LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

[Singha]

the soloviev D30 engine family is one example where the civilian model used on Tu154 and IL76 to this day, was made into a after burning variant, fitted onto a modestly adapted Mig25 airframe replacing the tumaskys and lo you have the mighty Foxhound.

we definitely need
- one helicopter turboshaft of ardigen power since we will be building 1000s of such engines and helps
- one smaller 90kN wet thrust for various uses
- one larger 125kN wet thrust for heavier plarforms incl future LO bombers
- one medium non afterburning 50kn perhaps for UCAVs and UAVs
- the 20kn laghu shakti nirbhay domestic engine is already being created
- ramjet engine for AAM/ARM/SRAM is in the works
- we are building various solid & liquid fuel motors upto GSLV size
- liquid fuel Cryo engine is in tests

[Philip]

I am glad that the DM never gave any timeframe for the "200 LCAs" to be inducted.The last man to make that courageous and bold statement,our former pres. Dr.APJ AK,in 2003,famously said (despite being warned that he was being taken for a sweet ride by the ADA/GTRE,HAL) that by "2010 200 LCAs would be built"!

[srai]

...

Rajiv Kumar Pandey is not IAF personnel. He is under the CAG, not sure, but he handle all audits conducted on IAF. Pls, IAF did not do this audit. No idea or comments on vested interests.

All I can say is that till simple points like Karan explained above are not got forward, laymen will fall for it. This kind of CT's might weaken the case.

The report also lists that MOD's answer to CAG's queries had not been received by the time they tabled the report.

No arguments there. But why was this CAG report rushed to be published and presented in parliament when the CAG didn't have pov from the R&D side of things? What was the "actual" goal? It's heavily biased towards the IAF's pov and as Karan has pointed out some of the CAG assertions sound bit amateurish.

[vina]

the soloviev D30 engine family is one example where the civilian model used on Tu154 and IL76 to this day

You have it the other way around. The D30 (Mig 25 engines really) are military engines fitted onto civil and transports. A very suboptimal solution which only a non market /command economy like the Soviet Union could even contemplate. Wont work in any market economy.

Those planes wont meet the noise regulations in place.I had first hand experience some 8 years ago when the old HAL airport was operational and I was boarding an Air Deccan ATR with wifey and kid for a tier 2 town (Air Deccan's spot was far far away in the technical areas) and an IAF IL 76 landed and taxied closely and literally took our ears off, the air deccan crew hurried wifey and kid into the plane on first priority as the kid started bawling.

More seriously, that kind of thing serious performance compromises. For eg, when the IL 76s were refitted with true high bypass civilian derived engines (the PS90 , the Soviet Unions first truly modern civilian engine), you got some 25% to 40% increase in range and payload in the IL 76. The magic of the C17 is really in the high performance civil tech derived high bypass engines more than anything else.

[member_22539]

I am glad that the DM never gave any timeframe for the "200 LCAs" to be inducted.The last man to make that courageous and bold statement,our former pres. Dr.APJ AK,in 2003,famously said (despite being warned that he was being taken for a sweet ride by the ADA/GTRE,HAL) that by "2010 200 LCAs would be built"!

I suppose the PKFA schedule is going as planned and at the slated cost. Not to mention getting caught on fire with a foreign delegation looking on , no wonder IAF has the hots for Rafale .

[Shreeman]

You see, first you utter the e-word in vain, and then the russia vs "lets sink them mistrals"-france debate arrives.

We foretell, utter not the word of e, or the mighty geldons will soon arise, there will be carnage and locking of the threads as they have done in times past. You should only use the e-words, be it fixed wing or rotary, be it piston or jet, only at rare occasions. Like when its really really funny, or when someone passes gas, like the CAG just did. But do it in moderation.

Or people will say, what does it have to do with the YellowSeaEeay. And you started it. And then the geldons...

[RoyG]

In effect, MRCA and all other current IAF programs are being re-assessed (or already re-assessed) with LCA as the center-piece. IOW, there is a clear understanding that no matter what, the LCA has to be inducted in large numbers to take India's fighter design and production capability to the next level.

going forward, if the precedent for LCA is anything to go by, I feel like Parrikar will similarly prioritize Mk2, and AMCA. Funding for everything else (for IAF) will depend on the money needed for those 2 programs.

