Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[Aditya G]

Hi, an update from Vishnu Som viz MiG-29K operational status.

[QUOTE=VishnuSom;2281460]Hi .. at the moment, there are ten pilots who are fully operational with 10 more who are in training in various advanced stages. The aircraft is fully operational in all configurations - single engine landings, I am told, has been tested.[/QUOTE]

Clearly raising a new unit is an arduous process - complicated as we are the first ones in the world to operate the type in squadron service. That explains the delay in raising the new squadron. Hopefully some concerns viz safety expressed here have been alleviated.

[Viv S]

CAG Report on Sindhukirti refit.

Medium Refit cum Upgradation of INS Sindhukirti

Salient excerpt posted -

(Note: ROE refers to M/s Rosoboronexport)
________________________________________________________________________-


2.1.10 Refit Execution:

Whether implementation of refit by the parties to the contract was as per the contractual obligations and was efficient and effective?

As per the contract, the refit was to be completed by January 2009. However, the duration of refit was extended four times up to 31 May 2015, due to delay of 11 to 19 months in supply of yard material by ROE, growth of work on hull and Main Line Cable (MLC) renewal, 16 months time taken in Govt approval for MLC renewal with consequent refit extension and problems arising in ROE scope of work and other refit related activities.

Our scrutiny showed poor refit execution and contract management, as discussed below:

2.1.10.1 Deficiency in engaging required manpower for refit

As per the envisaged/approved deployment of manpower planned by HSL, 3,81,000 man days were to be utilised in the refit activities for completion of refit by January 2009. The Contract Operating Authority i.e. ND (V) observed (January 2011) in their communication to HQENC (V) that the rate of deployment of manpower by HSL was very low and the focus of HSL was towards civil orders. We noticed (October 2014) that only 17 per cent of the envisaged manpower i.e. 64770 mandays (17 per cent of 3,81,000) was utilised by HSL as of January 2009 (due date of completion of refit as per contract). HSL replied (December 2014) that delay in supply of yard material by ROE and delay in finalisation of hull survey norms were reasons for low deployment of manpower during the initial three years of the MR. The reply of HSL contradicts the earlier admission (May 2012) to audit that large number of dedicated people were not employed as it was not cost effective for HSL in absence of assured future orders.

The reasons for not taking appropriate action to ensure adequate manpower deployment as well as not discussing this issue during the Annual Refit Conferences(ARC)/ Mid Year Refit Reviews (MYRR)5 were sought (December 2014) from WOT (V). WOT (V) replied that deployment of manpower is the prerogative of the contractor and they were neither equipped nor provided with manpower to check the deployment of manpower by the yard.

In its reply (May 2015), the Ministry reiterated that it was the shipyard’s responsibility to ensure that adequate mandays were deployed to achieve requirements.

The reply of the Ministry has to be seen in light of the fact that timely completion of the refit by optimal deployment of manpower was in the Navy’s operational interest and maritime security of the country. Thus, the Ministry could not be absolved of its responsibility to oversee that the deployment of manpower by the yard was optimal.

2.1.10.2 Inadequate protection of electric cables

As per Navy Order (NO) 84/02, electric cables are to be covered by asbestos cloth or other protective material during the hot work to be carried out on the submarine. Under the contract (October 2005), the contractor had to take requisite precautions as per the Navy Order ibid prior to commencement of hot work/ welding/burning during the period of vessel’s refit.

Our scrutiny of records revealed that the Russian team had carried out initial survey (November 2006) of Main Line Cables (MLCs) and stipulated (November 2006) that HSL had to protect the cables from thermal and mechanical damages during the refit work. However, five years after commencement of refit, specialists from M/s Arktika (OEM) noticed (December 2010) deterioration in the state of MLCs while undertaking repairs of the cables. A joint inspection report (February 2011) of Russians, HSL and WOT(V) brought out that main cables showed flexibility loss due to their long time exposure to ambient air of high temperatures and suffered mechanical/thermal damages caused at the time of dismounting of equipment and repairing hull structures by HSL during 2008-10. The report also mentioned that the cables were protected with asbestos only at an advanced stage of refit, i.e. in April/May 2009 - 40 months after commencement of refit. Russian specialists recommended 100 per cent renewal of MLCs. HSL proposed the cost for renewal of MLCs as ₹228.92 crore (November 2012). However, the cost was negotiated and renewal of MLCs was sanctioned at a cost of ₹ 191.80 crore out of the financial sanction of ₹212.22 crore accorded in August 2013.

We observed that though HSL proposed to ND (V) for an additional work for the renewal of MLC, neither HSL’s proposal nor ND(V)’s letter forwarding such proposal contained reasons for damage to MLCs. Even HQENC (V)’s recommendation of the proposal to IHQ MoD (N) for 100 per cent renewal of MLCs did not contain the fact that the cables were damaged.

We enquired (December 2014) about the reasons for not referring the causes for damage to MLCs to IHQ MoD (N) while seeking their renewal, WOT (V) replied (December 2014) that a mention about the Russian reports was made in the Statement of Case (SOC) forwarded by HSL.

The Ministry replied (May 2015) that asbestos covering was not a prerequisite prior to any hot work on the submarine, adding that cables were not required to be covered with asbestos cloth during dismounting of equipment. The Ministry also stated that the primary reason for change of MLCs was deterioration of cables, which pointed to the life of cables.

The reply of the Ministry is not acceptable because the contract stipulated that electric cables had to be covered by asbestos cloth or other protective material prior to the commencement of hot work on the submarine by HSL during the refit work. But, the main cables suffered mechanical/thermal damages caused at the time of dismounting of equipment and repairing hull structures by HSL during 2008-10 as brought out in the joint inspection report.

