LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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shiv
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 31 May 2015 15:53

ramana - the air force (and armed forces brass) live in Delhi right among the politicans and bureaucracy and are in touch every day in some way or other, officially and unofficially in parties, receptions etc. In fact retired chiefs talk just like politicians - i can say that having met and spent time with both late Admiral Dawson and a retired Air Force chief whom I won't name now. So when the chief says No plan B" it is a statement fully known to the politicians with a decision having been made that Rafales will be bought somehow or other. I seriously doubt if that "No plan B" was a statement that was secretly kept away from NaMo to put him in a spot. The armed forces talks like government, acts like government, thinks like government and is a branch of government. The only difference is a great deal more discipline, so far, much more honesty and integrity, by and large.

If you think about it, the air force chief saying, in the middle of intense negotiations, "We now have a plan B" is a politically charged statement that sends all sorts of signals to Boeing, the Europeans, the Russian and to the French. and to the ten thousand and one touts, presstitutes and people ready to sell the country to make some money.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 31 May 2015 16:23

I think we on civvy street need to understand one difference between armed forces and us. Armed forces training and policy is all about planning for something, fallback plans if that fails and further fallback plans if that fails. That means that the Air Force, while ready to fight a war with 500 combat aircraft, has plans to execute the same war with just 250 if it comes to that (which can happen for many reasons)

It is a matter of cooperation between arms supplier and armed force to make sure that the armed forces have the maximum amount of working and effective equipment to do their job. Unfortunately for India "Arms supplier" has been for at least 50% of requirements a foreign supplier dealing with government or a government production/assembly agency. While it may sound alien to us, the fact is Boeing, EADS, MiG, Saab etc compete with each other like Apple, Samsung, Nokia/Microsoft etc. They strive to appear to offer the best and have agents and governments working full time to ensure that deals are done. This in turn sets up a huge dynamic of vested interests in India.

Getting out of this so that "supplier of Armed forces" is a respected Indian entity with pride is not that easy, but it will have to come. But whatever comes, the armed forces will fight with whatever they have. It is literally their lives on line. Another point I want to make here is my observation about lay forum discussions of military flying. The impressions, tactics and solutions that I read about time and again are based on popular reading and sometimes flight and combat simulation games.

Where this knowledge fails is in the physical - i.e. "effects on the body and mind" of flying. Flying itself is not a natural thing. The only thing natural about flying is a tendency to land - and that landing ideally should not be a crash. Flying itself is scary and physically demanding. Military flying is not about the comfy airconditioned cockpit with displays where the pilot presses buttons. That is only true of flying games. Actual flying causes mad sensations and G forces and pilots in manoeuvres have to keep making idiotic looking faces and doing actions like they would need to do while pushing out a hard lump of shit simply to stay conscious, let alone push buttons or fight. Anyone who has had the shit scared out of him by severe turbulence in a civilian flight might be able to imagine what military pilots face as "normal life".

The point is, it is our responsibility as a nation to give them a safe flying machine that is also effective. That is the machine reliably stays in the air and preferably lands reliably rather than falls. On top of that it has to perform combat roles of various categories. The men who go up have to do this 100% whether the air force has 500 combat planes or 250. For the pilot it is 100%. And while the air force plans for this - they too are citizens of India with opinions and they are allowed to express them. Those opinions can be hurtful just like our opinions can hurt others. We must keep this in mind before we lock the cockpit canopy and push the throttle to full afterburner on the forum. I suspect most people are like me - the only after burner I know is yesterday's chilly chicken and peanut masala emerging in Pakistan this morning.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby geeth » 31 May 2015 16:53

^^^ Yes, I have also heard someone saying that there are occasions when pilots have to be literally lifted out of cockpits after a sortie...but what is being questioned is their willingness to fly a MIG 21 for another 15-20 years but would stoutly refuse to accept a LCA MK1, in its present form, though it is far better than a MIG 21. That defies the logic.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 31 May 2015 17:18

I think we on civvy street need to understand one difference between armed forces and us. Armed forces training and policy is all about planning for something, fallback plans if that fails and further fallback plans if that fails. That means that the Air Force, while ready to fight a war with 500 combat aircraft, has plans to execute the same war with just 250 if it comes to that (which can happen for many reasons)


No difference in "training (civies too have back up plans)(civies call them "alternative plans", "contingency plans", etc)(been there for about a 100 years now). The difference lies in implementing them. The Forces have a rigidity, that is absent in democratic civies, that provides clarity in "implementing" "plans".

