LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Anujan » 07 Oct 2015 12:05

We should have a caption competition to supply headlines which can beat these headlines in sensationalism.

Modi government displaying Xenophobia and deporting foreign migrant planes who want to come to India for a better life and job

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2015 12:07

srai wrote:Well ... take a look at page 5 on the LCA brochure from Dec 2013:DRDO-ADA - LCA Tejas IOC2 Brochure Final - Dec 2013
...Production Equipment Standard of Preparation & Drawing Applicability Lists (SOP/DAL) released...
That was at IOC-2.

Does it mention the complete ESOP/DAL was released? No. They key word is frozen.

Refer page 48 of CAG report Section 4.5.1 Frequent changes in design after release of standard of preparation
Due to frequent and continuous changes in design, each of the aircraft differed in its configuration and as a result even LSP-8 fell short of the standard required for achievement of IOC. These design changes resulted in addition of 3041 new drawings, 3965 changed drawings and cancellation of 245 drawings.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 07 Oct 2015 12:09

^^^

That CAG report doesn't say anything about IOC-2 SOP/DAL. All it says is previous LCAs (LSPs) were built to different standards, which is a known fact. IOC-2 is being built to exact standards as reported here.

Dec 30, 2013
...
Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat.

"As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels," explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called "locators") on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.

It is evident from the focus of the laser trackers teams that it is painstaking work. This standardisation, and coordinating the flow of Tejas systems and sub-systems to the assembly line constitutes what Sridharan describes as the process of "stabilising" the Tejas line.

"Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.
...


Build time of LCA is 2 to 2.5 years. That would put it at Jun 2016, which is 2.5 years from Dec 2013 (IOC-2), when first lot delivery of 4 units can be expected. Production will scale up thereafter (and the process of subsystems should already be in the pipeline given long lead times required).

...
"Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.

That was the pattern while building the Hawk. After building just two aircraft in the first year, seven were built in the second year. In the third year, HAL built 18 Hawks, and the remaining 14 Hawks were produced within months.
...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 07 Oct 2015 12:44

Srai,

I do agree with your post on manufacturing. The June 2016 deadline is realistic.

And as to those members who believe 100s could've been manufactured earlier, the answer is no, it couldn't. Development flight trials were simply not completed at that point of time to enable manufacture. Only after December 2013 was Tejas cleared to fly without telemetry. The PIB release explains the details well.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 07 Oct 2015 12:52

How can SOP/DAL be frozen 3 years ago (September 2012) when wake penetration trials, all weather clearances were still being carried out?

And is wake penetration trials and all weather clearances something exotic that IAF is asking? Isn't it part of normal development trials of any fighter aircraft?

The RAF inducted the much ballyhooed Typhoon with a lump of concrete in the nose where the radar should have been. Even the gun has hadnt' been fitted. What about wake penetration and full envelope ? Were they done before getting inducted ?
Could the Typhoons AND the Rafale when they were inducted drop any A2G munitions ? Did the Rafale have a pod and could it designate a target by itself until very recently ?

Lets face it what the IAF wants a a fully developed version which typically happens only some 5 years or so after the platforms get inducted. It is give me a fully developed plane or I won't accept anything (as long as it is local of course), but th


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 07 Oct 2015 13:28

srikven wrote:http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/pm-modi-pushes-obsolete-made-in-india-plane-on-reluctant-military-1148132.html


reuters lifafabaazi
Modi turns down IAF's request for more foreign fighter planes, nudges it to accept 'obsolete' Tejas jets
Posted on: 01:32 PM IST Oct 07, 2015 | Updated on: 1:57 pm,Oct 7,2015 IST
Reuters

More+

New Delhi: The government has turned down the military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 fighter planes from Dassault Aviation SA to plug vital gaps, officials said, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane 32 years in the making.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi's decision, in line with his Make-in-India policy to encourage domestic industry, is a blow for not only the French manufacturer but also others circling over the Indian military aviation market worth billions of dollars.

