one dumps those responsible for failure.A complete revamp of the ADA/HAL's top brass may be required After all,they would've squandered billions of the tax-payer's hard earmed money.Putin did not hesitate to fire famous scientists ,with track records of success,after repeated failures (Bulava missile). Our heads should similarly be also held responsible. This has been the curse of the DPSUs and their patchy performance, no accountability whatsoever, with the GOI least concerned.

Add IAF also to the mix along with the MOD bureaucrats.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Apr 2015 18:49

^^^ Shiv Sir, has the IAF agreed to the base requirements for the AMCA? There was news some months ago that IAF has agreed to reasonable specs and not brochure specs for AMCA but what are those and have those been settled in writing? No scope creep from here on?

Secondly, with the plane being just a drawing now, LCA Mk1, NLCA and LCA Mk2 being under development, engines not yet finalised, are the time lines being announced (I have a range from 2019 -2025) in various reports based on some serious Project Management schedule or are these an educated estimate? What or how could IAF involve itself, without the fighter jocks vs. scientists ego becoming drawing room discussions across the country?

I seriously wish IAF opens up on its requirements from a Stealth Fighter. The doctrine or the part that is available is ambiguous.

The IAF’s Doctrine is to acquire strategic reach and capabilities across the spectrum of conflict that serve the ends of military
diplomacy, nation building and enable force projection within India’s strategic area of influence.

(from pg 46 of this http://mod.gov.in/writereaddata/AR1415.pdf MOD annual report)

The only way to avoid a LCA like blame game is open declaration of QRs and benchmarking in open domain. Otherwise, behind the veil of half secrecy (selective leaks) it will be "Supari Journalism" is the winner story all over again.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Apr 2015 19:33

DexterM wrote:kmkraoind, you think the IAF will wait ten years for this new design to fructify if they're not willing to wait three years currently?

Unless we are going to war very soon IAF would have to wait as they have already waited for 18 years, last order being in 1996 for SU30MKI(rest are follow on)

LCA could be very near to FOC as we know.

HAL production could be ramped up if adequate funds are pumped into it and enough orders for LCA MK1 or 1.5 or whatever is given say about 100 with promise of another 100 for MKII. That makes for 11 Sqdrn of LCA.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Apr 2015 19:46

pankajs wrote:LCA is bad!

1. We must not allow mota bhai into defense manufacturing because he is a pig!
2. Absolutely NO private manufacturing in defense. What will happen to the DPSU? Explicit call to national interest.
3. DPSU's can't make or can't make enough or of good enough quality!
4. We must absolutely NOT import from France or Germany or US.

All of the above in the name of upholding *national interest*. The same folks continue to provide one or some or all of the reasons in one discussion/post or the other.

So we must import and wonlee from natasha and that is in national interest. Wah!

+10000...

You hit the nail. spot on. Every Indian's Dream of Romance with Gori and not some saanwali saloni. Well for some at least.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Apr 2015 19:51

Philip wrote: .A complete revamp of the ADA/HAL's top brass may be required .

Entire management team of HAL, ADA and IAF are shivering in their dhoti. Avinash chander is still fresh in their mind.

No extension to anybody.

Document leakage and arrest of low level employees and high level under scanner. Two different agencies probing.

FS, HS removed unceremoniously.

Connect the dots.

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 15 Apr 2015 19:55

Latest LCA Tejas Update

The LCA Tejas has completed hot and high & winter trials, including cold soak starting tests of its engine and ensuing flight performance. The success of the January 2015 tests allows the flight team to heave a sigh of relief given that there had been trepidation about full load trials at high altitude.According to ADA, â€œWith three consecutive start-ups of its engine after overnight soak in extreme cold (around -15ÂºC) conditions of Ladakh, that too without any external assistance, Tejas, the Indian Light Combat Aircraft has achieved yet another rare distinction.Starting the fighter aircraft under such extreme condition without any external assistance or heating is a technology breakthrough.

Progress on LCA Mk.2 cockpit
The look and feel of the all-glass cockpit that the LCA Tejas Mk.2 will sport is fructifying with the Aeronautical Development Agency announcing that the main display will involve two 6Ã—8 Smart MFDs and one 5Ã—5 smart MFD in centre console based on the latest and best design technologies currently available in the market.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Apr 2015 20:00

chaanakya wrote:
DexterM wrote:kmkraoind, you think the IAF will wait ten years for this new design to fructify if they're not willing to wait three years currently?
Unless we are going to war very soon IAF would have to wait as they have already waited for 18 years, last order being in 1996 for SU30MKI(rest are follow on)

LCA could be very near to FOC as we know.

