LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 21:15

derby (from IN stock) and gun need to get fired from the air .... and those missing 4 SP planes now long past the march date need to appear atleast by autumn.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2015 22:05

vina wrote:Haah. Finally something to warm the cockles of my heart. Just got off watching Karan Thapar's program with him interviewing former Air Chief Marshals Fali Major and PV Naik.

Is there a link for this video. It would be great to watch. Thanks.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2015 22:23

If Karan Thapar has been "activated" rest assured some INC bigwigs have an interests in the Rafale deal and its been disrupted.

This guy is not going to wade into just any topic like Rafale as versus commmoooonalism etc which can show the Govt up, unless he has strict instructions from the top such as the INC HQ.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 03 Jun 2015 22:33

Singha wrote:derby (from IN stock) and gun need to get fired from the air .... and those missing 4 SP planes now long past the march date need to appear atleast by autumn.


I hope the Derby remains a stopgap solution and we don't order any new units. The Astra might be an year or two away from production but even in the Mk1 version it comfortably outmatched the Derby. Unfortunately, Rafael has released a shiny brochure for the new 'I-Derby' with a fancy new seeker, and is now sitting back waiting for the fish to bite.
Last edited by Viv S on 03 Jun 2015 22:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2015 22:34

Surely this Parikkar statement, and plans on LCA MK1.5 has stunned the Natashas. This entire Karan Thaapar business is an attempt to scramble to save the situation by running a media campaign on trying to make the minister "See Sense" hopefully and order 126 :rotfl: :rotfl: . Expect more such campaigns from the usual other media outlets (Toilet, rrrundieTV and other for hire shops and hit jobs).

The big elephant which was left untouched, is why do you need the MMRCA at all ? Ordering more upgrade SU 30 MKIs with better equipment and jammers and stuff and their longer range, payload and endurance , and the LCAs along with MK1.5 and Mk2 will do the job. All this will be far cheaper and have higher capability and better economies of scale than the Rafale ! The SU-30 was not touched upon at all in the talk.

Plainly , it is obvious that the IAF ran the entire LCA program in bad faith from 2000 onwards and was bent on the MMRCA and for that it was nesessary to kill the LCA.It was the same old story carried over from the basic trainer, to AJT Hawk to other things. Now same play book cannot continue and the old foggies seem to try one last ditch at it.

Clearly, the Natashas know the game is up. The LCA is close to induction and the defense minister had the confidence in it to take the decision he has taken. The MK1.5 is a very credible alternative to the paper Rafale. With the AESA radar and the internal jammer , there is very little that the Rafale brings to the table beyond range and payload, where the SU-30 will do a far better job and can be fixed with the same electronic doo-dads in a MLU !

Parikkar has done a slam dunk. Good going. Nay.. Great Going Modi Sarkar!

Now it is over to DRDO/ADA and HAL to roll them out in numbers and get the MK1.5 and Mk2 in service ASAP.


Agree 100%.

Expect the anti LCA campaign to pick up.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 03 Jun 2015 22:36

Viv S wrote:
Singha wrote:derby (from IN stock) and gun need to get fired from the air .... and those missing 4 SP planes now long past the march date need to appear atleast by autumn.


I hope the Derby remains a stopgap solution and we don't order any new units. The Astra might be an year or two away from production but even in the Mk1 version it comfortably outmatched the Derby. Unfortunately, Rafael has released a shiny brochure for the new 'I-Derby' with a fancy new seeker, and is now sitting back waiting for the fish to bite.


The new version retains the same dimensions and maintains the kinematic performance of the original missile, while offering improved capabilities and flexibility to implement new operating modes, rendered by the new seeker.

The part in bold is critical to any BVR missile and which is where the Astra Mk1 will have an edge.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby fanne » 03 Jun 2015 22:37

1.5 is an out of box solution. Catch is that 1.0 can be built now and later upgraded to 1.5. So nothing is stopping building it now. mk2 will not come before 7-8 years. till then at a rate of 12-20 we can 100-160 of them.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sanjay » 03 Jun 2015 23:10

Other than ruminating here and elsewhere, is there any way to get a strong counter-narrative working ?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 04 Jun 2015 00:15

IAF is suffering from four of the six personality traits that lead to error/mistake zone.

