LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2015 20:13

Some stuff coming from the HAL guy who is in-charge of LCA and IJT assembly line and final testing.

- A policy decision is made at higher management level already to outsource all the MFG to private companies. HAL would like to be only lead integrator and keep competency in 3 areas mainly - Equipment, Testing and Design. In fact he emphasized that MFG is not forte of HAL and we want to do away with it as soon as possible. But it will take time for this transition.

- 80% metal parts for LCA are outsourced already. Its the composites where real void exists.

- For private suppliers supplying parts in tiny numbers doesn't make business case and thus they shy away. There are some other issues as well - sometimes some component made of some imported material is more costly itself than the machining cost that a supplier would incur. The material will be provided by HAL but if the supplier screws up he has to reimburse material cost to HAL. The supplier could lost entire profit margin to one small mistake resulting scrapping of one piece. This makes things worse for them. (To be fair with HAL, the material is very expensive and difficult to procure since it would be imported).

- Composite fabric we procure are made up of raw material from Japanese companies who monopolize the market. Once they refused to sell to India and we were left high and dry. So sourcing material such as composites/high grade alloys is troublesome.

- IJT has had some significant structural changes in wing due to spin issues. (We know already its up for spin testing, he confirmed that).

- HAL is going towards "Digital Manufacturing" with entire process fully digitized. He said the shift to more digitization started with full force since 7-8 years. Before that a lot of trouble would be there transferring design from designers and all.

- In no uncertain terms he showed his disdain regarding how the LCA designers have ignored "design for manufacture" principle. He said in India MFG guy has no power, designer is GOD. If you go to Europe MFG guy will have a last say. He actually showed picture of one component from LEVCON which was really ridiculous design to be frank. (It seems ADA worked with HAL design teams closely, but collectively ADA-HAL designers never worked with MFG guys. Manufacturability was not thought of properly during design. In fact I have heard similar POV from another HAL MFG engg who have seen Kaveri engine development closely - a major factor for failure of Kaveri was unrealistic design features and tolerances which were too cumbersome to manufacture. We clearly see a pattern here: Lack of understanding in designer community for manufacturing. During my Mech engg, we were thought this as first thing - there will be always rift among the mechanical engg and the production engg. Both need to work closely for a design to be successful. Guess people forget all basics after they get out of colleges. Clearly lack of real experience in designing complex aerospace system shows up in the designer community. But next iteration will be much better I am sure).

- He emphasized - LCA needs to be flown by IAF line pilots, that's the real deal. Then only we will see the real potential of LCA and problems/improvements/feedback will come up. He said if I had my way, I would have made sure at-least 50 LCA fly in IAF colors as soon as possible. (An opinion I have already expressed here).

- LCA has too many LRUs - 370 something. Typical a/c of this size should have only 200 odd. This causes big problem in maintainability. Work need to be done to reduce the number of LRUs by clubbing things together.

- Told 1-2 ancedotes how HAL had been fooled by Russians in past - "Everyone fools us because we don't know anything".

(From his talk, it seems HAL haven't really invested in MFG competancy. They have decent facilities but it was only on need basis. Goes well with how eager they are to outsource the MFG).

Couldn't ask much to him about LCA/IJT projects due to lack of time and inappropriateness of situation.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2015 20:30

nileshjr wrote:- Composite fabric we procure are made up of raw material from Japanese companies who monopolize the market. Once they refused to sell to India and we were left high and dry. So sourcing material such as composites/high grade alloys is troublesome.

I think it was Matheswaran who mentioned this? This is an real thrust area for "import substitution". Make in India would really be make this stuff in India.

Can anyone educate me on what this material is and how China manages if the Japanese hold a virtual monopoly?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19428
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2015 20:38

Kemrock is actually helping with the LCA Composites per memory
http://www.ipfonline.com/IPFCONTENT/art ... -plant.php

The Rs 250 crore facility will manufacture the material under technology transfer from the National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL), a constituent of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) that has developed this ultra-light material for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and other defence projects. For this effort, the NAL is proposed to get up to five per cent of the turnover of this facility as royalty for the next seven years. The company has invested nearly Rs 200 crore in setting up this facility. The carbon fibre manufacturing facility is fully integrated, which includes polymerisation, wet spinning, oxidisation and carbonisation and includes all utilities for effluent and waste management. This integration will ensure the right quality of precursor (special acrylic fibre) for aerospace grade carbon fibre, thereby serving the nation's requirements in those defence and aerospace sectors lead by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) and Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC).


