LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2015 15:22

Tejas has got IOC2. Before FOC it has to demonstrate full radar capability (range) with BVR/CCM and IFR.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Jun 2015 15:40

H

Karan M wrote:The CAG report is for the first few batches of R77s. We don't know how the rest were, the Russians claimed the problems were resolved.. but... And what types the R-27s were, SARH or IR or both.
http://www.artem.ua/en/produktsiya/avia ... es-r-27er1

The missile did not perform to expectations, which is why R-27 was ordered.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 2.jpg.html

You'll find only R-27 in newer photos. Both types.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2015 16:05

Incredible. Looks like the Astra Mk1 needs to be ordered in numbers & the Derby-ER as well.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2015 17:03

Looks like the IAF may go Astra in bulk for the Su-30 MKI. Hope that happens! Derby ER report mentions its in integration only for the LCA, though Rafael would be hard pitching it for all aircraft.

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show- ... formance-0

A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/02 ... awing.html

Similarly, the Astra class of air-to-air missiles can easily be built by the private sector. So, we are looking for a production partner in the private sector.

But are the users happy with these DRDO products?

The air force is extremely happy with the Astra. After the missile is tested next month on a live target, it will go onto a fast track. Similarly, the army says that with the supply of DRDO's Akash and Akash-2 surface-to-air missile, they are dropping the planned import of a short-range surface-to-air-missile (SR-SAM). What remains to be done is to demonstrate to the services that these products can be built in large numbers, in good quality, and without delay. The production agencies must give them that confidence.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2015 17:24

..looks like the 1000 of so R77 we have are in mothballs and will silently be EOL'ed at end of shelf life without any serious use. another glorious chapter ends.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jun 2015 17:38

Imagine the ranting from Philip and our DDM if this had been an Indian missile..

On a serious note explains why Chander says Astra would be put on the fast track.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 23 Jun 2015 18:19

So the sea is more difficult than flying low over mountainous terrain or low over desert?

May be there is some element of truth in it. It may not be more difficult, but that of disorientation (sort of) while flying over the sea, which can be overcome with practice. For eg., I understand a Jaguar Pilot cannot fly a maritime Jaguar straightaway..but it doesn,mean Naval Pilots are superior or AF pilots are inferior. It is a question of familiarity.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 23 Jun 2015 18:49

The make in India - CNBC programme on TATA advance system shows that they have JV with Cobham for producing Air refueling PODS at their Hyderabad factory and Cobham is yet to supply IFR and nose cones for tejas. What an irony .!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Jun 2015 19:25

So advance propaganda by Tatas about their JV with Cobham. par for the course. Like Mil contractors in US who claim they did everything!!!!

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 23 Jun 2015 19:40

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 24 Jun 2015 05:13

For Jingos interested in learning the basics of Aircraft Performance, there is a new NPTEL course starting this July. Please check here. Enjoy the learning.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jun 2015 14:13

[youtube]watch?v=bimJCkxYJ40[/youtube]

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 26 Jun 2015 14:39

JE Menon wrote:Boys, in the newly released Annual Report by MOD there is a picture of an aircraft about to land on a carrier. There is an aircraft parked on the carrier that looks remarkably like the Naval LCA... Is my guess correct or my eyes deceiving me?

Looks like a M29K onlee, saar..

OT: Good to see night landing ops.. Looks like full fledged flight ops have commenced

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jun 2015 02:45

Hunt on to pick top brain to head India’s Tejas programme

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/hunt-on-p ... 90398.html

Priorities for new ADA Chief
* Tejas Final Operational Clearance (FOC)
* Tejas Mk-II project should take shape
* LCA Naval programme needs further push
* Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Jun 2015 03:38

I hope Cde Balaji gets the job and an extension. No disrespect intended to Mr Swaminathan, but at this stage, the program needs a firm hand at the wheel and a military background to emphasise trust and cooperation with the users, the AF and Navy.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 Jun 2015 17:00

Well ,if it involves extension then I doubt very much. NaMo is on strict No Extension Policy.

It seems he is eligible, then he should be getting it. his contribution in LCA Navy is exceptional.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Jun 2015 18:57

We need continuity and a military origin person as the leader. Don't have any more in the ADA AFAIK. NaMo should make an exception depending on the circumstances.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 28 Jun 2015 20:00

What you say is valid. I think he has two years left as per rules and indicated in newsitem. Hence exception is not needed. He would be considered most likely. But NaMo has made it a policy not to give extension and the only exception so far I know is Nripendra Mishraji.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Jun 2015 20:54

Cji, 2 years is not enough for LCA and LCA Mk2. Thats the problem. We need him at least till Mk2 FOC.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jun 2015 21:09

there is an unwritten compact in hierarchical organizations. You put in your time and you could become the top dog as Peter's principle states.

Dilbert principle breaks that and causes organizations to break down.