From the above, it is clearly evident that lack of compliance to NO 84/02 and instructions of OEM by HSL for protection of MLCs from thermal and mechanical damages during the refit work resulted in 100 per cent renewal of MLCs leading to an extra expenditure of ₹191.80 crore and consequent time overrun of 27 months. In addition, the facts related to non compliance of
regulations by HSL, were not highlighted by the Navy while forwarding the proposal to CFA for financial approval and extension of refit duration.

2.1.10.3 Poor Material Management for refit

(a) Contracts between HSL and ROE

HSL concluded (November 2003, September 2004 and October 2005) nine contracts with ROE (being Russian collaborator for the Refit) for undertaking the MR cum Upgradation of INS Sindhukirti. Out of these, one contract was concluded (October 2005) specifically for supply of materials such as steel plates, welding electrodes, pipes, cables, associated fittings and accessories, required for the MR and to be delivered between December 2006 to October 2008. However, the delivery under the contract was not completed timely by ROE, leading to delay in receipt of materials by 11 to 19 months which had a cascading effect on the commencement of major repairs in hull structure. Our examination (December 2014) of six contracts between HSL and ROE for supply of materials and services further revealed that Liquidated Damages (LD) clauses were not included in any of the contracts.

The Ministry replied (May 2015) that the issue was not relevant to the implementation of the contract between HSL and MoD. The reply of the Ministry is untenable because the scope of work for ROE was included in the MR contract between ND(V) and HSL and hence linked to completion of the MR. Therefore, the Ministry cannot abdicate its overall responsibility of ensuring the inclusion of standard contractual clauses in ROE contracts.

Thus, lack of LD clauses prevented remedial action against ROE despite delayed deliveries which had affected the overall progress of refit.

(b) Lack of due diligence while using indigenous electrodes in the MR

The contract for MR of Sindhukirti did not contain a provision for usage of indigenous electrodes and was formulated based on Russian methodology which catered for overall repair and refit of submarine as per Russian Technical Documents (RTDs) which do not cater for use of Indian equipment. However, when the electrodes contracted from ROE were substantially delayed by 19 months, HSL utilised the indigenous electrodes, UltratensalMH and Ultratherme-H, in place of 48N1 and 48N11 electrodes authorised under RTDs. The Russians raised (May 2009) objections to the use of indigenous electrodes. Eastern Naval Command intimated(June 2012) to IHQ, MoD(Navy) that the Russians expressed their inability to depute representatives for Sea Acceptance Trials (SATs) of the submarine, till the issue of electrodes was resolved. Further IHQ MoD (N) intimated to HSL (June 2013) that issue of use of indigenous electrodes has been a point of contention with the Russians in all Indo Russian Inter Governmental Committee (IRIGC) meetings, wherein in the 13th IRIGC meeting they have demanded a separate contract for certification of indigenous electrodes.

In response to our query (October 2014) about electrodes, ND (V) stated (November 2014) that IHQ MoD (N) had approved (March 1995) the usage of indigenous electrodes Ultratensal-MH and Ultratherme-H in lieu of imported electrodes 48N1 and 48N11. IHQ MoD (N) had also stated (June 2012) that indigenous electrodes were used for hull repairs on board EKM class submarines during previous refits at ND (V) and ND (MB) prior to MR at Russia.

We observed (November 2014) that non-consideration of the usage of indigenous material at the contract stage and resorting to their utilisation only after delay in supplies by ROE and without obtaining specific approval from ROE, indicated lack of due diligence by the Navy.

The Ministry admitted (May 2015) that objection of the Russians created hurdles in progress of refit.

Resultantly, utilisation of indigenous yard materials, despite past knowledge and experience of their use in refits of other EKM submarines, could not be sufficiently ensured in the refit effort.

[Viv S]

According to this article, the Navy's interest is in the Yasen class rather than another Akula II, with the Russians apparently unwilling to oblige on the former. Would be worth calling London to see if they have any spare capacity in the Astute program.

All eyes on PM Narendra Modi after nuclear submarine plan with Russia flounders

NEW DELHI: Indian plans to lease a cutting edge nuclear attack submarine that would assist in technical knowhow for an indigenous project have run aground with Russia seen to be backing out on the deal. Senior officials in Delhi and Moscow have told ET that plans to lease a Yasen class attack submarine - two of which are in service with the Russian Navy - are being reconsidered after fairly advanced talks on the project.

India was keen on acquitting on lease the latest Russian submarine under a plan that would result in a new boat being constructed from scratch, giving planners and designers in the Navy here a rare peek into the building process of one of the most complex military systems in the world.

By being involved in the process from the beginning, India would have gained expertise for an indigenous project to produce six nuclear powered attack submarines (SSNs) for the Navy under a Rs 100000 crore project that was cleared by the Modi government in February. Talks were at an advanced stage with National Security Advisor Ajit Doval too said to be in the picture.

However, ET has learnt that Russia is reconsidering and has now offered India one of its older Akula class submarines on lease, similar to the Chakra II that is currently in service with the Indian Navy on lease. "The plan now is to lease an attack submarine that is in service with the Russian Navy. This submarine would be deeply modernized to meet Indian requirements," an official familiar with the developments told ET.

This submarine would be modernized at a shipyard in Severodvinsk, the Russian city where the INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier was refitted as well.

While the Indian Navy has been taken aback with the development, efforts are still on to rescue the Yasen project, with planners said to be against the lease of yet another, older generation nuclear submarine from Russia. "We are hoping for a resolution and there is a possibility that this (the refusal) is a negotiating tactic. We have not closed hopes on the project yet," an Indian official told ET.

