LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby kmkraoind » 04 Oct 2015 10:50

Paul wrote:LCA Mk2 is out of HAL's scope for now. Only way for making it reality is to give to the pvt sector. But then the question arises, can the country afford two separate production lines for essentially the same aircraft - diff versions.


As Rohitvats garu said above, India ordered more Su-30 MKIs CKDs from Russia since HAL is not keeping with the pace. It means we are relying 2 production lines for our SU-30s. If we need 2 lines for Su-30s, then whats wrong if we have 2 production lines for LCA (both lines will be in India only). No major nation can establish their own MIC having to rely on just 1 indigenous company and just 1 production line for huge numbers in quick time.

Its private sector headache (beg, borrow or steal), if they live up to their promises, there is nothing in trying them. 20 years back, has anybody thought someone will dethrone DoT/BSNL from telecommunication space.

If private sector proves their mettle in LCA, give a production line of AMCA too, even encourage them to produce different variants on LCA/AMCA platform (like Su-34).

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Paul » 04 Oct 2015 11:16

It was alluded in press reports that MK2 will go to the private sector. It appears to be going as per plan. TOI is refraining from spelling out the obvious

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2015 11:22

rohitvats wrote:
srai wrote: My question is when did the IOC-2 standard get certified for production to commence? Hint: Dec 2013
How was HAL supposed to built planes without that freeze in standards especially when the customer wanted that config for first 20 order?


A question to you: Who gave the timeline for production of LCA in IOC-2 configuration? Was it IAF, MOD or HAL?

If it is such a common knowledge that HAL requires 36 months to deliver that you quote it confidently here, I'm sure the chaps at HAL also know this. So, on what basis did they give the timeline that they did? And repeatedly?

Why blame others when they hold HAL for the timeline it promised?


FYI, this is what HAL had told Business Standard back in Dec 30, 2013 after IOC-2 standard was achieved and production could finally begin:

HAL to build 8, then 12, Tejas fighters each year

Ajai Shukla | Bangalore Dec 30, 2013 12:19 AM IST

On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) was cleared to enter operational service with the Indian Air Force (IAF). Now Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) faces the daunting transition from handcrafting Tejas prototypes into factory-assembling the 200-fighter Tejas fleet that Defence Minister A K Antony has envisioned.

...

Business Standard visited the new Tejas production line, an expansive 28,000-square metre facility in four massive hangars in HAL, Bangalore. Work is already underway on the first IAF order of 20 Tejas Mark I fighters, with an order for 20 more in the pipeline once the aircraft gets "final operational clearance" next year. The first two fighters being "series produced" - they are numbered SP-1 and SP-2 - are visibly taking shape.

"By end-March 2014, SP-1 will fly, and SP-2 will fly a few months later. By the end of next year four Tejas will be in production. In 2015-16, we will build six fighters, and in 2016-17, we will build nine. We are targeting an annual capacity of 12 Tejas fighters," says V Sridharan, the project manager hand-chosen to build the LCA. Earlier, he set up HAL's production line for the Hawk trainer.

...

The Tejas could be a game-changer. Firstly, HAL has played a major role both in designing the Tejas and in building prototypes for the flight-test programme. Secondly, HAL has brought a radically new approach to Tejas production, adopting global aerospace manufacturing standards and an unprecedented approach to quality control.

Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat.

"As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels," explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called "locators") on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.


It is evident from the focus of the laser trackers teams that it is painstaking work. This standardisation, and coordinating the flow of Tejas systems and sub-systems to the assembly line constitutes what Sridharan describes as the process of "stabilising" the Tejas line.

"Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.

That was the pattern while building the Hawk. After building just two aircraft in the first year, seven were built in the second year. In the third year, HAL built 18 Hawks, and the remaining 14 Hawks were produced within months.


...


It may be semantic but HAL's LCA project manager said x number will be in production between x-dates. He didn't say they will be delivered to the IAF by x date. So as per those statement interpretation, they are on schedule as they have been manufacturing 4 LCAs between end 2014 and till now. As per recent news, the delivery date to the IAF for those 4 is set for March 2016. The next set of 6 LCA is/will be in production starting sometime between 2015-16. So who can go down to the LCA assembly line to verify that the next 6 are taking shape?