-Anti-Authority: Don't tell me what to do!
- Invulnerability: It cant happen to me!
-Macho: I can to it!
- Mission-it is: I must get "it" right away!

A fifth uncharitable one is "I need my toy only and no substitutes!"

Some head pruning is needed immediately.
They are beyond listening to reason.

Going to Congressi media to dis govt. stance is not done.


BTW Congress most likely had a gravy train in this Rafale deal....

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2015 01:26

For even the price of 30 Rafales,

-how many Su-30, Mirage and MiG spares can be purchased? How many airframes will be added "back" to IAF roster
-how many PGMs, AAMs, EW aids can be procured?
-how many existing programs can be fast tracked?

The answers to above will show Rafale is not the only way to address combat power.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jun 2015 02:26

vina wrote:Now it is over to DRDO/ADA and HAL to roll them out in numbers and get the MK1.5 and Mk2 in service ASAP.


What is Tejas MK1.5? I can guess what it ought to be, but is this something official?
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 04 Jun 2015 02:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jun 2015 02:29

Singha wrote:but people are not prepared to 'see sense' and are instead trying to make the defmin 'see sense'


That puts a target mark on Parikkar's back. He joins the Modi, Shah, Doval club of *at risk* leaders from too many enemies

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 04 Jun 2015 02:32

Prem Kumar wrote:
vina wrote:Now it is over to DRDO/ADA and HAL to roll them out in numbers and get the MK1.5 and Mk2 in service ASAP.


What is Tejas MK1.5? Is this something official?


Another goalpost ... delay tactics :roll:

Some people don't understand that MLU and other minor upgrades can occur throughout the life of Mk.1 platform. You don't have to have it all at FOC.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 04 Jun 2015 04:05

ramana, IAF needs to be participating in NATO ops.. to get them to think about various realities and possibilities. Not that they don't have a theater-ops initiative and engaging themselves in mock wars, but that isn't anything like considering real-time ops. It has been ages since they are in a war. This is one of the reasons, we should befriend NATO countries, and become allies. call it 'IAF special ops' and strategic initiative ops.. or whatever, but what they feedback into strategies are from real-life war situation, and not some complex number theory games [how much ever real it can get to be].

this may sound odd, and people can go AK49 on me.. but heck we need this. This is one of the reasons, we see USAF in some engagement or the other with NATO. now, IAF can really take some "out sourcing" on ops. it can happen, and all depends on how we 'strategize'.

nato/russkies and block politics.. keep it under engagement rules onlee

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 04 Jun 2015 09:01

If they continue on current path of neti, neti or nyet, nyet to LCA, they will be come a very good NATO transportation force with all those C-17s etc....

rescue flights will be only special ops.

So better decide what they want to be?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby maitya » 04 Jun 2015 09:46

ramana wrote:If they continue on current path of neti, neti or nyet, nyet to LCA, they will be come a very good NATO transportation force with all those C-17s etc....

rescue flights will be only special ops.

So better decide what they want to be?

Yes, the "I" in it's acronym is increasingly looking to stand for "Imported" and is in danger of getting transformed into "UI" (Unaffordable Imported) pretty quickly - not very different from an exclusive-high-performance-flying-club org.

Long standing institutional-level changes are required - stuff like
1. some serious purging at Air Commodore+ levels,
2. mandatory formal engineering-background for the executive branch in IAF (more on this later - perfectly doable, almost implemented in IN already),
3. no promotion beyond Grp Cpt rank if not backed up with a follow-up formal masters engineering/mgmt degree from a formal Indian uni,
4. mandatory automatic invoking of NSA-based-investigation (a la Doval-ji) on any presstitude-based hawking for products by any ex-servicemen
etc etc

Yes, all good stuff, but who will bell the cat?
Mapa/NaMo has so far (admittedly too short a period to draw any conclusion) exhibited of following the so-called "middle path" which actually leads to no-where (e.g. the 38 Rafale drama-bazzi, no concrete plan on private, foreign/desi, companies for 2nd production line of LCA, maintaining status-quo on the inter-service ownership issue for the Apaches/Chinooks, more screwdrivergiri oriented stuff in M777 deal (as opposed to forcing in "Make in India") etc etc).