The circumstances behind the blockage are unclear, though sources point that the funding required to build a new Yasen class submarine from scratch could be an issue as it mean a considerable contribution by the Indian side. Another issue could be Moscow's observations that Indian planners have been in talks with French and US submarine builders also for possible collaboration on the SSN project for the Navy.

Clarity is expected on the matter during PM Narendra Modi's Moscow visit this week where the lease plan, as well as other military projects are to be discussed in detail. Besides the nuclear submarine, Russia is also keen on selling India two of its advanced Kilo class submarines that are under construction in St Petersburg.

[Philip]

We have barely been able to absorb operating a single Akula-2 sub,which incidentally is good enough to evade detection for a couple of months operating off the US coastline recently,and now want a Yasen class sub! I am reminded of the late navy chief,legendary Adm. Ronnie Pereira ,who when offered a Soviet N-sub politely refused ,saying that we needed to first build and operate an advanced conventional sub before attempting to operate an N-sub. "Walk before you can run" was the adage. That led to the acquisition of the German HDW U-209/1500 subs,tailor made for Indian requirements.

]A second Akula-2,more advanced than the Chakra,with some Yasen class inputs would be more sensible.There would be commonality in training,spares,weaponry and other eqpt. Later N-subs,the 6 SSNs to be built in India could leverage on selected Yasen class tech. We already about to operate 3 conventional lines (Scorpenes,Kilos and U-boats),2 N-sub types,Arihant SSBN class and Akula-2 SSGN class,adding another N-sub type would pose a massive support operation,not to mention the cost of a Yasen class SSGN,which is at least $1.5B-$2B.Secondly,which major nuclear navy will give us its very best? Will the US give us either the Virginia or Seawolf class? No! Will the Brits their latest Astute class? No. The French don't have anything comparable to these three types.In the recent exercises,our venerable Kilo "killed" a USN los Angeles class SSN.

The IN is to be lauded for its ambitions,but must not "bite off more than it can chew". Purely from the cost angle,a Yasen SSGN is beyond our means.There are other very pressing issues like the 120+ ASW helos needed across the fleet,extra P-8Is,more med-ASW patrol aircraft,not to mention adding more conventional SSK subs to the fleet.Numbers do matter. Yet again,who are our principal enemies? China and Pak.We have no "beef" with the West or US or US allies in Asia and surely even theoretically against any Western interference,improved Akula-2s,ATVs,Scorpenes,Kilos and U-boats are quite sufficient to defend our territorial and maritime interests.

The decision to also buy/build 4 more Talwars as reported must be lauded.As reported,these ships pack a huge punch for their size,very cost-effective. This will bring the number of Talwar FFGs to 10,and along with 10 Shivaliks (7 being built) and 10 Delhi+ DDGs (4 P-15Bs being built),will give the surface fleet a very healthy disposition and enough escorts for our future CBGs.

That the first desi FFG,INS Godavari is to be decommissioned shortly,is a matter of great pride and sadness. Being a landmark warship in independent India's naval history,he should be preserved as a naval museum at one of our many ports/bases. Let her not suffer the fate of the Vikrant.

[Philip]

A follow on to the abobe post,with the regional sub aspirations in perspective.

http://www.voanews.com/content/asian-mi ... 11635.html

Asian Militaries Embrace Submarines Amid South China Sea Competition

FILE - Sailors look at a model of a submarine at an exhibition as part of the 50th anniversary celebrations of the establishment of the 125 Naval Transport Brigade, also known as the No Number Naval Shipsm, in Vietnam's northern port city of Hai Phong, Oc
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Ron Corben
December 21, 2015 4:12 AM
BANGKOK—
Asia’s spending on military hardware is quickening at a time of increasing focus over maritime territorial disputes in the South and East China Seas, as well as growing concern over China’s expanding military.

Earlier this year London-based Strategic Defense Intelligence (DSI) reported that Asia led the world in rising defense spending, and countries’ spending on submarines was at the top of the list.

DSI analysts say the Asian submarine market is currently worth just over $7 billion, but will rise to $11 billion by 2025. That could mean it surpasses Europe as the world’s second largest submarine market, behind the United States.

SDI analyst Sravan Kumar Gorantala said China, India, Australia and South Korea are the key buyers of submarines amid fears of potential maritime conflicts and threats in the South China Sea, as well as the Pacific and Indian Oceans.

Gorantala said China’s growing assertiveness in disputes over the South China Sea and modernization of China’s submarine fleet has led to demand for submarines by India, Japan, Taiwan, Australia and Vietnam.

Japan has moved to secure foreign arms sales, largely for its Soryu-class submarines. Many countries with territorial disputes in the waters of East and South China Seas have also been securing spy planes.

In emailed comments to VOA, Gorantala said competition between China, Vietnam, the Philippines and Malaysia in claiming rights over natural resources including oil and gas in the South China Sea is spurring demand.

Thailand is purchasing three diesel electric submarines from China to match naval capabilities with Vietnam. In 2009 Vietnam took possession of three Russian-built Kilo-attack submarines with three more on order as part of a $2.6 billion deal.

The Philippines and Indonesia have also moved to purchase the Russian-made Kilo class submarines amid China’s increasing assertiveness.

The United States remains the largest market for submarines, with an expected cumulative spending of $102 billion over the next decade.

South China Sea tensions modernize navies

China has long claimed almost all of the South China Sea as its own, but in recent years has accelerated an island building program that many worry is militarizing a region crucial for international shipping. Beijing now has seven man-made islands on reefs in the Spratly Islands, including construction of a 3,000 meter airstrip at one site.

Carl Thayer, a defense analyst at Australia’s University of New South Wales, said Vietnam’s strategy in dealing with potential conflict is to “try to keep China’s strike forces as far away from the Vietnamese coast as possible.”