Also see: http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/Overview.pdf

Question is whether Kemrock is dependent on Japan.
This seems to indicate that Kemrock is doing the import substitution.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 523515.ece


- LCA has too many LRUs - 370 something. Typical a/c of this size should have only 200 odd. This causes big problem in maintainability. Work need to be done to reduce the number of LRUs by clubbing things together.


LCA is basically a very complex aircraft and by combining LRUs you will also impact overall serviceability challenges - one subcomponent fails and the entire LRU will have to be yanked. While on the face of it, this simplifies maintenance, it will increase number of higher level LRUs one will have to hold.

On the plus side, we are doing LRU rationalization all the time. The avionics for instance have seen significant reduction and this trend will only continue.
Last edited by Karan M on 15 Oct 2015 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19428
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2015 20:44

- 80% metal parts for LCA are outsourced already. Its the composites where real void exists.


Here I think TASL was actually supposed to help.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/11/ ... ry-to.html
http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... &Itemid=51

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19428
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2015 20:48

Nilesh - anything about aero changes for Mk1A or will it be only LRU focused? Very interesting details.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2015 20:58

The whole purpose of LRUs is ease of serviceability - akin to USB devices - i.e they can be swapped (OK maybe not hot swapped like USB devices) rather than removing the engine to access avionics. Having said that I never imagined that "too many LRU's" would be an issue.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4523
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 15 Oct 2015 21:10

nileshjr wrote:Some stuff coming from the HAL guy who is in-charge of LCA and IJT assembly line and final testing.

...
- For private suppliers supplying parts in tiny numbers doesn't make business case and thus they shy away. There are some other issues as well - sometimes some component made of some imported material is more costly itself than the machining cost that a supplier would incur. The material will be provided by HAL but if the supplier screws up he has to reimburse material cost to HAL. The supplier could lost entire profit margin to one small mistake resulting scrapping of one piece. This makes things worse for them. (To be fair with HAL, the material is very expensive and difficult to procure since it would be imported).
...


That is what some of us have been advocating for. Without profitable numbers order from the armed forces, private manufactures are not going to get involved; the only option is to either import, or force public factory to build it at a loss and then blame them if anything goes wrong. No more 20 of this 40 of that type of minuscule orders with a wait-and-see attitude. Hopefully, the IA/IAF/IN will give a firm commitment for larger number of units for future projects in consultation with business entities to see what is the minimum viability for them.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4523
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 15 Oct 2015 21:16

shiv wrote:The whole purpose of LRUs is ease of serviceability - akin to USB devices - i.e they can be swapped (OK maybe not hot swapped like USB devices) rather than removing the engine to access avionics. Having said that I never imagined that "too many LRU's" would be an issue.


I think one of the problems in Mk.1 is that some of these LRUs are not easily accessible for maintenance crews.

pravula
BRFite
Posts: 234
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby pravula » 15 Oct 2015 21:19

shiv wrote:The whole purpose of LRUs is ease of serviceability - akin to USB devices - i.e they can be swapped (OK maybe not hot swapped like USB devices) rather than removing the engine to access avionics. Having said that I never imagined that "too many LRU's" would be an issue.


Too many LRUs means you are replacing individual components vs units (an aggregation of components). My guess is there is no hard rule, just depends on economic factors.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2015 22:26

shiv wrote:
I think it was Matheswaran who mentioned this? This is an real thrust area for "import substitution". Make in India would really be make this stuff in India.

Can anyone educate me on what this material is and how China manages if the Japanese hold a virtual monopoly?