On the timelines for SP1 and SP2, they were a way off. This maybe because they tried to rebuilt it to a much higher degree to IOC-2 standards than initially planned. SP2 may have completely undergone rebuild to IOC-2 standard. The IAF had said since the partially built SP1 and SP2 prior to IOC-2 standards will have some variations they won't use those for squadron formation.


rohitvats wrote:
If wanting planes faster (and to be supportive of a fledging indigenous aerospace industry), why wasn't IOC-1 standard (obtained Jan 2011) ordered? Hint: it was called a "three legged cheetah" by the IAF chief back then and no orders were placed.


Because IOC-1 standard was nothing but an exercise at salvaging some good PR for design and development agency, given the repeated slippages in timeline. IOC-1 and IOC-2 came about because of it and not because IOC-1 was some milestone which was supposed to be met by LCA.


My point being if you want to give a leg-up to your fledging aerospace industry every little support from the national user helps! Maybe down the road when Indian aerospace industry are mature and "world-class" there will be luxury to take a harder stance on what has been achieved.
Last edited by srai on 04 Oct 2015 11:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2015 11:34

^^^

In addition ...

First Tejas rolls out
...
HAL plans to build eight Tejas fighters annually by 2015-16. Since the build time of a modern fighter is two to two-and-a-half years, production and ordering of sub-systems must begin well in advance.
...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2015 11:48

How much of the non performance of HAL has to do with the subsystem supplier. I mean that for an assembly of a foreign design. HAL would have access to the supplier of the original manufacturer. While it built up domestic supplier base. But for the LCA this has to be done from the scratch. That may account for the poor performance of Hal assembly line.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 04 Oct 2015 12:23

Singha wrote:Achtung Bitte Achtung Bitte

as per TOI print edition today

- it reiterates the improvements from Mk1 to Mk1A and that 120-140 will be built with improved EW, IFR, aesa radar.
- Mk2 is scrapped
- AMCA is being fast tracked and 1st prototype demanded flying in 2023 or 2024.

- Modi to visit Rus soon and get some details on PAKFA. apparently it CANNOT supercruise yet which punches a hole in the look first shoot first deal. probably the Rus are hiding other incovenient facts about the 5th gen engine and test progress.


India today reports the same about mk2.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/light-combat-aircraft-tejas-to-end-the-critical-shortage-of-fighter-jets/1/489651.html

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2015 12:29

I saw the IAF chief video , what he said was he was not insisting on mk2 for mass induction but a mk1 or call it any thing in agreed changes will induct in 120 numbers .

Mk2 is still years away for by 2023 if all goes well in interim 7-8 years IAF can induct 120 tejas ,

Its a change in stance from previous IAF stand where IAF insisted of onlee Mk2 in large number which is positive news

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 04 Oct 2015 13:11

Austin wrote:I saw the IAF chief video , what he said was he was not insisting on mk2 for mass induction but a mk1 or call it any thing in agreed changes will induct in 120 numbers .

Mk2 is still years away for by 2023 if all goes well in interim 7-8 years IAF can induct 120 tejas ,

Its a change in stance from previous IAF stand where IAF insisted of onlee Mk2 in large number which is positive news


To understand what IAF thinks, says, wants out of LCA and other projects the best thing is to watch the interview of ACM Raha, instead of going on with speculation and bashing away :) . Austin posted it on the Indian Military Aviation thread and I am cross posting here:


Austin wrote:Here is IAF full Press Conference Video


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 04 Oct 2015 13:15

Same to article said jv of pakfa is gloomy and we eventually just get 60 of them off the shelf. This is way down from even the 144 reduced figure earlier

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2015 13:27

^^^
What's with small quantities again of yet another type?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 04 Oct 2015 13:37

srai wrote:^^^
What's with small quantities again of yet another type?


srai ji listen to the Press Conference in full.

Edited.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2015 13:52

Media has put lot of Mirch masala to press conf , good we have video , how do these media people openly twist facts

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 04 Oct 2015 14:00

rohitvats wrote:Pointless obstinacy? Your skin in the game is no more than writing a post on a forum like this. As is mine. If things don't work out, nothing happens to your daily life, nor does it to mine. For ignorance is bliss. And none of us will get to see the real picture which IAF and its planners deal with everyday.

