LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Oct 2015 17:42

Jan 11, 2015 ... nice EW suite integration already under way.

suryag wrote:yawn!!! this is an old piece of news

Tejas Equipped with New Generation Electronic Warfare Suite

An advanced electronic warfare (EW) suite developed by the DRDO was successfully tested onboard the country’s Light Combat Aircraft Tejas-PV1 at the weekend.

“After obtaining due flight clearances and certification, the first flight sortie of LCA PV1 with the EW equipment operational took place today. The equipment was noted to be detecting radar signals operating in and around the flight path,” a Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) release said here.

In addition to the Radar warner, the EW suite, tested in Bengaluru, was also equipped with a jammer, which gives to the pilot an additional capability to nullify the effect of detected radar threat by an appropriate mode of jamming. Existing EW systems fitted on various combat aircraft were basic equipment — Radar Warner Receiver to provide warning to the aircraft pilot in case of detection of a radar threat.

The advanced EW suite was developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a DRDO laboratory specialising in avionics and electronic warfare systems for combat aircraft, the release added.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 08 Oct 2015 19:32

http://tarmak007.blogspot.de/2015/10/te ... t.html?m=1

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Oct 2015 20:00

Good answer!! But yet more should be done about openly talking about the merits of the platform.

A top official in Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) said on Wednesday that ‘only time will prove the worth’ of the home-grown fighter – the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas.

He dismissed all anti-Tejas rant saying the worth of the fighter will be known only after it is produced in large numbers. “Let the machine do all the talking,” he said.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.de/2015/10/te ... t.html?m=1

Jalo saalo jalo...all the pakis and import lovers may burn but let them gnash their teeth.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Oct 2015 20:20

“Tejas will be participating in Iron Fist in 2016 and will demonstrate the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile launching and stick bombing capabilities with tandem bomb carrier in swing role. We can certainly envisage Tejas to don the IAF colours during the IAF Day celebrations in 2016 with at least five aircraft. Only inducted platforms perform at AF Day celebrations,” the official said.
He dismissed all anti-Tejas rant saying the worth of the fighter will be known only after it is produced in large numbers. “Let the machine do all the talking,” he said.
More weapon trials in the next six months: To a query on the weapon trials, the official said that Tejas had completed hot weather trials on the trainer version during July this year.
“All the system of LCA-AF trainer performed satisfactory during the trials at ambient of 48 degrees Celsius. Significant preparatory work for the balance weapon work has been carried out in this quarter and actual weapon deployment is planned over the next six months,” he added.
When asked about the challenges being faced by the team now, the official cited the integrations of air-to-air refueling probe, supersonic drop tank and BVR missile integration with radar as examples.
“The relevant flight tests for completion of the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), tops our agenda now. Towards this the design and development work has already been completed. The aircraft integration and flight testing is on schedule. The BVR is likely to get released with MMR (Multi-Mode Radar) integrated with quartz radome by March 2016,” he said.
Squadron formation preparations in full swing: Around 60 per cent work towards the formation of the Tejas Squadron is completed at Bengaluru.
“The O-Level training to IAF technicians has been completed. The air crew training on mission simulator is likely to be completed by November this year. About 70 per cent of GSE/GHE (Ground Support Equipment/Ground Handling Equipment) procurement is also completed,” he added.
The technical publications and flight manuals have already been delivered to the IAF. Initially, the IAF has planned to operate the aircraft from Bangalore and then shift to the permanent Tejas Squadron base in Sulur (Tamil Nadu).

The IAF too has taken up a series of modernization work at Sulur to welcome the new entrant into its fold.

As reported by OneIndia during Aero India 2015, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will have to deliver a total of 20 Tejas series production aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) format and another 20 in the FOC mode.

The Tejas Mk-2s would be powered by the GE 414 engine. In addition to a higher thrust engine, the Mk-2 would have the benefits of better performance, improved flight and mission systems and greater maintainability.

Upgraded Tejas Mk1A will be more user-friendly: The official confirmed that the LCA MK1A would be an improved product with better maintainability to make it more user-friendly.
“We are planning MK1As with enhanced survivability embedded with an integrated EW suite, which would give an improved sensor performance over Mk1s. This is planned for the larger number of aircraft intended by IAF,” the official, who chose not to be named, said.

The official claimed that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has given ‘a new direction’ to the project through an accelerated approach during his frequent interactions. He said

HAL is geared up to roll out at least four series production aircraft by March 2016.
The first of Series Production (SP-1) aircraft has already been handed over to IAF and another 19 more are expected from HAL to complete the MK1 production schedules in the IOC format.

...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Oct 2015 20:21

Remember how much of a hue and cry some of the media turds made out of the manuals? Now they are available, zero reports apart from this one. Just shows how the media attempts to create a bad image so that it sticks in teh public mind.

