Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

NRao wrote:
John wrote:^ Single engine approaches for even F-4 and F-18 is highly risky.
All the more reason that this would have been nailed down BEFORE handing over the ship.
Yes but not surprising , Brits are moaning about all the lack of information with F-35 as QE is readied for indication. Well as i added later on F-4 has strict specifications on when single engine landings can be attempted. Being able to land is different than being certified which navy requires, considering the snails pace at which Russian are procuring Mig-29k i don't think we might get in a while.

Just an fyi we discussed this couple months ago.
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Viv S »

John wrote:Yes but not surprising , Brits are moaning about all the lack of information with F-35 as QE is readied for indication. Well as i added later on F-4 has strict specifications on when single engine landings can be attempted. Being able to land is different than being certified which navy requires, considering the snails pace at which Russian are procuring Mig-29k i don't think we might get in a while.

Just an fyi we discussed this couple months ago.
At the risk of rehashing it, compare the MiG-29's safety record with the single engined F-16 or Mirage 2000. When you're flying Russian, its best to stick with two engines. Something even the Russians have realized, with their new Yak-130 trainer employing two Al-222 engines instead of a single non-afterburning variant of the RD-33.

And its not like this is endemic only to the Klimov family. Even the supposedly modern Al-31 has been packing up at the rate of 3/month on the IAF's Su-30MKI. There were a whopping 35 engine failures last year IIRC. One starts to realise why the IAF decided to retire the MiG-27 rejecting the proposal to re-engine it with the Al-31. And some people ask why the GE 404 was employed on the Tejas instead of the RD-33. Can you imagine the result? We'd have had a spate of crashes, and the program might have been canned entirely by now.

Point is, the F-35B/C on its single engine is likely a far safer aircraft than the MiG-29K with its twin set. Take a look at the F-35's DOT&E reports; the sheer extent of testing they put the engine & aircraft through is truly impressive.

(BTW the Brits have operational crews embedded with the USMC right now, participating in the first operation testing phase with their senior officers observing. I don't where you heard complaints of lack of information. - Link 1, Link 2)

In any event, the MiG-29K like the Vikramaditya is a done deal. No scope for rolling back either boondoggle. What is worrying, in light of these issues, is the PAK FA. The 117 hasn't gotten much flight time (still had two public failures in that short period) and its based on the (relatively) reliable AL-31 family. The new Izdeliye 30 engines which we intend to equip our units with, will barely be out of the prototype stage. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.
Last edited by Viv S on 28 May 2015 21:38, edited 2 times in total.
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Viv S »

NRao wrote:Not sure, but IIRC, the IN has removed the intake doors????????????
The MiG-29K does have FOD protection, just that it employs a screen in lieu of louvres as on the legacy MiG-29.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

John,

Trying to understand. We ALL were aware ,- from day one - about the 29K. Did someone, perchance , forget that this plane had two engines? What in that is not surprising?

And if the world was aware of the F-4 and 18 situation, all the worse.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20782
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

This was the experience at induction BTW, 5 years back :lol:
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/12/ ... g-29k.html
Hardly surprising anymore. Sources indicate that the MiG-29K induction experience is proving to be a real nuisance, with the Russians nitpicking over contractual provisions and delaying smooth operations at the Black Panthers squadron in Goa. I've been requested by my sources not to put down the precise nature of the problems, though suffice it to say that the Indian Navy is not in the least pleased with how the Russians are executing and following up on the K contract.
Five years later, aircraft still don't work right. :roll:
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

since Vishal will surely have a catapult launch (steam/emals) and E2D, it makes sense for it to have JSF or Rafale.
if a Vikrant2 is sanctioned to fill the gap, makes sense to guy some 20 extra rafale.
the french AF and navy have nothing on table to replace retiring Mirage2000 and Super Etendard so rafale production for home use will surely resume
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Not so fast.

Russia is thinking of a 100,000 ton carrier. And, I think I read that they are hoping for a electric cat for that???? A naval PAK-FA has to follow, if not a "6th Gen" naval plane ......... it just has to.

For ALL that they need funds.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

Yes but not surprising , Brits are moaning about all the lack of information with F-35 as QE is readied for indication
As level I partners the british have had the highest level of information sharing in addition to a seat at the table. They are conducting their own embedded evaluations and have done so in DT1 (development testing I aboard USS Wasp), DT2 (WASP) and again in OT-1. They have also had their own pilots aboard the USS Wasp flying the F-35B's during developmental testing. Operational testing requires squadron pilots so there are no UK pilots this time around but they have maintainers onboard and the AOC had its top boss present for a full day last week on board the USS Wasp. They are also going to embed their maintainers into front line USMC squadrons post IOC of the USMC as well.

That is one aspect of the F-35B training and logistical operations. As far as UK-Unique testing is concerned, the United Kingdom has had full access to the PAX RIVER ski ramp and have in fact modified the existing ski ramp using the same materials as used by the QE class carriers. The Ski Ramp testing validates the models developed by BaE in Britain and charts tactics and syllabus for rolling vertical landings on the deck and other such activities. This aspect of the development started in Feb. of this year using British F-35B's as is being carried out at Pax. River Maryland with the support of the ITF positioned there.

Here is more on the deep involvement of the RAF and RN with USMC units across the US and onboard the ships -
One aspect of the effort for ship integration of the F-35B aboard the ship was maintenance at sea. Maintainers from the three squadrons – the Green Knights from Yuma, the Warlords from Beaufort, and those from VMX-22 – worked together for the first time aboard the ship. And according to the maintainers their approach worked very well.

The report from the team aboard the ship was straightforward: “we could maintain the plane on ship very well and saw no loss of capability compared to maintaining the plane ashore.”

The Brits were aboard as well and are training with the Marines at Beaufort, S.C., the base where all foreign F-35B pilots and the foreign maintainers as well. The Italians will be coming next; both the Italian Navy and Air Force will operate F-35Bs.