Thayer said conflicts over the South China Sea have led to “the unprecedented modernization of Vietnam's naval and air forces.”

Since 2008, the Vietnamese navy has taken delivery of one BPS-500 corvette and two Gepard 3.9-class guided missile stealth frigates armed with 3M24 Uran anti-ship missiles.

The Kilo-class conventional submarines are armed with anti-ship and land attack cruise missiles, and supported by four guided missile corvettes, five light frigates and six Fast Attack Craft armed with anti-ship missiles.

“[Vietnam] is not looking at a conventional war or a theater war with China, they are looking at an eruption of conflict at much lower level, but trying to position themselves to be able to deter China and really inflict some damage,” Thayer said.

Zhang Baohui, a political science professor at Hong Kong’s Lingnan University, in emailed comments said the potential for conflict in the South China Sea depended on “how China may react to future U.S. ‘freedom of navigation patrols’ entering Chinese claimed territorial waters surrounding the shoals and reefs.”

In recent months U.S. ships and planes have traveled inside the 22-kilometer offshore economic exclusion zone that China claims its man-made islands possess. Washington and other regional countries do not recognize Beijing’s claims, and say China’s efforts are hindering commercial shipping and fishing operations.

Zhang Baohui said such actions reflect on China’s “deterrence credibility.”

“At a certain point they may be compelled to take some concrete measures to respond to U.S. ships sailing through. They could be the start of an unintended escalation,” Zhang said.

A ‘weapon for the weak against the strong’

Zhang said there is a “submarine race in the region” that marked “a good asymmetric response to power imbalances so small countries, ranging from Vietnam to Australia, will continue to improve their submarine capabilities to hedge against a rising China.”

Collin Koh, an associate research fellow at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies (RSIS), said the buildup of submarines is geared “to provide a weapon for the weak against the strong.”

Koh told VOA that submarines “do constitute one of the major focus areas of capability build up.” Submarines entering service “in the near future will be larger than those used to be operated in the region, and of course, better armed and equipped.”

But Koh said then navies need to overcome several challenges including financial, technical, logistics and manpower issues of submarine operations.

“Not all of these countries that purchase submarines necessarily master the art of underwater warfare,” he said.

New alliances

Vietnam has turned to India in its training of 500 submariners at an advanced undersea warfare school since taking possession of three Russian built Kilo attack submarines.

Australian University of New South Wales’ Thayer said the issue for Vietnam is a lack of combat experience and a lack of effective training where you have opposing forces.

“Now at least Vietnam will be able to [do] one thing – it can send the Kilo [submarines] out there and go hunting themselves – and learn how to find and locate submarines,” he said.

But Thayer said Vietnam needs to embrace programs involving friendly countries, something it has so far been reluctant to do.

Vietnam’s strategy is to build up “the capability to make China think twice about that sort of [threatening] behavior,” he said.

[Paul]

That the first desi FFG,INS Godavari is to be decommissioned shortly,is a matter of great pride and sadness. Being a landmark warship in independent India's naval history,he should be preserved as a naval museum at one of our many ports/bases. Let her not suffer the fate of the Vikrant.

I am getting on in the years, still remember the news report on the commissioning of this war horse 33+ years ago

he decision to also buy/build 4 more Talwars as reported must be lauded.

Is this confirmed? I do not remember seeing any press release on this

[Viv S]

We have barely been able to absorb operating a single Akula-2 sub,which incidentally is good enough to evade detection for a couple of months operating off the US coastline recently,and now want a Yasen class sub! am reminded of the late navy chief,legendary Adm. Ronnie Pereira ,who when offered a Soviet N-sub politely refused ,saying that we needed to first build and operate an advanced conventional sub before attempting to operate an N-sub. "Walk before you can run" was the adage. That led to the acquisition of the German HDW U-209/1500 subs,tailor made for Indian requirements.

Astounded by our gall huh? Yasen too advanced for simple folk still 'learning to walk'?

What's so great about loitering off the US coastline? The Akula II is in the same broad category as the US Navy's improved LA class, against which our Kilo EKMs can more than hold their own. Why the hell should the Indian Navy be 'content' with just another Akula?

A second Akula-2,more advanced than the Chakra,with some Yasen class inputs would be more sensible.There would be commonality in training,spares,weaponry and other eqpt. Later N-subs,the 6 SSNs to be built in India could leverage on selected Yasen class tech. We already about to operate 3 conventional lines (Scorpenes,Kilos and U-boats),2 N-sub types,Arihant SSBN class and Akula-2 SSGN class,adding another N-sub type would pose a massive support operation,not to mention the cost of a Yasen class SSGN,which is at least $1.5B-$2B.Secondly,which major nuclear navy will give us its very best? Will the US give us either the Virginia or Seawolf class? No! Will the Brits their latest Astute class? No. The French don't have anything comparable to these three types.In the recent exercises,our venerable Kilo "killed" a USN los Angeles class SSN.

The Seawolf is long out of production. Virginia-class is probably export-restricted - the shipyard has enough business to keep going till 2032. As for the Astute & Barracuda, UK/France might be willing to match the Russian lease offer.

However, I doubt most BRFites would be outraged at our audacity if we were to make a formal request for any of the above (incl. the Virginia).

The decision to also buy/build 4 more Talwars as reported must be lauded[/b].As reported,these ships pack a huge punch for their size,very cost-effective. This will bring the number of Talwar FFGs to 10,and along with 10 Shivaliks (7 being built) and 10 Delhi+ DDGs (4 P-15Bs being built),will give the surface fleet a very healthy disposition and enough escorts for our future CBGs.

And also give a further impetus to the 'Make-in-India' program.