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 08 Oct 2015 20:24

From the above article what does This Line Mean 'with tandem bomb carrier in swing role'. does this mean two bombs can be carried instead of the centerline Tank.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Oct 2015 21:49

IMHO, Modi and Parrikar have hit a huge blow with Tejas induction en masse, something the IAF was unwilling to even see, with its focus firmly on imported arms of the most expensive kind, following a policy the GOI had made them used to in years past.

Pakistan and China both consider homegrown weapons and their induction as a significant prestige point which they use to signal to their local populace and the world, of their national strength or an edge versus India.

By constantly running down the Tejas and Arjun in public and constantly mocking and disparaging the scientific establishment, some sections of the forces + the ever ready corrupt media and wheeler dealers made India a weak state in public perception, running down all the positive impact of indigenous inductions elsewhere.

In 1999, such constant breast beating and wailing was seen by the ISI as a sign of weakness and invited war. No lessons were learnt clearly and all studies and committees had their chai-biscoot and little came out of it.

By having our own FBW 4+ Gen fighter in service, in exercises and in public display, its a huge sign to the rest of the world that India has made a gigantic step forward, even if the likes of Matheswaran attempt to downplay it or push for imports.

An IAF lineup with significant numbers of Tejas in it is a game changer in many ways because it also exposes a large number of IAF squadrons to a local product, as versus a couple which can be parked far away in one AFB and conveniently ignored.

IAF planners too cannot afford to let the combat power of 6 squadrons be idle.

From the production side too, this lends economies of scale both for ADA and its local partners plus HAL. Spares can be ordered in more volume, production can be in higher amounts. In turn industry will be better placed for a Mk2 and even the AMCA.

This one decision has the potential to completely upend the lucrative import meets all needs policy that was being implemented till date.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 09 Oct 2015 00:01

Karan M wrote:<SNIP>
HAL is geared up to roll out at least four series production aircraft by March 2016.
The first of Series Production (SP-1) aircraft has already been handed over to IAF and another 19 more are expected from HAL to complete the MK1 production schedules in the IOC format.
<SNIP>
...

OT here. Reminds of prototype flight details posted on this very thread. Fantastic news.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Oct 2015 00:15

Dated article, very much relevant to the numbers being discussed...

IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi February 11, 2014 Last Updated at 00:46 IST

Today, that figure quietly swelled to well above 300, with the government indicating the IAF would have at least 14 Tejas squadrons.

Each IAF combat squadron has 21 fighter aircraft; 14 squadrons add to 294 Tejas fighters. The 21 comprise 16 frontline, single-seat fighters, two twin-seat trainers and three reserve aircraft to make up losses in a war.

In a written statement tabled in the Lok Sabha on Monday, Antony’s deputy, Jitendra Singh, stated, “The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA.”

So far, the IAF has committed to inducting only six Tejas squadrons — two squadrons of the current Tejas Mark I, and four squadrons of the improved Tejas Mark II. In addition, the navy plans to buy 40-50 Tejas for its future aircraft carriers.

Reflect what current Chief is saying on Sqd. nos. Instead of 4 Sqd of Mk2, it is now Mk1A.

Reg. cancellation of Mk2 mentioned in ToI article, that was borne out of IAF shooting-itself-in-the-foot arguments in demanding more MMRCA type aircrafts.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Oct 2015 00:21

By constantly running down the Tejas and Arjun in public and constantly mocking and disparaging the scientific establishment, some sections of the forces + the ever ready corrupt media and wheeler dealers made India a weak state in public perception, running down all the positive impact of indigenous inductions elsewhere.

Anyone & everyone who are in the decision making loop are approached & contacted - 10 yr of Scam India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2015 01:37

get few women pilots on LCA that will make it a big bang and divert the firang gangs away!

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Oct 2015 01:54

Karan M wrote:IMHO, Modi and Parrikar have hit a huge blow with Tejas induction en masse, something the IAF was unwilling to even see, with its focus firmly on imported arms of the most expensive kind, following a policy the GOI had made them used to in years past.

Pakistan and China both consider homegrown weapons and their induction as a significant prestige point which they use to signal to their local populace and the world, of their national strength or an edge versus India.

By constantly running down the Tejas and Arjun in public and constantly mocking and disparaging the scientific establishment, some sections of the forces + the ever ready corrupt media and wheeler dealers made India a weak state in public perception, running down all the positive impact of indigenous inductions elsewhere.

In 1999, such constant breast beating and wailing was seen by the ISI as a sign of weakness and invited war. No lessons were learnt clearly and all studies and committees had their chai-biscoot and little came out of it.