But for someone whose job is to ensure the defense of Indian skies 24 x 7 and without fail, everything and anything to do with a platform counts. LCA joining in large numbers in preset form (Mk1) might give a sense of achievement & fulfillment to people on the forum but it does not if does not address the requirement of the operator and allows him to do his duty, the country of origin will be hardly any solace.

A similar argument has been used to justify the IA's continuing purchases of the T-90.

Besides, would you describe the MiG-21 & MiG-27 as 'platforms that count'? And if so, nothing stops the Tejas from doing as much and more for the operator.

At this point, there should not be any doubts about the integration of IFR, radar or Derby in the minds of anyone following the program (which one presumes includes the IAF). Given how far it has come, technologically speaking these are very minor hurdles and therefore do not justify delaying sanction for a ramp up in production capacity.


All very nice and dandy to say when one does not have the full picture. By same logic, a couple of SP aircraft should have already been with IAF. And IJT should've been already in service training rookies pilots.

IAF's preferred solution is not a cookie cutter approach which you make it to be....LCA and MMRCA are not in the same league. Whether we get Rafale or more Su-30MKI, the 7 squadron worth of slot for MMRCA will not be filled by LCA.

If ADA had been tasked with the development of the IJT, who knows, it may already have been in service.

To clarify though, what you seem to be suggesting is that Tejas Mk1's FOC which has been deferred from Dec 2015 to Apr 2016, may actually only happen by 2018 or later. Therefore, investments in increased production (tooling, land, training etc) should be deferred. (I'm assuming a three year production cycle, therefore - 2018.)

And the Tejas and MMRCA are indeed not in the same league. One of them costs $30M, the other $200M. Agonizing over the choice of MMRCA is to be expected. Sanctioning Tejas production in contrast should have been an easy decision to make.

It was an easy decision for the PAF. It inducted the $25M JF-17 without a BVR weapon, without HMD, without IFR or without LDP. They had two squadrons in service before the SD-10A was operationalized. Both squadrons are BVR capable today. Production rate is being raised from 18/yr to 24/yr. With the Blk 3, they'll have IFR, HMD, tandem pylons, ALCMs and possibly AESA. All capabilities that flow back to serving aircraft save for the IFR probe which will be retrofitted by 2022 IIRC and the AESA at a later stage.

Its the same story world over. F-16 deliveries totalled 300 aircraft before it was equipped with a night vision configured cockpit, and had 1,800 units in service before it got a BVR weapon. The Rafale and Eurofighter had respectively about 100 & 150 aircraft in service before they got basic precision strike capability (a capability the Tejas already has today). The F-35 program has delivered some 150 fighters with USAF IOC still 12 months away. The F-22 which IOCed in 2005, won't have an HMS till about 2020.

But in the Tejas' case, investment in scaled-up production ought to be deferred until every last bit of FOC capability has been demonstrated in practice??!! Even if, objectively speaking, only a few months worth of integration work is pending (and that too mostly on account of delayed deliveries from Cobham).

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2015 14:23

deejay wrote:Here is IAF full Press Conference Video



Thanks for posting

The press, given their collective intelligence has misinterpreted and misreported.

If you start at Exactly 35 minutes you will hear the CAS say that they had asked for one squadron of IOC level, one squadron of FOC and later 6 squadrons of "mark 2"

When reporters insisted on asking details of whether IAF wants "mark 2" Raha says at least twice that this terminology of mark 1, 1a and 2 have been used but he would not use that . They will take Tejas as it is and accept all (four) improvements as promised in later inductions. The names Mark 1 1a and 2 is something that he preferred not to use. He says IAF will take Tejas but delivery timelines have slipped and this needs to speed up.

He clearly states that HTT40 will be accepted when it comes . But from his talk it appears that IJT may be excluded from IAF's plan. They already have started a two stage training with Pilatus and Hawk.

One more interesting fact - just one sentence. "One more production line will be needed" and that is in addition to Tejas. As deejay said there may be a small c.h.ink open for SHornet and the French may be thanked for their help with Rafale. This is just my speculation. Why not Gripen, MiG 35 or EF? Just speculation like I said. I see SHornet as the most likely under the circumstances. The Americans are willing and able.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 04 Oct 2015 14:30

Merkel is coming, so don't rule out Typhoon production line. It is the most produced aircraft at the moment with the most hours being clocked. All bugs are being fixed. I'd prefer it to SHornet or anything else.