[Viv S]

Is this confirmed? I do not remember seeing any press release on this

India, Russia likely to sign deal for 4 stealth frigates

According to official sources, India is likely to sign a multi-billion dollar deal for four improved Krivak or Talwar class stealth frigates with Russia — expected to cost upwards of USD 3 billion — during the PM’s visit.

Like the earlier ships, these will also be built by Yantar shipyard but will additionally involve an Indian partner in line with the government’s ‘Make in India’ push. Officials said Pipavav shipyard owned by Anil Ambani’s Reliance group is likely to be the Indian partner in the deal.

[Philip]

Updated: December 22, 2015
India, Russia likely to sign deal for 4 stealth frigates
http://www.thehindu.com/

India, Russia likely to sign deal for 4 stealth frigates
Dinakar Peri

The Hindu
The purchase of Talwar class stealth frigates is expected to cost upwards of USD 3 billion. - File Photo: Vivek Bendre

After a long hiatus, Russia is once again set to emerge as India’s top military hardware supplier with a slew of big ticket defence deals set to be announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit starting on Thursday. Collectively, the defence deals to be announced during Modi’s visit would be worth upwards of $10 billion.

According to official sources, India is likely to sign a multi-billion dollar deal for four improved Krivak or Talwar class stealth frigates with Russia — expected to cost upwards of USD 3 billion — during the PM’s visit. This will be in addition to the two helicopter deals expected to be signed and the announcement on purchase of five S-400 Triumf air defence systems. With these deals Russia is likely to emerge once again as the top supplier of military hardware to India which in the last few years was taken over by the U.S.

India had earlier procured six frigates of the same class in two different batches and has been very pleased with the performance of the 4,000 tonne state of the art frigates which pack a lot of firepower in comparison to their size.

Like the earlier ships, these will also be built by Yantar shipyard but will additionally involve an Indian partner in line with the government’s ‘Make in India’ push. Officials said Pipavav shipyard owned by Anil Ambani’s Reliance group is likely to be the Indian partner in the deal. Incidentally Russian Navy too has recently ordered these ships for its Baltic fleet. Both sides have been in discussions for the additional frigates for some time but the deal was delayed as India insisted on building it through the ‘Make in India’ route. The deal was also partly delayed due to the engine issue. The engines are built by Zorya Nashproekt of Ukraine and after the crisis in Crimea, Ukraine has refused to supply engines to Russia. However, officials said the issue has been sorted and Ukraine has no reservations in supplying engines to India.
CEO team
The 18-member Indian CEO delegation accompanying Prime Minister Narendra Modi to Russia includes four company heads from defence companies.

These include Anil Ambani, Chairman of Reliance group; Baba Kalyani, Chairman and MD of Bahart Forge; Sukaran Singh, CEO of Tata Advanced Systems; and Suvarna Raju, Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Reliance is likely to partner Russian helicopters to build Kamov-226T utility helicopters in India and is also a contender for the ship project. Tata is in advanced stage of talks with Sukhoi to set up a Joint Venture to manufacture spares for Sukhoi fighters in India.

[Philip]

Media reports say that the IN doesn't want another Akula but a Yasen! Russians unwilling. We may end up with nothing.

[Aditya G]

There are two known 'options' for the second akula:

- irbis: never completed

- kashalot: an older vintage than nerpa (chakra) and AFAIK was held in reserve

I doubt rfn will pull out an active akula as they need the boats to meet their current tasking levels.

That probably explains why we asked for the yasen. I believe there is a lot of commonality with the akula as well.

[JTull]

With the approval of second line of 6 attack n-subs, India is looking for tech that is next gen to the Chakra. Perhaps Russia is not so keen on giving it's latest tech.

[member_22539]

^Like another article mentioned (words from a Govt official), this is all negotiation tactics. Russians want their usual (extra) pound of flesh. They are giving something no one else would give and they are gonna make us pay.

[kit]

With the approval of second line of 6 attack n-subs, India is looking for tech that is next gen to the Chakra. Perhaps Russia is not so keen on giving it's latest tech.

not so sure .. they use the money to build a next generation ..just look at their willingness to part with their latest engine tech to the chinese

[Philip]

The hulls of the Akula,Yasen,.Borei are very similar.Several unfinished Soviet era N-sub hulls were used in the new Yasen and Borei subs.It's what is inside,sensors,sonars,machinery eqpt.reactor,combat systems,weaponry,that matters. These unfinished sub hulls will last 50 years.

Those who "protest too much" against the Russians giving us a Yasen,should know that for one,the number of Yasen's in the RuN is small,sev. under construction,. In fact an improved version is being built.Naturally,first priority will be to construct the planned number of subs for the Ru fleet,reports say approx. 8-10. We therefore cannot expect an immediate such sub unless there is space available in the Ru N-sub yards,which from all reports are full with orders for Borei and Yasen classes,plus the new secret sub designs just unveiled. When we are facing severe problems in maintaining cutting edge weapon systems,esp. some systems from Russia,like MKIs,etc.,having one Akula-2 and adding another ultra-sophisticated type different N-reactor, is certainly questionable,apart from the huge cost factor. Surely it would be more prudent to acquire another Akula-2 with Yasen class inputs? What is unreasonable with that? Secondly,and of this we have scant info,what is the status of our new N-sub base/bases and supporting facilities and infrastructure?

Japan ,a close US mil ally (unlike India and Russia) and used to operating front line US eqpt wanted F-22 Raptors,did the US oblige? No!

If the IN wants another 4 Talwar class FFGs to add to the 6 already in service (and these improved Krivaks ,hull the same,first came into service 40 yrs ago!),why can't it accept another improved Akula-2 with some Yasen features?