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 31 May 2015 18:10

What is not in doubt is the genuineness of the nation's stakeholders wanting the LCA to succeed,but what is missing in the big picture is that spark of art of design,development and production expertise, apparently lacking in our desi aviation establishment ,that makes a "technology demonstrator " become a weapon system ,launched fully into series production and inducted into the IAF,given the required training manuals,MRO support,etc. The LCA programme has staggered on and on and on.I remember BRF buffs way back in 2001 predicting that the first sqd. would definitely be ready by 2003/4/5...the years kept slipping and slipping and slipping. Today,we do not have even the first sqd. of the 40MK-1s reluctantly ordered by the IAF ,handed over to them to form the first sqd.

Therefore,the statement that something is wrong if the IAF want to soldier on the time tested MIG-21 Bison for another decade (it has little choice),because a superior LCA MK-1 is available is specious.The MK-1 is not yet available! It has still to be put through its paces in a combat sqd. and not in flight testing mode alone to determine how good it is,with what % of improved performance say as against the MIG-21 Bison,which it is supposed to replace.

The DM's interview about the Rafale deal makes it very clear that the GOI had no other option but to acquire a one-off deal for 2 Rafale sqds. in order to keep the IAF's combat capability at the minimum level required given the current threats.Given the cost of the aircraft,more Rafales are at the moment highly unlikely. This brings the urgency of getting the LCA into series production,at a rate far better than eight, and IAF service even more acute.

The final "push" and refinement required to bring a programme to total fruition appears to be lacking in HAL.Just look at the IJT or BTT programmes as well. I was reading a report on the LUH.The author of it says that the LUH's specified weight appears to be a problem and trials will determine if it is so . According to some analysts,including our favourite Prof.D,this is because we lack sufficient engineering/production skills. The slick manner in which the "innards" of other fighter aircraft have been put together in "diet" mode,is allegedly superior to the manner in which we have done with the LCA,where we are/were struggling to cut down weight,find space for eqpt.,etc.

These skills are not going to be obtained overnight. It requires a national mindest towards building a desi aviation/aerospace industry which should start from the Univ level. What % of engineering colleges countrywise have aviation specialised courses? This why BAe was brought in as a crisis specialist to save the IJT from being dumped, the success of which is as yet undetermined. Therefore,for some time to come,and as far as aero-engines are concerned a v. long time to come,we will be dependent upon JVs,collaboration,etc. with foreign aviation giants whether we like it or not.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 31 May 2015 18:27

geeth wrote:^^^ Yes, I have also heard someone saying that there are occasions when pilots have to be literally lifted out of cockpits after a sortie...but what is being questioned is their willingness to fly a MIG 21 for another 15-20 years but would stoutly refuse to accept a LCA MK1, in its present form, though it is far better than a MIG 21. That defies the logic.


In fact it can only be bias - without having flown the Tejas. I think that among pilots there is a tendency to be like we might compare a small cramped sports car with a luxury sedan and decide that the sports car has better performance than the sedan without actually driving it. I do know that test pilots have a reputation for being safe while fighter jocks can be more "macho". I know more than one example of the latter. One was a Jaguar pilot who was referring to a test pilot who did the Jaguar demo in an early edition of Aero India. He joked that the pilot, after taking off did a chukker around the whole state of Karnataka before returning to the Aero India display area - rather than doing as tight a turn as possible. The other example of a pilot who hit a hill in Ooty while doing a display over the Staff college, Coonoor.

Pilots who have flown the Tejas say it is good. Those who have not flown it need to do so before passing comments. However I am sure comments are being passed based on on-paper specs, which is fine but not totally unbiased. "Paper specs" of our imported aircraft have been better than reality.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 31 May 2015 18:35

When something doesn't make sense, then one has to put two and two together so that it starts to make sense.