HAL production could be ramped up if adequate funds are pumped into it and enough orders for LCA MK1 or 1.5 or whatever is given say about 100 with promise of another 100 for MKII. That makes for 11 Sqdrn of LCA.

That is an important question. Is "War" ours to wait for? Do we decide or have we decided the dates for the wars we've fought? What has changed that we can be sure that we will set the agenda?

If we can wait for the war and set a deadline for it, great. All else, can be worked backwards. Else, always have enough deterrent to make it unaffordable / undesirable for the enemy.

If there is matrix for this, which is used in terms of understanding deterrence in conventional terms we could extrapolate how much and what we need to have (minimum) to keep war off the table.

And if the position is, since we are nuclear, there will be no war, first cut down on that huge standing army and also air force. If we still need 42 sqns, ask why not 42 LCA or Single Engine sqns? We are OK when the IAF says it is effectively down to 25. There is no war, so why are we buying more?

Are we prioritizing correctly?

How long can IAF wait and what risks do we take in delaying by 18 years is a good question? Should we wait more? That is another good question?

If defence is a priority, why do we spend only 1.75% of GDP on defence and if Made In India is important why do we spend such a small amount of that 1.75% on local R&D? Yet we have one of the largest Standing Armies (not counting any reserves). Add BSF, ITBP, RR, Assam Rifles, CISF under MHA. Did I forget the TA? Why so many men in uniform if there is low threat perception?

I hope the answer is not this- we can afford to drop a few men of the roster but we cannot afford capital expenditure on defence?

(Apologies for the OT and discordant note)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2015 20:02

Sagar G wrote:
rsingh wrote:I wrote this earlier. LCA guys take so much time to perfect "advanced technologies" and to "integrate these technology for demonstration purpose" . We end up with outdated stuff. it is as if we have technology demonstrators onlee. They do not have to make the real stuff that work. WTF is it a science museum? DF has done right thing. Perform or go. Dimag kharab kar rakha hei.
How many years of research experience you have in aeronautics or in any field ???

Your question is a non-sequitor. Such attitude does not help discussion.

One can easily see that DRDO/HAL gives out generic statements shifting milestones without accountability.
One doesn't have to have many years of R&D to see what's happening.

The question is have the milestones shifted or not if so why?

rsingh has a right to point out emperor has no clothes. Did the people ask if the little boy had been to Emperor's court before?

Its for you to claim they are invisible clothes to be seen with special glasses.

Shiv started two thread to find root cause. There is something rotten in the system that money and resources get allocated and spent and nothing comes out.
If they have difficulty own up and get help to solve it.

By not being transparent they are leading to much more problems like no Plan B.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2015 20:03

deejay wrote:What or how could IAF involve itself, without the fighter jocks vs. scientists ego becoming drawing room discussions across the country?

I seriously wish IAF opens up on its requirements from a Stealth Fighter. The doctrine or the part that is available is ambiguous.
The IAF’s Doctrine is to acquire strategic reach and capabilities across the spectrum of conflict that serve the ends of military diplomacy, nation building and enable force projection within India’s strategic area of influence.

Good post because you have quoted from what the IAF wants.

The question that I have is that is the DRDO/ADA AMCA plan a copycat technology wild goose chase like LCA was based on "Woh log kya kar rahen hain" - ie Amriki, Chini Russi etc or is the AMCA plan in consonance with what the IAF feels it ought to be doing - that is:

..to acquire strategic reach and capabilities across the spectrum of conflict that serve the ends of military diplomacy, nation building and enable force projection within India’s strategic area of influence.

For us on BRF at least I think, for own understanding it would be a good idea to decipher the IAF's statement. I think some grasp of what the future of air warfare is likely to be would be a good idea.

The question about how the IAF should involve itself is a valid one. Has the DRDO invited the IAF to involve itself? Have letters been written? Has the IAF replied? Are the development plans based on the IAF's reply -or is everyone simply saying something and not actually communicating. This worries me in many ways.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2015 20:07

jagga, Thanks. Is that update on the LCA page at ADA website or is it another informed leak?

shiv, The MOD 2014-2015 report has details of IAF and DRDO cooperation in the chapter on DRDO.

Yes it exists now. Earlier it was not. However the IN-DRDO synergy seems more extensive. This despite most of the DRDO R&D budget goes to Aviation related items.

Will post page numbers later.