Russia is the only nation that has offered and provided us with N-subs. Our SSBN programme has recd. huge support from it,so illusions about obtaining N-subs from the West are academic. But there is another aspect that the IN should clearly look into if such reported Russian reticence is accurate.In recent times the IN has been increasing its naval exercises with the US and its mil allies in Asia. The Russians would be very wary of providing the IN with its very latest bleeding edge N-sub tech as there could be a distinct possibility of the US obtaining their secrets from IN subs covertly and clandestinely,through espionage. Russia would also like to know to what level of cooperation there would be between the IN and USN/allies in any Asian crisis,esp. when it may also involve Russia.

PS:Pardon posting this here,but the IN is to train the Viet navy on these 6 new advanced Kilo 636s,which cost just $2B for the lot!These VN Kilos will also be equipped with Klub family of missiles and the latest torpedoes.
[/b]

Vietnam to Get Fifth Kilo Submarine from Russia in Early 2016
Another one of Hanoi’s Kilo-class subs is expected to arrive soon.

By Prashanth Parameswaran
December 22, 2015

The fifth of the six Kilo-class submarines that Vietnam bought from Russia left a Danish port on Sunday heading for Vietnam, local media outlets reported December 21.

According to Thanh Nien News, the HQ-186, delivered by Dutch-registered cargo ship Rolldock Star, left from Russia’s St. Petersburg and arrived at the Port of Skagen in northern Denmark on December 19. It is scheduled to arrive in Singapore on January 29, 2016 before arriving in Vietnam, with the journey taking one and a half months.

As I reported for The Diplomat earlier this year, the HQ-186 had undergone a trial run in the Baltic Sea on June 8 and was expected to arrive in early 2016. The fourth submarine, codenamed HQ-185 Da Nang, had arrived at Cam Ranh Port back in July (See: “Vietnam Gets Fourth Submarine From Russia Amid South China Sea Tensions”).

The submarines are part of a deal Vietnam reached with Russia’s Admiralty Shipyards for six Project 636 Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines for $2 billion back in 2009. Under the agreement, signed during Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung’s visit to Moscow that year, Russia agreed to provide the submarines, train Vietnamese crews, and supply necessary spare parts.

The latest delivery comes amidst simmering disputes in the South China Sea, where both Vietnam and China are claimants alongside the Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Taiwan. Just last week, Vietnam protested China’s building of a filling station and schools on Woody Island, part of the Paracel Islands which Beijing seized from Hanoi back in 1974. Separately, Reuters reported last week that Vietnamese officials had said that the first Kilo-class submarine had begun patrolling the South China Seam, which it billed the first confirmation of their involvement there.

As I had reported earlier, the Kilo-class submarines are some considered to be one of the quietest diesel submarines in the world, and are designed for anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface-ship warfare. Several analysts, including Carlyle Thayer at The Diplomat, have explored how Vietnam People’s Navy (VPN) may use them to counter Chinese naval capabilities in the South China Sea.

[sudeepj]

I think this gnashing of teeth because country XYZ refused to sell us something we want must stop. If country XYZ wants us to sell them the Taj Mahal, will we sell it? Cutting edge technology is a modern day Taj.. Why would any country part with it (Unless they have something else that is better)? And that too when India wants to run an 'independent' foreign policy, i.e. no alliances! At least the Paks lied to get into all kinds of alliances and extracted tens of billions of dollars worth of aid/weapons.. Aaj Samosa, kal Bosa (have a samosa today, the kiss comes tomorrow). But we want to be Raja Ram/Harishchandra..

If you want to wage a righteous war like Raja Ram, build your own capability. Else be prepared to get permission from the super powers before the first shot is fired.

[ShauryaT]

Philip: What you say is largely correct but it is not like Russia is a white knight. It plays by hard geo-political realities and so should we. IMO, we should negotiate hard with Russia on technology acquisition using the US as a leverage. Realistically, even I do not see any other option but build our SSN using Russian "help". The acquisition of the next SSN from Russian should be seen in that context of what the IN wants our next SSN to be like. BTW: Project Varsha is a few years out, probably early part of next decade.

[Viv S]

Those who "protest too much" against the Russians giving us a Yasen,should know that for one,the number of Yasen's in the RuN is small,sev. under construction,. In fact an improved version is being built.Naturally,first priority will be to construct the planned number of subs for the Ru fleet,reports say approx. 8-10. We therefore cannot expect an immediate such sub unless there is space available in the Ru N-sub yards,which from all reports are full with orders for Borei and Yasen classes,plus the new secret sub designs just unveiled. When we are facing severe problems in maintaining cutting edge weapon systems,esp. some systems from Russia,like MKIs,etc.,having one Akula-2 and adding another ultra-sophisticated type different N-reactor, is certainly questionable,apart from the huge cost factor. Surely it would be more prudent to acquire another Akula-2 with Yasen class inputs? What is unreasonable with that? Secondly,and of this we have scant info,what is the status of our new N-sub base/bases and supporting facilities and infrastructure?

Oh please! Lets not pretend this is about being denied technology. Nobody has any issues with Russia refusing to sell the Yasen - its their top-of-the-line sub and they're well within their rights to withhold exports.

This is about the cheap line being peddled that India is unfit to operate Yasens ('walk before you run', 'don't bite off more than you can chew'), and barely able to operate the Akula. Please save it for russiadefence.net.

[NRao]

Any nuclear sub from the Russians is a filler for the IN. I think the Russians are doing their best to keep the line humming by selling a lower tech sub, while the Indians are trying to get better techs for the filler. Both behaving rather predictably.

But, it is a good development. It does make for great drama and should keep some in the southern hemisphere employed for some more time.