I was right in saying that we should wait for more policy directions from Parrikar before doubting his nationalism. It looks like he has the right idea. LCA being inducted in large numbers is going to be a game changer for the entire aviation industry. I hope he ropes in more of the private industry to aid in production and r&d.

[maitya]

The PeeAref server was cruelly shot down by a Ishtealth Mijjile just when I was going to post my previous post, misost-fortunately

So the F-136 engine has a diameter of 48 inches, the F-404 just 35 inches. IMO, this is the sort of problem that would be a killer if the design of the airframe is not one's own and one has no clue how it was designed. Otherwise it is not a big deal. The 'Coke-bottle' / Aishwarya-esque shape of the LCA mid-fuselage is because it is primarily a mid-subsonic/ transonic aircraft, with barely enough power to get much beyond. Get an engine with higher T/W into it, and the optimal fuselage shape for something that can go Mach 2 is very different, call it Jayalithaa-esque. Witness MiG-25 vs. MiG 21 or 27.

The F-136 has much higher Bypass Ratio (oooh! Let me call it Beta to sound knawlidjibal), hence the bigger radius. This gives much better TSFC and compensates for any drag increase due to the bigger diameter.

Yes, that would be a redesign, but if it was a serious war-footing effort that should take about 3 months. Plus some re-tooling time for the external panels to be cooked in the combojit autoclave. Longer than it would take for the CAG to draft the Memo to approve the SecDefence's Memo on the Proper Procedure to Table Reports in Lok Sabha.
It was pretty shocking to read the part where they couldn't find space in the airplane to stick in whatever CounterMeasures thingy. Those are the points (among the 43) that need point-by-point rebuttal (or agreement and fixing).

Instead all I see is people talking about each other's possible motives. Yes, there may be motives, but either someone is telling an objective truth, or not. If the latter, then the right approach to defeat the attack is to present the truth. Throwing poo at someone who is already full of it, is not a viable path to success.

But but, saar, there's something those insufferable-GTRE-based-SDREs (alongwith the traditional coconut oil stench, which the jernails and aphsaars can't withstand) are upto anyway - pls refer to indranilroy's post here - Breaking News: GTRE's next engine (taken from the tender details to Design & Development of three stage blisk fan).

Now, since there's no djinn tech available to these folks, they are doing the very-SDRE-method of getting the mass-flow increased, by getting the inlet diameter go up a wee bit (and matching that of F414s) - which Vinaji decided to call as Ganga (so name (c) is with him).

On which I then did my traditional-back-of-the-envelop-arithmetic-giri and had come out with a lay-man-pov forecasting etc of the dry and wet thrust etc - as follows:

(also included, some of my pet wet dreams like 30 OPR and 1923K TeT etc. - pliss ignore those columns )

So the question is, would these be enough (from purely a science-project pov)?
For IAF et all, it can't and won't be acceptable, that is known/given - as it won't match up with what those shiny brochure claims on Thermal and Propulsive efficiencies of various videshi injiin-manufacturers.
(Note: These efficiency reductions were as expected from all such jugaads, like just increase the mass-flow, and not doing anything to the core etc.).

==========

For others, you may want to go thru this quite old post of mine, where all these are leading to wrt indigenour gas-turbine tech etc - and is completely in line with the grand-mullah Enqyoobuddin Gas-turbini (PissBUH) sermons, many many many moons back.

[vina]

Yawn.. Bored.. Working from home. So, googled around for the Uber successful C17's development history and from wikipedia we have..

A static test of the C-17 wing in October 1992 resulted in the wing failing at 128% of design limit load, which was below the 150% requirement. Both wings buckled rear to the front and failures occurred in stringers, spars and ribs.[17] Some $100 million was spent to redesign the wing structure; the wing failed at 145% during a second test in September 1993.

Holy Kakkoose!

In late 1993, the Department of Defense gave the contractor two years to solve production and cost overrun problems or face termination of the contract after the delivery of the 40th aircraft.[20] By accepting the 1993 terms, McDonnell Douglas incurred a loss of nearly US$1.5 billion on the development phase of the program

In April 1994, the C-17 program remained over budget, and did not meet weight, fuel burn, payload and range specifications. It failed several key criteria during airworthiness evaluation tests. Technical problems were found with the mission software, landing gear, and other areas.In May 1994, it was proposed to cut production to as few as 32 aircraft; these cuts were later rescinded.

