LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

[member_28990]

Considering these hiccups (and we don't know how far this report is accurate) AND the astronomical prices being quoted for the Rafales, perhaps a Gripen might seem tempting.

Interestingly, both these reports - the one damning the LCA (on performance) and the other damning the Rafale (on price), are from the Economic Times - makes you wonder...

Report is accurate sir - check out the page 23 of the pdf shared by kmkraoind-ji

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618

Aha. And here's the CAG report on the LCA- Tejas program. Read the whole rockamolly yourself. http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/home ... of2015.pdf …

Its a 73-page PDF document.

[brar_w]

The first news-story was written because the negotiations are most certainly under way with the French Defense Minister visiting. The second is based on a report released recently. Had the report not been released at the same time, they wouldn't have had to write about it and its findings whether accurate or not

[Shreeman]

A gripen factory in maharashtra is the only solution. TATA can produce this in a year.

[Karan M]

Is there an older CAG report or any other report which analyses the ASR themselves? I mean how was the Air Force allowed to set ASRs which we have not been able to meet in 30 years? If the Baseline Requirements are unattainable another CAG report on it is not going to bring to light anything new. That essentially means that the IAF aimed too high without assessing the state of the domestic research and industrial capability.

As if they can do this. They lack the domain expertise to do anything but claim "x was not met by y at z cost". That's all they have been good for and will be good for. In the US, their GAO actually gets specialists from RAND & industry itself to train their folks or chip in where the auditors clearly admit they lack depth. In India, CAG considers itself above all & hence makes far reaching claims without having run any program itself. Good fodder for journalists & opposition though.

[Wickberg]

Is there an older CAG report or any other report which analyses the ASR themselves? I mean how was the Air Force allowed to set ASRs which we have not been able to meet in 30 years? If the Baseline Requirements are unattainable another CAG report on it is not going to bring to light anything new. That essentially means that the IAF aimed too high without assessing the state of the domestic research and industrial capability.

As if they can do this. They lack the domain expertise to do anything but claim "x was not met by y at z cost". That's all they have been good for and will be good for. In the US, their GAO actually gets specialists from RAND & industry itself to train their folks or chip in where the auditors clearly admit they lack depth. In India, CAG considers itself above all & hence makes far reaching claims without having run any program itself. Good fodder for journalists & opposition though.

Then thank god we all here have you, who are the expert in these things....

[VibhavS]

As if they can do this. They lack the domain expertise to do anything but claim "x was not met by y at z cost". That's all they have been good for and will be good for. In the US, their GAO actually gets specialists from RAND & industry itself to train their folks or chip in where the auditors clearly admit they lack depth. In India, CAG considers itself above all & hence makes far reaching claims without having run any program itself. Good fodder for journalists & opposition though.

Sir, they might not have the expertise. Then they should get somebody to carry out a development audit. Coming out with a report which states: "53 Deviations from ASR, cost over runs, failure to develop" etc smacks of at best of sensationalism and at worst deliberate sabotage. They are dooming a project whose success is critical to our Air Force's (even though they wont admit it). Secondly we all know that the Air Force and Army set the bar too high for local dev, other wise they fear they might just get working equipment locally developed forever dooming their foreign equipment buying sprees.

What I find really disturbing is the complete lack of discussion on LCA Navy. Is that not under the same ambit?

[member_22539]

Then thank god we all here have you, who are the expert in these things....

We all know what you are an "expert" at. Someone whispers gripen and lo behold, he appears. Will you appear in person if I say gripen 3 times in front of the mirror?

[Singha]

justt to pick two points the SPJ is not internal even on the MKI as we use a israeli stick type pod. sure its a waste of one pylon in a small plane but maybe room can be found in the mk2 or they can add another small pylon on other side from the LDP pylon under the centerline...it will have good 180' fov from under the plane.

also without clear listing of these 53 parameters, what was the ASR target and what is achieved one cannot comment . we all know how 'logical' IAF and IA ASR sometimes tend to be - take the best of m2k + add the best of F16 + add masala from the raptor and we get a local ASR.
all the tfta kit that was sent for IA arty trials also roundly failed many tests and most dropped out only the FH77B05 was finally able to meet I think.

about the imported like radar, radome, engine, MFDs sure we all know that and more. in due course when volumes are there these things will get slowly localized like the uttam radar, local composite makers, samtel MFDs , astra, 100k gliding bomb etc......the only long term problem is having a local engine of 404+ level which is a major challenge.