The push for India's struggling Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) also comes at a time when the air force is at its weakest operational strength since the 1962 war against China, which is causing anxiety within military circles.

Since it took over in 2014, the Modi administration has repeatedly said its overriding goal is to cut off the military's addiction to foreign arms which has made it the world's top importer.

The air force wanted the government to clear an additional 44 Rafale medium multirole aircraft on top of the 36 that Modi announced during a visit to Paris in 2015 that are to be bought off-the-shelf to meet its urgent requirements.

But a defence ministry official said that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had told the air force that there weren't enough funds to expand the Rafale acquisition and that it must induct an improved version of the indigenous Tejas-Mark 1A.

"The IAF (air force) needs to have a minimum number of aircraft at all times. The LCA is our best option at this stage, given our resource constraints," the defence official said.

"The Rafale is our most expensive acquisition. The LCA is our cheapest in the combat category."

India's air force says it requires 45 fighter squadrons to counter a "two-front collusive threat" from Pakistan and China. But it only has 35 active fighter squadrons, parliament's defence committee said in a report in April citing a presentation by a top air force officer.

With the drawdown of Soviet-era MiG 21 planes under way, the air force would be down to 25 squadrons by 2022 at the current pace of acquisitions, it told the committee.

Cleared by the government in 1983, the LCA designed by the government's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was meant to be the backbone of the air force due for induction in 1994.

Instead, it suffered years of delay and chaos with scientists trying to build the world's most modern light combat aircraft from scratch, including the engine.

Eventually they scrapped the engine, turning to GE Aviation and lowering their ambitions for a state-of-the-art fighter. So far, only one aircraft has been produced and even that is awaiting final operational clearance, now delayed to early 2016.

"In January this year, they had given one LCA ... which had not completed its flight testing. They handed over the papers to us. We do not make a squadron with one aeroplane. That is where we are," said an air force officer speaking on condition of anonymity.

SAFETY CONCERNS

An independent investigation by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India into the LCA programme identified 53 "shortfalls" in the plane. In a report in May, the auditor said that the plane wasn't as light as promised, the fuel capacity and speed were lower than required and there were concerns about safety.

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defence Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

"We would like to have the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) variety of aircraft. At least about six squadrons, to my mind," the head of the air force, Arup Raha, said at the weekend, referring to the Rafale class of fighters.

But K. Tamilmani, the DRDO's aerospace chief, said the modified version of the Tejas addressed most of the air force concerns. These included electronic warfare system, flight computer, radar and maintenance problems.

"Almost all the problems get solved with the 1A. There will always be scope for improvement, but there are no flight safety issues," he said.

State-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited would be able to ramp production to 16 a year by 2017 to meet the air force's demands, he said.

"We Indians are extremely good at blaming each other - at blaming it all on Indian production."

Dassault declined any comment on the government's decision to cap the Rafale fleet.


A source close to Sweden's Saab, which has been pushing its Gripen light fighter, said that it was respectful of India's decision to try to develop its domestic military base.

"There's still a huge gap that needs to be filled. We are marketing it (the Gripen) under the Make-in-India umbrella," he said. "Even if you add the seven squadrons of the Tejas, there is still a requirement (with MiGs retiring etc). It’s a question of timing. Can they build these for when they need them?"

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_22539 » 07 Oct 2015 13:32

^Working like clockwork, dissing Tejas as soon as soon as it got firm orders in numbers. These presstitutes are so predictable. I wonder if the F-16 thing didn't pan out as khan wants.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 07 Oct 2015 13:35

tsarkar wrote: Without testing the quartz radome that has just been delivered, test firing the Derby, on what basis would SOP/DAL for FOC be frozen?

So HAL is not responsible for the delay. It is ADA? perhaps. Or development of new platform does take time and we need to be patient.


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 07 Oct 2015 13:42

srai wrote:
Well ... take a look at page 5 on the LCA brochure from Dec 2013:

DRDO-ADA - LCA Tejas IOC2 Brochure Final - Dec 2013
...
Production Equipment Standard of Preparation & Drawing Applicability Lists (SOP/DAL) released
...