A January 1995 GAO report revealed that, over the original cost of $41.8 billion for 210 C17s, the 120 aircraft on order were costing $39.5 billion

C-17 testing was limited to this lower weight. Airflow issues prevented the C-17 from meeting airdrop requirements. A February 1997 GAO report revealed that a C-17 with a full payload could not land on 3,000 ft (910 m) wet runways; simulations suggested 5,000 ft (1,500 m) was required.

So, like the C17 , just like the LCA, was overweight , over budget and had performance short fall. And so, like the initial C17 , the LCA should be just limited to 40 airframes ordered and canned , or the airframes inducted, problems fixed and a total of 279 be built like the C17.

Dont know the answer ? Ask the folks who got ferried back from Yemen, the folks in Nepal and the folks whose helicopter fuel and bowser got air lifted for the Uttarakhand skyburst and they will give you the answer.

[member_22539]

^+1

[UPrabhu]

Someone claimed here IAF officer who actively tried to scuttle LCA project is now at HAL. Is this true? Can anyone atleast pm me the name, if not a direct namedrop on the forum.

[Pratyush]

The name is on this thread it self. Just read it up.

[brar_w]

So, like the C17 , just like the LCA, was overweight , over budget and had performance short fall. And so, like the initial C17 , the LCA should be just limited to 40 airframes ordered and canned , or the airframes inducted, problems fixed and a total of 279 be built like the C17.

Dont know the answer ? Ask the folks who got ferried back from Yemen, the folks in Nepal and the folks whose helicopter fuel and bowser got air lifted for the Uttarakhand skyburst and they will give you the answer

Auditors audit, give their opinion and feedback and provide only a snapshot of what they felt at a fixed time period, that is usually months prior to when the release the report. Thats about their scope. Scientists, program managers and other technical and managerial staff's job is to find the problems in testing, resolve them, test them, certify them and operationalize the system. Their job by its very nature is to look a few years into the future, have roadmaps in place to get there and have a pulse on the time-frame the operator wants a capability. Sometimes you take your time and resolve all shortcomings discovered during testing, but other times you move on and field a 90% working solution on time as opposed to waiting many years to get the 10% remaining capability.

Audits are generally welcomed as long as they are carried out in a competent fashion, however those that decide only look at them for what they are worth. The real value is in using that as a starting point and engaging those that are developing systems(ADA, HAL etc), and those that are going to operationalize it (IAF and IN) and see where the program is headed and how fast it will achieve its desired goals.

[UlanBatori]

Do only the things that you and you alone can do best and give the rest of it out to the Banias and DOOs who will do a splendid job.

By the grace of ATM Vinaji is here. Long awaited in the F-35 Wars...

IMO this is why the phoren car manufacturers should be brought in to manufacture the combojit banels on the ellseeyay. My 6th coujin thrice removed suggested this to EnnAyEll bigwigs about dus saal peeche aphter Phakt-Phinding Misshun to EllSeeYay prototype line where #3 or so was sitting with its 400% Indi-Genius Combojit Banels looking like the scales on a Mark IV Brontosaurus Tortoise-r-us. Net result: never invited back there again. Banished to Outer Mongolia

Car manufacturers these dins can do predictive composite design where the fit is just ultra-fine, compared to even 20 years ago when they used to roll a ball bearing down the hood line to brag that it would not drop inside. HondaJet maintains laminar flow up to Reynolds Ka Numbar oph 0.2 Karod (or maybe more) because they can mass-produce utterly seamless wings and fuselages. Why can't desh, which manufactures Jaguar (i mean car), hain?

I hope under Modi-saan, some "out-of-da-box" thinking is allowed, to break through all these 'v r like this onlee' problems. Maybe bring Air India pilots to fly the EllSeeYay. At least they have "Fighting Spirit(s)" in the cockpit.

So you're proposing we fit one of the biggest & heaviest engines ever developed for a combat jet (well.. the F136 has been cancelled but lets skim past that) into the smallest 4th gen fighter jet? And do it within 3 months?

Actually, yes. It is hard, but compare that to the difficulty of climbing the cliffs to Tiger Peak in Kargil at night into the face of the suicidal enemy carrying an INSAS. Or asking IAF pilots to fly 1980s Mirage2000s into battle against the latest Chinese planes or against Paki newest-block F-16s because the next round of the MRCA/HRCA/ whatever baksheesh scam remains cancelled or delayed.