[Singha]

^^ I am not at all worried by any of the cag report. the only worries are right now completion of BVR weapons and radar testing and any A2G munitions and night/bad weather combat tests. they should also throw in some 2 week DACT with M2k, su30 and Mig29 in tacde in a war game setting to find out how it shapes up at the deep end of the pond in wvr and bvr scenarios rather than just complete the test points. have it try to intercept jags and mig27s trying to sneak in fast at low level also.

FCS testing always throws up new unknowns that no test plan can always cover.

[Sid]

This time I have a bad feeling about LCA. With this "yes we can" Gov, powerful arms lobby and combined weight of IAF can crush LCA. All three parties are working independently, but together they will yeild same result for LCA.

[vina]

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618

Aha. And here's the CAG report on the LCA- Tejas program. Read the whole rockamolly yourself. http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/home ... of2015.pdf …

Its a 73-page PDF document.

[/quote]

Well, read the entire 78 page document. Nothing new and unknown there. The bulk of the "waivers" are temp with a promise of fix by FOC. All the rest of the stuff is pretty known.

One thing is sure. No aircraft in the world today can meet the 1985 ASR in respect to weight, volume etc. Note to Gripen fan boys, the Gripen wont either. Some of the "issues" that are well known and fix worked on back then.

1) Useable fuel, (some was unuseable , i think the wing tanks) because of CG shifts. This was meant to be fixed with passive/active fuel proportioning pumps/valves

2) system level fixes on chaff/flare dispenser, jammer,rwr, these are things that would have got fine tuned

Reading the report fully, the major clogged Pakistan was the 1997 "update" of the RFP by the IAF and cascading updates. The key bottlneck was the MMR development and intergration (again well known) and the IAF requirement to integrate a non Mil Std 1533 & 1760, legacy R73 and Russian weapons with a bus and interface of different standard and demand full functionality including HMDS integration would have taken some serious IT/Vity work (protocol conversion from Russian to Western standard and testing and everything)..Dumb. If they had just gone with a Python V, itwould have been much faster.

But frankly ADA should not be doing this kind of IT/Vity work. All it takes is some $5 mil and throw it at one of the dozens of shops in Banglore that can do it and you would have had an army of IT/Vity DOOs getting it done in no time. The R73 IT/Vity work should have simply been outsourced.

The program is getting to completion. We are over the hump, just need to cross the finish line and start churning out the numbers.

A note of caution. India should standardize on a widely available databus. For eg, the Frenchies , while ostensibly adopting the STANAG 3910, have done the same old same old of PAL/SECAM of yesteryears and done a twist on that. So the Rafale will be a unique bird and you can integrate any weapon you want , save french on it. Same with the Mirage 2000. That Digibus is unique and wont work anywhere else.

India should simply adopt the current Nato standard and insisit that every weapon/missile/whatever it buys be compliant. Will save us a lot of pain and vendor lock.

The IAF come across as idiotic with assertions like that weapon specs have to be as close to operation for "effectiveness" . Okay .. So, the F35's weapon spec and interfaces should be defined only 2 years before IOC and see how far that flies !

[Singha]

IAF has no experience with working long term with industry to develop products as usaf has done over decades. in their love of khan gear, they miss the important underlying lessons. just as the avg indian thinks khan is all about "freedom", love, food, iphones for all and big TVs and lest we forget "democracy" USAF has huge program offices and stuff like that to work with vendors for products and classified programs.

IAF aint getting no hot gori plane, not unless the Govt has installed a printing press to print $60 billion of jaali notes to pay for additional 200 rafales or gripens.

[Philip]

Apologies to the JSF,should this td instead be renamed as "Talisman or Turkey",what?!