I have now had a chance to visit all three new large deck ships where the F-35 will play a key role: the HMS Queen Elizabeth on March 31 in Scotland; earlier aboard the USS America, and the CVN-78 (Gerald Ford). The British carrier is designed for the F-35B and the engagement of the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force with the Marines and the Navy is very significant, and personnel clearly were looking for lessons learned aboard the ship to integrate with the standing up of the new class of the UK’s very innovative carriers which the United Kingdom is building.

Lt. Cdr. Neil Mathieson and Lt. Cdr. Beth Kitchen represented the Royal Navy. Mathieson was visiting the ship and returning to the UK with lessons learned; Kitchen is based at Beaufort and is an integral part of the Royal Navy-Marine team, notably with regard to rolling out the maintenance process and effort.


Outside of the F-35B, the UK is also embedding its RN pilots and support staff with the USN since it does not have a carrier at the moment. You would be hard pressed to find a better model of joint program development than the one that exists between the UK MOD and the Pentagon, the Brits have been involved with the program from day-1, and even before the JSF kickstarted they had been involved in the ASTOVL and JAST programs as well both from a government perspective and an industry perspective.
Last edited by brar_w on 29 May 2015 16:05, edited 4 times in total.
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7794
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Prasad »

NRao wrote:Not so fast.

Russia is thinking of a 100,000 ton carrier. And, I think I read that they are hoping for a electric cat for that???? A naval PAK-FA has to follow, if not a "6th Gen" naval plane ......... it just has to.

For ALL that they need funds.
Naval PAK-FA or Naval AMCA? I wonder which one we'll prefer if push comes to shove. Can we get prototypes in the air by the time IAC2 hits the water?
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Russia has no money to run kuz properly let alone build a 10b new carrier
Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Hobbes »

John wrote:^ Single engine approaches for a carrier landing even for F-4 and F-18 is highly risky, can't say about Hornet but F-4 was never certified and even instructs against single engine landing.
The F-4 was retired 20 years ago, while the Mig-29K is a current type. Technology and engines have advanced significantly since then, as may be evidenced by the F-4's turbojet power plant.

This article offers some information:
The Indian Navy Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29Ks are awaiting trials by Russian manufacturer Irkut to prove that the Fulcrums can land and make a go-around on an aircraft carrier with only a single engine engaged, military sources in New Delhi say.

Some Indian media like The Hindu are questioning the operations capability of the new shipborne fighters that operate from the deck of the INS Vikramaditya, a former Kiev-class Russian aircraft carrier. Engine problems are the main reason of concern, with reportedly 30 of the MiG-29K engines already having problems on the 13 out of 45 ordered Navy Fulcrums commissioned so far.

The Indian Navy is now awaiting Russian trials on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov before it clears its MiG-29Ks for single-engine approaches and landings. The Vikramaditya and its air wing are still in working-up trials and do not operate too far from shore to give the fighter pilots a secondary airfield on land to divert to in case the jocks encounter technical issues with their planes.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Singha wrote:Russia has no money to run kuz properly let alone build a 10b new carrier
That is where and when India comes into the picture.

At times I think the Ukrainian problem is a God sent problem.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5305
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by srai »

srin wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

G-2-G is more than just buying a product. They come with other strategic investments, like nuclear power plants and fuel, and diplomatic gains, such as permanent seat at the UNSC. It's hard to put price tag on that.
Let me make it more concrete then. If Germany demands $10b for U-216 made in Pipavav and Russia quotes $8b for Amur made in MDL and France asks for $10b for another 6 Scorpene subs (with DRDO AIP) in MDL and Japan demands $12b for Soryu made at L&T, which one would you accept ?
The answer is whoever provides strategic values India covets but which are hard to come by. The policy of G-2-G is to spread major purchases among different countries and get additional "strategic" benefits from each of them. You won't get that in an open competition, which are primarily company-level and not government-level meaning that they (companies) won't be able to provide strategic offsets. As far as price of products goes, they will look at what the home armed forces purchased those products for and how much it was exported for and negotiate from there. Even if it were to be an open competition as we saw in the MMRCA deal, the quoted price is not what negotiated price is when all the additional add-ons like ToT of individual components are factored in and worshares are determined. As we see with Rafale deal through G-2-G, there may be discounts offered with no middle men benefiting from it and far less chance of corruption. And as seen with FMS, major purchases are quickly executed (i.e. within 3-to-5 years) which is in contrast to open-competitions that take decades to fructify. Case in point are MMRCA and 155mm artillery--both of them have have crossed the decade mark already and are still ways off.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5305
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by srai »

srai wrote:
Lisa wrote:{quote="Philip"}
In one year, the Indian Navy’s flagship aircraft carrier spent a total of 220 days at sea and its aircraft have carried out 240 takeoffs and landings
...{/quote}

Does that mean that there was ballpark ONE take and landing per day. Is this normal?
No. This was more of a transition year from Russians to Indians. See the bolded below.
{quote="Philip"}...


INS Vikramaditya completes a year with the Indian Navy
November 25, 2014 Alexander Yemelyanenkov,
In one year, the Indian Navy’s flagship aircraft carrier spent a total of 220 days at sea and its aircraft have carried out 240 takeoffs and landings [/url]

Vikramaditya marks a year of service in the Indian Navy. Source: Sevmash press service.
It’s been over a year since the INS Vikramaditya was handed over to the Indian Navy.

Recently, specialists from Rosoboronexport and Russian equipment suppliers inspected the flagship Indian aircraft carrier as a part of the warranty agreement.

According to Sergey Marichev, Deputy Director General of the defense shipyard Sevmash, where the carrier has been substantially re-born, the Indian Navy has been using the ship intensively for the entire year. It spent more than 220 days at sea. “And that's more than the aircraft carrier spent in the Northern Seas on factory tests in two years,” the Severodvinsk shipyard said in a press note.