That was at IOC-2.

if that is correct and contrary to what tsarkarji believes, SOP/DAL was ready as early as 2013. IAF could have put in order for 120 then itself. HAL would have been able to setup production line and suppliers well in time. I think you pointed out that leadtime is 36 months from order to first plane being delivered.

On the other hand I believe that order for 40 in IOC-1 and 2 configuration was already with HAL. What prevented HAL to go for full scale production then? They had no assurance from IAF of further orders, changing goalposts? 40 could have been over in 5 years . After that , what? idle investment in assembly line? that is waste of scarce finances.

Again, KaranM has posted pictures of HAL assembly line. What is that??


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby sankum » 07 Oct 2015 13:49

SEBI investigations into scams in share market revealed that Rs 50000 is the rate to get paid news published in top newspapers to influence share prices.

Overall such propaganda devoid of factual reporting is in bad taste, so much so of our brave and independent media.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 07 Oct 2015 13:53

tsarkar wrote:Not quite. From ADA itself http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/genesis.html
Phase 1 - TECHNOLOGY DEMONSTRATION STAGE (TD-1 & 2) The focus in this phase was on ‘proof of concept’. It entailed the development and testing of two technology demonstrator aircraft. These aircraft were called TD-1 and TD-2. The decision to move forward was to be taken after the successful completion of this phase. This would be followed by the production of additional prototype vehicles.

Its basic program management that unless a PoC is meets parameters, one cannot take a decision to move forward. So asking them to build PV/LSP from the start before completing the PoC first goes against basic program management.

And you can see from the ADA quote, the roadmap and funding for PV’s was there once a decision was taken after successful completion of PoC.


Agreed that PoC is a logical step in ab initio development for de-risking the program. But due to lot of inevitable reasons - 1991 economic troubles and 1998 sanctions drove the program too late to have let it move through usual process. A course correction was needed. It is my honest opinion. Not I am not saying IAF should have accepted junk from ADA/HAL. They could have ordered LCA in 2001 configuration with basic A2A or A2G capabilities. They could have written in contract that given this a/c is safe to fly with decent flight envelope and some basic armament capabilities (lets say about armed trainer version), we will buy say 10 pieces. I think this could have been done in 5-6 years (by 2006-07) and with 3 years of MFG gestation, we could have serial production starting by 2009-10. Call it MK0 version, to signify its just a stepping stone. Do you think it was not possible to do so?? The 2005 ASR update along with other needed upgrades could have been integrated in later version MK1 which would have started in 2006-07 when MK0 would had been frozen. In my opinion, IAF should have gone an extra mile to extend its hand (and I have in previous post explained why I think so). As our own baby LCA deserved special treatment. Not in large numbers but a small batch as a CBM was possible in my opinion.

tsarkar wrote:One of the recurring misconception is the lack of funding delaying the program. For programs of nation interest like Tejas or ATV, funding was never a constraint.


Saar, from what I remember to have read, ADA asked for 4000+Cr for first phase. It was given 2400+Cr which included already spent 560 Cr on Preliminary design phase. The funding was delayed till 1993 due to economic problems we had. Only after TD, funding has been more prompt for LCA. To me, the argument that funding delayed the program holds some credibility, even if it may not be deliberate.

tsarkar wrote:You’ve answered your own question here
>>> ADA had opened up the full envelop only after IOC.
How can one induct an aircraft whose envelope is unknown & hasn’t been opened up?