And, interestingly, no mention of PAKFA/FGFA in the presser.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2015 14:55

JTull wrote:And, interestingly, no mention of PAKFA/FGFA in the presser.


Actually there is he just said discussion is done at the highest level regarding production technology etc

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JTull » 04 Oct 2015 15:03

But PAKFA is not mentioned in terms of needing more aircraft and the procurement plans as in the case of
- 100 of Rafale type
- 80 extra LCA Mk1/1A/2
- AMCA
- HTT 40

IJT had the honour of a mention too as an aircraft that's very late and not in plans for next 2-3 years.

But seems he cannot see PAKFA on the horizon in any realistic terms.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 04 Oct 2015 15:08

JTull wrote:Merkel is coming, so don't rule out Typhoon production line. It is the most produced aircraft at the moment with the most hours being clocked. All bugs are being fixed. I'd prefer it to SHornet or anything else.

^ Second most produced. Super Hornet comes in third; its production rate has been rolled back down to 18/yr.

However neither can coexist with the Rafale. Only way they get a shot, is if the Rafale deal falls through. And if the Rafale deal does fall through, well.. there's a reason none of the three types are doing too well in the export market.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Austin » 04 Oct 2015 15:30

They wont open a new production line if Rafale does not go beyond 36 in the future , it would either be Tejas or MKI

Indeed Parrikar has mentioned MKI as plan B if Rafale fails

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2015 16:23

PAKFA and AMCA are mentioned as aircraft that will be needed in 15 years time when upgraded MiG 29s, Jags and Mirages will need to be retired. Raha is hopeful that good cooperation between IAF, DRDO, ADA and HAL along with pulling in pvt agencies will achieve the necessary results.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 04 Oct 2015 16:48

I'd not be surprised if pakfa is scrapped and focused on AMCA. You call it whatever.. LCA Mk1a, b, Mk2... better focus on that platform to deliver a F16 base for desh. Rest is magic for AMCA. It would only take 3-4 LCA squads and feedbacks to get the ball rolling on AMCA versions.

Make a LCA - twin engine wala to make Rafale look & feel. That might perhaps give some advantage in this politics. Rafale is too darn expensive platform to build on. couple of squads and be done with it! no more of this mother of all projects. heck! what a waste of time and money.

Get the French, German and American quality concepts home! that is a big learning. move towards test setups, jigs, production engineering and make in India. Invest those billions in building a 120kN kaveri or 135kN ganga!.. and please put that 80kN on a LCA test bed. please please

====


JTull, Merkel will focus on the subs and not typhoon. it is a waste of time for her too

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 04 Oct 2015 17:00

For those of us fantasizing about a Make in India production base and R&D linkage in the private sector, here is a cautionary tale:

" Tonbo is a little-known company, but its advanced night vision systems are made for Indian and international customers including Darpa, a branch of the U.S. Department of Defense, responsible for the development of emerging technologies for use by the military. Tonbo’s products are used on observation platforms, reconnaissance drones, and artillery and naval weapon systems.

Tonbo is the only indigenous manufacturer and exporter of thermal imaging-based devices. But from being a purely Indian company, Tonbo has moved to become a global products business based out of Singapore. Its international expansion was largely fuelled to leverage the benefits offered to international suppliers on buy-global Indian programmes.

“Indian suppliers are levied customs duties at the component level and taxes at the product level,” said Tonbo founder Arvind Lakshmikumar, an alumnus of BITS Pilani and Carnegie Mellon University. “Foreign bidders don’t face this problem. This creates a clear 30-40 per cent difference in just government levies.”

Tonbo is among a growing list of Indian start-ups that have moved base to overseas markets such as Singapore, the U.S. and the U.K., which have business-friendly tax regimes and regulations. Excessive red tape in processes such as early-stage investing and mergers and acquisitions is also forcing these young, promising ventures in India to shift overseas. "

http://www.thehindu.com/sunday-anchor/o ... epage=true

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 04 Oct 2015 17:10

shiv wrote:
deejay wrote:Here is IAF full Press Conference Video



...

One more interesting fact - just one sentence. "One more production line will be needed" and that is in addition to Tejas. As deejay said there may be a small c.h.ink open for SHornet and the French may be thanked for their help with Rafale. This is just my speculation. Why not Gripen, MiG 35 or EF? Just speculation like I said. I see SHornet as the most likely under the circumstances. The Americans are willing and able.