So CDR Balaji with 2 years to go should get the job for sake of ADA.

srin · Post by **srin** » 29 Jun 2015 12:40

http://www.oneindia.com/india/carpet-bo ... 91123.html

Top sources with the Ministry of Defence (MoD) confirmed to this Correspondent that the integration of Russian-made Close Combat Missile (CCM) R-73 has been completed.

The ground integration of the Israeli-made CMM Python-5 too has been completed ahead of the flight trials. The Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile Derby has also been integrated on to the aircraft. Tejas can carry two CCMs with a range of 15 km at the extreme end pods. These missiles can home on to the enemy aircraft based on their heat signature. The Derby (two missiles) is being integrated on the mid-board-pods of Tejas and they have a range varying between 80 and 100 km. The home-grown fighter carries the laser-guided bomb (LGB) Griffin, which has a range of 5-6 km. Tejas will also carry LGB Paveway, which according to sources, has already demonstrated its capabilities with an accuracy of 1 meter.

The laser-designator pod also has been integrated on to the aircraft. "Tejas can carry drop tanks with 1200-litre and 800-725-litre capacity. The R-73 has completed flight trials in Goa, Jaisalmer and Jamnagar over 10 times. The LGB has been tested for six times now," the official said. The BVR testes scheduled to be held in May has now been fixed for July at forward bases. "The CCMs and BVRs used on Tejas are capable of SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability). In a war scenario, the pilot can increase the kill probability by opting for firing both CCMs, or both BVRs together," the official added. The integration of Russian-made gun for Tejas Gsh-23 has been completed. The gun has been already ground tested at a facility in Nasik.

When asked whether Tejas would skip the December 2015 deadline for Final Operational Clearance (FOC), the top MoD official said: "There are still some passing clouds hanging around. But the teams from Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are confident of beating the deadline." However, another official told this Correspondent that the programme might skip the December deadline by maximum three months. "May be it will spill over to the last quarter of this FY. The FOC will be in by March 2016," he said.

To complete the FOC points, the air-to-air refueling probe from Cobham hasn't arrived yet. The nose cone quartz radome too is being awaited. There are already some rumours floating around in the corridors of HAL and ADA over the delay in accessing these pending foreign systems.

"Definitely there are concerns. But, we are hoping to get clarity by July. Hopefully, we should have access to all hardware within a month. We don't see any more technology challenges after the integration of these pending items," says the senior DRDO official.

Added some more points from report

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 29 Jun 2015 12:59

This confirms dual pulse Derby ER of 100 km range is being integrated.

Just increase the number of LCA mk1/1.5 order to 100nos to be delivered by 2022 @ peak 24nos/year.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2015 13:25

Tejas must be the most diversified weapons carrier of any fighter at FOC!! none i know qualified so many weapons before foc. typhoon was relying on tornado for buddy lasing over libya a decade after its final FOC.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 29 Jun 2015 13:38

Instead of the LCA, we should now call it the LMRCA.
The news about the delay in quartz radome is also highly concerning - i am guessing we cant really fire a BVR missile without that being integrated.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 29 Jun 2015 13:49

ITR+STR be damned ... What an amazing set of capabilities that the Tejas brings to the table!! mud mower(LGB + laser designator) + point defence + modern interface + carefree handling - it might be a pilot's delight. BTW am not much on the loss caused by radome but increasing the TX/RX power might help to tide over the situation, of course the signal processing on the RX still has to contend with signals at noise floor(which makes it difficult) but to test out the BVR they can be cued by way of a data link from a buddy Su. Does anyone know if we have an operational data link in tejas(between AWACS and also buddies) Also looks like the cannons have also been integrated although it is not fully clear from the article

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jun 2015 13:59

the current radome capability of 50-60km is still plenty enough to test BVR shots.
dont need special hacks for that.

a fighter is hard to spot 1km away in the clouds, let alone 50.

srin · Post by **srin** » 29 Jun 2015 14:08

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2015/06/ca ... -7-pm.html

Don't miss the exclusive web chat being arranged for Tarmak007 followers with Tejas boss and ADA programme Director P S Subramanyam today. Time 7 pm (IST). More details on https://www.facebook.com/Tarmak007

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 29 Jun 2015 14:12

I hope some from the BRF team will participate in the chat and ask some questions pertaining to the performance (ITR/STR), RWR and BVR tests (if he will answer those types of questions). I have to say the oneindia report is very heartening.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Jun 2015 16:14

Sanjay wrote:I hope some from the BRF team will participate in the chat and ask some questions pertaining to the performance (ITR/STR), RWR and BVR tests (if he will answer those types of questions). I have to say the oneindia report is very heartening.

if someone participates, pl ask -

1. Is there any plan to integrate dual rack launchers for weapon stations 1,2,3 and 4 or at least 1 and 2.

2. How does it compare to upgraded Mirage 2000 in terms of ITR/STR/Range?

3. LCA weight as per open info is 6560kg. we do know the efforts were on to reduce the weight progressively. how much weight will be shaved off at FOC standard SPs?