Well,if that's the true picture,then only a MK-2 will save the LCA. The IAF will refuse to order more than the first 40 MK-1s ordered,which going by the report is anyone's guess as to when they will eventually arrive.The failure of developing a basic trainer version cannot be understood,as even the IN have their NLCA prototypes flying. In the article by the AM Math. in VAYU,he metnions that at one time,upset at the tardy progress,etc,the IAF withdrew from the programme,a mistake in his opinion,where it should've pressurised the GOI/MOD to take charge of the programme just as the IN was doing with warships. The weight problems,etc. have been discussed on BRF quite some time ago,and attempting to shove so much of ept. into such a small airframe as the LCA has proved to be flawed.

The Swedes must be rubbing their hands with glee.Just wait for news of a "White Knight" (from Scandinavia) rushing to India to "save" the LCA project,MK-2,while modestly offering his own "steed" called Gripen,to the IAF as an interim solution!

[Singha]

as mentioned unless someone is willing to pay up $30-60 bil no gori planes. IAF will have to sit with a fast depleting force and complain all they want, but can the Govt spare money from vital vote getting projects like infra and farm aid with elections just 4 years away in 2019...no.

so its their call, work with the makers to fix issues to the extent possible, strike off unreasonable items and run with the mk1.5 or sit and wait for a long time for the uber Mk2.

[JE Menon]

>>Then thank god we all here have you, who are the expert in these things....

Actually, you may say that. Karan M has expert level knowledge in these things.

No more baiting by you, please.

[Yagnasri]

In the end it will be GOI decision. They have to decide and decide fast if they want LCA in IAF or not. Simply allowing things to go as they are is no option now as there is serious requirement is there for ACs.

[JE Menon]

And this is the last paragraph of the Conclusions section of the report, the final conclusion, as it were (bolding by me):

"Considering that measures taken by IAF to upgrade other aircraft were of
temporary nature and induction of LCA was crucial for maintaining the
operational preparedness of IAF in order to overcome the drawdown of
squadron strength permanently, the LCA programme needs to be expeditiously
completed to cater to the needs of the Defence Forces so as to avoid import of
the fighter aircraft of this class and to ensure self-reliance in the long run. "

[brar_w]

Is there an older CAG report or any other report which analyses the ASR themselves? I mean how was the Air Force allowed to set ASRs which we have not been able to meet in 30 years? If the Baseline Requirements are unattainable another CAG report on it is not going to bring to light anything new. That essentially means that the IAF aimed too high without assessing the state of the domestic research and industrial capability.

As if they can do this. They lack the domain expertise to do anything but claim "x was not met by y at z cost". That's all they have been good for and will be good for. In the US, their GAO actually gets specialists from RAND & industry itself to train their folks or chip in where the auditors clearly admit they lack depth. In India, CAG considers itself above all & hence makes far reaching claims without having run any program itself. Good fodder for journalists & opposition though.

One must remember that auditors and their "tribe" loose pretty much all purpose if they side with the folks they are auditing. GAO and other auditing bodies in the US are no different. They have made some rather absurd claims, found non-existing faults, drawn a 20 page charge sheet on programs and ended the recommendations section with "We do not have any recommendations at this moment" etc etc. In 2001 they decided that they'd try to out do themselves and try to calculate the weapons systems cost over the entire lifetime of just one particular system (JSF). They came up with a number that they considered as the cost to design+build+operate+Fuel+Upgrade+retire(dispose) of each and every 2443 F-35, from the moment it took first flight(2006) to the moment the last one is retired in 2065. What else, while they were at it they made a call on the cost of fuel, its inflation and for maximum impact came up with a number in "2065 dollars" instead of today's money. They didn't do a historic perspective of what it had cost to maintain previous fighters over 50-60 years, and they haven't done this for any other system. As a result, they were constantly at loggerheads with the services to a point that these same estimates have come down by the total acquisition cost of 2400 F-35's over the last decade or so . Can you imagine if the designers and the developers over shot their cost by 300-400 Billion dollars? Would they still have a job?