By having our own FBW 4+ Gen fighter in service, in exercises and in public display, its a huge sign to the rest of the world that India has made a gigantic step forward, even if the likes of Matheswaran attempt to downplay it or push for imports.

An IAF lineup with significant numbers of Tejas in it is a game changer in many ways because it also exposes a large number of IAF squadrons to a local product, as versus a couple which can be parked far away in one AFB and conveniently ignored.

IAF planners too cannot afford to let the combat power of 6 squadrons be idle.

From the production side too, this lends economies of scale both for ADA and its local partners plus HAL. Spares can be ordered in more volume, production can be in higher amounts. In turn industry will be better placed for a Mk2 and even the AMCA.

This one decision has the potential to completely upend the lucrative import meets all needs policy that was being implemented till date.

This is the beginning of an end for wholesale imported fighter aircraft.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Oct 2015 02:28

srai

+1 saar. Well Said
Jai Hind Brites
Jai Hind !!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Oct 2015 03:15

Karan M wrote:Tejas in Sqn colours to fly during next IAF Day sky party: DRDO

“Tejas will be participating in Iron Fist in 2016 and will demonstrate the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile launching and stick bombing capabilities with tandem bomb carrier in swing role. We can certainly envisage Tejas to don the IAF colours during the IAF Day celebrations in 2016 with at least five aircraft. Only inducted platforms perform at AF Day celebrations,” the official said.

He dismissed all anti-Tejas rant saying the worth of the fighter will be known only after it is produced in large numbers. “Let the machine do all the talking,” he said.
...

Squadron formation preparations in full swing: Around 60 per cent work towards the formation of the Tejas Squadron is completed at Bengaluru.

“The O-Level training to IAF technicians has been completed. The air crew training on mission simulator is likely to be completed by November this year. About 70 per cent of GSE/GHE (Ground Support Equipment/Ground Handling Equipment) procurement is also completed,” he added.

The technical publications and flight manuals have already been delivered to the IAF. Initially, the IAF has planned to operate the aircraft from Bangalore and then shift to the permanent Tejas Squadron base in Sulur (Tamil Nadu).

The IAF too has taken up a series of modernization work at Sulur to welcome the new entrant into its fold.

As reported by OneIndia during Aero India 2015, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will have to deliver a total of 20 Tejas series production aircraft in the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) format and another 20 in the FOC mode.

...

HAL is geared up to roll out at least four series production aircraft by March 2016.

The first of Series Production (SP-1) aircraft has already been handed over to IAF and another 19 more are expected from HAL to complete the MK1 production schedules in the IOC format.

...

Positive and informative news like the details of what has/is being done regarding squadron formation and delivery are being totally ignored by the DDM journos. Only a handful of reporters actually do their work by going to the facilities and talking to the people involved to report on the details. All others are "hot-air" quoting some unnamed sources with biased viewpoints. These DDMs will write a whole book, no pun intended, on just one selective quote from some unknown official

As the many anti-LCA articles that got published following the IAF press conference shows, it is easy to see that a huge percentage of so-called Indian defense journos/media outlets are in the pocket of vested interests. Maybe "putting the food on the table for me and my family and send my kids to private school" is a bigger priority for them. They have sold their souls.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Oct 2015 04:48

By having our own FBW 4+ Gen fighter in service, in exercises and in public display, its a huge sign to the rest of the world that India has made a gigantic step forward, even if the likes of Matheswaran attempt to downplay it or push for imports.

Guys. Forget the Kakkoose the Matheswaran and the other types shovel around. If I can put my connecting the dots hat on, with this public decision on the Mk1A and stuff, the following are fixed, without which no responsible govt, least of all a dyed in the the wool, no nonsense person like Parikkar with his background would sign on the dotted line. Remember, these things come out in open, along with the underlying research like what we saw for the Mk1 canopy bulge only AFTER they are confident of working.

1. The aero fixes with the bulge behind the canopy would have been tried out in wind tunnels and even maybe one of the PVs/LSPs and they are pretty darned sure that it works and works well

2. Mark my words, the AESA radar is working pretty well. The DRDO Awacs project with the balance beam array seems to be quite success. From there to a aircraft radar is probably just a few easy downsizing and leveraging a lot of existing stuff from the current stuff. This will not be available for love or money from anywhere ,and you at best will get a black box that will do its stuff and the IAF will not be even able to open the box to fix anything or tweak anything.

3. RWR/SPJ - I do think the MK1A will have an internal fit . The bulge on the hump with the rearranging of internal stuff will give the space for it. The MK1 will make do with an external jammer slung under a wing pod .