1. The mango IAF officer, prolly knows that the LCA is pretty close to the M2K, if they don't its prolly because word hasn't gotten around.
2. The IAF bossess in Dilli, have been burnt by DRDO many times, and are leery of what they do. There is even an element of "Bloody-civilian-itis" going on here.
3. Armed forces bosses in dilli are political appointees to some extent, hobnob with the netas and babus. I wouldn't call it ghoos outright, because it can't be, but there is a lot of wining and dining that goes on. A lot of wink wink.
4. Again the mango IAF officer only repeats what the top brass ordains, or at best says something that sounds neutral.

The entire problem is institutional, cultural. If Manoj Parrikar or Modi crack a whip, the top babus and soldiers will change their tune, which will have a percolating effect down the ranks.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 31 May 2015 18:36

NRao wrote:
I think we on civvy street need to understand one difference between armed forces and us. Armed forces training and policy is all about planning for something, fallback plans if that fails and further fallback plans if that fails. That means that the Air Force, while ready to fight a war with 500 combat aircraft, has plans to execute the same war with just 250 if it comes to that (which can happen for many reasons)


No difference in "training (civies too have back up plans)(civies call them "alternative plans", "contingency plans", etc)(been there for about a 100 years now). The difference lies in implementing them. The Forces have a rigidity, that is absent in democratic civies, that provides clarity in "implementing" "plans".


Yes and no. We can stay in this debate forever. I will use surgical examples

A man has his leg stuck under a collapsed building. The only way to extricate him is to amputate a legs. The only instrument available is a hacksaw. Would I amputate his leg there and then?

Case 1: 200 years ago: Yes. No other go to try and save him. No anaesthesia
Case 2. Modern day: I would ask for an anaesthesiologist to give some anaesthesia and ask for sterile instruments and antibiotics/antisepsis on site.
Case 3. Refuse because there is no chance of getting anaesthesia and sterile instruments within 24 hours. Earthquake zone.(women wearing jeans)

So having back up plans is not the same as the back up plans you may be forced to follow because of the degree of urgency of the situation. What sort of urgency exists in the work that the average civilian does? More significantly what is the seriousness of the problem that can arise if a given person simply postpones the job he must do til time time is right - eg "Internet cable cut Saturday night. Will be repaired Monday morning"

A month ago a tree fell on my house. It was cut 2 days later. The road remained blocked for 4 days.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 31 May 2015 18:38

Gagan wrote: If Manoj Parrikar or Modi crack a whip, the top babus and soldierswill change their tune,

Problem. Babus are permanent. Modi and Parikker will likely not outlast a career bureaucrat.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 31 May 2015 19:04

A gem of a quote from ex-DRDO chief Avinash Chander,posted by Sagar in the DRDO td.. He was saying that worldwide it took about 15 years at least to develop an aircraft.Then said this about the LCA MK-2.

if I have to take LCA Mark II and start today, I am sure within the next eight years we can get the Mark II.


8 years! Will the IAF want an LCA MK-2 after 8 years? Guys all bets are off!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 31 May 2015 19:11

Babus graduate and are indoctrinated that there is a lot of wining and dining to be expected, because they are the creme-de-la-creme. People will wine and dine them just because they are so Great.

Once this brushing up their egos does not go as expected, you get a sullen babu, who will put impediments in everything you do, will supply info to the opposition neta to try and pull the neta-in-power down a few notches.

But this is OT and won't continue any further...

The fauj has institutional memory, which they want to preserve to some extent. They want to discourage 'radical' thought, follow the line of the seniors - the problem is that the seniors belong to a generation in the past, where India could produce nothing worthwhile, only imports were great. Even a Mig-21 is a wonderful machine - hasn't it lasted all these years hain ji?
If a young DRDO produces an aircraft that is approaching an upgraded M2K, it just doesn't go down the throat and it becomes difficult for some seniors to swallow and digest - that a desi organization can do something this major !!!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 31 May 2015 19:18

Then babus and netas in dilli get no ghoos from HAL/DRDO at all.
Maybe private desi players should be in defence afterall, the ghoos and wining/dining the'll be able to do to the netas-babus will outrival what the videshis can do.

Hopefully then we'll get a level playing field for Indian made products in India.

BTW this indigenious sarkari organization products are dissed in almost every country in the world. Every country will love imports, private player made maal for obvious reasons.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 31 May 2015 19:27

So having back up plans is not the same as the back up plans you may be forced to follow because of the degree of urgency of the situation. What sort of urgency exists in the work that the average civilian does? More significantly what is the seriousness of the problem that can arise if a given person simply postpones the job he must do til time time is right - eg "Internet cable cut Saturday night. Will be repaired Monday morning"

A month ago a tree fell on my house. It was cut 2 days later. The road remained blocked for 4 days.