What he said is, 2 Japani companies have monopoly on the raw material manufacturing - which is basically some king of carbon fibres which are used to make the composite fabric - which in turn is used to make composite parts by layering. They refused at some point of time to supply to the vendor (perhaps Kemrock, as Karan has mentioned in his post above) which make and supply composite fabric material to us, saying we can't give it to India. No idea what is the reason. He said the process of making the carbon raw material is highly toxic and carcinogenic (his words). I am sure west would have some other alternatives, but we don't. This "layering by hand" technique is already getting outdated.

Set up cost is high for composite part MFG. Autoclaves are quite costly to build, that too for meagre number of parts. But we have enough reason to have our own facilities for composite material of all sorts apart from immunity to sanctions, since its not only Aerospace, soon in future it will flood all the other sectors such as Automobile.

Karan M wrote:Kemrock is actually helping with the LCA Composites per memory
http://www.ipfonline.com/IPFCONTENT/art ... -plant.php

Question is whether Kemrock is dependent on Japan.


That's the case it seems. Thanks for the info. I was not aware of Kemrock.
Karan M wrote:LCA is basically a very complex aircraft and by combining LRUs you will also impact overall serviceability challenges - one subcomponent fails and the entire LRU will have to be yanked. While on the face of it, this simplifies maintenance, it will increase number of higher level LRUs one will have to hold.

On the plus side, we are doing LRU rationalization all the time. The avionics for instance have seen significant reduction and this trend will only continue.

I guess the large number of LRUs present accessibility issue. When too many LRUs are there, and one of them which is buried behind 2 or 3 LRUs is to be checked/removed, you anyway 1st have to remove those obstacles then only the faulty one is accessible. More time/efforts and complicates maintenance. You could club those LRUs in a bigger one. This would simplify maintenance, especially in emergency conditions. We can always have sub-LRUs inside the big ones.

Karan M wrote:Nilesh - anything about aero changes for Mk1A or will it be only LRU focused? Very interesting details.


Couldn't ask anything. His topic was all about mfg processes in HAL. He talked for entire time with ahrdly any time left for Q&A. And he left quickly afterwards.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4444
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 15 Oct 2015 22:36

The Airbus A350 and Boeing 787 are entirely composite frames. And large part of A380 and other aircrafts use composites. According to simple search online, looks like there are many companies producing aerospace grade carbon fibres

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2015 22:38

indranilroy wrote:I have nothing against Reliance. I like profit-making companies. They are supposed to do so, and REliance is a best example.

But, wake me up when Reliance wants to build Tejas where screwdrivergiri won't work. In fact, wake me up when they are ready to build anything (in the defense sector) which is not not hand-me-downs screwdrivergiri for foreign design houses. The reason Reliance wanted to make Rafales was easy profit (I don't blame them. I just hated the excuses Dassault put forth for them). HAL must have been trying to get as much technology as it could as possibly could. It is in its vested interest as a design house trying to catch up with the global state-of-art supplying primarily to a customer who demands products at global state-of-art. It was in Reliance's interest, that they did the screwdrivergiri and rake in the easy profit. It is obvious where French would have gone. But the excuse they gave (historical ability to absorb technology) still makes me :roll:

On the other hand, reports suggesting that a private second line is coming up/proposed/required are very welcome. There must be a strong wind blowing somewhere making so many reporters say the same thing. I am very happy to know that TASL is seriously looking forward to set up a parallel line or be a Tier I supplier. Probably L&T, Mahindra, and Taneja will also become Tier I suppliers.

These days all Tejas news is good news. Well done Parrikar!


In my experience and opinion, to excel in high-tech industry such as Aerospace, the company needs to constantly need to innovate, to do hardcore R&D in technology and be ahead on the technology curve. This needs a different kind of DNA which comes typically from the founders who have been passionate about the technology itself. They impart organisations on this path. The kind of "Baniya mentality" companies like Reliance have, they will never be able to be leaders in technology intensive fields. I see more potential from SMEs to be the technology power houses of future India than big corporate houses like Reliance. (apart from few exceptions like TATA and L&T due to their background in Engineering).

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54241
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 15 Oct 2015 23:03

nileshjr wrote:Some stuff coming from the HAL guy who is in-charge of LCA and IJT assembly line and final testing.