Since the official transfer of Vikramaditya, several Indian leaders have the visited the ship, including Prime Minister Narendra Modi. In the presence of distinguished guests, and in a conventional setting, the MiG-26 K/KUBs have carried out 240 takeoffs and landings. As a result, the Indian pilots under the supervision of the MiG Corp completed the entire training program, including the preparation for independent night flights.

During the whole time, the aircraft carrier had aboard a guarantee group of Sevmash specialists, who provided technical advice when needed and responded promptly to one or the other difficulty related to operating systems and mechanisms. The one-year warranty service expired on November 16th. But even before the expiration, the Indian side expressed the desire to extend the business relationship with the Russian shipyard and to agree on the service support for the aircraft carrier for its entire life cycle, which is at least 20 years.

Russian shipbuilders and representatives of the Indian Defence Ministry are meeting in New Delhi this week to discuss the details of the carrier's after-sales service. And in late November, Vikramaditya will be put to sea again in order to continue flying aircraft in low visibility conditions.
...
{/quote}
This also explains why the takeoffs and landings were low. Check out the bolded part below.
NRao wrote:How is it that the Russians did not test and the IN accepted this?

Indian Navy MiG-29s awaiting Russian trials

The Indian Navy Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29Ks are awaiting trials by Russian manufacturer Irkut to prove that the Fulcrums can land and make a go-around on an aircraft carrier with only a single engine engaged, military sources in New Delhi say.

Some Indian media like The Hindu are questioning the operations capability of the new shipborne fighters that operate from the deck of the INS Vikramaditya, a former Kiev-class Russian aircraft carrier. Engine problems are the main reason of concern, with reportedly 30 of the MiG-29K engines already having problems on the 13 out of 45 ordered Navy Fulcrums commissioned so far.

The Indian Navy is now awaiting Russian trials on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov before it clears its MiG-29Ks for single-engine approaches and landings. The Vikramaditya and its air wing are still in working-up trials and do not operate too far from shore to give the fighter pilots a secondary airfield on land to divert to in case the jocks encounter technical issues with their planes
I would have thought that such tests would be normal.

?????????
SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 546
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by SNaik »

What happened to Vikrant? Was it re-launched yesterday?
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

NRao wrote:
Singha wrote:Russia has no money to run kuz properly let alone build a 10b new carrier
That is where and when India comes into the picture.

At times I think the Ukrainian problem is a God sent problem.
yeah but its not as if Rus is a master of 100k CVN building and ops and can help us quickly get 2-3 vishal online. they do less carrier ops than us even historically. even the venerable viraat probably has more fighting teeth and training than the kuznetsov which i consider a training ship
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2525
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by srin »

Kuznetsov carrier group typically has an ocean-going tug to bail it out if it has engine problems (and it has had a few in the past). It is that bad.

Soviets invested more into submarines and SLBMs than aircraft carriers and it shows. We should pick up technologies from others when available, but we should essentially go alone
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Please read the MIG-29K/IN reports in correct chronology.The Hindu report about engines was later amplified/corrected with the report that the engine problems were due to the runway conditions and grit ingestion. There are other press reports about the repeated annual task of repairing the runway at Goa because of shoddy workmanship.These have been posted some time ago.Why is there no complaint about the MIG-29K sqd. located at Dega,Vizag? What about IAG aircraft? The early MIG-29s,air force versions had the intake shutters,as the RuAF planned to use these aircraft from unpaved runways in the event of war with NATO,where the principal air bases would come under attack. later on the shutters were discarded.The fact is that the aircraft is an excellent bird,the Egyptian order,Polish MIG-29 upgrade and Russian order of the same for the Kuznetsov evident of the capability of the aircraft.

Interesting viewpoint from Karnad on an IN N-powered supercarrier.Fits in with the BRF viewpoint too.
US Defence Bait is Potent But Impractical Symbolism
By Bharat Karnad
Published: 29th May 2015

The American defence secretary Ashton Carter drops into Delhi next week bearing ideas for joint military projects and things to sell in government-to-government (G2G) deals—Foreign Military Sales (FMS) in Pentagonese. The apparent absence of middlemen and corruption makes G2G/FMS the politically safe method of purchasing arms.

Seeking to enlarge its scope as defence supplier, the US has apparently settled on a two-pronged strategy. On the one hand, it is offering the manifestly cutting-edge electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) to equip the new generation indigenous aircraft carriers. This offer is impractical but symbolically potent, meant to still Indian criticism about the US not parting with advanced technologies. FMS of traditional hardware constitute the other prong, and the M-777 ultra-light howitzer (ULH) tops the list. Let’s briefly examine these two offers.

At one level EMALS is irresistible. A sort of electromagnetic rail gun to launch aircraft, EMALS is a clean, high initial cost-low maintenance system that takes up less space than steam catapults, can be recharged quickly, and is easy on aircraft frames because the tow-force can be instantly adjusted to the weight of the plane being launched. In the three seconds it takes to get an aircraft airborne, EMALS generates as much as 60MW of power—enough, as it is noted, to light up 12,000 homes. And that’s the problem.

On US nuclear-powered super carriers it is not an issue. With EMALS in the picture, the Indian Navy, however, faces a dilemma about the energy pack. Washington hopes the 65,000-tonne Vishal-class carrier, now at the conception stage, will be nuclear-powered, fly the Lockheed F-35C, and India will accept technical advice and assistance from the US in designing and constructing the ship. Ashley Tellis persuasively makes this case in a Carnegie Endowment monograph. Tellis, however, made it clear at a recent event that, despite the proven incapacity of the Arihant submarine reactor to drive Vishal, the US will render no help in producing a more powerful and efficient highly enriched uranium-fuelled nuclear power plant. Naval stalwarts, however, see eight General Electric LM2500 gas turbine engines on-board as an alternative solution. But these engines will fill a lot of the ship’s innards, need vast oil tanks that will jostle for space with aviation fuel storage bins, making for severe design compromises and tradeoffs.

