Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 22 Apr 2015 15:55

Interview with Navy Chief Admiral Robin Dhowan ( via SJ tweet )

Priority is to ensure we are combat-ready: Navy chief

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Re: Indian Navy : News and Discussion ( 22nd April )

Postby John » 22 Apr 2015 16:54

At 7 million these must be the most expensive subsonic asm in the world. Being bulk item its high time we started our own product. China has some ten domestic models already


IN paid even more unfortunately for exocet missiles for scorpene.

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Re: Indian Navy : News and Discussion ( 22nd April )

Postby Singha » 22 Apr 2015 17:19

people were complaining of brahmos cost at $10 mil. well atleast some of it gets paid to domestic workers, part suppliers and such.

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Re: Indian Navy : News and Discussion ( 22nd April )

Postby John » 22 Apr 2015 17:46

Not sure how much navy is paying for it but highly unlikely its 10 million that will make it half the cost of kolkata to arm each destroyer. You are talking about 35 missiles per vessel including spares and test rounds. We know army paid around 2-3 million.

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Re: Indian Navy : News and Discussion ( 22nd April )

Postby Singha » 22 Apr 2015 18:06

thats even more worrisome if brahmos were cheaper. we need a torpedo tube launch version of brahmos yesterday.

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Re: Indian Navy : News and Discussion ( 22nd April )

Postby Aditya G » 22 Apr 2015 20:41

Singha wrote:people were complaining of brahmos cost at $10 mil. well atleast some of it gets paid to domestic workers, part suppliers and such.


The problem is due to lack of standardisation within and across each of the services.

We have multiple cruise missiles of broadly the same class in active or soon to join service

Russia: Kh-35
France: Exocet
USA: Harpoon
Israel: Crystal Maze
UK: Sea Eagle (now likely retired)

All of these have been acquired in piece meal. Since Styx Brahmos is the only one to be acquired in numbers and retained over a longish period of time.

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Re: Indian Navy : News and Discussion ( 22nd April )

Postby Kersi D » 22 Apr 2015 21:42

Aditya G wrote:
Singha wrote:people were complaining of brahmos cost at $10 mil. well atleast some of it gets paid to domestic workers, part suppliers and such.


The problem is due to lack of standardisation within and across each of the services.

We have multiple cruise missiles of broadly the same class in active or soon to join service

Russia: Kh-35
France: Exocet
USA: Harpoon
Israel: Crystal Maze
UK: Sea Eagle (now likely retired)

All of these have been acquired in piece meal. Since Styx Brahmos is the only one to be acquired in numbers and retained over a longish period of time.


Forgotton Klub ??? On the first three 'Talwar' class frigates.

Crystal Maze cannot be said to be a antiship missile though it can be used in this role, with IN jugaad. And Styx is still in use in maybe 10 - 15 vessels

K

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 22 Apr 2015 21:53

I forgot to mention KH-59M :-P

I think these could have been rationalised to 2-3 types at max. As of today Klub is not really required on surface platforms, though still useful on the Kilos.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 23 Apr 2015 16:19

The cost of these various missiles is also a major decision-maker apart from capability. I still think that we could use Klubs because of its multi-role capability with the various variants,useful on the smaller warships that cannot accommodate BMos. The silos could have a mix of anti-ship and anti-sub Klubs.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 23 Apr 2015 16:23

Philip both brahmos and klub are heavy ashm and can't be fitted on vessels that are designed for uran/harpoon etc without structural modifications. Also IN didn't purchase any land attack or ASW variant for talwar class. As i mentioned earlier the Russian UVLS is capable of firing both Brahmos and Klub missile, the one fitted on Kolkata designed by L&T might not be.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 23 Apr 2015 19:04

What about the L&T VLS on the Rajputs? One is looking at options for smaller warships ,corvettes with a flexible load of say 8/12 Klubs,at least 4 ASW and 4 anti-ship missiles,depending upon the mission. When BMos-M arrives,the options will be greater.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby NRao » 23 Apr 2015 20:08

Boom.

MAKING WAVES :: Aiding India’s Next-Generation Aircraft Carrier


Recommendations for the United States

The Fight Function

• Explore the possibility of equipping India’s carrier with the electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS)

• Offer India access to various advanced aviation systems, such as the U.S. Navy’s E-2C/D Hawkeye for airborne early warning and battle management and the fifth-generation F-35C Lightning strike fighter, so as to permit the Indian Navy to secure a combat advantage over its rivals’ air wings.