- A policy decision is made at higher management level already to outsource all the MFG to private companies. HAL would like to be only lead integrator and keep competency in 3 areas mainly - Equipment, Testing and Design. In fact he emphasized that MFG is not forte of HAL and we want to do away with it as soon as possible. But it will take time for this transition.

{This is going on everywhere in the world. A very long supply chain with lead integrators. What about Assembly operations?]

- 80% metal parts for LCA are outsourced already. Its the composites where real void exists.

{Same comment. Suppliers cant make composite parts due to process and procedures intensive operations.}

- For private suppliers supplying parts in tiny numbers doesn't make business case and thus they shy away. There are some other issues as well - sometimes some component made of some imported material is more costly itself than the machining cost that a supplier would incur. The material will be provided by HAL but if the supplier screws up he has to reimburse material cost to HAL. The supplier could lost entire profit margin to one small mistake resulting scrapping of one piece. This makes things worse for them. (To be fair with HAL, the material is very expensive and difficult to procure since it would be imported).

{Contracting structure should be put in place for government/contractor furnished materials. Supplier should not be penalized. And HAL should buy more taking supplier yields/scrap rate into account. Its common business practice in low volume high impact mfg. Yes could lead to wastage complaints from CAG!}[I/]

- Composite fabric we procure are made up of raw material from Japanese companies who monopolize the market. Once they refused to sell to India and we were left high and dry. So sourcing material such as composites/high grade alloys is troublesome.

[I]{True only two Japanese companies are tops in this area. And often threaten withholding the supply under peacenik motives. They are large suppliers not small rolls of fabric.}


- IJT has had some significant structural changes in wing due to spin issues. (We know already its up for spin testing, he confirmed that).

- HAL is going towards "Digital Manufacturing" with entire process fully digitized. He said the shift to more digitization started with full force since 7-8 years. Before that a lot of trouble would be there transferring design from designers and all.

{This is good news for it will reduce mfg/producibility related changes. Also reduces tolerance stack up issues. Since they plan to have a long supply chain will reduce costs to the supplies for molds etc.}

- In no uncertain terms he showed his disdain regarding how the LCA designers have ignored "design for manufacture" principle. He said in India MFG guy has no power, designer is GOD. If you go to Europe MFG guy will have a last say. He actually showed picture of one component from LEVCON which was really ridiculous design to be frank. (It seems ADA worked with HAL design teams closely, but collectively ADA-HAL designers never worked with MFG guys. Manufacturability was not thought of properly during design. In fact I have heard similar POV from another HAL MFG engg who have seen Kaveri engine development closely - a major factor for failure of Kaveri was unrealistic design features and tolerances which were too cumbersome to manufacture. We clearly see a pattern here: Lack of understanding in designer community for manufacturing. During my Mech engg, we were thought this as first thing - there will be always rift among the mechanical engg and the production engg. Both need to work closely for a design to be successful. Guess people forget all basics after they get out of colleges. Clearly lack of real experience in designing complex aerospace system shows up in the designer community. But next iteration will be much better I am sure).


{Its an important point that mfg should review the drawings prior to release. Its the standard everywhere. BTW since HAL was involved in the design process looks more like a self- indictment also.
The joke is "design guys says mfg can't make a paper bag and Mfg says design guys cant design a paper bag!"


- He emphasized - LCA needs to be flown by IAF line pilots, that's the real deal. Then only we will see the real potential of LCA and problems/improvements/feedback will come up. He said if I had my way, I would have made sure at-least 50 LCA fly in IAF colors as soon as possible. (An opinion I have already expressed here).

- LCA has too many LRUs - 370 something. Typical a/c of this size should have only 200 odd. This causes big problem in maintainability. Work need to be done to reduce the number of LRUs by clubbing things together.

{some rationalization for the boxes needs to be done to reduce parts count and also to ensure maintainability. If bad LRUs are behind good ones, the whole assembly has to be taken apart and perfectly good LRUs need to be retested as electrical connections are broken to remove the bad units. All adds to final sorties rate for IAF!!!!}

- Told 1-2 ancedotes how HAL had been fooled by Russians in past - "Everyone fools us because we don't know anything".