If they were told to make a flight worthy jet at 2001 config as I explained above, they could have opened most of that envelop much earlier. During this PV/LSP tamasha, too many things kept changing setting flight testing back. You can imagine every new addition would need flight tests. A lot of flight testing time would be eaten away by feature upgrades due to requested changes. If you remove these obstacles, full flight envelop for the TD config could have been tested much earlier. Again at the cost of repeating myself - we haven't seen any major change in aerodynamic configuration over time since 2001, have we?? Its logical to conclude that it would have been easier to test most of the flight envelop without much trouble quite early that what appears from the fact that Full fight envelop was opened after 2013 in actual case.

tsarkar wrote:The Su-27PU had been flying since late 80s. So basic flight envelope was known. MKI added TVC, canards & Israeli+French+Indian avionics. In case of Tejas, the flight envelope was not known and needed to be opened. Which is why forward calls could be taken on Su-30MKI. As the Tejas matures, we'll surely have more orders. There is no way we can meet the 42 squadron number without significant numbers of Tejas.

As I said flight envelop could have been tested much earlier, if the stake-holders had agreed on simple config such as basic A2A role or basic A2G role a/c.

tsarkar wrote:Let us look at Tejas development timelines vs orders placed.

http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/genesis.html

By 2005, the Tejas had proven itself in the testing phase and the first order for 20 Series Production aircrafts was placed. A follow on order for an additional 20 SP aircraft was placed in 2010.

So from ADA website itself, it is clear that orders were placed as early as possible.

Orders were placed but with the attitude that IAF is showing today - give us whatever you can as soon as possible and we will upgrade them as and when technologies come online.

From a recent statement bu MP in Parliament: http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=124006
- Internal jammer technology at that time was based on TWT amplifier which needed about 1000 ltr volume space for integration on aircraft. Hence it could not be accommodated at the time of development of LCA Tejas, Mk-I.
- The maintainability issues were raised by Indian Air Force (IAF) late in 2009, when design and drawings were already frozen for Mk-I. However, many of the safety critical maintenance issues are already addressed in Mk-I.

According to this, there was a design freeze in 2009. Why was this altered later?? Why the production of first batch was with this design?? I am not sure.

tsarkar wrote:Nilesh, I do not judge people or their views on whether they are for or against anything. However, I wish people be factual rather than emotional. I completely agree with the part your post that says critical barriers needed to be crossed. I also agree that media bashing of the program by a section of serving and retired IAF personnel could have been done without.

However, it’s a misconception that more orders could’ve expedited development and production. No, both these functions have their own gestation periods.

Saar, earlier orders (not more per se) would have opened up additional parallel path for the program. It could have expedited development process in a lot of ways, some of which I can think of right now are:
- Flight envelop for the aerodynamic config would have been opened up much earlier, making possible aero refinement in next tranche possible. MK-1 itself could have had the adjustments that now Mk2 has.
- Early start of production run would have let HAL learn all nitty gritty about setting up of assembly line much earlier, 2006-07 onwards rather than 2010-11 onwards. The production run would have been testing ground for MFG processes and more mature MFG could have been employed for MK1 production in large number. Now we will see such adjustments 2015 onwards.
- Supply chain management would be a major area where all potential suppliers brought in loop ready for next stage, logistics issues ironed out before full-fledged production starts and so on.
- IAF, after actually using the a/c in squadron service, would have been in much better position to give user feedback about Pilot-machine-interface, performance parameters, maintainability issues and what not. This kind of user feedback, based on the actual system usage is much more directed and helpful for designers.
- ADA would have got one more iteration to review design deficiencies and a chance to remove them.

Its just my honest opinion based on what I have learned about LCA in past 3+ years. I can tell you that I have seen almost every technical publication available on LCA on internet today. I have studied its aerodynamics in as much details I could have gathered. I have read carefully this entire thread as far back as it goes. Read a lot of, if not all, articles, opinions regarding the history of LCA. May be I cannot throw links and facts immediately in my posts, my opinions are result of 3 years religious follow up on LCA. I could right a report on my opinions backed by facts but I am little lazy for that. :mrgreen:

I think I have exhausted my quota of "would have been" "could have been" for now. Phew... :wink:

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 07 Oct 2015 14:01


Business with beef eating nations banned by Modi government

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 07 Oct 2015 14:38

NRao wrote:Is that right? I thought they always had the best they could place on the table: Russian + Israeli + French + Indian stuff.