It doesn't really matter that it the biggest& heaviest. It has better T/W. And even if it was to change one nut or bolt, standard desi babucracy would take 3 years, so it is not the magnitude of the task that matters. With a big change one does not waste time looking for 'quick smart fixes", one simply redesigns. If the procedures are followed right, the redesign for such a fuselage-fattening should take very little time. How to optimize the capabilities of the new beast, now THAT could take years and years, but can go on after the thing is bolted on right and starts flying with a lot of performance limiters at first.

And yes, vina is right, I may be a off by a couple of days this way or that, but it is high time someone started telling ppl to think in terms of winning wars, not scheduling work-breaks between coffee-shop trips and Conferences. Would you say that the intensity of the work environment ( I mean for the 99%, not for the Working 1%) matches that at a startup company? If not, why not?

What % of the Injun-Injin-Injineers at, say, ADA can do a 1-D thermodynamic analysis of any jet engine? Know how to calculate supersonic drag? Figure out landing gear stresses?

Back in the old dins, there was a Russian axial-compressor injun sitting at the entrance to the EyeEyeTee Aeronautical Department. Brand-new, as in not a spot of soot, no grease anywhere.

We don't have the right wrenches, screwdrivers etc to open it up

Oh yeah, and we are in the business of educating the world's best engineers, and have fully-paid-for Workshop facilities that any top-of-the-heap US university engg school would not be able to dream of in those days ... They could have built the needed tools from a block of metal, in no time. Just needed motivation and direction..

Apparently this whine came not from the faculty of the Eye Eye Tea, who were merely parroting it like the good parrots that they were, but from the EchAyEll, DeeArDeeEll etc. who imported the injuns (RD-9X IIRC) from the SU, then said the above to declare why they could not match it to the Rakhee-esque fuselage of the Ech-Eff-24. So they gave them away to the injineering colleges to place at the entrances.

I hear what someone says about Jee Tee Arr Ee, but the best thing to do there is for them to go as a deputation to NaMO and hold up banners saying "Play us or trade us". As in, give them the resources (and the motivation) to do Gas Turbine RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, and develop something. Or close the place down and quit pretending, at least then Indians can honestly say

We don't even have a Research Establishment for Gas Turbines.

Right now, as for the past 40 years, the establishment acronym better represents

Grand Tourist Re-enactment of Engineering

All the right appearances. No products. (sorry in advance, brickbats welcome)

[member_27581]

Ulanbatori ji your language is too hard for a noob like me..please use plain simple english or hindi..or will there be IQ tests for lurkers as well?

Do only the things that you and you alone can do best and give the rest of it out to the Banias and DOOs who will do a splendid job.

By the grace of ATM Vinaji is here. Long awaited in the F-35 Wars...

......:

[Shreeman]

Iph I waj ever to be allowed not to rant, even once, then I would say --

Things are, and have been, as they were dejired.
Heartburn for few. Ignorance for most. Bijness as usual to those that matter.

End normal transmishun.

Now, Queschun to ask is why should anything chanje now? The YellSeaAey like its Crowerry black sister ij best de-linked from the requirements of the dephense forses. And to be pursued as a rechearse projekt onlee to educate the next generation of DOO. That is all that needs to be stated in the parliament in an ansur to ms. renuka choudhury. There is a 50/50 chanse I might be Rong here, and those are not odds I ophten offer. But there you have it.

[TSJones]

Ulanbatori ji your language is too hard for a noob like me..please use plain simple english or hindi..or will there be IQ tests for lurkers as well?

not meant for you to understand...you have to be an insider. kinda like joining a MENSA club and when you attend a meeting you find out everybody is speaking in Klingon because they think it's cool. you have to stand around, smile, catch on to a few words and slowly grok it. then, after spending time at a number of meetings and feeling really misinformed you start to picking it up. in other words, it's to make the noobs spend their time in awed wonder and paying tuition so-to-speak, in becoming in-the-know and a bonafide accepted member... be grateful for the learning experience

note: it's also used as a tool to mask implied criticism of an established agency or institution or entity.

[Cosmo_R]

@UB Re F136 ^^^. From the initial responses, it looks like you're getting the standard 100 Indian reasons why something can't be done or should not even be tried.