(From his talk, it seems HAL haven't really invested in MFG competancy. They have decent facilities but it was only on need basis. Goes well with how eager they are to outsource the MFG).


{Maybe they want to avoid CAG reports! But trend world wide is to make at suppliers and assemble/integrate, test and prime contractor.}

Couldn't ask much to him about LCA/IJT projects due to lack of time and inappropriateness of situation.



Thanks a lot for these inputs.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 16 Oct 2015 06:13

nileshjr wrote:
In my experience and opinion, to excel in high-tech industry such as Aerospace, the company needs to constantly need to innovate, to do hardcore R&D in technology and be ahead on the technology curve. This needs a different kind of DNA which comes typically from the founders who have been passionate about the technology itself. They impart organisations on this path. The kind of "Baniya mentality" companies like Reliance have, they will never be able to be leaders in technology intensive fields. I see more potential from SMEs to be the technology power houses of future India than big corporate houses like Reliance. (apart from few exceptions like TATA and L&T due to their background in Engineering).


Well at least BRF has moved forward from the days when people used to say "Hand the LCA project to Infosys or Wipro and it will be done in no time"

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 16 Oct 2015 09:25

shiv wrote:
nileshjr wrote:
In my experience and opinion, to excel in high-tech industry such as Aerospace, the company needs to constantly need to innovate, to do hardcore R&D in technology and be ahead on the technology curve. This needs a different kind of DNA which comes typically from the founders who have been passionate about the technology itself. They impart organisations on this path. The kind of "Baniya mentality" companies like Reliance have, they will never be able to be leaders in technology intensive fields. I see more potential from SMEs to be the technology power houses of future India than big corporate houses like Reliance. (apart from few exceptions like TATA and L&T due to their background in Engineering).


Well at least BRF has moved forward from the days when people used to say "Hand the LCA project to Infosys or Wipro and it will be done in no time"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 16 Oct 2015 10:53

Yaaaaawnnn.

Just as I predicted , now that the Tejas has got sizeable orders, the Natashas have gone to whining about 'indigenous' content. TOI(let) has a multimedia thing running on their site on 8 "facts" about "not so indigenous Tejas" . I had said that they would be doing exactly this.

These Natashas are very predictable, exactly as predictable as them wiggling their hips hoping to land a John. Shame.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9773
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 16 Oct 2015 11:07

But they do have john. In fact many Johns.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vina » 16 Oct 2015 13:00

Pah.. DRDO Bad. 30 years to add just one gear to an engine

Shame. Shame. Reliance would do it in 30 minutes.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2268
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 16 Oct 2015 17:42

^

In Pratt’s case, it required the cooperation of hundreds of engineers across the company, a $10 billion investment commitment from management, and, above all, the buy-in of aircraft makers and airlines, which had to be convinced that the engine would be both safe and durable.


That.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 16 Oct 2015 17:49

^^^ From above article
At times, the extent of the operation had to be protected from bean-counting Pratt executives, says Epstein. “Sometimes we spent a lot. In other years we hid him [McCune] behind the curtain and slipped him some sandwiches so management wouldn’t know what the investment was,” he jokes.


What happens if and when DRDO does this for one of their "Science project"?? :roll:

nirav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2020
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 00:22
Location: Mumbai

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby nirav » 16 Oct 2015 17:57

Manish_P wrote:^

In Pratt’s case, it required the cooperation of hundreds of engineers across the company, a $10 billion investment commitment from management, and, above all, the buy-in of aircraft makers and airlines, which had to be convinced that the engine would be both safe and durable.


That.


Sorry. Those aircraft makers and airlines were not covered by the Indian Constitution.

Our Constitution, under the Freedom of expression, gives us right to call it a "3 legged cheetah".
Last edited by nirav on 16 Oct 2015 18:16, edited 1 time in total.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 16 Oct 2015 18:12

ramana wrote:
nileshjr wrote:Some stuff coming from the HAL guy who is in-charge of LCA and IJT assembly line and final testing.