I am sure you know integration is not a small effort. BTW, the Brahmos integration is an Indian solution - not a small feat (understatement).

Also, why would the IAF be in PD? Missing anything?

The MIC is starting to crawl (in the right direction). Need funds.

I don't get your point.

I know integration is not small effort. I said already that IAF seems to have decent experience with Avionics/weapon system etc. That includes integration efforts of putting together a cocktail of systems from different countries.

IAF should be in PD as a ultimate user giving feedback of the systems. That way designers know user point of view and users get realistic picture of what can be expected in reasonable time and resources. It will also help IAF in drawing procurement policies/ASR for future. Same way for designers while drawing project objectives. Anyways little more bhaichara between the forces and the R&D establishments is good only no??

Agreed on last point on MIC.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_26622 » 07 Oct 2015 14:51

Bunch of these are republishing sites so narrow down to Major publishing sites

Hindustan times > Quick Wiki shows CONgress alliance (Run by Shobhana Bhartia (born 1957) is the Chairperson and Editorial Director of the Hindustan Times Group, one of India's newspaper and media houses, which she inherited from her father. She has also recently taken charge as the Pro Chancellor of Birla Institute of Technology and Science, Pilani (founded by her grandfather) and is the current chairperson of Endeavor India. Closely associated with the Congress party, )

Interesting post on media and political party alignment here - https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-poli ... newspapers


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 07 Oct 2015 15:48

chaanakya wrote:
srai wrote:
Well ... take a look at page 5 on the LCA brochure from Dec 2013:

DRDO-ADA - LCA Tejas IOC2 Brochure Final - Dec 2013
quote...
Production Equipment Standard of Preparation & Drawing Applicability Lists (SOP/DAL) released
.../quote

That was at IOC-2.

if that is correct and contrary to what tsarkarji believes, SOP/DAL was ready as early as 2013. IAF could have put in order for 120 then itself. HAL would have been able to setup production line and suppliers well in time. I think you pointed out that leadtime is 36 months from order to first plane being delivered.

On the other hand I believe that order for 40 in IOC-1 and 2 configuration was already with HAL. What prevented HAL to go for full scale production then? They had no assurance from IAF of further orders, changing goalposts? 40 could have been over in 5 years . After that , what? idle investment in assembly line? that is waste of scarce finances.

Again, KaranM has posted pictures of HAL assembly line. What is that??


Minor Correction: 20 in IOC-2 and 20 in FOC. That was the order. Standardized production in those config can't begin before those certification are obtained. So for IOC-2, that is after Dec 2013. FOC is work in progress.


Already answered here.

srai wrote:^^^

That CAG report doesn't say anything about IOC-2 SOP/DAL. All it says is previous LCAs (LSPs) were built to different standards, which is a known fact. IOC-2 is being built to exact standards as reported here.

Dec 30, 2013
...
Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat.

"As a result of all these changes, a panel from one Tejas would not fit another. Now we will implement absolute standardisation, with identical components, assemblies and panels," explains Sridharan.

This is being done with laser scanners that ensure that a number of key points (called "locators") on each aircraft being built is exactly where it should be. By measuring with the laser, it is ensured that the locator is within 80 microns, i.e. about one-tenth of a millimetre, of where it should be. These are international standards, used by companies like Boeing.

It is evident from the focus of the laser trackers teams that it is painstaking work. This standardisation, and coordinating the flow of Tejas systems and sub-systems to the assembly line constitutes what Sridharan describes as the process of "stabilising" the Tejas line.

"Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.
...


Build time of LCA is 2 to 2.5 years. That would put it at Jun 2016, which is 2.5 years from Dec 2013 (IOC-2), when first lot delivery of 4 units can be expected. Production will scale up thereafter (and the process of subsystems should already be in the pipeline given long lead times required).