Wouldn't that mean Su-30MKI production line? If I were to interpret "one more production line" in addition to LCA, then logically (from fleet/infrastructure standardization and rationalization) that option should be the existing Su-30MKI line, which is churning out around 12 MKIs/year from raw materials.

Why induct yet another type? None of MRCA contenders are cheap by any means especially when ToT, weapons, LCC and infrastructure are factored in. Well, as Philip would put it, the "cheapest" initial acquisition cost wise may be the MiG-35 :P Not to mention the political baggage that come with all of them.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2015 17:24

Looks like more work for the RM to reexamine IAF force structure and explain to AHQ that if they want their 48-50 squadron forces, that can ONLY happen with LCA Mk2 also in play. Managing with only LCA Mk1, Mk1A should not be the end game. To simplify things adapt the Naval Mk2 into the LCA one if need be, with weight reduction of some components as naval requirements tend to be more rigid.
AHQ seems obsessed with only medium-heavy platforms and that is not what is necessary for the PAF or even affordable for fleet expansion.

If AMCA is to be accelerated, put more work into pvt sector and expand ADA/HAL d&d as well. Don't stop the LCA whose platform has a lot of potential.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_22605 » 04 Oct 2015 17:32

The second production line will most likely be in the aircraft division bangalore which will finish the production of hawks in 2017 so that line can be used to produce LCAs this will greatly increase the numbers produced per year from 2017. Just my thoughts
Cheers!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 04 Oct 2015 17:36

Singha wrote:we are all fitting a tremendous number of theories to explain the Mk1A. I hope its not the simplest explanation - HAL unable to cope and trying to buy time with a carrot.


I'd see it from a different perspective, HAL is desperate for LCA orders. Back in the day when the MRCA and the FGFA were still on, HAL had very little incentive to invest in the LCA and its production line, given the paltry confirmed orders for the LCA, much lower value of each LCA and and the lower technical risk doing screwdriver-giri. The cancellation of the MRCA (no fighters assembled in India) and the uncertainty over the PAK-FA/FGFA have put HAL in a tight spot. By 2018/19 the the Su-30 MKI line (which I'm sure makes up a good % of HAL's 15k crore INR revenue) will close down. The LCA Mk1 orders will also be competed soon after that, with the Mk2 probably not coming on line till 2024. Which would mean it would not be churning out any fighters for a few years between Mk1 and Mk2, and possibly between Mk2 and AMCA. Plus apart from the the LCA the product pipeline for HAL's fixed wing division looks pretty precarious - IJT(will it ever enter service?), HTT-40 (not wanted by the IAF), FGFA (may never materialize), MTA ( :roll: ).

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2015 17:46

raghuk wrote:The second production line will most likely be in the aircraft division bangalore which will finish the production of hawks in 2017 so that line can be used to produce LCAs this will greatly increase the numbers produced per year from 2017. Just my thoughts
Cheers!


Wasn't that supposed to shift over to the IJT?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2015 17:54

Karan M wrote:that can ONLY happen with LCA Mk2 also in play.

In the video Raha asks that this Mark 1, 2 etc terminology should be given up. He says IAF will take Tejas as is and wants production to be ramped up and expects that the 4 promised improvements be implemented over time and these are multimode radar, IFR probe, AAMs and one other thing that I can't recall. He wants LCA as it is now if possible

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2015 18:08

Shiv, he says only 6 squadrons (108 airframes) for the LCA after the first 40. If all these are Mk1A (or whatever desig) or 60 are for Mk1A, then only 48 are left for Mk2 (or whatever designation). IAF needs to commit/plan for more light fighters, they will otherwise not be able to expand.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2015 18:39

Karan M wrote:Shiv, he says only 6 squadrons (108 airframes) for the LCA after the first 40. If all these are Mk1A (or whatever desig) or 60 are for Mk1A, then only 48 are left for Mk2 (or whatever designation). IAF needs to commit/plan for more light fighters, they will otherwise not be able to expand.