4. The Python ER will see service with the IAF and from what I read, it seems to be great missile in the form factor of the existing Pythons and quite competitve with any active radar guided missile out there today

5. Yes, and the weight gains from undercarriage are already seen in the test production runs of the optimised ones and they will know the exact savings. With that and taking out ballast and filling in the AESA and RWR&J (and I do hope they throw out the bulky oxygen tanks and put in an OBOGS, with IFR the limited oxygen tanks make no sense) they will know the weight of the final product to a great level of accuracy. And with the thrust and drag and weight well know,you know the final performance to a great level.

Yes and the IFR and quartz nose etc are delivered as well. So all in all, we are good to go.

Whoever pulled the MK1A version out of the hat did magic (I hope he/she is rewarded with a medal) and set the cat among the pigeons (okay Natashas) and no wonder the Natashas were squirming when the MK1A story broke and started whining. Now there will be no other plane in the world that will meet these specs in this weight class. Most definitely NOT the Gripen A/B/C/D and if the Gripen cannot, nothing else will.

No wonder the Matheswarans of the world have now moved to we need a Gripen NG class plane chorus! Perfect, move the goal posts once you find that the Kakkoose you are shoveling has no market. But what are you going to do when the MK2 is out in another 5 years (the Navy IS going to get the Mk2, whatever happens) and kicks the Gripen NG in the Musharraf again ? Move to oh, we actually need a stealth plane and import the F35 ?

The Natashas can keep shoveling whatever they want. But this much is certain. India is not going to import this class of tactical aircraft from anyone EVER again. And with the PAK_FA flailing and the renewed commitment from a chastened govt to the AMCA, it puts the nails on that coffin forever. This is a permanent loss of market for those shovelers. We have moved past this import nonsense and all that, muddled along, persevered, but done it.

Add to this, the market in short to medium to long range tactical air defense missiles, the total loss of ship hull markets (no with the private guys also in, we will NEVER import any hull from abroad anymore) and major electronic systems and a whole range of stuff, from tube artillery to everything. The likes of Kalyanis, Tata SED, L&T will not allow that import and make to a blue print kind of nonsense stand , especially when there are far better manufacturing, design , production and product engineering skills available here with them than many of the places where the imports happen.

The foreign Natashas are endangered , and will get kicked out to become extras like the token foreigners in the background in a Bollywood dance number, rather than being the heroines from now. And Priyanka Chopra will be the heroine and yeah she is a Miss World!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2015 05:45

Modi gov pays attention to what we say here. /jmt

btw, if matheswaran ji prays here for anything, he may want to just jump to the conclusions what chinese say
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news/cont ... 5&cid=1101

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 09 Oct 2015 06:55

self-deleted

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Oct 2015 06:58

A coordinated Media Attack on LCA Tejas program

As soon as Air Chief confirmed to the reporters that IAF indeed will place orders for more than 120 Tejas MK-1 aircrafts in its current configurations, One particular International news agency's from its Indian bureau in Delhi fired the first salvo against Countries Tejas Program by ridiculing Air-forces decisions to order what they reported was a flawed aircraft and also Questioned logic behind not going for larger orders of French Rafale fighter jet .

Attack from International News Agencies on India's LCA-Tejas Program seems to have ruffled some feathers in International Arms lobby group which seem to be worried about new-found love by IAF for Indigenous Aircraft types and its future plans which involves development and supporting indigenous types like Tejas MK-2 and AMCA to meet future needs of the air force.

While it was somewhat expected from International News Agency but what should have surprised many in India is that Our National media to was in sync with each other in attacking Airforces decisions to support Tejas Program, while many media houses in India redistributed the same article in their publications other tried to give their own spin by involving inputs of anonymous Airforce officials or of long time Anti-LCA Critics .

Some media house also went ahead and took potshots at Prime Minister Modi and Defence Minister Parrikar for forcing Air force to induct Tejas in large numbers thereby compromising National Security only to fulfill Made in India Campaign initiated by Modi for India's defence sector.

Paid News for long has been rampant in Indian Media Publications and in past too there has been repeated instance of series of attacks on DRDO and various Indigenous projects. Defense Experts for long have blamed deadly combo of Import friendly Service Arms of Indian Military along with Hostile aggressive Paid Media who have longed worked with International Arms Lobby to create a favorable conditions for their business in India.

Many of our Current and reputed Defense Editors/Reporters of many Indian Publications house have been accused of Lifafa Journalism (Paid Reports) to prepare favorable reports for International Arms manufacturers who in disguise of Study Tours have provided all expense paid tours to this reporters to their Manufacturing facilities abroad .