The Move Function

• Consider changes to current U.S. policy to allow for discussions about nuclear propulsion technology in order to, among other things, make the integration of EMALS technology a viable option for India’s next-generation carrier

The Integrate Function


• Support a partnership between the Indian Navy and the U.S. Naval Sea Systems Command, and U.S. private industry as appropriate, to validate the vessel’s engineering and production designs, imbibe best practices from the U.S. experience when constructing the carrier, and coordinate on sea trials
prior to commissioning the ship

• Encourage the conclusion of consulting contracts and memoranda of understanding between Indian shipyards and U.S. industry to assist India in incorporating advanced construction techniques when building its new large-deck carriers.
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Kersi D » 23 Apr 2015 20:14

John wrote:Philip both brahmos and klub are heavy ashm and can't be fitted on vessels that are designed for uran/harpoon etc without structural modifications. Also IN didn't purchase any land attack or ASW variant for talwar class. As i mentioned earlier the Russian UVLS is capable of firing both Brahmos and Klub missile, the one fitted on Kolkata designed by L&T might not be.


IN has 3M-14 land attack versions but they may not reveal the vessels that will / can launch them.

No idea about ASW Klubs, either on surface ships or on our subs.

K

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 23 Apr 2015 22:50

^ That's not been publicly acknowledged and the article that mentioned it was for sub launch.

Philip wrote:What about the L&T VLS on the Rajputs? One is looking at options for smaller warships ,corvettes with a flexible load of say 8/12 Klubs,at least 4 ASW and 4 anti-ship missiles,depending upon the mission. When BMos-M arrives,the options will be greater.

I believe the launcher on Rajput is a basic test platform. As per open source information there is no indication that 91R were ever purchased. Since same launcher is used for Brahmos and Klub you can operate 91RTE2 and Brahmos from same platform, so there is no need for 3M-54.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 24 Apr 2015 11:45

The ASW variants of Klub can even be launched from the TTs on deck into the water from where they function as if launched from a sub's tubes. So it is poss. for the IN to acquire/operate this variant if it has not done so already.The key factor is to be able to detect the sub with integral sonars/assets to fully exploit the range of the missile.

Large carriers in the future. Given the PLAN strategy of developing anti-ship BMs,which will only perform better as time goes by and may increase in proliferation,a Q for the IN is how do we protect a large carrier from such attack and how many carriers can we afford ? EMALS and N-plants aboard a carrier will cost a whopping price,not to mention the assets aboard,40-50 aircraft and helos. It may simply be unaffordable. Even the RN couldn't afford two new 65t QE carriers and dropped Cats and plumped for the F-35B because it would've cost another billion+.

So what are our options? While the carrier component of the fleet will be relatively strong with two new carriers,IAC-1 and the Vik-A in service before 2020,it is the sub component that requires the highest priority both strat SSBNs and conventional and SSN/SSGN subs. We are to build 8 new SSNs,v.good news. Therefore when will we be able to afford a large N-powered EMALS carrier?

Some time ago I suggested that the design of our amphib platforms is such that they too can also perform a significant air role,both in support of amphib ops as well as fleet air defence and strike.
Instead of 4 smaller amphibs,3 larger amphibs with a flight deck as large as the IAC-1 and corresponding hangar size would give these vessels the "swing" capability for ASW.anti-air.strike apart from amphib support. The vessels could be designed to operate our existing naval aircraft,MIG-29K,NLCAs as well as JSF type STOVL fighters. 3 larger amphib vessels of size approx. that of the IAC-1s would give us far better punch than 4 smaller 25,000t vessels like the new Japanese helo-carriers. This would give us an interim solution for force projection and at least 100-+ naval strike aircraft able to operate from 5 platforms.Add to this increased number of land-based IN aircraft,taking over a greater role from the IAF of defence of the Indian coast and island territories,thus releasing more IAF aircraft to do duty on the Sino-Pak borders, the IN should be able to dominate the air space of the IOR and if we also operate aircraft from Viet bases,should be able to check the PLANs attempts to intrude into the IOR .

The advantage that geography has given us is the dagger of the Indian landmass thrusting into the IOR from where LR land based aircraft can operate from India's unsinkable carrier,INS India.

Here is a famous quote from Lord Curzon a century ago X-posted from the For. affairs td. There is no alternative.India has to be the dominating pre-eminent naval power in the IOR,also influencing events in the Indo-China Sea for our very survival.