- A policy decision is made at higher management level already to outsource all the MFG to private companies. HAL would like to be only lead integrator and keep competency in 3 areas mainly - Equipment, Testing and Design. In fact he emphasized that MFG is not forte of HAL and we want to do away with it as soon as possible. But it will take time for this transition.

{This is going on everywhere in the world. A very long supply chain with lead integrators. What about Assembly operations?]



They seem to want to be doing only assembly on shop floor. Every single item manufactured by suppliers.

Our industry will have to mature through the issues of compatibility and standardization - getting millions of parts originating in different set-ups to fit perfectly with very stringent tolerances. The process of outsourcing will take time.

member_22539
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2022
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_22539 » 16 Oct 2015 18:12

nileshjr wrote:What happens if and when DRDO does this for one of their "Science project"?? :roll:


Like corporate heads are half as good as CAG at bean counting and sniffing such stuff out. CAG would have figured it out by counting the number of nuts unaccounted for.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7337
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby disha » 16 Oct 2015 22:50

nileshjr wrote:Some stuff coming from the HAL guy who is in-charge of LCA and IJT assembly line and final testing...


First of all thanks and second I am glad that we are seeing so many issues.

Of course there will be issues on how & when the issues will be solved., but if it was all smooth like made out by chinnis., then I will be very very concerned.

And this is jump starting other industries.

Now coming back to carbon fiber., it is very very very complex and torturous process. How torturous? Just check this video out (answers several other questions as well):


Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8135
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 16 Oct 2015 22:53

nirav wrote:Sorry. Those aircraft makers and airlines were not covered by the Indian Constitution.

Our Constitution, under the Freedom of expression, gives us right to call it a "3 legged cheetah".

Reminds, me of the original 747's engines from Pratt. Its first flight was made, because they could not wait any longer. The engines were nowhere close to ready. They surged so badly that they would disintegrate catastrophically, forget generating the desired thrust. Months away from first deliveries, Boeing had planes sitting out with concrete blocks in place of engines. A helpless Boeing had the chief test pilot take the chief of Pratt for a demo flight. While in flight, the pilot increased the thrust of one engine, it surged with a large boom. The boom was loud enough to scare the crap out of anybody, obviously rattled the entire plane. Then, he continued to increase the power on the second engine, a second boom followed. The pilot started increasing the thrust on the third engine. At this point, according to the co-pilot, the Pratt boss shouted, "stop it! stop it! I get it! I get it!". Pratt buckled up, found the fault and removed it. The flight test was completed and the first airplane provided to the first customer. The first flight (IIRC) was between New York and London. It did not take off! The passengers were brought back to the terminal, engine failure! Behind the scene, Boeing replaced the aircraft (decal-ed) over a new one and got the passengers into Heathrow, 6 hours late.

But all this is history. There is unlikely to be another passenger plane as iconic or revolutionary as the 747. And, isn't it a beautiful looking plane (the suggested plan (from PAN-AM boss) was to make it a narrow bodied double-decker, which IMHO looked like a hippo like the Airbus 380). It could have easily bankrupted Boeing (if you read the history of its development), but it actually made Boeing the icon it is today.

One has to go through the initial groaning pains to reach anywhere in this industry. There is probably no exception to the rule here, because quite literally, it is at the very edge of technology known to mankind.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16526
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 16 Oct 2015 23:11

Now coming back to carbon fiber., it is very very very complex and torturous process


Yet, why is it that India cannot make something like this? Like the engine, this too needs national attention?

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10442
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Vayutuvan » 16 Oct 2015 23:17

I hear there are plans being put in place. It will take time to bear fruit. Thousand mile journey etc.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4522
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 16 Oct 2015 23:30

disha wrote:
First of all thanks and second I am glad that we are seeing so many issues.

Of course there will be issues on how & when the issues will be solved., but if it was all smooth like made out by chinnis., then I will be very very concerned.

And this is jump starting other industries.