[Aditya G]

INS Godavari (F20) will be retired today - first of the Project 16 ships.

That leaves IN with 14 frigates.

[Cosmo_R]

Like the earlier ships, these will also be built by Yantar shipyard but will additionally involve an Indian partner in line with the government’s ‘Make in India’ push. Officials said Pipavav shipyard owned by Anil Ambani’s Reliance group is likely to be the Indian partner in the deal.

If they are going to be built by Yantar, what is the Indian 'partner' going to do?

[NRao]

From the Paki thread:

Kartikji understood the bolter issue. However all naval aircraft should have a fuel dump option
So in an emergency situation where fuel and munitions are dumped, a bolter on one engine should be able to do it.
The f18 with a lower t/w ratio than a '29 manages it. Somebody has to auctually try it. The russians are not interested in trying same out.
Some guru with TW / velocity /lift calculations. Beyond my league.

Until recently the MiG-29K was not certified.

The IN is the first user of this plane - brand new stuff, IN is writing the path-to-follow for the future users of this plane.

[Will]

Russia is going to play hardball and tie a lot to the Indian decision on the PAK-FA/FGFA. They are desperate for funding for that now that their economy is in shambles with low oil prices and sanctions.

If India plays its cards right it will get the tech it wants.... nuclear submarines and all. We must remember that for all its financial clout Russia still is loath to give the Chinese its best. Russia needs India as much as India needs Russia.

[Philip]

The IN is beset with so many problems operating its subs of which less (say some informed sources) than 6 are really operational and you want them to acquire a Yasen right now,when only one Akula-2 is in service,that too for only a few years. There are also very few Yasens in service,with an improed version in the works and they also cost a bomb.The Russian viewpoint is that the IN will not be able to absorb the high tech at the moment. They should know well since they've been involved with both the ATV programme and the Akula-2 lease.Read the Indo-Russian td. report in the strat forum.

Read my posts in depth instead of flying off the handle.One should be prudent and not "bite off more than one can chew".The offer on hand is for another Akula-2 with improved features including Yasen tech. One needs to be practical and not jingoistic.Why then is the IN acquiring more Talwars,based upon a '60s design (hull) and not demand a new class of FFG/DDG?
The 6 SSNs to be built in India in the future could absorb Yasen tech,but the Yasen is even larger than an Akula and would be prohibitively costly.

I repeat the prudence of Adm. Pereira who when offered a Soviet N-sub preferred instead to choose a western (German) conventional sub first and get the tech to build the same in India. Unfortunately,one cannot explain some very interesting details about that acquisition given first person to me. Incidentally,it took us 8 years to build just 2 of these U-boats! And how long has been the delay in the Scorpene project? 4-5 years! So those jingos who fondly imagine that the IN is the cats whiskers when it comes to operating the world's latest N-subs should take a reality check.Right now we operate just 1 N-sub,the Akula,with the Arihant yet to be commissioned.

[VKumar]

My observation has been constant over the many decades - the only thing that saves us is that our enemies are even more incompetent and corrupt than us.

[Philip]

Next 2 P-28s to have better capability.Relief to many on BRF!
GRSE submarine-killers to add teeth to Navy fleet

23rd Dec.2015
Summary: The next two ships, INS Kiltan and INS Kavaratti, will be more advanced. It was then made by SAIL plants and distributed to shipyards, including the one in Kochi where INS Vikrant is being built. "INS Kadmatt, the second ASW corvette of this class, will be commissioned soon and inducted in the eastern fleet. The need to develop high-grade steel for warships rose after a deal with Russia for supply for the indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, fell through. The two ships will have more advanced features and modern armaments, making them more potent than the first two vessels," a senior Navy officer said.

KOLKATA: The last two Kamorta-class Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) corvettes being built by Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) Ltd would be potent platforms that would help the Navy further develop its capabilities in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR), said Vice-Admiral Satish Soni, flag officer commanding-in-chief, Eastern Naval Command."INS Kadmatt, the second ASW corvette of this class, will be commissioned soon and inducted in the eastern fleet. This is a state-of-the-art ship, on a par with the best in the world. The next two ships, INS Kiltan and INS Kavaratti, will be more advanced.

The best part about these ships is that they have over 90% indigenous content. The Navy will take over greater responsibilities in the IOR. Whether it is aid to friendly nations or patrolling their Exclusive Economic Zones, the Navy will continue to play an important role in the region," Vice-Admiral Soni told TOI.Lauding GRSE, the FOC-in-C pointed out how the Kolkata facility will build three advanced stealth frigates under the Navy's Project 17A.

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 290109.cms

[Philip]

More details about the PM's Moscow visit. Extra Kilos,Talwars,and maybe another N-sub,apart from other aforementioned items like the Triumph ABM system.

Indian garland

“This visit promises to be the most productive in the last decade. We are talking here about the work on deepening of the privileged strategic partnership between the two countries in the most sensitive fields – in particular, the nuclear sector and the military-technical sphere. The manifestations of ‘personal chemistry’ between these two leaders, as well as preparations for the signing of an agreement, should once and for all refute the recently circulating thesis – that India has allegedly been moving further away from Russia, and reorienting itself towards the United States,” Alexander Kadakin, the Russian Ambassador to India, told Kommersant, while explaining the significance of the upcoming meeting.

One of the main sensations is expected to be Narendra Modi’s announcement of India’s readiness to allocate land in the south Indian state of Andhra Pradesh for construction of a new, Russian-designed nuclear power plant, comprising six power units.

Another outcome of the summit should be the signing of a technical agreement on construction of the 5th and 6th power units at Kudankulam NPP. This will eventually increase the number of Russian nuclear reactors operating in India to 12. In addition, of special importance to Delhi, is the possibility of organizing joint production with Russia of fuel for its nuclear power plants.