...
"Once the process is stabilised, we can transition to higher rates of production. My initial focus will be on production quality; then we will scale up production. HAL will meet the target of building 20 fighters by 2016-17," he says.

That was the pattern while building the Hawk. After building just two aircraft in the first year, seven were built in the second year. In the third year, HAL built 18 Hawks, and the remaining 14 Hawks were produced within months.
...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 07 Oct 2015 16:36

Since everyone is in the mood of plus minis, let me join the gang...+ 1 Tsarkarji for informative posts. The arguments on both sides have some merit. The idea that the lca should have been procured at 2001 levels is a bit ridiculous, and the comparison to the mki induction is also flawed. The IAF is following exactly the same stepwise pattern, only difference being that the aircraft are not being delivered. Now perhaps we can fault the af for not doing more for this program in the earlier phase, but to say that it treated the mki better is excessive.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 07 Oct 2015 17:05

I was of the hope that this will happen as both NM and MP are quite cost consious people and once MII is there in place as policy it is but logical LCA should be the way to go. All the useless press reports on LCA they all credit NM for this "bad" decision and I am very surprised IAF boss is not overtly on board even after that. IA already stopped the plan for imported rifle and had there been a fresh demand for T90 imports that also would have been denied.

Alas we may soon lose the tag of largest defense importer of the world tag.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Denis » 07 Oct 2015 17:22



Why does the Goverenment not send a subtle message to the english MSM by with-holding the release of all advertisements of PSUs and goverenment bodies to these shitworthy publications.?

Let all vernacular press and english outlets that have not used this gutter language to continue getting all those full page advertisments on various Govt /PSU intiatives. Let these MSM goons realize that there is a steep cost to be paid by them for their unwanton acts.

And do it silently without saying a single word.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby manjgu » 07 Oct 2015 17:26

i congratulate modi ji for the decision..we may be crawling now but we will have to learn to walk, run, sprint. else we will always be a banana republic.. we will have to develop our products even if its not top notch and then refine them...

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ashvin » 07 Oct 2015 17:32

^^
I saw this too, when I pulled up some articles from the Indian media. Bunch of shameless people! Their's (dork media) is a profession that knows no bounds when comes to lies and fabrication.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby krisna » 07 Oct 2015 17:33

don't post frequently here due to reduced knowledge regarding the subject.

But overall happy seeing the LCA project being taken to its logical conclusions of donning IAf colours in time.

my DP in teetar profile is LCA plane take off lifted from here only. :mrgreen:
proud of it due to made in India only.


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby uddu » 07 Oct 2015 17:55

Yagnasri wrote:Alas we may soon lose the tag of largest defense importer of the world tag.

:rotfl: Can't imagine being called an exporter from being the largest importer. :((

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 07 Oct 2015 18:19

tsarkar ji, significantly, imho, IAF breaks on FOC for meeting specifications on two major counts

- most importantly AoA increased to 28* and its safety concerns [flame out and air intake design changes].
- engine change at 8.5 T deviating from intended design - affecting MTOW and turn rates.
..there may be others, but let us keep this for args.

Given the changes required to fix these significant defects, it simply not possible to deliver IAF by the scheduled dates. These changes will push LCA Mk1 acceptance to Mk2 schedules. IOW, can't do this!

So, what do we do? Reduce the OPS capability needs and change legs for the shoe we have till such time Mk2 or a much capable platform is built. By doing so, we charter on using the aircraft rather making it another HF24. I know it is hard on IAF to accept this from ops angle, but we need graduation of existing LCA with IAF as a user.

The more they use an under powered and reduced capable a/c, the more pressure gets applied to team DRDO and HAL to come out quick for Mk2.

Bottom line, IAF must start using them in a reduced capability ops mode.

HF24 fate was delivered to Kaveri. We have to also focus on Kaveri to get back into production line.

srin
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srin » 07 Oct 2015 18:47

chaanakya wrote:
srikven wrote:http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/pm-modi-pushes-obsolete-made-in-india-plane-on-reluctant-military-1148132.html


reuters lifafabaazi
Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defence Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.