I suggested the very same

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1294455

and got the usual from the neigh sayers' nether ends. Of course, had the F136 been available from Russia, EU, PRC, Qatar (name your country), everyone would have wet their nacelles.

Your suggestion makes eminent sense to explore. However, in a twist on Robert F. Kennedy's famous " Some men see things as they are and wonder why? I see things that never were and wonder why not?" , the general harrumph here is/will be "I see things as they will be and wonder why bother?"

It's not just the F136 though, even the F-135 built in India (with our next plane designed around it) in a plant 80% owned by PW enticed by a firm order for x100 units AND offset by yx100 components plus zx100 sourcing for components, makes great sense.

But hey!, the mobs are going to come out swinging.

[UlanBatori]

My sense is that F-135 may be too controversial to build in India - maybe P&W will seek to have a repair/maintenance center in India that has a closed-off section to handle those from all over customers in MidEast/Far East (other choices may be in Singapore or Bahrain/Dubai, but the former is a longer ferry flight from MidEast and the latter may be just a tad unstable).

The reason I like F-136 is that it is orphaned, and is NOT a present DoD purchase, so sliding it under the ITAR door may be a lot easier when it is in the interests of all concerned. Any way to sell those injins to Injuns would be all gravy and excellent politics in O-haiyyoo at a critical time.

However, the precise technology of the F-136 etc is ***NOT*** going to be transferred. I predicted this some saal pehle after seeing the hoopla about the JWRC in Blooru on the one hand and attending enough conferences where top Jee-yee sultans proclaimed:

V r **NOT** going to give away our Prime Jewels!

as the caveat to their Globalization policies.

Point about this 'technology transfer': you can only do it by seeing a system and thinking: 'How r they abal to do this onlee?' and reduce it to fundamentals, and say: Aha! eeph they did this, that means that there IS a solution to this problem that I thought was insolubal onlee!!

You must have people who have been thinking hard to find a way to solve the same problems. It is **NOT** just reverse engineering. This is why some of the best organizations don't go after Patents - filing a Patent application makes the concept Patent (obvious, clear) to the competition!

This is why I ask how many in those esteemed 'establishments' can do a 1-D thermo calculation, much less anything else that requires thought. Not just being "trained specialists" with not a clue as to why things are done the way they are done. This is the real bottom-line problem in desh, just like anywhere else. Consider the statistics:

100 injineering colleges where they have courses on turbomachinery? Do they even have that any more?
50 ishtudantz per class per year who pass the course?
Past 5 years (b4 they forget it all). Total = 25,000 injineers. Wow!
Assume 1 percent actually can do the 1-D calculation after understanding it (hain! u say! How dare u insult us? No insult intended: just reality). = 250.
Of which 200 go to Gelf/YooEss/Oirope. Leaves 50 total.
Of this how many does such an establishment manage to recruit? And provide incentives to stay involved in technology instead of moving into the chai-biscoot heaven of Memo-Shuffling and PowerPoint?
Of those who join, how many bother to look in a textbook after that, rather than take Training Courses?
(BTW, my Evil 6th coujin thrice-removed told me a detailed account of what desi Training Courses are like, even at the uber-prestigious JWR&DC: day-long party with an endless supply of laddoos, ice-cream, chai-biscoot - maybe 2 out of 50 attendees had the foggiest clue about what the instructor was trying to teach. And that was before they had SmartPhones to occupy them!)

Ultimately, this is the problem, I suspect. Pls correct me if I am far off, apologies in advance. To win wars and get rocket-science/ aero injineering really done, u need someone like Admiral Rickover or Ludwig Prandtl or Theodore von Karman or Wernher von Braun or Kelly Johnson, the horror chief of the Lockheed Skunk Works, or equivalents in desh (like Satish Dhawan, as I hear) to run roughshod over the complacent tribes, with a couple of public hangings at the weekly Progress Meetings. No kinder methods have been shown to produce such results. I imagine that this is how places like Jet Propulsion Lab get their stuff done.
Quote:

The first successful mission to Mars will not be designed and executed by dummies

or else you need the VC environment, which is even more Darwinian.
The Mustang P-51 was taken in 3 months from drawing board to flight. One design/build/test team, one of many. The Mitsubishi Zero probably likewise. Same for the Heinkel jet airplane. So one has to ask oneself: Why is it so tough to, say, contemplate a slight increase in the diameter of the engine compartment of a single-engine airplane in 2016?