We will see ... by end of this FY-to-Jun/Jul'16 timeframe, with 1.5-2yrs under their belt, we should be able to judge what lays ahead in terms of any such transformation initiative etc being undertaking in future.

Until then it's usual programming of course ...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby maitya » 04 Jun 2015 10:20

^^^ wrt Pt. 3 above [OT for this thread]
If it's perfectly fine to clamor for “reservation” of senior mgmt. positions for retired IAF AM-level aphsaars in HAL and other PSUs, shouldn’t it be perfectly fine, on a reciprocal basis, reserve some positions (say 50%) in the IAF promotion boards (used to called as SPBs earlier, not sure what it’s known as nowadays) for HAL/DRDO/PSU serving senior mgmt. folks as MOD reps.

Should bring-about some much needed attitudinal changes to such byzantine-empire-building-via-imported-stuff at the higher echelons of IAF …

Food for thought?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2015 10:30

Karan M wrote:For even the price of 30 Rafales,

-how many Su-30, Mirage and MiG spares can be purchased? How many airframes will be added "back" to IAF roster
-how many PGMs, AAMs, EW aids can be procured?
-how many existing programs can be fast tracked?

The answers to above will show Rafale is not the only way to address combat power.


most AFs incl tier1 RAF and FrAF seem to suffer shortages of such key items and are unable to pursue anything at high intensity for more than 10 days before running back to big daddy asking for emergency supplies. atleast they have the choice of when to start a war and when to end it claiming victory.

india has no such choice vs china and must be prepared for atleast 60 days of all out war to be on the safe side. we do not remotely have enough spares and weapons for it, nor enough pilots, ground crew and bases. 20 yrs after MKI induction we learn there is no HAS to protect it because existing HAS were too small.

this must be the goal to top up all bins in the shop, prepare more manpower,base infra, protective SAM covers and a 75% uptime fleet wide
..once that is down we can have our own domestic red flag and invite friendly nations too.

else its more a 'mile wide inch deep model' unable to sustain a hard long fight....that model is the headcount model where a manager seeks a ego boost by claiming 500 shaky reports in his chart, instead of 50 reliable A+ performers. give them some hard work and 150 will immediately call in sick, another 150 will do nothing , the third 150 will do the wrong thing and the final 50 will have to do all their work and the fix the mess created by the others. :oops:

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 04 Jun 2015 13:50

If we leave all decision making to Gernails and Kernails of Armed forces ( equiv in IAF) then they will make us eat grass for thousand years without wining a single war. So if we want LCA we need to have FOC and development can be done in tranche/Blocks and incrementally. Branching off into heavier versions when adequate expertise becomes available.

Congress had/has gravy trains running in all major expenditure programmes running right from Block level functionaries to the Pappus at the top. MNGREGA is prime example. Farm loan waiver is another. All major scams involves selling public properties or events or large purchases. Besides there are several pipelines funneling funds from Banks/Corporates/Exchequers and what not.

This is a difficult task to dismantle such a deep C- System. LCA and Rafale are but one of the example. IAF or Army or Babucrazy are not immune to this system and have benefited immensely. The task falls on the Essentially an outsider with no future stake for himself or family to demolish it.

He has to fight many battles on many fronts , some with enemies and some with friends, to win the war. LCA will be lynchpin of Made In India policy.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2015 14:42

a "former member who does not wish to be named" has asked me to link this
Image

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 04 Jun 2015 15:24

I think Folks are confusing the need for MMRCA and then bring in Tejas into the debate to beat the MMRCA.