[quote]The central position of India,its magnificent resources,multitude of men,its great trading harbours,its reserve of military strength...all these are issues of precious value.On the West India must exercise a predominant influence over the destinies of Persia and Afghanistan,on the North,it can veto any rival in Tibet,on the North-east...it can exert great pressure upon China,and it is one of the guardians of the autonomous existence of Siam".[/quote]

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 24 Apr 2015 23:56

Philip wrote:The ASW variants of Klub can even be launched from the TTs on deck into the water from where they function as if launched from a sub's tubes. So it is poss. for the IN to acquire/operate this variant if it has not done so already.The key factor is to be able to detect the sub with integral sonars/assets to fully exploit the range of the missile.



Philip do you have any source for that 91RE1 can launched from torpedo tubes in surface vessels the launch mechanism and fire control are way different. Even soviets operated two different variants of RPK-2 for this reason.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Nikhil T » 25 Apr 2015 00:12

Navy to commission new naval base in Gujarat next week


NEW DELHI: The Navy has decided to ramp up its presence in Gujarat and will commission its new base INS Sardar Patel :twisted: next month in the coastal town of Porbandar to enhance maritime security.

Gujarat, which has the longest coastline in the country, is very important in terms of economy and security and hence it is natural that Navy is planning augmentation of its activities and infrastructural facilities, defence sources here said.

INS Sardar Patel would be commissioned on May 9. Currently, Navy shares the Porbandar jetty with Coast Guard and Gujarat Maritime Board.

The Navy is planning to have its own jetty and move some of its ships to Gujarat from Mumbai, from where it currently operates.

Navy has kept a small detachment of Dorner maritime surveillance aircraft and UAVs at the Porbandar airport.

With INS Sardar Patel being commissioned, there would be more financial power and manpower that will be allocated.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ravip » 25 Apr 2015 10:22

Is this the first time that they are naming a base after a persons name?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby arshyam » 25 Apr 2015 10:46

No, there is INS Kattabomman, named after Veerapandi Kattabomman.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rahul M » 25 Apr 2015 10:48

INS Netaji Subhash.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby arun » 25 Apr 2015 11:01

INS Shivaji after Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
INS Angre after Kanoji Angre.
INS Jawarhalal Nehru after former PM Jawarhalal Nehru.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 25 Apr 2015 15:30

John you're right.RPK6/7 can be fired from TTs as mentioned.However,I do recall a report some time ago,not on the net, about Klub ASW missiles being able to be fired from surface warships using 53cm TTs. I shall try and dig that out.The accuracy of that has to be determined.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Nikhil T » 26 Apr 2015 11:16

Navy experimenting with composite superstructure for warships

Two Kamorta-class ships to be built with Swedish supplied composites - will enhance stealth and also, cut down weight by upto 30%.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rahul M » 26 Apr 2015 11:33

arun wrote:INS Shivaji after Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
INS Angre after Kanoji Angre.
INS Jawarhalal Nehru after former PM Jawarhalal Nehru.

where is the last one ?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby pankajs » 26 Apr 2015 14:40

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 056945.cms
Navy experimenting with composite superstructure for warships
KOLKATA: The Navy is building two Anti- Submarine Warfare Corvettes using carbon fibre composite material from Sweden for the first time as it goes beyond using steel for warships.

Warships are traditionally made using stainless steel but the new carbon fibre composite superstructure, imported from Swedish shipyard Kockums, not only makes the warship lighter but also makes it difficult for the enemy to spot.

Being built by defence PSU Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd (GRSE) in Kolkata, INS Kiltan and INS Kavaratti are named after islands in the Lakshwadeep archipelago.

The Kamorta-class corvettes would be delivered to the Navy within 2017.

"These are the first ships where such a technology is being used in India. Stealth is the most important feature of composite material as it is less susceptible to detection unlike steel," Commodore Ratnakar Ghosh, Director (shipbuilding), GRSE, told PTI.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Nitesh » 26 Apr 2015 19:33

Why import "composite material"? Isn't we are supposed to be self sufficient in this arena? Or Naval composite materials are different from what we have worked for LCA's?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karthik S » 26 Apr 2015 20:34

arun wrote:INS Shivaji after Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
INS Angre after Kanoji Angre.
INS Jawarhalal Nehru after former PM Jawarhalal Nehru.


India's favorite name

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby JTull » 26 Apr 2015 21:52

Not quite!