Most auditing bodies do bring out and highlight ongoing issues, but their entire purpose of existence is to give a snapshot analysis of the program and often take a contrarian view to things. This is by design and is a checks and balance issue in most democracies. We have all heard of Bureaucratic inertia in our day to day learnings but these bodies take this to another level!. The truth is generally somewhere in the middle. The problems come when the media, public at large and the decision makers (politicians and civilian leadership) do not develop the communication channels to get a proper perspective. So the CAG/GAO reports point to 10 issues? What are the plans to rectify those issues? That sort of conversation is more important. We aren't talking about an automobile production line (even that has some degree of defects and concurrency) but high end aerospace projects.

Career acquisition professionals, tactics and operational folks within the US services have poked holes in GAO reports and a lot many times their conclusions have never come into fruition as the developers have had plans to rectify them (but the GAO doesn't talk about them to the extent that it should because that would somehow diminish its objectivity). I think if you take time and go through it, with your knowledge on the program you could easily come up with a solid rebuttal of facts as they stand.

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/201 ... eport.html

[williams]

This could not be related to CAG findings, but here is little story from VKS book about audit in our armed forces

After going around the area and attending multiple briefings, my predecessor dropped a bombshell as he was leaving: the cinema in Samba, which was run by the brigade, had invited an audit objection. In our system of red tape, this is generally a harbinger of doom. A week passed before I could turn my attention to the vexing problem of the audit objection. As is usually the case, the behind-the-scenes story was far more interesting than the bland figures and sentences on paper. A local auditor had gone to see a movie and the NCO in charge of the cinema had asked him to purchase a ticket. The subsidized ticket amounted to just six rupees, but the auditor had no intention of paying. There was a bit of a fracas, after which the auditor hit back at the brigade by promptly raising an audit objection amounting to a couple of lakhs. Completely at the mercy of such petty sniping, most army units eventually find a way to deal with such problems. However, being a Brigade HQ issue, the problem got bigger and bigger, so much so that my predecessor had sprung it on me only once he had one foot out the door! Anyway, there was nothing to be done but take on the auditors. However, an unfortunate fallout of the situation was that we had no choice but to close the cinema to civilians, who were mostly ex-servicemen for whom the little theatre was a connect between their present and their past. The Samba region has one of the largest densities of ex-servicemen in the country. During my entire two-and-a-half year tenure, the audit objection continued to generate its own paper trail. Eventually, the dramatis personae either got transferred or just became too old to care; the matter died a painful death with some sort of a compromise. Small stations are particularly vulnerable to this sort of bullying. Local audit authorities are notorious, as are some defence accounts personnel, especially in regimental centres, for turning the screws just because they are in a position to exercise authority. This sort of perennial sniping at the army has been eroding the entire social fabric of the institution. More often than not it is the infantry that has to bear the brunt of this sort of behaviour. As a result, units then develop their own SOPs to deal with these irritants. A typical case was of an EME (Electronics and Mechanical Engineering) officer on an AIA (Annual Inspection of Arms). Supposedly an expert on weapons, he kept looking down the barrels of the rifles of the unit. ‘Corroded,’ he announced, barely looking at the inside of the rifle. The next weapon was handed over. ‘Corroded.’ This went on and on until the EME officer casually enquired about some blankets that had recently come to the unit canteen. After a while, the JCO accompanying the EME officer said to him in a low voice, ‘Saab, kambal aapki gypsy mein rakh diya hai.’ (Sir, the blankets have been kept in your vehicle.) On hearing this, despite having repeated ‘corroded’ ad nauseam, the officer promptly declared, ‘All okay!’ The AIA was over! With people like these supposedly on one’s side, one wonders how we keep the morale of our troops high and maintain ascendancy over our adversaries. Unless and until these maladies are addressed and ruthlessly snuffed out, we can never expect things to function smoothly during crises. The army is always expected to deliver in a scenario where failure to perform is not an option. Yet, we as a country have completely failed to insulate ourselves from incidents like these which get only worse as the same officials climb the ladder of success. The higher they go, the more they demand for themselves. It is like a cancer.