MMRCA process was initiated by ABV post Kargil war and at that time IIRC Tipnis was the CAS and an inprincipal approval for 126 M2K was accepted by GOI of the day , since the M2K performed quite well during Kargil it was logical choice.

Due to the fear that out right purchase or lic prod of M2K ( old BRF folks will remember French offer to set lic production in India and even local maintenance facility to refurbish/maintain M2K for Global customers )in India would cause Opposition to call it scam ABV decided to go for multi-vendor process.

The fact that it took 16 years to select Rafale among the contendor speak badly about our procurement process and decision making in GOI where terms were changed mid way on Offset and new DPP came into effect etc delaying the whole thing.

Now that we got the Rafale selected for 2 years it appears our coffers are not good to buy the 126 needed so just settling down for 36 which may change Parikar keep changing his statement.

But Rafale purchase and Tejas procurement which was originally pegged at 220 to replace Mig-21 still stands on this own feet and are mutually exclusive.

Tejas Mk2 is no where in sight and wont get into production before 2020 and by that time we will have many squadron of 21 and 27 number plated or decommisioned.

Be that it may be IAF will have to stay with lower squadron for some time till Tejas production takes off which is another mystery on what sustained rate HAL can deliver.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2015 15:30

the two are not mutually exclusive because there is no money to buy large numbers of both. and if tejas is lost, our great-grandkids will still be buying whatever is on the international market.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Tanaji » 04 Jun 2015 15:34

Perhaps one option is to launch a trial balloon that mulls the setting up of 3-4 squadrons for CAS equipped with LCA but under full control of the Army. They can use existing bases but for all practical purposes be Army assets. Should light a fire at least...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby titash » 04 Jun 2015 16:58

vina wrote:Haah. Finally something to warm the cockles of my heart. Just got off watching Karan Thapar's program with him interviewing former Air Chief Marshals Fali Major and PV Naik.

Parikkar & the Modi govt have really kicked the Natashas in the nuts. This entire program was a concerted attempt at why 36 Rafales were not "sufficient" , we should get 126 and Parikkar is being loony and the former ACMs squirming about trying to justify why Rafale alone will do the deal and why the LCA cant.

According to Major, the reason to get the Rafale is this. In a sub conventional conflict , we need to avoid collateral damage and need precision , like putting a missile in the 3rd window in the 6th floor a building and only the Rafale can do that and somehow he things the LCA cant! Ok. You need to spend a gazzillion dollars so that , you dont do collateral damage to a few Pakis! :shock: :shock:

Can someone please inform that gent that even as recently as Afghan campaign, the Rafale couldnt do its precision targeting itself and it had to have lasing support from Mirage 2000s ? In fact , the current versions of the Rafale dont fly with the AESA radars! All that is a promissory note (which will be delivered definitely.

Karan Thapar tried running down the LCA saying that it was no all that was made out to be , but PV Naik came out and said that it is a great plane, the test pilots and everyone with the program swear by it.But , the problem is , not capability ,but timeline, and that it should have come some 10 years ago, and the trouble is that there is not enough capacity to produce it in numbers and get it into operation.

Will someone please ask the gent his OWN role in making sure that it was delayed. Can we ask him about not even being bothered with the weapon specs, the updated specs and moving goal posts and everything. Okay, let that slide. BUT, if we are going to make the Rafale in India (importing 126 is out of question), we will need to setup a new production line, so will the timeline to get the local built Rafales be any different from rolling out the LCAs in numbers and which one will roll out quicker given the base that we already have for the LCA ?

Surely this Parikkar statement, and plans on LCA MK1.5 has stunned the Natashas. This entire Karan Thaapar business is an attempt to scramble to save the situation by running a media campaign on trying to make the minister "See Sense" hopefully and order 126 :rotfl: :rotfl: . Expect more such campaigns from the usual other media outlets (Toilet, rrrundieTV and other for hire shops and hit jobs).