So, now you have introduced "urgency".

OK.

What do you think will happen if there were a gas leak? I would get a person at my door step within 15-20 mins. "Urgency" for you.

"urgency" also has two dimensions: the civilian and the gov. Let teh civies have a martial culture and the reaction will be the very same.




Here is my observation: people in any of the Services act very differently while they are on a Base and when they are off a Base. Off Base they ALSO have a component of Chalta Hai attitude, which is not there (cannot be there) while on Base. That is "implementation".

As an example, they keep their office space, Service vehicles, spick and span, while their homes or personal cars are a mess.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 31 May 2015 19:54

NRao wrote:Here is my observation: people in any of the Services act very differently while they are on a Base and when they are off a Base. Off Base they ALSO have a component of Chalta Hai attitude, which is not there (cannot be there) while on Base. That is "implementation".

As an example, they keep their office space, Service vehicles, spick and span, while their homes or personal cars are a mess.

Not my observation. Clearly, there is a difference.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kakkaji » 31 May 2015 20:29

No need for 126 Rafales, says defence minister Manohar Parrikar

The minister underlined that Rafales are not a replacement for MiG-21s. He said that the MiGs would be replaced by the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 31 May 2015 21:15

perhaps it is time to throw away bureaucracy with policy based administration. it does not matter who gets to execute it, but as long as the time-bound policies are drafted and corrected periodically, we should be good. even the bureaucrats should be time-bound, every posting, project, program being handled. every file, paper or document must be have a lifecycle that is time-bound. there should be some realism in their wishes, and must be reviewed by proper checks&balances - commissions, CAGs, public-private setups, etc.

IAF seeking arranged alliance with team LCA is not going to work.. they better get into a love affair with LCA.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 31 May 2015 21:24

Sensors of Dassault Management and other companies are being bombarded by conflicting signals. Probably unable to make out the real image amidst clutter. Even IAF does not know what to do next.They may get their Merc/BMW but no more.....

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby sharma.abhinav » 31 May 2015 22:37

Sensors of Dassault Management and other companies are being bombarded by conflicting signals. Probably unable to make out the real image amidst clutter. Even IAF does not know what to do next.They may get their Merc/BMW but no more.....


Well to me the picture is pretty clear. The way MMRCA tender was conducted, the IAF shot themselves in the foot. Now we know that their is no money to buy Rafael in numbers and it is increasingly becoming clear that any other western aircraft will cost an arm and a leg to buy, so the only way that IAF can get requisite numbers is by inducting Tejas in its various avatars/blocks. And whether IAF like it or not it will be forced to buy Tejas Mk-1 when it achieves FOC till production of Tejas Mk-2 commences.

Now the talk for another light fighter is simply to keep DRDO, ADA and HAL combined on their toes. What I find strange though is the talk of putting an AESA in Mk-1 it-self, when their was no such need few months ago. I hate to say but I see it as delaying tactics by IAF. I only wish that this time ADA and HAL don't miss the deadline for the FOC.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 31 May 2015 22:42

FOC will be given on original ASR as freezed and handed down to ADA by IAF. Any additional requirement will form part of subsequent versions after FOC. Wait for it. But I think it is not going to replace Rafale or other MMRCA only MIG 21 Bis. 36 could be to prevent degradation of IAF capabilities in medium role craft beyond irretrievable and keep it fighting worthy. Afterall MMRCA envisaged 18 flyaway Rafale and rest to be built in India over the years. So immediate requirement could be met till other aircraft systems mature enough.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby sharma.abhinav » 31 May 2015 23:20

FOC will be given on original ASR as freezed and handed down to ADA by IAF. Any additional requirement will form part of subsequent versions after FOC. Wait for it. But I think it is not going to replace Rafale or other MMRCA only MIG 21 Bis.