[NRao]

Cosmo, the news on one of the street is that there is a lack of trust.

Personally I think it is about camping. This == seems to be a problem.

Let us see how India reacts to the cozying up north. I do not expect much of a change, but you never know.

[Vayutuvan]

Point about this 'technology transfer': you can only do it by seeing a system and thinking: 'How r they abal to do this onlee?' and reduce it to fundamentals, and say: Aha! eeph they did this, that means that there IS a solution to this problem that I thought was insolubal onlee!!

This is the crux.

But I don't think things - not just CAD/CAE stuff but a few new design prototype air frames which can be put in a full-sized wind tunnel - can be done in 3 years, leave alone 3 months.

[shiv]

The Mustang P-51 was taken in 3 months from drawing board to flight. One design/build/test team, one of many. The Mitsubishi Zero probably likewise. Same for the Heinkel jet airplane. So one has to ask oneself: Why is it so tough to, say, contemplate a slight increase in the diameter of the engine compartment of a single-engine airplane in 2016?

Deviating a bit from the topic of Indian designers and IAF - both those groups are offshoots from the Indian public who do not actually understand technology development - let alone heavier than air flight.

I read (in the last few days) that the US lost 12,000 aircraft (yes that is barah-hazaar) aircraft from while developing naval aviation and over 8000 personnel from 1948 to 88. Testing aircraft is not the same as test-baking a cake. The successful imported aircraft that Indians fly are being flown on the backs of hundreds of dead and injured pilots in some other country. Every time the media and public go apeshit over an accident or curse a local body for being incompetent it is an act of cognitive blindness in which the observer is having a rant imagining this does not happen to anyone else - like the patient who says "Doc only my ass itches. How come no one else in the universe has got an itchy ass?"

[UlanBatori]

The Apache attack helicopter was developed without any wind tunnel test. Of course it looks that way too - this is necessary to repel the earth and stay aloft. Obvious that no self-respecting wind tunnel person had seen the prototype.
What you are seeing is 400% the Besht of Amreeka onlee: Typical NASA thinking:

Nothing can be done in the next 10 years.

Gone is the urgency of the NACA and Apollo days.

[UlanBatori]

I read (in the last few days) that the US lost 12,000 aircraft (yes that is barah-hazaar) aircraft from while developing naval aviation and over 8000 personnel from 1948 to 88.

Most roads at Edwards AFB are named after test pilots who died on the job.

The other side is that every weapon system goes through SEVERAL THOUSANDS of tests before acceptance. Compare that to DDM saying:

The Akash has already been tested TEN TIMES and ishtill nat working onlee!

IOW, you can't develop anything unless you are willing to build, test, fail, study and go back and try again. Which is not compatible with GTRE schedule of -- how many injun tests per month?
Back to the airframe problem - I still say that it is not a big deal to fatten a fuselage and refit to a different engine. If it is, then the design/ development process is too slow.

I remember one yak who went off into the Real Duniya and emailed back:

The dipherenj between Ulan Bator and hiyar eej that if I DON'T blow up at least $10,000 worth of Kulite transducers each day, I am naat doing my job onlee!

[Shreeman]

Oh, almighty seers, foretellers and watchers of the wind -- hwere shall thisthread bee in a year's time? Counting the YesPees or counting their gripes? What might be the forekast for the estate of suloor? Will its tea gardens be populated with buzzing bees and cees? Or will it barren like the sands of jodhpur in an oph monsoon eeyar?

Let us be having some reading lf the entrails oph phish, leavej of tea, and the smoke of the holee herpes? Shall we? No chai distributors or affiliates are allowed. Kindlee diskwaliphy yourselph iph you drink chai.

[UlanBatori]

Kanpherenj in Dilli Ashoka Taj Mughal Six-ishtar Military Hotel & Resort w/ Bar Attached, titled:

Glorious Dawn: The Brilliant **Future** of the Indian Combat Aircraft Industry

Twenty-seven Plenary Talks by Exparts phrom Guvrmand, Industry, Academia, Phoren Univarjities. Ribbon-cutting and lamp lighting by Hon. Mantriji, followed by Inspirational Address by Shahrukh Khanji

BharataNatyam Performance in the evening, tour to Taj Mahal and Kutb Minar and Iron Pillar.