The navy’s aircraft carrier designing competence and the industry’s complex shipbuilding skills will undoubtedly be enhanced by collaborating with the US Naval Systems Command and American companies. The Narendra Modi government has to make a risky, step-up, decision. It has to consider, other than the nuclear reactor, two other critical factors. One is the $10billion-$13 billion cost of a nuclear carrier (CVN), compared to the $3 billion for the Kochi-built Vikrant. It will leave little money for everything else. Secondly, a CVN with 6-7 ship and submarine escort will substantially reduce the “maritime density” the 50-capital ship-strong Indian Navy (by 2030) will be able to muster. This will diminish the country’s naval presence in the Indian Ocean at a time when the fast-expanding Chinese Navy is increasing its maritime footprint. So, more of the smaller, conventionally-powered flat-tops, with compact steam catapult systems secured from the US, would seem the sensible option.

Carter’s pitching the ULH involves the usual skulduggery, questionable practices and procedures. The M-777 gun is produced by the Bofors Company, which was bought out by British Aerospace Systems (BAeS), thereby ostensibly converting this gun into a British product. London believes Washington (for a 3.8% commission) can more effectively sell it to India.

But ULH is prime candidate for the cleaver as defence minister Manohar Parrikar has promised to trim the “fat” from the military spend. Here’s why. Based on reports by the theatre Commands concerned about the border (roads) infrastructure and the artillery requirements, the General Staff, Artillery Branch, a decade ago recommended the standardisation of the fine, locally-produced, Dhanush 155mm/45 calibre howitzer across categories—towed, self-propelled, wheeled, tracked, and truck-mounted. This recommendation was endorsed by the army’s Northern, Eastern, Central, and Western Commands who vouched for this gun’s employability in the remotest areas.

However, the different howitzer categories permitted wily vested interests to seek, under the rubric of artillery modernisation, different guns possibly from different sources, each with different stocking and maintenance regimes, and differing “make” programmes—an imaginative way of multiplying gainful opportunities! This budding scam is reflected in the army’s obtaining only 114 Dhanush systems. Besides bad economics and compounding of an already difficult logistics problem, this approach paints a wrong picture of the artillery arm. The obsolete 120mm gun (8 regiments) apart, the 97-odd artillery regiments are pretty up-to-date featuring, besides the sensor-fused Dhanush, the Grad, Pinaka, and Smerch multi-barrel rocket launchers, the Brahmos (Block II) cruise missile, and the extraordinarily destructive point and area weapon—the Prahar missile. If ULH is deemed a dire need the answer is not the pricey M-777 but the locally-made, accurate, 105mm light field gun with range of 20km available at a third of the cost.

ULH entered the picture because the army chief General J J Singh in August 2005 conceived this spurious need, forced it on the artillery directorate, and manipulated the qualitative requirements (QRs) to fit M-777, which move got traction because the competing gun from ST Kinetics of Singapore that had beaten the BAeS item in every performance parameter, was sidelined by “corruption” allegations. The fact is the M-777 does not meet seven operational requirements, and an apprehensive BAeS refused permission for its field testing in India, and even the use of Indian-made ammunition. To bypass Indian QRs, this gun was routed by London in 2008 into the FMS channel. India even paid for transporting two M-777 units from the US for user trials, which confirmed its shortfalls.

Many revealing details are left out of this unavoidably shortened account. Parrikar can verify the entire tale by calling for the relevant files. He will see how military requirements are tailored and eased through the flawed procurement system to benefit foreign suppliers. The ULH deal is a minefield the Modi government best avoid stepping into. For Carter the M-777 is simply the wrong thing to peddle.

The writer is professor at the Centre for Policy Research and author of the forthcoming ‘Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)’
Germany lobbies India to buy Eurofighters, submarines[/b
By Reuters | 27 May, 2015,

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

No chance for the Eurofarter,but the U-boats have a great chance of swinging a G-to-G deal.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Please read the MIG-29K/IN reports in correct chronology.The Hindu report about engines was later amplified/corrected with the report that the engine problems were due to the runway conditions and grit ingestion. There are other press reports about the repeated annual task of repairing the runway at Goa because of shoddy workmanship.These have been posted some time ago.Why is there no complaint about the MIG-29K sqd. located at Dega,Vizag? What about IAG aircraft? The early MIG-29s,air force versions had the intake shutters,as the RuAF planned to use these aircraft from unpaved runways in the event of war with NATO,where the principal air bases would come under attack. later on the shutters were discarded.The fact is that the aircraft is an excellent bird,the Egyptian order,Polish MIG-29 upgrade and Russian order of the same for the Kuznetsov evident of the capability of the aircraft.

Interesting viewpoint from Karnad on an IN N-powered supercarrier.Fits in with the BRF viewpoint too.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 837552.ece
US Defence Bait is Potent But Impractical Symbolism
By Bharat Karnad
Published: 29th May 2015

The American defence secretary Ashton Carter drops into Delhi next week bearing ideas for joint military projects and things to sell in government-to-government (G2G) deals—Foreign Military Sales (FMS) in Pentagonese. The apparent absence of middlemen and corruption makes G2G/FMS the politically safe method of purchasing arms.

Seeking to enlarge its scope as defence supplier, the US has apparently settled on a two-pronged strategy. On the one hand, it is offering the manifestly cutting-edge electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) to equip the new generation indigenous aircraft carriers. This offer is impractical but symbolically potent, meant to still Indian criticism about the US not parting with advanced technologies. FMS of traditional hardware constitute the other prong, and the M-777 ultra-light howitzer (ULH) tops the list. Let’s briefly examine these two offers.