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Kartik » 27 Apr 2015 12:52

INS Vikramaditya being fitted with Barak 1 missiles

India’s biggest naval warship, the sea-borne aircraft carrier the INS Vikramaditya, is under a minor ‘re-fit’ that will complete its Close-In Warfare System (CIWS), a protection from incoming enemy missiles.

The Israeli Barak missile is being installed on the ship at its home the base, Karwar, south of Goa.The Vikramaditya participated in the naval exercise ‘Tropex’ that concluded on February 28. After the exercise, its re-fit was ordered.
The warship could carry up to 32 or 48 LR-SAMs Navy was originally looking at two options, either the Israeli Barak or the Russian Shitil missiles. Vice Admiral Ashok Subedar, Controller Warship Production and Acquisition, told the media that the Vikramaditya will get a Barak-missile launch system that will be taken from one of warships that is being decommissioned.
Sources said the INS Godavari, which had been given a Barak launch system some 10 years ago has a fully functional system and that is being put on the aircraft carrier. The Godavari is 32 years old and is set for decommissioning.

“The Barak, Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAMs), is being fitted on the warship. It’s a complex procedure and will entail some cutting through the deck, a period of some four to nine months has been factored in for this,” sources said.

..

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 27 Apr 2015 12:54

Confusion in report

Barak-1 and lr-sam used interchangeably

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby K_Rohit » 27 Apr 2015 15:03

Just looking up INS Ganga on BR, I realize that the BR page is quite outdated. The latest photos (on BR) show the 4 AK 630 and Barak combination, but still shows the 2x57 mm mounting. The latest photo of F20 shows a 76 mm OTO mounting (http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1430037960). There have been upgrades which we have not documented.

1) This seems to be a task for the task force updating BR

2) Why does this ship need 4 AK630 and Barak-1! Seems a huge overkill
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2015 15:10

ET:

NEW DELHI: The shipbuilding industry is set for mega business with the government deciding that an ongoing Rs 60,000 crore plan to procure diesel electric submarines will be the last order to go to foreign firms and that all future projects will be designed and made in India.

Leading international players, which have for long eyed India as one of the largest importer of submarines in the world, are currently in contention for the P75 I project to manufacture six new stealthy submarines in India.

A top Navy officer told ET that the government has cleared the project on the condition that all future acquisitions of conventional submarines will be based on an indigenous design and produced at Indian shipyards. The Navy has accordingly initiated a futuristic design plan even though the next batch of conventional submarines under Project 76 would take several more years before a firm order is placed..

"It has been decided that after P75 I, all future submarines will be of our own design and will be made in India. The government has been very clear on this and we have already begun the work, even though the requirement is of the future," Navy's Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition Vice Admiral AV Subhedar confirmed to ET.


A similar project for six new nuclear powered submarines will obviously be of Indian design as foreign collaborators cannot share such technology openly. Private firm L&T is already working the Navy on this project

Sources said that the decision was conveyed at the very top with the government keen that the Project 76 be completely indigenous with the participation of both public and private shipyards. Indian firms like Pipavav, L&T and ABG shipyards are set to be the biggest gainers from this decision as public sector shipyards do not have the capacity to match up the demand. Navy officials said that the next requirement under Project 76 would come up towards the end of this decade.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 28 Apr 2015 12:17

The report saying that the deck steel has to be cut through for installation of the B-8 silos beggars a Q.Where are they going to be installed on the ship? On either beam or as in the Kuznetsov,in the flight deck? It would have to be located where it does not interfere with the deck aircraft parking spots.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2015 13:03

probably as on the vikrant on the deck near the island.
if taken from godavari it will be barak-1 only

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby srin » 28 Apr 2015 13:30

Vikky has the decoy launchers next to the sky-jump. That's probably the only place where they might be able to put the VLS without infringing on the flight deck real estate.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2015 14:38

ideally for a ship this large and valuable there should be one one each side or one in front and rear.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 28 Apr 2015 16:23

srin wrote:Vikky has the decoy launchers next to the sky-jump. That's probably the only place where they might be able to put the VLS without infringing on the flight deck real estate.


The starboard corner towards the stern is also a candidate.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby sankum » 29 Apr 2015 10:59

Latest image of INS Vikrant from google earth.

Image


Image of INS Vikrant from google earth

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 29 Apr 2015 22:16


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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 29 Apr 2015 23:15

Pipavav Cadet Training Ship - rendering. Wonder when we are going to see the real one.

Edit: it is abg

Image
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