The big elephant which was left untouched, is why do you need the MMRCA at all ? Ordering more upgrade SU 30 MKIs with better equipment and jammers and stuff and their longer range, payload and endurance , and the LCAs along with MK1.5 and Mk2 will do the job. All this will be far cheaper and have higher capability and better economies of scale than the Rafale ! The SU-30 was not touched upon at all in the talk.

Plainly , it is obvious that the IAF ran the entire LCA program in bad faith from 2000 onwards and was bent on the MMRCA and for that it was nesessary to kill the LCA.It was the same old story carried over from the basic trainer, to AJT Hawk to other things. Now same play book cannot continue and the old foggies seem to try one last ditch at it.

Clearly, the Natashas know the game is up. The LCA is close to induction and the defense minister had the confidence in it to take the decision he has taken. The MK1.5 is a very credible alternative to the paper Rafale. With the AESA radar and the internal jammer , there is very little that the Rafale brings to the table beyond range and payload, where the SU-30 will do a far better job and can be fixed with the same electronic doo-dads in a MLU !

Parikkar has done a slam dunk. Good going. Nay.. Great Going Modi Sarkar!

Now it is over to DRDO/ADA and HAL to roll them out in numbers and get the MK1.5 and Mk2 in service ASAP.


I watched the video on YouTube last night. P V Naik actually came out very reasonable. He explicitly stated that "the LCA is a top notch aircraft" and "people who have flown it/dealt with it will swear by it". His concerns were more on the production/induction/squadron formation schedule if anything else.

It was a Karan Thapar marketing campaign all along. Our dude was literally pushing the "36 Rafales are not enough; Parrikkar has made a mistake; MUST buy more Rafales; LCA bad/Rafale good" agenda every time he opened his mouth. This was no different from an AMWAY sales pitch :rotfl:

To his credit P V Naik seemed to be very uncomfortable with Thapar putting words in his mouth.

What surprises me is why the INC started and kept the LCA program in the first place. If INC and their associated media chelas are hell bent on import baksheesh, then why start the program in the first place?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby titash » 04 Jun 2015 17:01

Perhaps having an in-house R&D program enables them to negotiate better terms for import baksheesh? 10% kickbacks nahin chalega, 15% do warna LCA build karenge :-)

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_20453 » 04 Jun 2015 18:32

ramana wrote:IAF is suffering from four of the six personality traits that lead to error/mistake zone.

-Anti-Authority: Don't tell me what to do!
- Invulnerability: It cant happen to me!
-Macho: I can to it!
- Mission-it is: I must get "it" right away!

A fifth uncharitable one is "I need my toy only and no substitutes!"

Some head pruning is needed immediately.
They are beyond listening to reason.

Going to Congressi media to dis govt. stance is not done.


BTW Congress most likely had a gravy train in this Rafale deal....


You also forget 'money': We don't care how much things cost, we only want the ze best, cost is not for us to worry about'

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Jun 2015 18:59

Is there a collection of articles giving the case **FOR** indigenous development and production of combat systems? I posted one: on the LCA, debunking Adm. Nadkarni's bogus declarations. Sounds like there are many other bogus-expertise/ snake oil-peddlers out there, in and out of uniform. Plus the hordes of papparazzi and lifafas. But with all this constant :(( :(( :(( and breastbeating, amplifying what this or that lobbyist lied, where is the sober, thoughtful and precise narrative on why India should continue to develop indigenous capability?

(now that post would have been sooo much elegant and nicer if phrased in chaste pingreji, but if you guys want it out there in the open, there it is)

Kindly just list those references or point them out, pls. In case u didn't know, BRF threads are the most outstanding summaries to construct articles, with precise references, arguments and counter-arguments. It is so E-Z if one puts one's mind and musharraf (often co-located) to it. U should try it.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby brar_w » 04 Jun 2015 19:05

Singha wrote:the two are not mutually exclusive because there is no money to buy large numbers of both. and if tejas is lost, our great-grandkids will still be buying whatever is on the international market.