At one level EMALS is irresistible. A sort of electromagnetic rail gun to launch aircraft, EMALS is a clean, high initial cost-low maintenance system that takes up less space than steam catapults, can be recharged quickly, and is easy on aircraft frames because the tow-force can be instantly adjusted to the weight of the plane being launched. In the three seconds it takes to get an aircraft airborne, EMALS generates as much as 60MW of power—enough, as it is noted, to light up 12,000 homes. And that’s the problem.

On US nuclear-powered super carriers it is not an issue. With EMALS in the picture, the Indian Navy, however, faces a dilemma about the energy pack. Washington hopes the 65,000-tonne Vishal-class carrier, now at the conception stage, will be nuclear-powered, fly the Lockheed F-35C, and India will accept technical advice and assistance from the US in designing and constructing the ship. Ashley Tellis persuasively makes this case in a Carnegie Endowment monograph. Tellis, however, made it clear at a recent event that, despite the proven incapacity of the Arihant submarine reactor to drive Vishal, the US will render no help in producing a more powerful and efficient highly enriched uranium-fuelled nuclear power plant. Naval stalwarts, however, see eight General Electric LM2500 gas turbine engines on-board as an alternative solution. But these engines will fill a lot of the ship’s innards, need vast oil tanks that will jostle for space with aviation fuel storage bins, making for severe design compromises and tradeoffs.

The navy’s aircraft carrier designing competence and the industry’s complex shipbuilding skills will undoubtedly be enhanced by collaborating with the US Naval Systems Command and American companies. The Narendra Modi government has to make a risky, step-up, decision. It has to consider, other than the nuclear reactor, two other critical factors. One is the $10billion-$13 billion cost of a nuclear carrier (CVN), compared to the $3 billion for the Kochi-built Vikrant. It will leave little money for everything else. Secondly, a CVN with 6-7 ship and submarine escort will substantially reduce the “maritime density” the 50-capital ship-strong Indian Navy (by 2030) will be able to muster. This will diminish the country’s naval presence in the Indian Ocean at a time when the fast-expanding Chinese Navy is increasing its maritime footprint. So, more of the smaller, conventionally-powered flat-tops, with compact steam catapult systems secured from the US, would seem the sensible option.

Carter’s pitching the ULH involves the usual skulduggery, questionable practices and procedures. The M-777 gun is produced by the Bofors Company, which was bought out by British Aerospace Systems (BAeS), thereby ostensibly converting this gun into a British product. London believes Washington (for a 3.8% commission) can more effectively sell it to India.

But ULH is prime candidate for the cleaver as defence minister Manohar Parrikar has promised to trim the “fat” from the military spend. Here’s why. Based on reports by the theatre Commands concerned about the border (roads) infrastructure and the artillery requirements, the General Staff, Artillery Branch, a decade ago recommended the standardisation of the fine, locally-produced, Dhanush 155mm/45 calibre howitzer across categories—towed, self-propelled, wheeled, tracked, and truck-mounted. This recommendation was endorsed by the army’s Northern, Eastern, Central, and Western Commands who vouched for this gun’s employability in the remotest areas.

However, the different howitzer categories permitted wily vested interests to seek, under the rubric of artillery modernisation, different guns possibly from different sources, each with different stocking and maintenance regimes, and differing “make” programmes—an imaginative way of multiplying gainful opportunities! This budding scam is reflected in the army’s obtaining only 114 Dhanush systems. Besides bad economics and compounding of an already difficult logistics problem, this approach paints a wrong picture of the artillery arm. The obsolete 120mm gun (8 regiments) apart, the 97-odd artillery regiments are pretty up-to-date featuring, besides the sensor-fused Dhanush, the Grad, Pinaka, and Smerch multi-barrel rocket launchers, the Brahmos (Block II) cruise missile, and the extraordinarily destructive point and area weapon—the Prahar missile. If ULH is deemed a dire need the answer is not the pricey M-777 but the locally-made, accurate, 105mm light field gun with range of 20km available at a third of the cost.

ULH entered the picture because the army chief General J J Singh in August 2005 conceived this spurious need, forced it on the artillery directorate, and manipulated the qualitative requirements (QRs) to fit M-777, which move got traction because the competing gun from ST Kinetics of Singapore that had beaten the BAeS item in every performance parameter, was sidelined by “corruption” allegations. The fact is the M-777 does not meet seven operational requirements, and an apprehensive BAeS refused permission for its field testing in India, and even the use of Indian-made ammunition. To bypass Indian QRs, this gun was routed by London in 2008 into the FMS channel. India even paid for transporting two M-777 units from the US for user trials, which confirmed its shortfalls.

Many revealing details are left out of this unavoidably shortened account. Parrikar can verify the entire tale by calling for the relevant files. He will see how military requirements are tailored and eased through the flawed procurement system to benefit foreign suppliers. The ULH deal is a minefield the Modi government best avoid stepping into. For Carter the M-777 is simply the wrong thing to peddle.

The writer is professor at the Centre for Policy Research and author of the forthcoming ‘Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)’
Germany lobbies India to buy Eurofighters, submarines[/b
By Reuters | 27 May, 2015,

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
No chance for the Eurofarter,but the U-boats have a great chance of swinging a G-to-G deal.

http://in.rbth.com/news/2015/05/27/russ ... 43365.html
Russia and India to hold joint naval exercises – the Indra Navy-2015
27/05/2015
This year, Russia will hold naval exercises with another key partner in the Asian region – India, Colonel Alexander Gordeyev, representative of the Eastern Military District, told reporters on Wednesday.

“On June 1-4, we will be hosting the first planning conference in Vladivostok, to prepare for the joint Russian-Indian naval exercises – the Indra Navy-2015. The dates of holding, and the composition of forces and resources committed by the participating parties, will be discussed and approved during two subsequent meetings,” said Mr. Gordeyev.

According to him, during the upcoming talks, the parties will agree on the exercise area, the goals and objectives of the event, as well as the logistics procedures.