4. Any plan for IRST/CFT integration?

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Jun 2015 17:32

Singha wrote:Tejas must be the most diversified weapons carrier of any fighter at FOC!! none i know qualified so many weapons before foc. typhoon was relying on tornado for buddy lasing over libya a decade after its final FOC.

The IAF's definition of FOC is quite different from other nations that have experience with building their own aircrafts. For other nations, FOC has more to do with squadron induction and operational readiness (even with limited technical abilities like air-to-air only) whereas for the IAF it is fully developed aircraft that includes everything from fully featured radar, avionics, ECCM and diverse weapon integration at day 1. I guess the IAF doesn't plan to upgrade these planes for a long time. Other nations tend to do quite a few incremental upgrades to add more features and weapons plus they do one major MLU. They are willing to commit to early batches to support their industry. Their overall quantity purchase intent is made to be commercially viable and is sustained with tranche/block orders and production. Whereas the IAF is unmovable with its 40 Mk.1 order even though they need urgent replacement for much inferior MiG 21/27s. They would rather continue to wait for their Plan A -- Rafale and some LCA Mk.2.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Jun 2015 17:46

From what you post sir, it seems other nations have tendency to support their industry and we do not. May be as a user IAF had not experience in supporting Indian industry.

But at the same time this is almost what they have done in case of Su30mki.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 29 Jun 2015 17:58

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 7h7 hours ago

* Ground test of Russian Gsh-23 on Tejas completed at Nasik facility. http://bit.ly/1RKw3Ms Here is the proof!
* BVR missiles to be test fires from Tejas in July #TejasFOC http://bit.ly/1RKw3Ms
* #TejasFOC to spill over to Mar 2016 owing to delay in A-2-A refueliing probe, nose cone radar http://bit.ly/1RKw3Ms

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Jun 2015 18:06

Saar, do you expect LCA forum not to have a positive news shared here after 8 hours of news article being posted on web? Srin ji shared the same link already and excerpts about 7 hours ago.

pankajs wrote:✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 7h7 hours ago

* Ground test of Russian Gsh-23 on Tejas completed at Nasik facility. http://bit.ly/1RKw3Ms Here is the proof!
* BVR missiles to be test fires from Tejas in July #TejasFOC http://bit.ly/1RKw3Ms
* #TejasFOC to spill over to Mar 2016 owing to delay in A-2-A refueliing probe, nose cone radar http://bit.ly/1RKw3Ms

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Jun 2015 18:33

srai wrote:
Singha wrote:Tejas must be the most diversified weapons carrier of any fighter at FOC!! none i know qualified so many weapons before foc. typhoon was relying on tornado for buddy lasing over libya a decade after its final FOC.
The IAF's definition of FOC is quite different from other nations that have experience with building their own aircrafts. For other nations, FOC has more to do with squadron induction and operational readiness (even with limited technical abilities like air-to-air only) whereas for the IAF it is fully developed aircraft that includes everything from fully featured radar, avionics, ECCM and diverse weapon integration at day 1. I guess the IAF doesn't plan to upgrade these planes for a long time. Other nations tend to do quite a few incremental upgrades to add more features and weapons plus they do one major MLU. They are willing to commit to early batches to support their industry. Their overall quantity purchase intent is made to be commercially viable and is sustained with tranche/block orders and production. Whereas the IAF is unmovable with its 40 Mk.1 order even though they need urgent replacement for much inferior MiG 21/27s. They would rather continue to wait for their Plan A -- Rafale and some LCA Mk.2.

I don't know how the Russians do it but the US services want a fully functioning aircraft with the list of capabilities they had specified in the development cycle before they declare FOC. IOC is something that is interim i.e. a "can go to war" configuration but the weapons system will not go to war unless an emergency (as many aircraft have done from the drone fleet to the JSTARS and even F-15E). FOC is declared when the entire requirement as specified in the EMD/SDD document signed with the vendor is provided and the deploying capability is met. The deployment capability is usually met during the interim between IOC and FOC and it is usually the capability delivery that determines the FOC date.