[Karan M]

Then thank god we all here have you, who are the expert in these things....

More expert than you at at any rate ...oh wait, that doesn't take much..

[Karan M]

One must remember that auditors and their "tribe" loose pretty much all purpose if they side with the folks they are auditing.

Its not a question of siding with the group being audited, but applying some common sense and awareness of the industry they are working with. Stuff like "ADA didnt do this, that for MMR" etc is hilarious. They completely ignore the nature of the tech (restricted when it comes to TOT), sanctions/political issues and ADA budgeting and comparisons of similar programs worldwide. CAG is (in) famous for such stupid commentary when it comes to defence issues. Post Kargil, I remember reading their audit report wherein they said India should have not imported FSAPDS rounds urgently despite a shortage, because Kargil was fought in the mountains. Audit thinks this was infructuous, MOD explanation was not tenable etc. The geniuses never thought what would have happened if the war expanded beyond the mountains. At the end of the day, if some BARC/ISRO/CSIR/non ADA DRDO guys had conducted an audit of the LCA program, they may have actually said something insightful. As far as CAG is concerned, thats never going to happen. I look at their audit reports and one can only think, with the level of access they had, is this all they could come up with.

[Karan M]

In the CAG audit above, one laugh out loud moment after another.. they take ADA's report of 70% indigenization but then say since electronic components are not indigenized etc so true value would be different.. i mean, this is heights of beancounter idiocy. So ADA should have set up fabs in India to make Intel equivalent processors for the avionics, to make it fully indigenous by each item used? The sort of design knowledge that goes into designing complex electronic LRUs, the software within etc is not the primary thing per these auditors. Are they even aware that the Military Semiconductor market is around the low single digits of the overall WW Market and hence the military is more and more driven by COTS applications with select assemblies/modules made to custom design?

Worldwide, aircraft manufacturers, system integrators, national authorities use the locally designed metric and overall platform cost metric to make their choices. But according to our auditors everything should be local down to the last screw and never mind who pays for that, and the validity and time impact of such whimsical choices. Of course, all they'll do is release another audit report saying everything should have been imported.

CAG comes up with some funny % commentary and this is the sort of stuff that will then be used by fool journalists and the crooks who shill Gripen to claim make in India only == LCA and stuff. CAG's brains don't even understand the topic in question. The aim should not be to be contentious for the sake of being contentious but to actually understand the program and what went wrong and why. And what went well.

CAG instead makes such statements, and the end result is that from the actual practical POV, their statements will be disregarded entirely by people who take up the next program as the statements are ludicrous and impractical.

[Wickberg]

Then thank god we all here have you, who are the expert in these things....

More expert than you at at any rate ...oh wait, that doesn't take much..

And that folks, are the words from an LCA-expert. Now I understand more and more why the project is on a standstill...

Edit: Why did you delete the personal attacks that you wrote in the original post? They were amusing.

[Karan M]

LOL, look at who is talking about personal attacks.. the same guy who began on the line.

BTW as regards program being at a standstill, last I checked, the program is funded to Mk2 and Sweden is begging India to buy the Gripen. Must hurt something bad when your own AF can't/won't buy 'em and you have to go around hat in hand, desparate, to every country in the world. And even in Europe, the Rafale & Typhoon are considered much better.

[Wickberg]

LOL, look at who is talking about personal attacks.. the same guy who began on the line.

BTW as regards program being at a standstill, last I checked, the program is funded to Mk2 and Sweden is begging India to buy the Gripen. Must hurt something bad when your own AF can't/won't buy 'em and you have to go around hat in hand, desparate, to every country in the world. And even in Europe, the Rafale & Typhoon are considered much better.

For every statement like this you make you sound more and more like a LCA-expert

(BTW, I don´t mind being called a "drunk swedish clown" or that you somehow think I represent the country of Sweden, any swedish company, the air force of Sweden or even Europe.)

That begging part...sometimes in the west it is called negotiating for contracts in order to export your product. You will probably get a hang of that term some day.

[Karan M]

For every statement like this you make you sound more and more like a LCA-expert

Better than being a Wickberg who seems to be suffering from small Wick envy and is hence forced to troll away in an Indian forum.