Last week, on May 21, the Russian-Chinese naval exercises “Sea Cooperation-2015” were concluded. For the first time in the history of cooperation between the two countries, these exercises took place in the Mediterranean Sea, where the participants practiced fighting against pirates and ensuring the security in the world’s oceans.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20782
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Karan M »

Yes, yes excellent bird and what not because Poland bought it :rotfl:

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20080218/99490063.html

As usual the apologia, defense for ze Russians no matter what ignores the MiGs hydraulic, radar and structural issues.
If the Indians were half as crooked we would have had major bloviation about how they are this, that.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19236
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by NRao »

Not sure where the confusion is WRT the MiG-29K with the IN.

There are two issues: Engine related problems and because of engine problem the ability to land, on the Vicky, on one/single engine.

The article that narrates both these incidences is from Feb, 2015 and the latest (post Dabolim - which I cannot find, but that is another issue).

The latter of these two problems (landing on a single engine) is universal, in that no matter where the Vicky is. IF that concern is true (which I have no doubt it is), then there has got to be an engine problem unrelated to runway conditions at Dabolim. Or conversely, if the runway at Dabolim was the problem, fixing the runway or relocating the planes should have resolved the problem and concerns about single engine landings.

What I can accept is that these MiGs had engine problems due to the conditions at Dabolim AND another set of problems unrelated to Dabolim.



On INS Dega ... where did thsi come from?........ is it operational? It was expected to be in 2015ish. The look-East was just thought of last year or so and has not been implemented so far (as far as I know). (And, what a travesty it would be if "East" stops at V'patnam.)

Then, 45 MiG-29Ks have been ordered, 21 delivered and 13 accepted after trials. That is not even a proper squad so far. I have no idea, but I expect all of them to be located at either Hansa or on Vicky (which is tether to the coast because of these engine problems).



An "expert" should not confuse distinct news items such as these. FUD.



My feel is that we have to remember that these MiG-29Ks are brand new designs - not the old MiG-29Ks of the early 1990s and therefore we should expect "some" issues (that go along with new products). But engine problems? Dunno. I file that news under "Russian Engines" - which have been very problematic in the recent past.

Furthermore I feel that the Russians are pushing things out-of-the-door - just to get them out. Perhaps more out of pressure to sustain a revenue stream - especially with the MiGs.

added l8r:

Just checked on wiki for Dega - not ready.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by brar_w »

Philip wrote:Ck out Karnad's latest piece posted in the IN td,about US carrier tech being touted and the LH's,the acquisition of which he has a bone to pick with. Could be reposted here too.
Thanks for pointing the article out, the author overlooks certain key data on the first portion...

The US, along with the United Kingdom, funded NAVAIR to conduct a detailed analysis, feasibility study and an analysis of alternative in addition to prepare technology for integrating the existing General Atomics EMALS and AAG systems on the proposed Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers. The 17 Million contract was awarded by NAVAIR to GA, late 2011 and work continued throughout 2012. The power requirements were reduced by around half due to the Ford having four EMALS tracks, while the Prince of Whales was to have 2 launch systems only.

If this were fitting EMALS on an existing ship, I could understand the trade-offs and the huge design risk involved, however for a new ship the risk is manageable and I don't think that anyone technically incharge of the effort can eliminate EMALS without going over the technical data and the work performed by NAVAIR and General Atomics. They have already worked at integrating the system on a non nuclear powered ship and I am fairly certain as the talks advanced this data would be shared with the Indian side in some shape or form. There may be cost implications, and complexity and deadlines to consider..There may also be an issue of trust etc but its very early to rule anything out on technical grounds.
Last edited by brar_w on 29 May 2015 17:30, edited 1 time in total.
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by John »

Viv S wrote:

At the risk of rehashing it, compare the MiG-29's safety record with the single engined F-16 or Mirage 2000. When you're flying Russian, its best to stick with two engines. Something even the Russians have realized, with their new Yak-130 trainer employing two Al-222 engines instead of a single non-afterburning variant of the RD-33.
Never really saying that Mig-29 engines' are reliable, i was proponent of procuring rest of Royal navy's SHAR along with LCA till 5th generation solution presents itself. What i was stating testing single engine landing for twin engines in carriers are generally not the used case.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

good riddance to the m777 if its chopped. m777, chinook and the apache are my pet peeves for 2015. some $10b of precious money down the train that dhanush, tejas, lch, rudra, prahaar, astra and aad could benefit from.
Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 635
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Ankit Desai »

India's First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier INS Vikrant Launches for Sea Trials
First Indian-made aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, made by Cochin Shipyard ltd, has undocked for sea trials. She'll undergo extensive harbour acceptance trials before getting commissioned.
Did main stream media miss it ?

-Ankit
narmad
BRFite
Posts: 226
Joined: 10 May 2005 09:47
Location: Mumbai
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by narmad »

Ankit Desai wrote:India's First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier INS Vikrant Launches for Sea Trials
First Indian-made aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, made by Cochin Shipyard ltd, has undocked for sea trials. She'll undergo extensive harbour acceptance trials before getting commissioned.
Did main stream media miss it ?

-Ankit
Sea Trials !!! Is Vikrant fitted already ?
The report makes it seem that the carrier is ready for induction.
Last i had heard it will take another two years .
hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5175
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by hanumadu »

No official pictures, but from defence forum india

Image
arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4572
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by arshyam »

Aren't propeller pics classified, or it that only for subs?
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Cosmo_R »

arshyam wrote:Aren't propeller pics classified, or it that only for subs?
No apparently only for random workers.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Shipyard looks clean..
No materials debris grass one of my pet peeves against indic yards
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Ht:
The Indian Air Force launched an anti-ship Harpoon missile from a fighter plane for the first time at a pre-designated target in the Arabian Sea last week. The missile, built by US defence giant Boeing, was launched on May 22 from a Jaguar maritime strike fighter that flew 200 nautical miles off the west coast to carry out the mission, a source said.