He first says 1 sq IOC Tejas, followed by 1 sq FOC Tejas and later 6 sq Mk 2 and he clarifies that 6 sq id 120 airframes at 20 per sq. Mumbles a bit here

It is only after that that he makes some statements that I did not hear clearly but to me he seemed to say that 120 airframes Tejas is still not enough. There will need to be a separate line (producing what he does not specify) but he certainly says that we need MMRCA class aircraft which (if I recall right) he says that LCA will not be able to fulfil. I will have to retune that part and listen again

Listen from 35 minutes exactly link below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... FaA#t=2100

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 04 Oct 2015 18:47

Yes, I think he indicated clearly HAL has firm 160 A/Cs of 8Sqrdns size with 20 A/cs in each.He also talked about progressive improvements as HAL themselves promised. Not particular about nomenclature but ready to take 120 Tejas conforming to specifications .

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2015 18:50

Listen exactly from here for about 1 minute. He says that another line will be needed and Tejas alone will not be sufficient
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... FaA#t=1569

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 04 Oct 2015 18:52

I think Raha comments can be easily interpreted to mean that IAF will take what HAL makes, but HAL is just whining without doing anything on ground.

NOTE:- Assembly of a new aircraft takes less than one year after long lead items are ordered which takes 36 months . Funds for long lead items were alloted in 2006 & 2010. The present f×××kup errrrrr delay is all on account of HAL

nirav
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 04 Oct 2015 19:11

rohitvats wrote:
IAF Chief is only asking for what was promised and agreed. And like any operator, he will ask for proof whether it works or not. Because he has a small problem of defending the country's sky to address.


***Rant Self Delete*** :oops:
Last edited by nirav on 04 Oct 2015 20:25, edited 1 time in total.

member_22605
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_22605 » 04 Oct 2015 19:14

Gyan wrote:I think Raha comments can be easily interpreted to mean that IAF will take what HAL makes, but HAL is just whining without doing anything on ground.

NOTE:- Assembly of a new aircraft takes less than one year after long lead items are ordered which takes 36 months . Funds for long lead items were alloted in 2006 & 2010. The present f×××kup errrrrr delay is all on account of HAL

When was the LCA design frozen? What exactly is HALs fault here?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_22605 » 04 Oct 2015 19:17

Karan M wrote:
raghuk wrote:The second production line will most likely be in the aircraft division bangalore which will finish the production of hawks in 2017 so that line can be used to produce LCAs this will greatly increase the numbers produced per year from 2017. Just my thoughts
Cheers!



Wasn't that supposed to shift over to the IJT?

IJT would come up at kanpur trainers and transports are generally made in kanpur

shiv
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Oct 2015 19:18

Raha says clearly that they will take Tejas as it is now, but wants deliveries. He says that he expects that in future newer airframes delivered will have other things as promised (that they presumably do not have now) that is Radar, EW, IFR and missiles. He also mentioned in another context that the Air Force will cooperate with PSU agencies and they will jointly take responsibility and accountability. Of course the PSUs need to deliver.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 04 Oct 2015 19:24

Frankly I find the ACM Raha's statement about "no Mk1, Mk1A or Mk2, we want Tejas" more confusing. From what he said (around 36:00 to 38:00), IAF wants all 120 to be upgraded to FOC standard (Tejas in current config along with those 4 improvements mentioned whenever they are available) in response to one reporter when asked specifically about MK-2, he said IAF not insisting on it as of now. (Someone should have asked specifically about new engine and extended length version as these changes cannot be retro-fitted in MK1/1A later).


Meanwhile, SJha uwach..

Reduced drag,better TWR, next gen composites, reduced RCS, AESA,next gen Astra +Israeli AAMs. The Tejas Mk-2 is going to be kick-ass!

UEWS, next gen displays , new RLG-INS. It's going to be really potent in strike as well.

That 'one more production line' will be the F-16. It is being offered at a very low price.


With all these improvements and potential weight reduction (simply because better technology is available now in terms of analysis, production, miniaturization and experience), I don't see how MK2 is any less than F-16. May be some differences here and there but the advantages of having our own a/c outweighs all of those. IAF can induct 2-3 more squadrons of Su-30MKI to full-fill that gap. If now IAF buys 6 squadrons of any a/c other than Rafale it will fly in the face of the logic which is always put forward by armed forces all the time about having common platforms for infrastructure/maintenance ease , training and what not. If we buy F-16 or any other MMRCA contenders for that matter we would be fools.