(BTW, I don´t mind being called a "drunk swedish clown" or that you somehow think I represent the country of Sweden, any swedish company, the air force of Sweden or even Europe.)

LOL, I doubt the Swedish AF takes drunk swedish clowns in, but hey hope springs eternal.. give it a shot!

That begging part...sometimes in the west it is called negotiating for contracts in order to export your product. You will probably get a hang of that term some day.

LOL, put as much gloss as you want but fact is you are begging & looks like you will be going around begging for a long while to come. PS: beg harder.
PPS: Beg the Swiss

[Wickberg]

For every statement like this you make you sound more and more like a LCA-expert

Better than being a Wickberg who seems to be suffering from small Wick envy and is hence forced to troll away in an Indian forum.

(BTW, I don´t mind being called a "drunk swedish clown" or that you somehow think I represent the country of Sweden, any swedish company, the air force of Sweden or even Europe.)

LOL, I doubt the Swedish AF takes drunk swedish clowns in, but hey hope springs eternal.. give it a shot!

That begging part...sometimes in the west it is called negotiating for contracts in order to export your product. You will probably get a hang of that term some day.

LOL, put as much gloss as you want but fact is you are begging & looks like you will be going around begging for a long while to come. PS: beg harder.
PPS: Beg the Swiss

I really don´t know what "Wick envy" is (english is not my first language) but I thought this was an international forum considering you all write in english. And I am (and has always been) interested in fighter aircrafts, specially new jets, so that is why I joined this forum. I would have loved to see fighters like Lavi, Novi Avion, Pirhana or LCA to become operational.
And no, I never applied to the Swedish airforce. I served in "Kustartilleriet" wich is (was) a cross between the navy and the army, a kind of Swedish version of the marines. I was a squadleader in a mortar platoon belonging to a amphibious battalion. The only times we had any contact with the airforce during training was their CAS-attacks conducted by SK-60s (SAAB 105).

[Viv S]

I really don´t know what "Wick envy" is (english is not my first language) but I thought this was an international forum considering you all write in english.

Sorry to interject here, but just out of curiosity - what did you think 'Bharat Rakshak' meant?

[Wickberg]

I really don´t know what "Wick envy" is (english is not my first language) but I thought this was an international forum considering you all write in english.

Sorry to interject here, but just out of curiosity - what did you think 'Bharat Rakshak' meant?

I honestly have no idea. Is that some hindu (hindi?) writing? I thought indians spelled with different letters. Bharat Rakshak...hmmm, armed forces or something?

[Karan M]

Funny how angrezi becomes an issue, and thoughts of sab jahaj acche hain, bhaichara come into play when the laathi starts taking effect.

[RKumar]

Guys ...pls stop these personal attacks.

Bharat - India
Rakshak - defender

It is a local defense forum but everyone is welcome with positive contributions. No pissing compitition or scoring goal pls.

[Wickberg]

Funny how angrezi becomes an issue, and thoughts of sab jahaj acche hain, bhaichara come into play when the laathi starts taking effect.

Once again, wise words from the expert. I bow my head and take your personal insult with a smile.

[Wickberg]

Guys ...pls stop these personal attacks.

Bharat - India
Rakshak - defender

It is a local defense forum but everyone is welcome with positive contributions. No pissing compitition or scoring goal pls.

Oh, thanks. So it´s kinda like that Pakistani defence forum (wich I have´nt visited in years and have forgot the adress to)?

[SSridhar]

Guys, do not respond to Wickberg. He has been warned and will now cool his heels off for a week.

[UlanBatori]

So the Ell See Ay has too much weight, too little thrust and not enough space to add needed countermeasures equipment. The GE404 has too little thrust and too much weight and volume.

Solution: Get BO to agree to sell the GEF136 injun to India, set up plant in India, sell half the output back to US along with LCA airframes. US uses US-assembled LCA+F136 with US electronics packages, as a quick Joint Forces fleet replacement to build up numbers. The F-35 procurement is slashed to about 1/4 of the fleet replacement need.