Indeed Tejas can't and won't replace Rafale but the two primary requirements for MMRCA were to (a) Address fall in numbers and (b) Infuse modern western technology. Now the purchase of 36 Rafale's has addressed the b-part of the requirement and also the a-part to some extent for the time being. But if the IAF doesn't induct more Tejas post FOC and instead goes for Gripen or F-16 (highly unlikely), then questions will be asked because Tejas capability wise is already very close to the above mentioned single engined aircrafts and costs less. Also the fact that the above said crafts didn't make the cut in original tender due to performance shortfall their induction will certainly raise eyebrows.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 31 May 2015 23:37

IAF can not ask for Any other aircraft which were rejected by them during technical evaluation. At the most Eurofighter might pitch in. But I doubt that. I don't know the replacement. May be more SU 30 or Pak FA/FGFA project would get importance.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 01 Jun 2015 06:08

Philip wrote:A gem of a quote from ex-DRDO chief Avinash Chander,posted by Sagar in the DRDO td.. He was saying that worldwide it took about 15 years at least to develop an aircraft.Then said this about the LCA MK-2.

if I have to take LCA Mark II and start today, I am sure within the next eight years we can get the Mark II.


8 years! Will the IAF want an LCA MK-2 after 8 years? Guys all bets are off!

If you add production, squadron formation and support activities, it will be 12 years. That's really the reality. If the IAF (or others) thinks it can get a MK.2 in 3 or 4 years from inception then it is in for a rude shock. Lessons are not learnt. Look world over on similar upgrade programs and come back and tell us how long they took.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nash » 01 Jun 2015 09:30

IMO thats where LCA-Mk1.5 comes into the picture, an order of 80-100 LCA(Mk1-40 & Mk1.5-40-60) can be possible the way MP is talking about LCA to fill the numbers.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby sharma.abhinav » 01 Jun 2015 12:12

I have a question if the guru's wont mind :P

How quickly can we get engines for series production of Mk1 and proposed Mk1.5 from GE. Will it be through a fresh order or can they be acquired through previous order it self.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sanjay » 01 Jun 2015 12:42

The questions to ask are as follows:

1) Is the Tejas Mk.1 able to hold its own in A2A combat against JF-17 in WVR and BVR combat ?

2) Is the RWR on Tejas Mk.1 adequate (I am led to understand there is some excessive EMI) to provide sufficient protection ?

3) Is there any cogent reason why the Tejas Mk.1 cannot replace the MiG-21M/MF and supplement and then supplant the MiG-21Bison ?

From what I have read - on BRF and elsewhere - the answers seem to be Yes, maybe & no.

The delay in BVR missile testing is the only thing that is annoying me.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_28700 » 01 Jun 2015 15:44

The LCA programme has staggered on and on and on.I remember BRF buffs way back in 2001 predicting that the first sqd. would definitely be ready by 2003/4/5...the years kept slipping and slipping and slipping. Today,we do not have even the first sqd. of the 40MK-1s reluctantly ordered by the IAF ,handed over to them to form the first sqd.


There has been huge over-expectations as well as over-promising done from ADA and HAL w.r.t. timings which contributes to the dismay we see today. How can an aircraft which had its first flight in 2000 be expected to have a squadron ready by 2003-04. Testing a fresh design that too by a country which is making its debut attempt (not considering Marut as we tried real hard to lose all experience gained from that and we also had generous help from Prof. Kury Tank) was never going to be quick. Every one tests their aircrafts for 5-6 years at least but we with our conservative attitude would have done it in 2-3 yrs max. :eek: :lol:

Regards,
Vaibhav

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_28700 » 01 Jun 2015 15:46

Or maybe ADA was thinking IAF would allow Tejas to be inducted like JF-17 without any IOC and while testing was still going on :?: :eek: :(

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sanjay » 02 Jun 2015 18:43

You would think so wouldn't you ? I would like the expert BRF crew to answer a simple question - even with sub-optimal RWR and assuming BVR tests work OK - is the Tejas Mk.1 on par with JF-17 ? If the answer is yes, then IAF has no excuse for ordering only 40.

Incidentally, they are now latching on to the RWR issue as to why Tejas will be not good enough in A2A operations.