[shiv]

P.S. AOA shiv! Did u by any chance get any e-pata from certain quarters in past few dins, hain?

I did. Saw it but did not read when I accessed email once when I was out of town for last few days. All 273 emails waiting for me will be read over the next hour or so..

[Shreeman]

^^^ I dunno about the eyeran billar: https://www.waset.org/conference/2015/0 ... entative=1

[UlanBatori]

No braplem. Just worried that e-pata changed.

[ArmenT]

^^^ I dunno about the eyeran billar: https://www.waset.org/conference/2015/0 ... entative=1

If this is a conference on aviation engineering and technology, are they backfilling some of the slots with other chaps that can't present elsewhere? Towards the bottom of the list, I see things like:

* 162 Oral Cry, the Peacock: A Psychoanalytic Feminist Study
Taira Bano
university of jammu India

*299 Oral Mood Recognition Using Indian Music
Vishwa Joshi
DDU India

* 302 Oral Efficiency Measurement of Indian Sugar Manufacturing Firms - a DEA Approach
Amit Kumar Dwivedi, Priyanko Ghosh
Entrepreneurship Development Institute of India India

WTF do these have to do with aviation at all? I think I should write up a paper along these lines and submit to the conference:

* 666 The Flight of Icarus - How Iron Maiden contributes to understanding of aeronautics.
Armen Tamzarian
The School of Hard Knocks

[Avarachan]

Whats shocking about not finding space to fit in a full blown SPJ in a compact light fighter?
Lets check with the IAF fleet shall we.
Does Jaguar currently have an internal SPJ? No. Upgrade may.
Does the Mirage 2000? No. Upgrade may.
Does the MiG-29? No. Upgrade will.
Does the Su-30 MKI? No. Even upgrade wont.
Does the MiG-21 Bison? No. Only external.

All the above except the MiG-21 are MMRCA or HCA class. Squeezing in an internal SPJ is a non trivial task & which is why the LCA has external pylons. If the IAF wants a SPJ, it can be fielded on an external pylon, same as for all the other IAF aircraft.

+1. Also, I would love to see a comparison of the EW equipment on a Tejas Mk. 1, Mig-21 Bison (as a baseline), JF-17, and Gripen C/D; and also between a Tejas Mk. 2, Gripen E/F, Mig-35, and Mirage 2000-9. That would be very illuminating, especially given the prices of the different aircraft involved. Perhaps this could be an article for BR's online journal.

[member_22539]

Doesn't anyone speak English anymore? Whats with the crazy talk? I thought all that was restricted to the burkha threads.

[K Mehta]

Those talking about lack of SPJ have forgotten this news?
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... do-warfare

In addition to the Radar Warner, the EW suite, tested in Bengaluru, was also equipped with a jammer, which gives to the pilot an additional capability of nullifying the effect of detected radar threat by appropriate mode of jamming.

And also from here
http://m.thehindubusinessline.com/news/ ... 75592.ece/

J Manjula, Director DARE said "LCA is the first fighter aircraft of India fitted with a radar warner and jammer equipment. It has capability for both radar warning and jamming using a Unified EW Technology. Over the coming few months, ADA and DARE will be scheduling further sorties to evaluate the system in various signal scenarios".

[Prem Kumar]

The LCA: With All Due Respect to the Naysayers…
Narayanan Komerath Bharat-Rakshak Monitor 3.5 Mar-Apr. 2001

Thanks to Google Chacha's Cache-cow, the above errant Yak was also traced. For your reading pleasure: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

[vina]

or else you need the VC environment, which is even more Darwinian

This is falling in place slowly in Yindia. Twenty years from now, you will have robust products and services (misphorchunately , like SillyCon valley, it will be in the latest fad like "social" or "mobile" or "pig data" or whatever is the hip thing then and largely IT/Vity).

Traditional indian industry will upgrade, survive and nay thrive and be globally competitive.

Ultimately, this is the problem, I suspect. Pls correct me if I am far off, apologies in advance. To win wars and get rocket-science/ aero injineering really done, u need someone like Admiral Rickover or Ludwig Prandtl or Theodore von Karman or Wernher von Braun or Kelly Johnson, the horror chief of the Lockheed Skunk Works, or equivalents in desh (like Satish Dhawan, as I hear) to run roughshod over the complacent tribes, with a couple of public hangings at the weekly Progress Meetings. No kinder methods have been shown to produce such results. I imagine that this is how places like Jet Propulsion Lab get their stuff done.