India for long which has a dubious distinction of being the largest arms importer in the World has been trying to change its image by supporting its indigenous defense manufacturing sector for which PM Modi had initiated ' Make in India' Campain which have been appreciated by Many International Defense sector Companies who are supporting it only to keep their long term business with India intact but also are worried about rise of Indian Defence sector which has long terms plans to increase indigenous route to meet demands of Indian Military establishments, We can only expect much more attacks and active lobbying by Media in near future as and when Defence sector in India grows.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 09 Oct 2015 06:58

Kanson wrote:
By constantly running down the Tejas and Arjun in public and constantly mocking and disparaging the scientific establishment, some sections of the forces + the ever ready corrupt media and wheeler dealers made India a weak state in public perception, running down all the positive impact of indigenous inductions elsewhere.
Anyone & everyone who are in the decision making loop are approached & contacted - 10 yr of Scam India.

Looks like Gen. VK Singh's stand is vindicated against Tejinder

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Oct 2015 07:06

BRF should make a wall of shame to put all traitors that fall out of the woodwork in attacking the LCA. Easy to see how the Arjun was killed off! Hats off to NaMo!! I hope they stop pouring good money down the drain on tin cans and invest in the Arjun Mk2 as a compromise.

Some posters on BRF may also be a part of the anti Arjun / anti LCA bandwagon. Call a spade a spade!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Oct 2015 08:06

double post/

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 09 Oct 2015 08:08

vina wrote:.......

The Natashas can keep shoveling whatever they want. But this much is certain. India is not going to import this class of tactical aircraft from anyone EVER again. ....

agree. an authoritative PM, a meticulous DM and a wily NSA (somehow, i smell lot of Doval in the decision) have ensured their decision is going to have a far reaching strategic effect for ever for the country IMO.

now move on to Arjun and AMCA.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 09 Oct 2015 08:30

http://www.niticentral.com/2015/10/08/r ... 34833.html

India is the world’s largest importer of military equipment. If Indian armed forces start inducting indigenous weapons, foreign defence manufacturers that have been circling the Indian military market stand to lose billions of dollars worth of business every year.

They might be trying their best to create a perception among Indians that Tejas is not a good fighter and it might put the lives of Indian Air Force pilots at risk. On Wednesday, Reuters published a half-cooked story titled “Modi pushes ‘obsolete’ made-in-India plane on reluctant military”. Within minutes, Indian media went into overdrive publishing the same story with different titles (they probably have content-sharing agreements with Reuters). Take a look at their headlines:

Pilots at the National Flight test Centre who have flown Tejas for years have said on several occasions that Tejas is a fine fighter. They spoke about the fighter after flying it at 2,000km/hour, at a ceiling of 15,000 meters, carrying 3,500 Kg of mission payload. The fighter can detect enemy aircraft beyond visual range, fire Israeli Python and Derby air-to-air missiles. It also allows pilots to switch to a ground strike mode mid-flight.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Oct 2015 09:05

Anujan wrote:http://www.niticentral.com/2015/10/08/r ... 34833.html
...

Even LCA Mk.1 can't be called 'obsolete'. Obsolete against what? Against MiG-21 and MiG-27 that it will replace?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 09 Oct 2015 09:12

Well people are coming out of the woodwork to post that Rafale has 6 times the range etc.

Most people dont think. Like the map that Hakeem posted. A 300km combat radius is enough to make mincemeat of Al-Bakistan. Why do we want "can fly nonstop around the world 2 times over" types airplane? That too if we have to pay through the nose to buy and maintain?

Being the world's largest arms importer is gravy train for everyone. Surely some feathers are going to be ruffled when some coaches in that train are derailed.

Look at the slick videos made by massa. Talking about EW, Look at all the hue and cry about the Growler. Any number of slick natgeo and discovery channel documentaries have been made about it. So many articles written and slick videos made. Turns out half the time it doesnt work and they are busy designing a replacement for service in 2022!

BTW anyone remember the hue and cry when we stretched the Leander class? Londonistan issued dire warnings about how they cannot give any guarantees and how lives of sailors are at risk etc etc.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Oct 2015 09:54

From latest news reports it seems that LCA MK-1 and MK-1A are same except some features for better maintainability. It is all upto our DM/RM now, whether he can push 180 LCA down the reluctant throat of IAF.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Oct 2015 10:01

Is it possible for Tejas to fly during RD2016. I think some of the Test planes are up to the task. That should increase the sale of Burnol.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Oct 2015 10:13

Anujan wrote:
BTW anyone remember the hue and cry when we stretched the Leander class? Londonistan issued dire warnings about how they cannot give any guarantees and how lives of sailors are at risk etc etc.

never knew that !! .. guess all Indians need a BRF account in addition to aadhar card

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Oct 2015 10:25

I feel once First Sqdrns with FOC gets inducted ( or may be first plane) then MOD can announce that they have taken a policy decision to equip all existing Mgg21/Bis sqdrns with tejas as and when planes are made available. each sqdrns would get 20 planes in same configurations with next one being an improved variant. HAL should also be asked to set up production line for at 40 planes /PA as early as possible. Payment for supplies being made should go towards setting up additional lines. HAL should be encouraged to outsource components to private suppliers.
Unless we commit to induct 20 to 25 sqdrns that we had of MIG economy of scale would not be there. If we see F-16, firs variants were ordered in excess of 400 once FOC or whatever they call it was given.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Oct 2015 10:29

Gyan wrote:From latest news reports it seems that LCA MK-1 and MK-1A are same except some features for better maintainability. It is all upto our DM/RM now, whether he can push 180 LCA down the reluctant throat of IAF.