I will say though that I believe Tejas Mk.2 timeline is a bit unrealistic as some of the issues raised with Tejas regarding the lack of engine power appear to be more than merely a change in engine issue.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 02 Jun 2015 19:18

What suboptimal RWR being critical? First, the Tarang on the LCA is already a gen behind whats available on other IAF fighters - the DR118, yet it works fine on other platforms. Next, as if the RWRs on all the other fighters all worked out of the box and didn't require revision to be customized to the platform. The answer, yes they did require matching to platform. CAG has a tendency to overstate its case and make a mountain out of molehill. RWR case is perfect example.
If you are using Prasun Sengupta as a source on what the IAF thinks, please don't. He only does brochure bashing.
DARE et al have the capability to manage this issue and we also have time till FOC.
As matter of fact, the LCA1P proposed/Mk2 will have the EW suite which is a RWJ - no separate RWR either.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2015 19:37

People forget that in an aircraft's 30-year life it will undergo several upgrades, from minor to major MLU.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sanjay » 02 Jun 2015 20:25

Karan M - I agree entirely. The problem is that there is no counter narrative. I find that the BVR tests though are taking too long. I also would really like to see a comparison between the JF17 and the Tejas in terms of flight performance and potential.

As a matter of fact, can a comprehensive counter-narrative be started ?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 02 Jun 2015 20:33

Sanjay, Need Vivek Arora to do his magic.

To me the ITR and STR are contradictory. STR number is for cannon based dogfighting.

If the BVR works then not an issue.
Astra is shaping up well.


JF17 I don't know its STR.
If we can dig it up would be useful.

"Best is enemy of good!"

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sanjay » 02 Jun 2015 21:06

Ramana - right of course. But it might be nice to get some estimates. I think Vivek (in his brilliant analysis) suggested a Tejas Mk.1 STR of 16 deg/sec (as opposed to an ASR of 18 deg/sec). ITR would be interesting as well.

Now you say Astra is doing well - and it is - but remember it needs to be integrated with the radar. Why not pick up all the Derbys bought for the Sea Harrier LUSH upgrade (since they are going bye-bye soon) and integrate them with the Tejas Mk1 ?

Might I suggest that the counter-narrative has to be on both a technical analysis plus a comparison with the aircraft the Tejas is replacing.

If we look at the MiG-27, all that needs to happen is that the Tejas needs to be cleared for some air-to-ground missiles.

Compared to the MiG-21bison, all that needs to happen is that the BVR AAM needs to be cleared.

Do we need to actually have an article asking "Is the Tejas all that bad ?"

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 03 Jun 2015 17:57

Sanjay wrote: "Is the Tejas all that bad ?"


Dont we know Tejas is the worst plane on the earth, it is so bad that
- GoI tried to kill it (Remember some esteemed cong leader when it was in feasibility phase)
- US and EU advising against it (remember cries before first flight)
- IAF is trying to kill since 20 years
- Media houses screaming investment of 1 billion US Dollar is wastage of tax payer money lets spend 30 b$ on Rafale and 30 b$ on PAK-FA

And still it is kicking their asses and soon will fly in Indian colours (with local made paint :mrgreen: )

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2015 18:43

Sanjay wrote:You would think so wouldn't you ? I would like the expert BRF crew to answer a simple question - even with sub-optimal RWR and assuming BVR tests work OK - is the Tejas Mk.1 on par with JF-17 ? If the answer is yes, then IAF has no excuse for ordering only 40.

Sanjay I have seen no publicly available specs for JF 17 - other than what I occasionally read on Paki fora.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sanjay » 03 Jun 2015 19:11

Well Shiv, given those (I am also the occasional lurker at Paki fora) the Tejas Mk.1 does not seem so bad.

It seems that we have CAG reports, Das Reports and IAF "reports" bashing Tejas but none are in any sort of context. How do we explain the negativity of the CAG et al vs the positive vibes coming from folks like Commodore Mao and the test pilots in 2013 ?

Is the Tejas really defective or is it just not 100% to ASR ?

Nobody can tell me the MiG-21 or MiG-23 ever met 100% of their respective ASRs why is the Tejas being targeted this way ? We've all speculated but can the IAF really be this stubborn ?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2015 19:45

Sanjay wrote:We've all speculated but can the IAF really be this stubborn ?