Problem is with the areas where only the Govt can do stuff. Whether it is larger public health and ejjukashun or a more narrowly focused defence R&D. Space & Nuclear traditionally came directly under the prime minister (they are strategic after all) and so the major kakoose/pakistan business when kicked down to ministries and the turf wars and mai baap and Natasha dances were avoided there.

Two ways to go about it. Put key R&D areas under a separate focused group (call it whatever you want.. Strategic R&D Group/ whatever) and bring it under a well financed and directed management under the PMO , and kick the rest of the more tactical stuff down to the DOOS and Banias who now have the critical mass, size, competency to go bullet for bullet with the rest of the world (and also , dollar for dollar, dalla for dalla , dalal for dalal and natasha for natasha in other ummm.."critical" areas) to compete for orders and sell.

In India, the mai baap "mixed economy" stuff made us fall between the two stools. We neither had the discipline enforced by the market or the deliver or go to the Gulag methods of the authoritarian ones.

Anyways, one the more illustrious members of my extended Phamily (dhoti wearing, going to Maharaja Kallej to gain some Knaalij, mom's /Trivandrum good side, who landed up in Kaliphornia in the 40s, after IISc in Bangalore under CV Raman , misphorchunately, I come from the black sheep side) who got Pacchidee under Theodore Von Karman and also the Iron Maiden /Heavy Metal Fan's dad too got Pachhidee under the same said gent, don't remember hearing the "dark/fascist" side of said gent, only the brilliance, and of course his work from all the textbooks.

Anyways, Heavy Metal Fan's dad taught the course where I learned liphting line theory, dog- Joo cow sky transphorm etc. Grateful as ever of course.

[vina]

* 666 The Flight of Icarus - How Iron Maiden contributes to understanding of aeronautics.
Armen Tamzarian
The School of Hard Knocks

Ah. Thats a lecture I'd like to sign up for!

[Vayutuvan]

Doesn't anyone speak English anymore? Whats with the crazy talk? I thought all that was restricted to the burkha threads.

Eye feel for u bro

[vina]

Bored at work! So here goes.

Back in the old dins, there was a Russian axial-compressor injun sitting at the entrance to the EyeEyeTee Aeronautical Department.

Well, was in Chennai Madras, I can never call it that, in the end of Apr (2 weeks ago) to fetch wifey and the brats back from holiday @ in laws. Daughter said.. Appa, I want to go to your Kaalijj and see the deer! The son too caught on and made me give them a tour of the ol Madrassa. It was a saturday, drove down to the Madrassa (back in the old days, Adayar to the Madrassa was a breeze, now a chock a block full of traffic and a major mess). Took them to old haastel , and took them to them around.

There is an axial flow Yinjin, in the same place right at the entrance that I remember. Now, the Sea Hawk donated by the Navy is right at the entrance under a shed , prominently displayed. That was new from the old days, when it was parked indoors. Also took the kids to the towing tank in the Fluid Mech dept and also sea keeping tank and wave generator at the OE /NA dept.

Kids were more interested in the deer than all this stuff. Saw a couple of spotted deer. No black bucks which are usually there at the open grasslands at the stadium. The stadium nows seems to have become wet land /given up to the lake.. Small changes, madrassa looks good.

I always admired the Sea Hawk. Elegant design, a thing of beauty, so compact.

[JE Menon]

^^It is one of my pleasant childhood memories, a visit to the IIT there. Lots of leafy green. It was raining at the time. And there were a few deer around. A relative was a professor or visiting professor there (as I recall), he had accommodations there - which I remember as being good - but we were very poor in those days. Used to be in awe of a bar of 5-Star - don't know if any of you blokes remember that!!!

[niran]

^^It is one of my pleasant childhood memories, a visit to the IIT there. Lots of leafy green. It was raining at the time. And there were a few deer around. A relative was a professor or visiting professor there (as I recall), he had accommodations there - which I remember as being good - but we were very poor in those days. Used to be in awe of a bar of 5-Star - don't know if any of you blokes remember that!!!

what? the College or the 5 star?