I think Chief Raha is fully on board else he would not have committed to even 120. Now we need to find someone as Chief who would be committed to Make in India programme rather than go by seniority etc. We know that there are many in forces who would not like to see such programs materialise, even in senior echelon and likely to be in line for decision making posts.

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tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Oct 2015 12:27

nileshjr wrote:They could have ordered LCA in 2001 configuration with basic A2A or A2G capabilities. They could have written in contract that given this a/c is safe to fly with decent flight envelope and some basic armament capabilities (lets say about armed trainer version), we will buy say 10 pieces. I think this could have been done in 5-6 years (by 2006-07) and with 3 years of MFG gestation, we could have serial production starting by 2009-10. Call it MK0 version, to signify its just a stepping stone. Do you think it was not possible to do so?

No, I don’t think it was possible to do so.

There are two aspects to a new aircraft – fly & fight.

By Fly, it means an aircraft that is good to fly within its envelope. Its envelope should be well established so that operational pilots, whose job is to fly within the envelope, can fly it.

By Fight, it means weapons & sensors.

Now, if an aircraft just fulfills fly criteria, it can be inducted. Fight criteria can be fulfilled later. Like INS Brahmaputra inducted without Trishul or Barak 1 or INS Kolkata inducted without LRSAM.

Now refer to official Government of India statement here http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=102056

Wake penetration trials……were planned beyond IOC-1

Air Wake Turbulence is a flight safety issue.

To give a simple example, people who’ve watched the movie Topgun can recollect the aircraft in training flying into a wake & getting into an uncontrolled flat spin followed by an ejection sequence. More details on Wake Turbulence here http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... arten.html

I’m sure you would agree that Tejas’s performance for Wake Penetration needed to be tested before induction.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include…..all weather clearances were planned beyond IOC-1

Self explanatory.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include…..Safe flying up to High angle of Attack as mandated by the users.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include….The Flight control system evaluation has also been completed.

So before December 2013, the evaluation of FCS was not complete. This is an important Flight Safety Criteria for induction.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include …The Brake system has been improved significantly in terms of energy absorption capability during landing

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include …In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement.

This is a major flight safety requirement incase of an engine flameout.

The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.

This is a very key statement. It means before IOC-2, Tejas inflight health had to be monitored by ground team for any anomalies. It was only during IOC-2 testing that Tejas inflight health was certified fit for flying without the need for continuous monitoring via telemetry support

nileshjr wrote:They could have written in contract that given this a/c is safe to fly with decent flight envelope….Do you think it was not possible to do so?

So, to answer your question, No, Tejas was NOT safe to fly before IOC-2. It didn’t achieve engine relight, FCS testing and all the things listed above before IOC-2.

nileshjr wrote:During this PV/LSP tamasha, too many things kept changing setting flight testing back. You can imagine every new addition would need flight tests. A lot of flight testing time would be eaten away by feature upgrades due to requested changes.

Can you substantiate here that what flight related feature upgrades were requested by user? It is with this kind of statement that we depart from the realm of fact and enter into the realm of speculation.

As per CAG report Page 14 http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/our ... /Index.pdf

There were no revisions to the ASR by IAF, except in respect of weapon requirements, as discussed in Para 2.3.2.

Now, I’ve repeatedly asked Karan, Vina, Maitya and now I’ll ask you to substantiate and educate me as to what flight related changes were requested?

Engine relight is a basic safety flight feature not dependent on combat avionics or weapons carried.

Wake penetration is a basic flight safety feature not dependent on combat avionics or weapons carried.

All weather flight is a basic flight safety feature not dependent on combat avionics or weapons carried.

Tejas was tested for these features during IOC-2 because only by then the platform had matured. Because it had not matured enough before then, this was not tested earlier.

nileshjr wrote:As I said flight envelop could have been tested much earlier, if the stake-holders had agreed on simple config such as basic A2A role or basic A2G role a/c.

How much more basic can the Tejas A2A configuration gets beyond what it is now? It just carries R-73 at IOC. The R-73E configuration was agreed in 1997.

The reason flight envelope was not opened before even with this basic configuration was because the platform was still being developed, tested & improved, and not because of configuration.

A2G – again, only bombs. No missiles like Kh-59 requiring datalink. The Litening pod is useful because it give a FLIR capability. That dispenses with the need for an IRST.

Again, that doesn’t have any impact on engine relight, wake penetration, etc.

nileshjr wrote:
The maintainability issues were raised by Indian Air Force (IAF) late in 2009, when design and drawings were already frozen for Mk-I. However, many of the safety critical maintenance issues are already addressed in Mk-I.
According to this, there was a design freeze in 2009. Why was this altered later?? Why the production of first batch was with this design?? I am not sure.

The maintainability issues raised were around estate management & quicker turn around time that is being progressively addressed in Mk1 IOC-2 (Eg pressure refueling) & Mk1 FOC. However, there are no structural or configuration changes in Mk1. All possible structural & configuration changes are to be addressed in Mk2 and possibly Mk1A. .

nileshjr wrote:- Flight envelop for the aerodynamic config would have been opened up much earlier, making possible aero refinement in next tranche possible. MK-1 itself could have had the adjustments that now Mk2 has.

To even think of improvements, one requires to baseline and benchmark Mk1 performance. As explained in the PIB link, the time until December 2013 was spent in baselining and benchmarking basic Mk1 envelope.

HAL with ADA’s inputs was struggling to manufacture even PV’s & LSPs on time? How could more orders helped here?

nileshjr wrote:Early start of production run would have let HAL learn all nitty gritty about setting up of assembly line much earlier, 2006-07 onwards rather than 2010-11 onwards.

Sir, more than orders, standards & drawings required to be frozen. The initial set of SOP/DAL for IOC production standards started coming from 2010. Without SOP/DAL, on what basis does one manufacture?

To summarize, the basic Mk1 flight envelope was opened by IOC in December 2013. Flight safety issues like Wake Penetration, Engine Relight, FCS evaluation were tested and addressed during IOC-2 achieved in December 2013. Production SOP/DAL could be framed only after IOC. Even if orders were placed, they would’ve stayed in backlog unless flight safety tests were satisfactorily tested.

nileshjr wrote:lets say about armed trainer version

Sir, testing & certification of trainer version, leave aside arms, is running behind the main Tejas program. Which is why 20 IOC and 20 FOC production planes include no trainers.

Aircraft development is a time consuming process. Where the IAF has gone horribly wrong is by not suppressing the flippant comments made by a certain section of its officers in the Media.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 09 Oct 2015 13:11

deejay sir,

can the later LSP like 5,7,8 can be used for training purposes (at least basic stage if not advanced) so that by the time SP versions come, the pilots will have a headstart!! if not, what happens to these airframes? they are pretty new and flown sparingly.

any info how many GE 404IN20s are used and how many left? do they have spare engines for the SPs to be produced by march 2016? anyone?

Karan M, mk1A is supposed to be fitted with an ext jammer possibly the israeli one. can the tusker pod - which was supposedly being improved - be used in place of the israeli one?

TIA

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Oct 2015 13:27

Is there any problem of purchasing more 404s. I mean someone posted here the line got closed etc.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Oct 2015 13:42

chaanakya wrote:Is it possible for Tejas to fly during RD2016. I think some of the Test planes are up to the task. That should increase the sale of Burnol.

I guess single engine planes are not allowed due to safety concerns, but still a very good idea

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Oct 2015 14:02

How much more basic can the Tejas A2A configuration gets beyond what it is now? It just carries R-73 at IOC. The R-73E configuration was agreed in 1997.

Which is lot more than what the IAF got with the Mirage 2000, which came with just it's cannon and that got inducted against a fully capable F16 A/B with AiM9 and AIM7 and full ground attack capability.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Oct 2015 14:16

vina wrote:
How much more basic can the Tejas A2A configuration gets beyond what it is now? It just carries R-73 at IOC. The R-73E configuration was agreed in 1997.
Which is lot more than what the IAF got with the Mirage 2000, which came with just it's cannon and that got inducted against a fully capable F16 A/B with AiM9 and AIM7 and full ground attack capability.

The criticism from te other side is that Air forces were dealing with Dassault, General Dynamics in the case of Mirage 2000 and initial F-16s. IAF leadership seemingly didnt trust HAL/ADA/DRDO combine to deliver and hencce the insistence on proving every capability before induction.

@ Tsarkar ji,

While its understandable why IAF didnt place confirmed orders before IOC 1,2 were granted, I think there was scope for more than 20 LCAs in IOC-2 config, later to be upgraded to FOC version. Just like how IAF chief spoke recently about getting the LCAs now and upgrading the 4 items at a later date.

The IOC-2 config btw did take part in IAFs FPD and also Vayu Shakti.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Oct 2015 15:23

IIRC between 2009-2010, HAL was able to produce 4 LCAs but that rate has not been seen since. IAF Chief did not say that additional 120 LCA have been ordered but only said that they are being negotiated.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Oct 2015 15:38

vina wrote:
How much more basic can the Tejas A2A configuration gets beyond what it is now? It just carries R-73 at IOC. The R-73E configuration was agreed in 1997.
Which is lot more than what the IAF got with the Mirage 2000, which came with just it's cannon and that got inducted against a fully capable F16 A/B with AiM9 and AIM7 and full ground attack capability.

Mirage 2000 did come with Super 530D and Magic from the onset, although all export Mirages carried the watered down RDM radar instead of RDI used on French aircraft. Even the additional 10 Mirages ordered had RDM radar. Also, the engine was an older mark, that was upgraded to a newer mark. I personally remember seeing Mirage-2000 at Sonegaon AFS in 1987 with Super 530D, Magic and centerline drop tanks. The aircraft was inducted in 1985.

And IAF is inducting Tejas without the cannon, that will be qualified at FOC.

Lastly, Pakistani F-16 Block 15 never had AIM-7. The only F-16 Block 15 that had AIM-7 was ADF version flown by US Air National Guard. Their lack of BVR capability during Kargil was well know. Too bad our MiG-29 and Mirages did not fire their missiles after getting a lock on.

Anyways, weaponization is secondary. Like I said earlier, if the platform is flight safe, it can be inducted without weapons for familiarization & training. And Tejas completed FCS evaluation, engine relight, wake penetration & all weather clearance only at IOC-2.

nirav wrote:While its understandable why IAF didnt place confirmed orders before IOC 1,2 were granted, I think there was scope for more than 20 LCAs in IOC-2 config, later to be upgraded to FOC version. Just like how IAF chief spoke recently about getting the LCAs now and upgrading the 4 items at a later date.

Nirav, the IOC standard planes were ordered in 2005, 8 years before IOC. The FOC standard planes were ordered in 2010, 6 years before FOC. They could not be built earlier because specifications & drawings were not frozen because flight testing was not completed. The new order for 80 Mk1A is also not very different from FOC standards. It will have a jammer pod, Python, Derby and IFR. The last three should be part of FOC itself.

HAL has gained experience in trimming weight by working on the landing gear of NP-2 that is lighter than NP-1. Along with re-arranging the internals, Mk-1A is a low risk option as Mk2 is developed. I don't see Mk2 entering squadron service before 2025.

Also do note that once flight capabilities are proven, adding weapons/sensors do not take time.

I'm willing to wager there will be 200+ Tejas in IAF service. Like Akash. There are barely a handful of other fighters on sale, and manufacturers are loathe to transfer technology, making Tejas the only viable option for the IAF's 42 squadrons.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Oct 2015 16:09

tsarkar wrote:
nirav wrote:While its understandable why IAF didnt place confirmed orders before IOC 1,2 were granted, I think there was scope for more than 20 LCAs in IOC-2 config, later to be upgraded to FOC version. Just like how IAF chief spoke recently about getting the LCAs now and upgrading the 4 items at a later date.
Nirav, the IOC standard planes were ordered in 2005, 8 years before IOC. The FOC standard planes were ordered in 2010, 6 years before FOC. They could not be built earlier because specifications & drawings were not frozen because flight testing was not completed. The new order for 80 Mk1A is also not very different from FOC standards. It will have a jammer pod, Python, Derby and IFR. The last three should be part of FOC itself.

HAL has gained experience in trimming weight by working on the landing gear of NP-2 that is lighter than NP-1. Along with re-arranging the internals, Mk-1A is a low risk option as Mk2 is developed. I don't see Mk2 entering squadron service before 2025.

Also do note that once flight capabilities are proven, adding weapons/sensors do not take time.

I'm willing to wager there will be 200+ Tejas in IAF service. Like Akash. There are barely a handful of other fighters on sale, and manufacturers are loathe to transfer technology, making Tejas the only viable option for the IAF's 42 squadrons.

Pardon my timelines about IOC and FOC orders..

What I was trying to say is, considering IAFs depleting squadron situation and also that FOC was delayed, IAF always had time to order more squadrons of IOC-2 capability till FOC was achieved and then all brought to the same standard.

IAF Chief in his press conference stated that the order for LCA was always 6 squadrons, 1 IOC, 1 FOC and rest MK2.(414 engined)

LCA MK2 is practically a new aircraft.Cant say for sure if there will be no slippages in its timelines. And in the meantime there were Confirmed orders of just 40 of MK1 which drew criticism.

Now that the chief has announced that they will take the a/c as is and add capabilities as upgrades when they are available is a massive boost to the national effort.

With such massive IAF backing, the effort is bound to succeed spectacularly.