Now coming back to carbon fiber., it is very very very complex and torturous process. How torturous? Just check this video out (answers several other questions as well):


Seen this video and many more. In fact this hand laying technique is already becoming ancient. The main reason Boeing/Airbus could make B787 or A350 in so large % of composite material was because robotic laying technique was at hand by then. The newer thing still is 3D weaving (e.g. GE composite fan blades). I was amazed to see that the leaders in the woven composite technology came from textile industry who leveraged on their expertise in weaving machines. There are nice videos on various types of composite mfg methods..

We should work on these technologies as well, along with raw material et al.

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7337
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby disha » 16 Oct 2015 23:44

NRao wrote:
Now coming back to carbon fiber., it is very very very complex and torturous process


Yet, why is it that India cannot make something like this? Like the engine, this too needs national attention?


1. It is complex to make and need lot of investment.
2. It needs markets.
3. For the markets to be created., there must be a minimum set of buyers who are ready to pay for it.

Take the case of Tesla., the cars are a luxury items. But those initial set of buyers have jump started the electric car manufacturing. Where is Bajaj and Hero and others with "carbon composite made motorvehicles/autos"?

For example., take the case of carbon fibre cloth itself. Tell me what you can do with the carbon fiber cloth if it was commercially available in India? And who will buy your product?

I will tell you something., if we can make a carbon fiber based rickshaw, it will be both lightweight and strong and we can put a small li-poly battery which gets charged when rickshaw is going downhill (or by regenerative breaking by using titanium gears) and can assist as required. It will cost more than Tata-nano but will be more eco-friendly. Will there be buyers?

Check this video out below for an application of carbon fiber (as an example) :


Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19428
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2015 23:58

Kemrock is making carbon fiber so we have handled that process. Issue is of raw materials. Whether it be semiconductor industry or carbon fiber, the issue is that raw materials for both industries tend to be dominated by Japan based firms. And Japan is firmly under US ambit. Cartelization is hence always a concern. In the world today, only Russia/FSU can claim to have created a local fighter manufacturing base from end to end (mostly, bar COTS chips which even they use but still build up Elbrus etc and are probably dependent on foreign firms for raw materials for some items), everyone else is dependent on US and allies.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16526
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Oct 2015 00:02

disha,

My impression was this discussion came out of Japan controlling the product and therefore is likely to be an issue when it comes to the LCA. Impacting Indian policies, etc.

I agree with your args on the commercial side of the equation, but, there too India has the largest middle income group in the world. So, there certainly is potential. (In fact, even in the IT sector I wonder why the consulting companies do not jump start India. but, that is a diff thread.)

So, as I had mentioned in my previous post (got lost I guess), this carbon fiber needs to be elevated to the jet engine (actually tank too) status. Nation needs it. ?????

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7337
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby disha » 17 Oct 2015 00:08

nileshjr wrote:
Seen this video and many more. ...

We should work on these technologies as well, along with raw material et al.


In the first few minutes., it also talks about the raw materials sourced from Japan. And yes expertise in one area (textiles) is used in another area (manufacturing 3D parts)., and my intention is to show the challenges and the eco-system required to derive at a particular challenge.

That is why, a locally designed and manufactured jet fighter is considered pinnacle of a country's engineering and manufacturing acumen.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16526
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby NRao » 17 Oct 2015 00:09

Karan M wrote:Kemrock is making carbon fiber so we have handled that process. Issue is of raw materials. Whether it be semiconductor industry or carbon fiber, the issue is that raw materials for both industries tend to be dominated by Japan based firms. And Japan is firmly under US ambit. Cartelization is hence always a concern. In the world today, only Russia/FSU can claim to have created a local fighter manufacturing base from end to end (mostly, bar COTS chips which even they use but still build up Elbrus etc and are probably dependent on foreign firms for raw materials for some items), everyone else is dependent on US and allies.


Those dependencies are created - we all agree on that.

However, when it comes to national policy manipulation, a nation like India needs to correct the course - I would think. "Nation"?

Cost will be an issue, but in the case of India I would think, in the longer run, not as much.