Its as simple as - Here is a list of things we want developed, once you are 75% through the list we'll aim for IOC, FOC comes when 100% of that capability (unless capability is deferred for budgetary or technical reason) is delivered we declare FOC.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 29 Jun 2015 18:39

Update from chat -

Tarmak007 :

FOC is between Dec 2015 and March 2016. As of now SP-1 handed over. 19 more in IOC config.
SP1 was handed over to airforce in jan 2015. sp2 will be in the last quarter of this year. By the end of financial year two more SP aircrafts.
FOC is an ongoing process and never stopped. We should be able to get access to complete hardware within a month.
MK2 roll out before 2018

The Cobham Radome will increase the range by about 10-15%

AoA is 24-26 degrees. Tejas can pull 8G, Will be done in 3 months

LCA service ceiling is 15 km max speed 1.6 Mach

Ferry range is in excess of 1500 kms [ not mentioned with or w/o drop tanks]

The MK2 variant of DFCC is in the final stages of development with enhanced computational power and I/O capability

Rs 7,500 cores spent to develop 2 TDs, 5 prototypes and 7 LSPs and establish a production line. The most economical programme in the world so far for the above purpose.

Amit Verma Q. Uttam AESA performance & Integration with Tejas Mk1 or Tejas MK1.5
Tarmak007 : MK2

Vootla Chaitanya : Sir, what is the range of radar in tejas mk 1 and by how much will it be improved in mk 2?
Tarmak007 in mk1 approximately 80 - 100 kms. In MK2 it will be improved to 120 Kms.

Lokesh Meena Sir...... 300km range is a bit 'unrealistic' why such short range
Tarmak007 The range you are talking about is Radius of Action not ferry range. The RoA of LCA is acceptable.

Lokesh Meena Sir....why ADA opted for a delta aircraft why not a conventional design....and 62.5 and 50 degree combinations...what was special in those specific angles
Thanks
Tarmak007 It is for better supersonic performance with optimal wing area

AMCA config studies are completed. Engine req are finalised. Stealth tech is a challenge as also super-manevourability

The dry engine development of Kaveri is on.

Hemesh Ace Hi sir..you have had remarkable experience on LCA.As a youngster i request you to write a book on your journey with it.it will inspire youngsters to great extent
Tarmak007 I am in the process

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 29 Jun 2015 18:53

brar_w wrote:I don't know how the Russians do it but the US services want a fully functioning aircraft with the list of capabilities they had specified in the development cycle before they declare FOC. IOC is something that is interim i.e. a "can go to war" configuration but the weapons system will not go to war unless an emergency (as many aircraft have done from the drone fleet to the JSTARS and even F-15E). FOC is declared when the entire requirement as specified in the EMD/SDD document signed with the vendor is provided and the deploying capability is met. The deployment capability is usually met during the interim between IOC and FOC and it is usually the capability delivery that determines the FOC date.

Its as simple as - Here is a list of things we want developed, once you are 75% through the list we'll aim for IOC, FOC comes when 100% of that capability (unless capability is deferred for budgetary or technical reason) is delivered we declare FOC.

Even for US armed forces, those requirements are not written on stone and during interim reviews are altered to suit current needs.

And here we are not discussing if an equipment should reach FOC or not (of course it will), but is IAF reasonable enough to ask for fully featured equipment from day ZERO. Only reasons I see it's not happening with LCA are -

1> IAF have too many choices. Given a chance who would go for a three legged cheetha. If all this RIF tamasha is forbidden, they will line up to buy LCA in a week.
2> Arms lobby, lot of people will get hurt if this induction goes through.
3> Strategic imbalance, India will gain independence from arms lobbies hence giving it option to maneuver in political space. India can start using its products as leverage when discussing ties with other countries. China has started to do the same.

LCA problem is not just technical or Indian's are incompetent when it comes to product development. There's lot more to it.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 29 Jun 2015 19:05

Production rate : Aiming for 16 to 20 per year.

LCA service ceiling is 15 km max speed 1.6 Mach

FoC clearance will not come in the way of ramping up the production since the initial order is for IoC config.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jun 2015 19:21

sankum wrote:This confirms dual pulse Derby ER of 100 km range is being integrated.

Just increase the number of LCA mk1/1.5 order to 100nos to be delivered by 2022 @ peak 24nos/year.

sankum, The current radar with kevlar radome has half the range per Dr. Tamilmani. So how will they integrate the Derby ER? Cobham radome is still awaited.

I wish India doesn't come up its own acronyms for already existing ones. CCM what the hell is that?

BTW R-73 integration doesn't need the Cobham radome and was done many times.

Also ground firing of gun is nice but what is needed is airborne firing trials to ensure all is well.

Looks like above interview is farewell speech by Dr. P. Subramanyam.
Wish him well for bashing on and bringing the LCA project to this stage of penultimate to IOC2 despite many difficulties.
Congratulations and have the Rest of your life!!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jun 2015 19:25

narmad, Do you have full text of the chat? If so can you post a link and the full text using quote button?

Thanks, ramana

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 29 Jun 2015 19:35

ramana wrote:narmad, Do you have full text of the chat? If so can you post a link and the full text using quote button?

Thanks, ramana

Chat is still in progress, there are lot of irrelevant questions, [ is it better than F16, when will we export, why dont we have TVC engine ...]
Quite a few of the questions are not answered.