The fighter belonged to the IAF’s maritime strike squadron based at the Lohegaon airbase outside Pune. The Jaguar was refuelled midair during the mission, the source added.

An official confirmed it was the “first live firing” of the Harpoon from a warplane in India after integration by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. “It was successful,” he added.

With a range of 124 km, the Harpoon is capable of land-strike missions too.

The navy tested the Harpoon last year when a Boeing P-8I long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft launched the subsonic missile to take out a ‘target’ in the Bay of Bengal.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

Can't we make a bulk vlo shaped subsonic asm quickly using brahmos seeker, control unit and shaura/aad motor?
Bade
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7212
Joined: 23 May 2002 11:31
Location: badenberg in US administered part of America

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Bade »

KOCHI: The indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) being built at the Cochin Shipyard for the Indian Navy will be undocked on Saturday, marking completion of the critical stage of phase-II of the constriction.

“Though it is a major step towards the the completion of a crucial phase of the prestigious project, no formal function has been organised in connection with the undocking of the vessel,” said Shipyard authorities.

“Undocking means that the work that needs to be carried out in the dry dock has been completed. All the underwater works have been completed, and the ship is ready to float out of the dry dock. The remaining work can be completed while the ship is floating,” they said.

When the first phase was completed in August 2013, the 37,500-tonne warship was launched by then Defence Minister A K Antony’s wife Elizabeth, and was named INS Vikrant. The warship is supposed to begin sea trials in 2017, and will be inducted into the Navy by 2018 end.

INS Vikrant is capable of carrying 36 fixed-wing aircraft, including Russian-made MiG-29K and the yet-to-be-inducted indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
http://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/ ... 839783.ece
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

Flight testing of the MIG-29K at INS Dega was on as early as late 2013,I watched them taking off and landing several times.Did not post for obvious reasons. The sqd. was "created" late last year.Here are assorted reports.
Although the LCN of the Dabolim runway was strengthened, taxiways widened and aprons prepared for the Tu-142Ms but the aircraft had to remain parked and serviced in the open.
Indian Navy all set to raise a new MiG 29K squadron on the Eastern Front!
Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by Chanakya's_Chant, Aug 24, 2014.

http://defence.pk/threads/indian-navy-a ... nt.330497/
Friend and colleague Shivamurthy Gurumath who was down in Visakhapatnam for the INS Kamorta commissioning on Saturday caught these MiG-29Ks at the naval air station there. Turns out a clutch of Ks from the Black Panthers squadron in Goa are ripping it over the eastern sea in preparation for the new squadron that navy intends to raise in the east. The Ks at Goa operate off the INS Vikramaditya. Most of the 37 MiG-29K and 8 MiG-29KUBs have been delivered, with the second order currently being serviced.

With MiG infrastructure coming up at Vizag's INS Dega naval air station, new MiG-29Ks will progressively be inducted here ahead of full squadron status. The Ks at the Visakhapatnam unit will spend the next few years operating much like the existing INAS 303 jets served ahead of Vikramaditya's arrival. They'll operate from shore until the new Vikrant-class indigenous aircraft carrier enters service, though that's some way off. A report by my colleague Jugal Purohit plays out today on Headlines Today. Will post the link with video pictures of the Ks at Dega.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 324556.ece
Bobbili airfield

The Indian Navy was giving work to the Hindustan Shipyard on nomination basis as it was a Defence Public Sector Unit, the Navy chief said. However, in future, the Navy would not be able to give works on nomination basis and that HSL would have to compete with other Defence shipyards for Navy works, he clarified. The Indian Navy is reactivating the old World War II airstrip near Bobbili as an alternative airfield for the aircraft operating out of INS Dega.

“At present, the alternative airfields for aircraft operating out of INS Dega are Bhubaneswar or Hyderabad, which are nearly an hour’s flying distance,” Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Eastern Naval Command Vice Admiral Anil Chopra said.
Second squadron of MiG 29k will also be based at INS Dega, says Admiral Devendra Kumar Joshi
IN's own website:
http://indiannavy.nic.in/print/221
(f) INAS 553 Cell:- INAS 553 is likely to be commissioned as the first MiG 29K squadron in early 2015 . Post commissioning, INAS 553 would undertake the initial and continued training for MiG 29K . accordingly, to streamline the commissioning, 553 cell has been created on 15 Nov 14.
PS:The first sqd.,"Black Panthers" at Dab. Goa is Sqd.No. 303,now aboard the Vik-A.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

"Discreet talks" on for 6 "small" German U-boats for $11B. This is over $1.5B for each sub,an astronomical price when Vietnam's larger 3000t advanced version Kilos have cost just ...
the cost is expected to more than 3.2 billion U.S. dollars, will be Russia's largest naval export contracts.
Russia News Agency report quoted the Russian Centre for Strategic and technical analysis, six submarines of the construction cost will be more than 2.1 billion U.S. dollars, and weapons and equipment, infrastructure and other equipment costs that need further 1.1 billion.
http://defense-studies.blogspot.in/2010 ... es-in.html

*This means that one would be able to buy approx. 3-4 late-model Kilos for the price of just one U-boat.The German deal being negotiated is $11B for just 6 German U-boats,while 6 Kilos for Vietnam have cost just $3B+.In other words,almost 24 Kilos for just 6 Type-214(?) U-boats,which do not even carry a Klub missile type equivalent!

http://defense-studies.blogspot.in/2011 ... ology.html
Some interesting Viet report details about Vietnam's KIlos,showing that China's Kilos are inferior to those supplied to Vietnam and therefore also inferior to those upgraded for India.
Some interesting facts

Vietnam Kilo 636 Submarine Technology More Advanced Than China Kilo 636 ?
07 Mei 2011

Kilo 636 submarine (photo :Navalshow)

Commentary Han Hoa Military Magazine in April, a leading source of military technology expert reputation in Moscow (Russia) said that under a bilateral agreement signed between Russia and Vietnam, in 2013, Vietnam will receive the first Kilo submarines, a year later as the second and the last one will be delivered in 2017.Compared with 636-MK submarines that use by the Chinese Navy, Kilo 636-MV submarines that Russia sold to Vietnam has many differences, of which the largest is about armament.