My sense is that India has not seriously sat down during periods of peace (oh, yeah) and paid attention to such details - especially the previous gov, who probably went the other way around, what was good and around, they destroyed that.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19428
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 17 Oct 2015 00:13

NRao - yes, and I hope Modi and his advisors (VIF) correct this.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vasu raya » 17 Oct 2015 00:15

Dassault and Reliance tie up for Rafale production doesn't look as bad in retrospect given the textiles background of Ambanis

disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7337
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby disha » 17 Oct 2015 00:25

NRao wrote:disha,

My impression was this discussion came out of Japan controlling the product and therefore is likely to be an issue when it comes to the LCA. Impacting Indian policies, etc.

I agree with your args on the commercial side of the equation, but, there too India has the largest middle income group in the world. So, there certainly is potential. (In fact, even in the IT sector I wonder why the consulting companies do not jump start India. but, that is a diff thread.)

So, as I had mentioned in my previous post (got lost I guess), this carbon fiber needs to be elevated to the jet engine (actually tank too) status. Nation needs it. ?????


I am not arguing against your point. I am observing that import substitution requires both technology *and* markets to consume that technology. For example, in the video above (I changed it to indicate a 250mph rated carbon fiber wheel which weighs 6 Kg)., if there are enough consumers of 250 mph rated carbon fiber wheels in India - one can just make a separate line for LCA at not much of an additional cost. But since there are none., we just have to suck our thumbs while the rest of DDM go around saying HAL does not have any mfg capabilities.

Currently LCA is moving from a few hand made fighters to a production line manufacturing and this is bringing out the gaps in the Indian manufacturing industry in general. And the speed of LCA manufacturing and its further evolution will be dictated by the ability of the Indian industry to absorb and generate solutions., and for the designers and integrators to absorb back the solution.

For example, can HAL/ADA change the wheels of the LCA from aluminium casting to carbon fiber and shave off 50% of the weight? Assuming the carbon fiber wheel is available today in showroom in B'glore?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54241
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2015 01:44

NRao wrote:
Now coming back to carbon fiber., it is very very very complex and torturous process


Yet, why is it that India cannot make something like this? Like the engine, this too needs national attention?



Union Carbide was getting ready to ship a new mfg plant for carbon fiber in 1985 when Bhopal happened. that ended early start.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54241
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2015 01:45

vasu raya wrote:Dassault and Reliance tie up for Rafale production doesn't look as bad in retrospect given the textiles background of Ambanis


Kidding right?

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vasu raya » 17 Oct 2015 02:21

it was a long shot, Dupont, US seems to be their consultant for mills setup and it has now added Kevlar and aerospace grade carbon fiber to its product list, the fiber is used for some parts in the Airbus program

Anyways, TASL is willing to do the composite wings

member_28932
BRFite
Posts: 107
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_28932 » 17 Oct 2015 12:50

Karan M wrote:https://books.google.co.in/books?id=_5vA_5XK33sC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=General+Electric+F404-GE-F2J3&source=bl&ots=oPVpR7A2w5&sig=wC4keHauZKvRgEZ4dRr5KuKhbc8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBGoVChMI4Mv-ifu_yAIVBAuOCh07Mw0Y#v=onepage&q=General%20Electric%20F404-GE-F2J3&f=false

The Ge404IN20 on the LCA SP/Mk1A stated as being upto 89Kn. A fair bit up from the "thrust class" of 84 Kn mentioned by GE:
http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... Family.pdf

The latest reports indicate upto 3 more years available for Mk1A. Other reports note the LCA Navy may be leveraged.

Makes me think the following changes may be part of it. At least I hope so!!
- Levcons (CEMILAC reports investigation for better STR)
- Fuselage plug (wave drag reduction)
- Optimized pylons (drag reduction)
- More fuel possible (if fuselage plus is used)
- New LRUs (DFCC, FC etc)
- AESA radar + Mk2 avionics fit

Might turn out to be a rocket.


You forget weight reduction.

Can anybody Say that what shall be the increase in the speed if above changes are carries out particularly Drag reduction and weight reduction. I remember one indian airforce officer saying that LCA MK1 lacks the speed to escape from enemy attack once it is send on mission. If it does Mach 1.8, it should be considere good. What is your opinion?


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests