LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

[pushkar.bhat]

The patch on pilot's left chest pocket looks similar to this one:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--LG-38Zhbk4/T ... 004_16.jpg

Seems like NFTC.

Yes this seems to be the NFTC patch. Interestingly , not all all are F(P).

[pushkar.bhat]

Dassault and Reliance tie up for Rafale production doesn't look as bad in retrospect given the textiles background of Ambanis

Kidding right?

On a more serious note Reliance looks to NAL to make carbon fibre - Livemint is a dated news from 2008. They were it seems specifically asked to invest into capacities for india's strategic requirements. And yes a lot of folks from the "Govt" Labs joined them for this.

[member_28932]

I remember one indian airforce officer saying that LCA MK1 lacks the speed to escape from enemy attack once it is send on mission. If it does Mach 1.8, it should be considere good. What is your opinion?

My opinion? Words are cheap. No need to talk until it is flown by IAF

Here is something about the underpowered HF-24

It is said in that research paper that there shall be a 20% rise in trans sonic acceleration. Now if 800 KG weight is reduced than there shall be a rise of 15% in T/W ratio. These both to gather should push highest speed higher. It is said that it has a highest speed of Mach 1.6 at 15000 meter (If true) . I think it these both togather shall make LCA faster. How fast is a question and some knowledgeable like you can throw some light.

[mody]

Can anyone confirm whether LCA has the pressurized fuel filling feature like F1 cars?
There were reports some years ago that LCA will have this feature, enabling faster turn around times and higher number of sorties per day.

Would be a nice feature to have.

[Viv S]

Can anyone confirm whether LCA has the pressurized fuel filling feature like F1 cars?
There were reports some years ago that LCA will have this feature, enabling faster turn around times and higher number of sorties per day.

Would be a nice feature to have.

Walking around the Tejas assembly line, Sridharan explains that the sixteen Tejas prototypes HAL has built are each different from the other. As the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) incrementally refined and improved the fighter, each new prototype incorporated improvements and additions. The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat. - Link

[Dileep]

Did everyone forget the AutoLay software of ADA?

PIB Link

The claim was A380 uses it. We all celebrated it on these pages. There was also animations of carbon fiber winding on a preform of LCA forward fuselage in the early 2000s.

What they do right now is to just lay the composite cloth to create panels that simply replace the metal panels. For getting the best performance, you must wind the fiber strand and create co-cured skin and struts. That was the original plan.

[Karan M]

You forget weight reduction.

Can anybody Say that what shall be the increase in the speed if above changes are carries out particularly Drag reduction and weight reduction. I remember one indian airforce officer saying that LCA MK1 lacks the speed to escape from enemy attack once it is send on mission. If it does Mach 1.8, it should be considere good. What is your opinion?

Weight reduction will affect Cg and is also the hardest to achieve. The measures I proposed can positively impact performance even without going this path. There is around 300 kg of ballast in the nose. That will be replaced by the 200+ kg addition by the AESA. Some weight reduction is possible but I would not expect 100's of Kg.

Whatever you read about speed is mistaken IMO and its doubtful an IAF person would say this. Perhaps a journalists claim? A Mach 1.6 to Mach 1.8 difference will make no significant change versus a Mach 4 missile. What will make a huge difference for any aircraft is an EW suite.

[Thakur_B]

Can anyone confirm whether LCA has the pressurized fuel filling feature like F1 cars?
There were reports some years ago that LCA will have this feature, enabling faster turn around times and higher number of sorties per day.

Would be a nice feature to have.

Yes.

The most recent prototype has a pressure refuelling system that lets the Tejas be topped up Formula One style, in just 8 minutes and then flown back into combat.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 010_1.html

[vasu raya]

On a more serious note Reliance looks to NAL to make carbon fibre - Livemint is a dated news from 2008. They were it seems specifically asked to invest into capacities for india's strategic requirements. And yes a lot of folks from the "Govt" Labs joined them for this.

the article talks about 3 years lead time before Reliance picks up, so what is the current status with Reliance 7 years hence? while Kemrock seems to do its bit

[Austin]

Stop Complaining About The Tejas: It Is A Great Indian Achievement

[srai]

Stop Complaining About The Tejas: It Is A Great Indian Achievement

Well written by Mihir!

[vasu raya]

I am observing that import substitution requires both technology *and* markets to consume that technology. For example, in the video above (I changed it to indicate a 250mph rated carbon fiber wheel which weighs 6 Kg)., if there are enough consumers of 250 mph rated carbon fiber wheels in India - one can just make a separate line for LCA at not much of an additional cost.

if volume is the need, the market analysis should include outside India, though the availability of raw material is a concern, there are enough planes flying within India which can all optimize on such light weight wheels and not just LCA.

one can probably get to work on composite rivets first which are so many for even one plane

Since HAL is getting to make the MKI from raw material phase, they have enough know how to replace the metal parts with composite ones especially with AUTOLAY software, the initial tranche which were worn out and sold were good candidates for such refurbishment cum upgrade experiments.

Even the IL-76 air frames of the Phalcons whose use is being rationalized can be life extended

[NRao]

I am observing that import substitution requires both technology *and* markets to consume that technology.

While the "market" has a place, so is there a "cost" for importing an item that can be subject to policy strangulation in other areas. While I agree, in general, with your thinking, I think there needs to be an exception in cases of "national interest".

There are nations, to maintain certain fiscal standards, buy up crop and dump it into the sea. They find it cheaper to spend on excess crop than to let the price of that crop slide.

I would think, for India, the same applies to things like carbon fiber. Expensive as compared to importing? Certainly. But no one can manipulate Indian FP - which has a cost of its own. ??????????

[Mihir]

Thank you srai!

[vishvak]

From the link above, Swarajyamag's article by Mihir:

.. The LCA’s mission computers, electronic warfare systems, man machine interface, flight control systems, composite airframe technology—these have been developed in India and are all flying on multiple IAF aircraft today in the form of upgrades. The MiG-21 Bison, the MiG-27 Upgrade, the Jaguar Darin III—they all source several local subsystems and components developed by Indian entities. The Sukhoi Su-30MKI, which Indian aviation enthusiasts venerate more than any other fighter, owes much of its success to the DRDO-run Project Vetrivale, which was possible only because of the sweat and toil that went into the LCA programme.
..
To take just one example, some of the technologies developed in the course of the Tejas’ Kaveri engine programme are now used by Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) in the manufacture of gas turbine engines for power generation. If exploited properly, they shall go a long way towards limiting the expenditure of foreign exchange on imported weaponry that generates very little economic benefit. More importantly, they shall empower the nation to take (or threaten) military action while limiting the risks of coercive pressure from hostile countries that might use technology embargoes or the termination of military sales to restrict the supply of critical military equipment.
..
With a home-grown fighter, the IAF gets a weapon that it can tinker with in unlimited amounts without having to seek approval from vendors guided by their own narrow interests. It gets the freedom to not treat that weapon as a scarce resource that has to be rationed across the breadth of the national border and not worry about treating as a scarce resource. And with the technological know-how as well as an industrial ecosystem largely in place, the development of the next generation of fighter is bound to be a little smoother, a little less uncertain, and constrained by fewer technological hurdles than the LCA was.

Read it all.
Reminds of something similar, from In his last book Dr Kalam writes how challenges triggered innovation

He goes on to narrate that within hours of conducting the hypersonic test, the team had to abandon the plans owing to Germany ratifying the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).
..
Team started looking for answers within India With the long-term goal of creating human and technology infrastructure within India's boundaries, the team started looking for answers within. "We were confident of our progress so far on Agni. We knew the importance of having a long-range missile for the nation's strategic strength. We also knew India, and India alone, had to find a way out of this situation. Difficulty became a breeding ground for innovation," says the book.
..
The book also narrates how the data saved from Prithvi trials came handy for Agni as well. "Real flight data from the Prithvi missile proved to be a precious knowledge resource for Agni. We simulated the Prithvi flight path on the computer using the same algorithm, and obtained CFD results for it. We then compared these simulation results against the actual data for Prithvi. To our delight, the results matched-giving us confidence for the Agni CFD results," adds the book.
..

Such benefits must be kept in mind for indigenous efforts.

[SaiK]

Mihir, have you checked out some of these discussions at
http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.com/ ... art-i.html
comparing the turn rates of LCA and F16a/b at horiz plane?

[Karan M]

LCA and composites by Dr Harinarayan

http://fgks.in/images/pdf/conf/Harinarayana.pdf

Additional details from NAL
http://www.nal.res.in/pages/compositestructures.htm

So not just black metal.

[Karan M]

LCA C-C Brake
http://www.frpinstitute.org/pdf/Carbon- ... 20guru.pdf

[SaiK]

the day is not far in the nearest future, where countries will line up to buy LCA.. don't sell it at low cost of sale. triple the price, and lower the cost of production.

i'd take a safe bet that such seekers will begin forming line in about 5 years time flat.

[ArmenT]

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