First, Vietnam's Kilo submarines will be fitted with land attack cruise missile 3M-14E latest type, with a range of 290 km. Missiles are not Russia's Defense Ministry approved the export to China. Apart from Vietnam, two other countries are exporting Russian 3M-14E missiles is India and Algeria.

Besides that, Kilo 636-MV submarine is equipped with radar-guided complex multi-effects post GE2-01 type. This has not been removed for export to China, the biggest advantage is minimizing the noise in the environment and help diversify measures directions.

Sonar system, Kilo 636-MK China submarines is equipped with sonar systems MGK 400E basic types. Meanwhile, the Kilo 636-MV submarines are installing sonar systems MGK 400E type improvements. Two sonar system has the same sounding range, but the sonar system type MGK 400E is equipped with improved signal processing speed and performance more digitized higher level.

Novator 3M-14E Club S missile type of land attack cruise missile, max range 290km (photo : Elforo)

On the periscope, both Kilo 636-MK submarine and Kilo 636-MV submarines are equipped with sounding optical system, but the periscope used for tasks Kilo 636-MV attack submarines are installation of additional equipment measuring distance from IR ray and TV monitoring systems, Meanwhile, Kilo 636MK submarines primarily use optical aiming device and no distance measurement beam from. That means fighting capability at night and the attack accuracy of the Kilo 636-MV submarine will be higher than Kilo 636-MK submarine.

Final difference is the air conditioning system that Kilo 636-MV submarines using more appropriate to the climate, tropical terrain.

Besides these differences, Kilo submarines that Russia sold to China and the Russian Kilo submarine exports to Vietnam have some similarities, such as the missile is equipped with 3M-54E anti-ship, and used batteries 476 E type of improvement, long life and meet the requirements of the water temperature in the Pacific Ocean.

Sources said that the production time of two submarines on each other for over 5 years, the technology equipped for Kilo 636-MV submarines is granted with more advanced than Kilo 636-MK. Considering the differences above, according to the magazine, although both are Kilo 636 M submarines, but the gap in technology between the Kilo 636-MV submarine and Kilo 636-MK submarine at least 10 years.

Novator 3M-54E Club S type of anti ship cruise missile, max range 220km (photo : Elforo)

About 6 Kilo submarines sold by Russia to Vietnam, long have information that Vietnam can use them to build two fleets. However, according to sources, six submarines of the Kilo 636-MV Vietnam will be arranged uniformly, forming a Russian fleet and the construction will be in charge of all media repository missiles at seaports and oxygen supply stations as part of the contents of bilateral agreements signed with Vietnam.

Related to the purchase price of Kilo 636-MVsubmarine, formerly reported that Vietnam Navy may have to buy Kilo 636-MV submarines with high prices. But according to sources, the price of Kilo 636-MV submarines that Russia sold to Vietnam is completely true and current prices Russia has started to manufacture first Kilo 636 submarines for Vietnam
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Philip »

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... ndia-12997
Russia's Eyes Massive Nuclear Submarine Deal with India
Zachary Keck

May 29, 2015
Despite Modi’s Make in India program, as well as the plan to build six indigenous nuclear-powered submarines, there have been indications that India may lease a second nuclear-powered submarine from Russia. During a trip to Delhi in December of last year, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that Russia would gladly supply India with more nuclear-powered submarines.

“If India decides to have more contracts to lease nuclear submarines, we are ready to supply,” Putin said at the time.

Later, Indian news outlets reported that negotiations are underway for a second Akula II SSN, which would enter into service with the Indian Navy in 2018.


Besides the nuclear submarines, India is also looking for foreign partners to help it build at least six stealth diesel-electric submarines. Competition for that contract is stiff.

As The National Interest noted back in January, Japan has expressed interest in helping India build Air-Independent Propulsion-equipped submarines. Just this week, the German Defense Minister was in Delhi lobbying for a German company to get the contract.

Other countries reportedly in the mix for that contract include France, Sweden Spain and, of course, Russia.
From the latest media reports this is a speculative "feel" on the issue of subs for the IN's accelerated sub acquisition plans.

Scorpene subs v.costly even without AIP.Therefore,stop with the 6 being built .What other Western alternatives?

Q.What best will replace our upgraded U-boats?
A.New German U-boats,easier to train,maintain,etc.

At least 6-8 upgraded Kilos will serve for another decade at least,so their replacement is not due immediately. The crying need is for more N-subs to counter the PLAN's N-sub/sub ambitions,now will touch almost 80 by 2020 (as I predicted over 5 years ago ).

Russia the best/only partner to collaborate with us on the planned SSNs/SSGNs ,apart from more Akulas if needed,as Putin promised.They perhaps would be willing to let go the P-75I requirement in order to clinch the far more lucrative SSN/SSGN sub deal. That could also be the IN's plan given the report about their media reports
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Singha »

rather than circus of new tender , why dont we just get DCN to create a stretched scorpene design with the rider it feature siemens fuel cells .... that would be a meaty lifecycle bone for the germans as well.
Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11242
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by Gagan »

Hai Ram,
These western subs are exorbitantly expensive !!!
Why?
More automation?
More technology?
Why?
SKrishna
BRFite
Posts: 151
Joined: 21 Jan 2008 19:18
Location: Bombay
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Post by SKrishna »

Mig 29K night takeoff. Exhilarating.
http://theworldairforce.tumblr.com/post ... k-launches
Locked