I don't that choice exists with the current establishment. MP, seems to have a highly positive attitude towards the LCA and ultimately that is what matters. The next 3-4 years will be crucial and decisions made in that time will have long term impact. The best way to change the IAF's attitude is to have a huge pool of pilots fly it, and have it incorporated into the IAF. Given the institutional support that seems to be this time around I feel the "danger" has long gone. Once a few squadrons are operational the IAF will realize how it can best operate with he aircraft and the capability that it brings over time (1.5, and ultimately MK2). Its tough to change organizational culture overnight but if there is larger leadership support (which seems to be the case) it can enforce a strategic objective and create those desired changes rather quickly. The future in my opinion is very secure for the LCA 1, and 2.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 04 Jun 2015 19:26

Ulanbatori wrote: where is the sober, thoughtful and precise narrative on why India should continue to develop indigenous capability

Whaa.. Where do you think this being played out ? This is India, not Ulanbator. What use is this sober , thoughtful precise thing. We dont do that here. What gets played out is some brain dead bleating and screaming at the top of the lungs with IQ levels at the 4th grade level.

What is being done is "media strategy" and FUD and throwing muck, with the hope that some of it will stick and turn the debate towards more favorable terrain. All this done by throwing money at the paid media and Natashas wiggling their hips hoping to land a John.

VK Singh was dead right on the Pressitutes.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2015 19:41

titash wrote:I watched the video on YouTube last night.

Can you please provide the youtube link? :)

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 04 Jun 2015 19:41

vina, UB is right. Countering/rebutting the core point is the Sanathan Dharma way. Think of Adi Shankara demolishing his opponents. And works in Indian milieu.


The core argument from IAF that they need planes quickly is demolished for importing will not get them the planes any faster.
It still takes a long time till 2022 to make up the years of wilderness which they contributed to.
In meantime regular crashes deplete a squadron every year. So it empty bases come up quickly.

Now even Hawks are crashing if anyone noticed.
Does the IAF chief want to be an empty air base commander with a transport fleet only good for relief operations?

Once that is demolished then other reasons start bubbling up.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 04 Jun 2015 19:44

Rakesh wrote:
titash wrote:I watched the video on YouTube last night.

Can you please provide the youtube link? :)



This response is Forum Member Maturity Index (FMMI) level 2.0

A next level 3.0 would be to look up youtube and find the link and post it here.

FMMI Level 4.0 is another member post the link.

FFMI level 5.0 would be if titash had posted the link himself.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 04 Jun 2015 19:45

ramana wrote:vina, UB is right. Countering/rebutting the core point is the Sanathan Dharma way. Think of Adi Shankara demolishing his opponents. And works in Indian milieu.

Well this is June 2015. You are living in the instant TV "debate", soundbyte a minute, mentally retarded,
and dumbed down age. This is the age of T20 cricket and attention spans in nanoseconds. Just like the hit and giggle T20, so it is basic mental faculties and use of it.

Adi Shankara wont work. Those were more civilized times with people actually using the grey matter between their ears.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2015 19:46

ramana wrote:This response is Forum Member Maturity Index (FMMI) level 2.0

A next level 3.0 would be to look up youtube and find the link and post it here.

FMMI Level 4.0 is another member post the link.

FFMI level 5.0 would be if titash had posted the link himself.

:rotfl: I already completed level 3. Could not find it, otherwise I would not have requested the link.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_23891 » 04 Jun 2015 19:59

Tanaji wrote:Perhaps one option is to launch a trial balloon that mulls the setting up of 3-4 squadrons for CAS equipped with LCA but under full control of the Army. They can use existing bases but for all practical purposes be Army assets. Should light a fire at least...


Then it will be a huge fire along with open can of worms. :lol: And IAF will find another excuse that LCA is not good enough for A to A mission and it fits for only novice people etc. Reverse psychology may not be the best way to deal with brats is rather cut them to their size and make them realize the reality or give them responsibility to make the Tejas a success story.