Yes. The IAF (and even the Army) is stubborn. Take a look at the Navy. The latter should be ashamed. A great example would be the Visakhapatnam Class which derives her design from the Kolkata Class which in turn got it from the Delhi Class which in turn got it from the Rajput Class and Godavari Class ships and so on and so forth. Each class improved upon the former. That is a concept that is anathema to both the IAF and the Army. Desi Maal has to be the best, otherwise they do not want it. And if they are forced to take it - on rare occasions - they will whine all along the way for every little issue.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 03 Jun 2015 20:08

Haah. Finally something to warm the cockles of my heart. Just got off watching Karan Thapar's program with him interviewing former Air Chief Marshals Fali Major and PV Naik.

Parikkar & the Modi govt have really kicked the Natashas in the nuts. This entire program was a concerted attempt at why 36 Rafales were not "sufficient" , we should get 126 and Parikkar is being loony and the former ACMs squirming about trying to justify why Rafale alone will do the deal and why the LCA cant.

According to Major, the reason to get the Rafale is this. In a sub conventional conflict , we need to avoid collateral damage and need precision , like putting a missile in the 3rd window in the 6th floor a building and only the Rafale can do that and somehow he things the LCA cant! Ok. You need to spend a gazzillion dollars so that , you dont do collateral damage to a few Pakis! :shock: :shock:

Can someone please inform that gent that even as recently as Afghan campaign, the Rafale couldnt do its precision targeting itself and it had to have lasing support from Mirage 2000s ? In fact , the current versions of the Rafale dont fly with the AESA radars! All that is a promissory note (which will be delivered definitely.

Karan Thapar tried running down the LCA saying that it was no all that was made out to be , but PV Naik came out and said that it is a great plane, the test pilots and everyone with the program swear by it.But , the problem is , not capability ,but timeline, and that it should have come some 10 years ago, and the trouble is that there is not enough capacity to produce it in numbers and get it into operation.

Will someone please ask the gent his OWN role in making sure that it was delayed. Can we ask him about not even being bothered with the weapon specs, the updated specs and moving goal posts and everything. Okay, let that slide. BUT, if we are going to make the Rafale in India (importing 126 is out of question), we will need to setup a new production line, so will the timeline to get the local built Rafales be any different from rolling out the LCAs in numbers and which one will roll out quicker given the base that we already have for the LCA ?

Surely this Parikkar statement, and plans on LCA MK1.5 has stunned the Natashas. This entire Karan Thaapar business is an attempt to scramble to save the situation by running a media campaign on trying to make the minister "See Sense" hopefully and order 126 :rotfl: :rotfl: . Expect more such campaigns from the usual other media outlets (Toilet, rrrundieTV and other for hire shops and hit jobs).

The big elephant which was left untouched, is why do you need the MMRCA at all ? Ordering more upgrade SU 30 MKIs with better equipment and jammers and stuff and their longer range, payload and endurance , and the LCAs along with MK1.5 and Mk2 will do the job. All this will be far cheaper and have higher capability and better economies of scale than the Rafale ! The SU-30 was not touched upon at all in the talk.

Plainly , it is obvious that the IAF ran the entire LCA program in bad faith from 2000 onwards and was bent on the MMRCA and for that it was nesessary to kill the LCA.It was the same old story carried over from the basic trainer, to AJT Hawk to other things. Now same play book cannot continue and the old foggies seem to try one last ditch at it.

Clearly, the Natashas know the game is up. The LCA is close to induction and the defense minister had the confidence in it to take the decision he has taken. The MK1.5 is a very credible alternative to the paper Rafale. With the AESA radar and the internal jammer , there is very little that the Rafale brings to the table beyond range and payload, where the SU-30 will do a far better job and can be fixed with the same electronic doo-dads in a MLU !

Parikkar has done a slam dunk. Good going. Nay.. Great Going Modi Sarkar!

Now it is over to DRDO/ADA and HAL to roll them out in numbers and get the MK1.5 and Mk2 in service ASAP.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 20:57

36 are not going to swing the boat one way or another...it was a peace offering to IAF by DM to make them see sense and come onboard for domestic projects with some 'prestige' infact of having a merc in the villa garage, with 3 indicas and dzire also together.

but people are not prepared to 'see sense' and are instead trying to make the defmin 'see sense'

I have a feeling some sort of purge will be done once the DM loses his patience and cracks down using his full authority. some dalals also need to get hammered and handled by the cbi.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Abhay_S » 03 Jun 2015 21:11

MP is in power for the next 4 yrs and looks like he is supporting the LCA. the biggest danger now are delays. we are fast approaching now or never time.


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