Why didn't the IAF shut it down ten years ago if it is obsolete ? Or did it become obsolete overnight ?

pragnya
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby pragnya » 07 Oct 2015 18:55

a good "STRATEGIC" decision by MOD(I) which will have a great lon term effect, a morale booster for the much ridiculed "scientific community" who dared to do something for the nation unlike us armchair generals. the message is clear to all. no more fancy imports 'unless' required that too subject to money available. even the design/prod agencies must have been told to pull up their socks and deliver with realistic projections. the fact that MP is in fact sticking/working on his 'assessment' in terms of speeding up, clearing on priority, creating a no import list is indeed revealing. finally we have a pragmatic, strategically oriented national govt. 8)

shiv
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 07 Oct 2015 19:04


There was a recent article in which it was pointed out that there is an import lobby working within the government and within the Air Force itself. It is this lobby that has cooperated to make this "news" appear in multiple outlets.

<POOF>
Last edited by hnair on 07 Oct 2015 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: shiv, dont engage in that line of debate

Surya
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 07 Oct 2015 19:29

that Matheswaran charactr makes me puke

more than anybody else he should know and all the more obnoxious his misinformation

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 07 Oct 2015 19:39

i guess some serving officers are using the shoulders of retired ones to take shots?

such people need to be identified and discharged dishourably imo. calls for a IB investigation who is orchestrating this campaign.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Anujan » 07 Oct 2015 19:50

Suggested headlines:
Narendra Modi Government Pushes Hindutva Plane (called "Tejas")
Modi Government intolerant of free mixing of foreign cultures (in IAF fleet)
Modi Government reneges on India's promise and firm commitment (to buy planes)
India makes a "U" turn, turns isolationist and Xenophobic (and refuses entry to foreign planes)
Miffed foreign powers, especially China, US and France may sell arms to Pakistan due to Modi government misstep


I am just sitting here, hoping more such pushing "inferior arms on reluctant military" happens. Especially vis-a-vis Arjun.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Oct 2015 19:53

Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defence Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.



He is plain dead wrong. LCA is a replacement to Mig-21 genre of aircraft which are also short legged.
No one is saying LCA is a Rafale replacement.

He is misusing his position as an aerospace expert to spin nonsense.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 07 Oct 2015 19:56

So many co-ordinated articles could not have appeared without unofficial off the record briefing. I wonder if it had the blessing of Air Chief as his body language was not enthusiastic when he talked of 6 sq of LCA and he referred to 6 sq of MMRCA as loved relative who may not survive.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Anujan » 07 Oct 2015 20:00

Most of the articles are sourced from Reuters, all of them can be traced back to it. You just have to plant one in Reuters or AFP to get coverage first in all tier 2 newspapers and then to trigger "exclusive investigation" reports from tier 1 newspapers and channels. Everyone lives a good controversy, it is good for viewership

Without proof dont accuse IAF chief of playing games through the media. IAF has proper channels to bring up their grievances to the MoD. He is justified in having concerns about the quality and timely delivery of the product. It is as though I forced you to buy a local made phone instead of your Samsung Galaxy S6 or iPhone, you will complain "I depend on my phone for work, it is a safety issue for me and my family, not sure if local maal can meet foreign quality and support, in the past local phone would break, stop working every other day, most parts are imported anyway" etc etc. That is for a phone. Think of the pressures on someone who has to send people into wars and win.

Think about it: We need a healthy "balance of power" between suppliers and the customers so that each part is kept honest and does not take things for granted. Remember in old days, Ambassador cars would roll out of the assembly line, with speedometers missing. Aam Abduls were forced to take delivery, because there was no other car. This is what happens when suppliers get the upper hand. We all know about the import disaster and different-person-different-rule that happens when customer dominates.

The people with butthurt are the ones who have a lot to lose if imports go down. It is not hard to guess who they are.