Other side IA is already struggling to manage even the basic assets and mordernisation programs like new Rifle, BPJs, artillary & armours. The CAS resposibility is next level thing and IA yet to attain capability in combat helicopters segment.

If nothing works this idea worth a try and just float a proposal.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Jun 2015 20:02

vinaji: This is also the age of WordPress. One can do serious damage in an hour, when amplified by AAT (Anmol Amplification Technology)

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby RamaY » 04 Jun 2015 20:15

Self delete
Last edited by RamaY on 04 Jun 2015 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2015 20:16

a SVP I listened to talked of 5 tribes analogy.
http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/1 ... ribes.aspx

take a look and think about where the DPSUs, IA, IAF are at...

Employee Tribes: Five Stages

Stage One: These tribes are distinguished by hostility and despair. Their members say things like "Life sucks."
Stage Two: These tribes are characterized by apathy and a sense of futility. They don't try, they don't care, they don't innovate, they don't hold one another accountable for anything, and they revel in their disengagement. Their members say things like "My life sucks."
Stage Three: Tribal members are selfish at this stage. They are in it for themselves, and they are extremely averse to collaboration. Their attitude is "I'm great . . . and you're not."
Stage Four: Tribe members have a sense of shared values; they willingly share knowledge and collaborate. Stage-four tribes are extremely competitive, but their competitive focus shifts to other tribes or companies. These tribes believe that "We're great . . . and they're not."
Stage Five: Tribes that attain this rare level are characterized by a sense of "innocent wonderment." They apply themselves to the creation of things no one has dreamed of and are frequently incredibly successful. These tribes say that "Life is great."

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2015 20:34


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 04 Jun 2015 20:45

LCA is not the replacement of Rafale. That much should be pretty clear. It is replacement for MIG series 21/27. It is called Light. Whereas Rafale comes under Medium Role which certainly indicates it is not Light with twin engines. When IAF floated the idea of Rafale , it would have certain operational profile for A/cs to be purchased. The tender called for 18 ( or one Sqdrn) ready to fly A/cs and rest 108 to be manufactured/assembled in India with TOT and offsets valued at certain %. Congoons had ample opportunities to finalise the deal but Tainted Saint did not have stomach to finalise it and UPA was reeling under Scams. He did not want any spot on his mundu. With depleting strength IAF desperately wanted A/cs. Hence no plan B except for Rafale which got technically qualified. NDA has offered compromise formula , as tender was tied up in knots by Tainted Saint, of buying 36 in fly away condition under G2G deal, scrapping tender and with promise to get more if they manufacture in India.All this is hinged upon price being right. There is a lot of noise about prices and that it should be below tendered amt etc which puts pressure on Dassault to rethink its strategy if it wants to grab the deal. I am not sure if any other country would have Rafale in this number, total 126, with promise of more. So they better come up with better offer. HAL will have to be co-opted, make no mistake on this account. But if they are not willing for MII then if pricing is right they may surely get order for 36. That much is given. else deal is off.

As far as LCA is concerned , IAF has some concerns. But it is a desi product and one can build it in numbers even if attrition rate is more. with use and time it is only going to improve. It would not only create more high end jobs but develop nascent Aviation Industry around this product. Fits neatly into MII category. we should order LCA as it is with understanding that ADA will keep on working to improve it and come up with variations and upgrades in defined tranche. expand budget and scope for ADA. HAL can also be funded to set up production line as part of pay outs for LCA order. Employees could be bound with performance and fired if necessary. Involve Private Industries to productionise it in collaboration with HAL. Building local capability is more important to war efforts than imported weapons systems which are prone to sanctions. Of course France and Russia are time tested in this regard but over reliance is not desirable.

Gripen is not on the table in lieu of LCA and IAF can not even insist for it. It has rejected it. So any hint for it to be replacement is just a trial balloon.


I am sure RM and PM are well aware of the dynamics and they understand the need for FUD to confuse the enemy about our true intentions.

Most importantly float the idea that next IAF chief would be not selected on seniority but with support for MII and Indigenous program. That could re-orient the thinking of many.


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