I would rather have that money put in MK2 development - expand ADA, whip around HAL (get a private player for mfg if it comes to that), make it happen double quick. But please stop this non-sense of getting one more variety of system. IAF is an air-force for god's sake not a Smithsonian Aerospace museum that we will collect all types of aircrafts under the Sun. Those 6 MMRCA squadrons should be filled by MK2 supplanted by 2-3 Su-30MKI squadrons if need be.

Just like IAF has commited on MK1 now with 120 number, IAF needs to commit NOW on MK2 and spell out all that they expect from it. If a private player needs to be given mfg contract it has to be done from NOW. Please understand that no private player will want to set up assembly line unless government underwrites the risk almost entirely. Which means either GOI funds the set-up cost or guarantee large number of orders for recovery of set-up cost and enough profit. If IAF says we want 200+ LCA MK2 with all TFTA features, then its possible to expand ADA to put more man/machine resources on design work, rope in a private player which will have a production facility ready by the time MK2 is certified along with entire supply-chain and plan better for entire project.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2015 19:24

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:Shiv, he says only 6 squadrons (108 airframes) for the LCA after the first 40. If all these are Mk1A (or whatever desig) or 60 are for Mk1A, then only 48 are left for Mk2 (or whatever designation). IAF needs to commit/plan for more light fighters, they will otherwise not be able to expand.

He first says 1 sq IOC Tejas, followed by 1 sq FOC Tejas and later 6 sq Mk 2 and he clarifies that 6 sq id 120 airframes at 20 per sq. Mumbles a bit here

It is only after that that he makes some statements that I did not hear clearly but to me he seemed to say that 120 airframes Tejas is still not enough. There will need to be a separate line (producing what he does not specify) but he certainly says that we need MMRCA class aircraft which (if I recall right) he says that LCA will not be able to fulfil. I will have to retune that part and listen again

Listen from 35 minutes exactly link below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... FaA#t=2100


Shiv, thanks for digging this up.

So he's basically saying 40 Tejas IOC 20 and FOC 20 and all 120 aircraft (6 squadrons at 20 aircraft each) will be Tejas "as it is with improvements as suggested by themselves (ADA/HAL)" - radar, EW, better missiles (means Derby ER vs Derby), IFR. Repeatedly says "upgrades" are possible, implying perhaps even the first 40 will be brought to a common standard.

This basically means Mk2 is not there or required by IAF. But he says "negotiations are still on, discussions are still on". So 6 squadrons can be a split of Mk1 and Mk2 though as Air Chief says "we are not insisting on it".

No increase in 6 squadrons. This is the part that is disappointing but I can live with it.

For the first time, we have the IAF chief on record with a 6 squadron order above and beyond the first 40, taking the overall numbers to 160. Ninety percent of media reports were fixated on the overall Mk2 orders being 4 squadrons and the overall numbers Tejas numbers (Mk1 and Mk2) being around 108 not 160.

So in all likelihood, there can still be 40 MKI (IOC/FOC - all brought to FOC standard), followed by 60 (3sq) of Mk1A, followed by 60 (3 sq) of Mk2 - as reported by media before this conference - if ADA/HAL still push for Mk2 and IAF agrees. The Navy has their Mk2 plan still on. I think thats around 56 airframes including prototypes.

Where I disagree with the Air Chief is this limiting the Tejas numbers to 160 total. They need more than 8 squadrons. On the one hand they say they don't have enough airframes and need 50+ squadrons for a two front war. OTOH, Su-30 and Rafale are both too expensive to field in plenty.
By all means have the Tejas Mk2 lengthened and redesigned for greater fuel carriage and unfree it from the MiG-21/27 shackles if need be. But get more of the bird in hand versus imaginary birds that we can't afford in number yet the IAF is fixated on them.

IMHO, they need at least 220 Tejas. These will be our workhorse for CAS, CAP, tactical strike and can do the bulk of the heavy lifting against TSP backed up by Su-30s. Leaving the bulk of the Su-30s, Rafales and PAKFAs free against PRC.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 04 Oct 2015 19:27

In short what IAF current plan is:
Tejas Mk1 (20: IOC), 20: FOC - all to be brought to Mk1.5 standard (signified by CAS saying we only want Tejas all of 1 standard)
Tejas Mk1.5 (120) - with Mk2 uncertain (discussions are going on, all we want is Tejas)

I hope they add another 6 squadrons for Mk2.
Last edited by Karan M on 04 Oct 2015 19:32, edited 1 time in total.


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