[pushkar.bhat]

Karan M & Wickberg can you guys stop this. This decending into a personal mud slinging match. Pls stop immediately.

[Mort Walker]

Most auditing bodies do bring out and highlight ongoing issues, but their entire purpose of existence is to give a snapshot analysis of the program and often take a contrarian view to things. This is by design and is a checks and balance issue in most democracies. We have all heard of Bureaucratic inertia in our day to day learnings but these bodies take this to another level!. The truth is generally somewhere in the middle. The problems come when the media, public at large and the decision makers (politicians and civilian leadership) do not develop the communication channels to get a proper perspective. So the CAG/GAO reports point to 10 issues? What are the plans to rectify those issues? That sort of conversation is more important. We aren't talking about an automobile production line (even that has some degree of defects and concurrency) but high end aerospace projects.

The CAG role is important as it shows how taxpayer money has been spent. It is by design an auditing program just like the GAO. The only difference is that when the GAO publishes a report critical of a weapon system in the US - the services, contractor and government officials (elected and appointed) rush out to support the program and the weapon system. It is very regrettable that the same type of support for the LCA is not shown by the IAF, HAL, and MoD. The LCA is the ONLY way forward for the IAF as far as combat aircraft are concerned because the money to be spent on imports is just way too much.

[RKumar]

Someone seems to be more interested in politics then plane, want to provoke using pure landers

IAF got no option but to live with 100s LCA... I am not really sure if katrina will have Indian colors. Too many ifs n buts, only time will tell.

[chaanakya]

I don't know what expertise CAG has in commenting upon LCA MK1 not meeting ASR. It is also not clear if auditors have any worthwhile qualifications to discuss ASR and its suitability and high or low expectations. Mostly they should confine themselves to financial aspects. If LCA has MK1 then it clearly implies evolving designs which would meet ASR at some point of time. So essentially they should talk about the delay and it reasons and not LCA deficiencies. Anyway I would not trust this CAG , who was ex Secy Defense and known congi bureaucrat and appointed during dying days of UPA in a last minute hurry when dead king's thumb impression is stamped on the royal decree. His role in rushing from his Indonesia trip during the so called coup and DOB controversy of VKS is too fresh to give him due credit. He would be living off the reputation of his illustrious predecessors.

[chetak]

I don't know what expertise CAG has in commenting upon LCA MK1 not meeting ASR. It is also not clear if auditors have any worthwhile qualifications to discuss ASR and its suitability and high or low expectations. Mostly they should confine themselves to financial aspects. If LCA has MK1 then it clearly implies evolving designs which would meet ASR at some point of time. So essentially they should talk about the delay and it reasons and not LCA deficiencies. Anyway I would not trust this CAG , who was ex Secy Defense and known congi bureaucrat and appointed during dying days of UPA in a last minute hurry when dead king's thumb impression is stamped on the royal decree. His role in rushing from his Indonesia trip during the so called coup and DOB controversy of VKS is too fresh to give him due credit. He would be living off the reputation of his illustrious predecessors.

CAG audits are based purely on written documents, written commitments and agreements and any slippage simply means that as per the written agreement or written commitment one or the other party has failed to meet a clearly agreed upon deadline or criteria. If ADA says four aircraft delivered, it means that, for CAG, there should be four acceptance test reports, mentioning the serial nos of all relevant assemblies, sub assemblies and the associated test reports properly referenced and accepted and signed off by the customer as well as ADA and flight test reports signed off by the pilots.

Cost escalations simply mean difference between agreed cost and as delivered costs and the methodology of calculating the escalation, if any.

CAG will comment only on these aspects. If there is no commitment deadlines or milestones, vendor agreements left open ended or delivery /acceptance criteria are not full filled, CA will point out that too. Around 95-98% of a CAG report should have already been caught by a decently competent internal audit team, had they been allowed to function, unhindered. It's no rocket science.

Don't blame CAG. They are simply doing their jobs. We had better hope like hell that nothing more has been buried or left uncovered because of political or bureaucratic interference. This CAG is not like Vinod Rai.