Also note the concern some Gora sahib has for the health and operational preparedness of IAF (and goes off to Reuters to write about it). Maybe if the Goras are so concerned about India's security, they should stop exporting Planes and missiles to Pakistan?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SanjayC » 07 Oct 2015 20:08

ramana wrote:He is plain dead wrong. LCA is a replacement to Mig-21 genre of aircraft which are also short legged.
No one is saying LCA is a Rafale replacement.
He is misusing his position as an aerospace expert to spin nonsense.


Only Indians can blabber such nonsense about indigenous defence products in foreign publications. His entire criticism of LCA is false and bogus, and even he would know in his mind that he is just farting around. Shows a lack of nationalism and patriotism. Surprising coming from an ex-military guy. These are the types which Western arms manufacturers appoint as agents.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby pragnya » 07 Oct 2015 20:29

ramana wrote:
Retired Air Marshal M. Matheswaran, a former deputy chief of the Integrated Defence Staff, said the LCA was obsolete.

"It is a very short-range aircraft which has no relevance in today's war fighting scenarios. If you are trying to justify this as a replacement for follow-on Rafales, you are comparing apples with oranges."

He said the plane was at best a technology demonstrator on which Indian engineers could build the next series of aircraft, not something the air force could win a war with.



He is plain dead wrong. LCA is a replacement to Mig-21 genre of aircraft which are also short legged.
No one is saying LCA is a Rafale replacement.

He is misusing his position as an aerospace expert to spin nonsense.


ramana,

it was planned as a mig 21 replacement but has far outgrown that testified by the TPs themselves as equivqlent to M2K upgraded!!

as for Sir Matheswaran, he is not wrong 'but' deliberate.

as Dileep put it nicely somewhere - those who fly it swear by it, those who never flew diss her.

chaanakya
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby chaanakya » 07 Oct 2015 20:36

The enitre Article is based on Ideas of AM(Retd) Matheswaran and some MoD sources ( we know how notorious mods ( Mod sources) can be). He appears to be one of the lead architect of MMRCA deal. Obviously it must be quite painful to see the entire deal , his life's achievement, junked with one press conference by DM. He was in line for selection as HAL chief and luckily he could not make it. You have to give it to Team Modi to be spot on. He would have proved to be a hindrance.

A quick search on Matheswaran in BRF led to 138 entries.And he comes out as Anti LCA guy all along.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6964&p=1835542&hilit=Matheswaran#p1835542

AM Matheswaran is known for his great liking for the medium-weight fighters. He was the chief architect for the MMRCA requirement specification, because Su-30s were deemed to be too heavy and thus too expensive to maintain as the entire fleet.


http://www.stratpost.com/light-combat-a ... rrection-i

Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retired) goes back in history to examine the reasons why the Light Combat Aircraft project has failed to meet expectations.

The solution is to re-strategise the LCA’s slot in the IAF’s operational force structure, while keeping the need to continue, consolidate and stabilise India’s fighter aircraft industry.

This will call for a realistic assessment of the LCA’s operational role.

More importantly, the need to develop the next version as the first main frontline indigenous fighter aircraft should be realised quickly. A broader strategy will need to be put in place for this to happen.

The LCA MK II should be seen as the vehicle that will address the requirements of larger operational radius, better performance and greater indigenisation.

It could either be a single-engine aircraft with a redesigned airframe and a larger fuel capacity on the lines of the Gripen NG or it could be a twin-engine version of the LCA with just incremental technology.



viewtopic.php?p=1843700#p1843700

He says that LCAs lack in climb rate, turn rate and top speed and has intake issues at supersonic speeds. He says that it does not yet have AESA and he says that India is dependent on imports for "pre-pregs" needed for composites. He also takes a pot shot at those who are critical of him or the IAF because they know nothing about fighter flying - thereby eliminating all criticism as invalid. He then partially laments that the LCA may be going the way of the HF 24 just after pointing out that the IAF rejected it.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby hnair » 07 Oct 2015 21:03

folks, easy on references


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