In the air, at sea, and on the land

Breakthrough agreements are also expected in another traditionally priority area of bilateral cooperation between the two countries; the military-technical sphere. The total package of contracts to be signed is estimated at over $7 billion. On the eve of Prime Minister Modi’s trip to Moscow, the Defence Acquisitions Committee of the Indian government has approved the allocation of funds for the purchase of Russian S-400 ‘Triumph’ air-defence missile systems (ADMS). India may buy at least five batteries of the S-400s, becoming the second foreign customer of these systems after China.

However, Kommersant’s source in one of the enterprises of the Russian military-industrial sector said that negotiations on the S-400s will not be easy – the Russian asking price for the five batteries of S-400s, of approximately $2.5 billion, does not suit India. “Ultimately, everything will depend on the negotiations between the two heads of state,” Kommersant’s source noted.

They will also discuss with India a purchase agreement for two diesel-electric submarines of the Project 636 – the ‘Varshavyanka’ class, three frigates of Project 11356, and 48 Mi-17V5 military transport helicopters. “Negotiations are already underway on the purchase of 150 BMP-2K armoured vehicles, as well as the modernization of Indian Air Force’s fleet of IL-78s and IL-76s,” Kommersant learned from it source in the military-technical cooperation sphere. “We are also waiting for the decision on leasing of a second Project 971 nuclear submarine.”

Another widely discussed topic was the preparations for signing of an intergovernmental agreement on joint production in India of 200 multi-role Ka-226T helicopters.


http://in.rbth.com/economics/cooperatio ... mph_553471

[Viv S]

The IN is beset with so many problems operating its subs of which less (say some informed sources) than 6 are really operational and you want them to acquire a Yasen right now,when only one Akula-2 is in service,that too for only a few years. There are also very few Yasens in service,with an improed version in the works and they also cost a bomb.The Russian viewpoint is that the IN will not be able to absorb the high tech at the moment. They should know well since they've been involved with both the ATV programme and the Akula-2 lease. Read the Indo-Russian td. report in the strat forum.

Then this 'Russian view', one which you clearly share, is utter and total garbage. The Indian Navy has been 'involved' with Akula operations and probably knows a thing or two as well. And while questions may be raised about the capability of domestic shipyards to manufacture a Yasen class SSN within time/budget, its nothing short of asinine to question the IN's capability of operating the type.

Read my posts in depth instead of flying off the handle.One should be prudent and not "bite off more than one can chew".The offer on hand is for another Akula-2 with improved features including Yasen tech. One needs to be practical and not jingoistic.Why then is the IN acquiring more Talwars,based upon a '60s design (hull) and not demand a new class of FFG/DDG?

Perhaps you ought to start by writing post with 'depth'. Not shallow nonsense like this -

We have barely been able to absorb operating a single Akula-2 sub and now want a Yasen class sub!

The 6 SSNs to be built in India in the future could absorb Yasen tech,but the Yasen is even larger than an Akula and would be prohibitively costly.

Don't conflate the lease of the Yasen sub with the SSN building program. The IN isn't asking for ToT for the Yasen. It isn't even asking for a purchase. Just a simple lease. If its not available, for whatever reason, so be it. But offering up this excuse of it being too advanced for the Indian Navy, is inviting derision.

[RKumar]

My gut feeling ...

- India dont want but Rus want (No deal)
* two diesel-electric submarines of the Project 636 – the ‘Varshavyanka’ class
* three frigates of Project 11356
* PAK-FA

- India want but Rus dont want (No deal)
leasing of a second nuclear submarine.

- should sign following deals or agree in principle
* 48 Mi-17V5 military transport helicopters.
* purchase of 150 BMP-2K armoured vehicles
* modernization of Indian Air Force’s fleet of IL-78s, IL-76s and Mi-26
* Super 30 MKI,
* LUH

[RKumar]

I would like to have
- Partnership on PAK-DA (Bomber - offensive)
- Bigger leasing/buy of a second nuclear submarine. (offensive)
- modernization of Indian Air Force’s fleet of IL-78s, IL-76s and Mi-26 (Power projection and insertion)
- Super 30 MKI (Offensive)

Leave others equipment to DRDO or local industry to mfg

[Mayuresh]

INS Godavari (F20) will be retired today - first of the Project 16 ships.

That leaves IN with 14 frigates.

Hope they sell/gift the ship to a friendly country or a country with which we need to build relationships, instead of sinking it for target practice or scrapping it for metal. It has been in service for 32 years, I reckon the hull still has another 10-15 years left in it

[Philip]

Garbage.yes everything Russian is garbage to the anti-Ru pro Yanqui jingos.Prudence prevents me from discussing the viewpoints of those actively involvrd in the
iN's uw affairs.The feeling is walk before u run.

[Singha]

imo a few more kilos are almost certain looking at their vs our build rate on the scorpenes and the lack of any upg plans for the U209. the P75I is not even in properly defined paper file yet.

[NRao]

"Garbage" is relative.

High temperature metal and the like is not garbage. But a 2005 MKI could be one. As great a plane as it is, no two ways.

Bhai loog, India bhi tho aage bash gayi hai. Expectations should be part of the the equation, as BB said.

[Viv S]

Garbage.yes everything Russian is garbage to the anti-Ru pro Yanqui jingos.Prudence prevents me from discussing the viewpoints of those actively involvrd in the
iN's uw affairs.The feeling is walk before u run.

I see. So your posts questioning the Indian Navy's competence are perfectly reasonable, and only an 'anti-Ru pro Yanqui jingo' could possible take offence at that.

[Karan M]

More Russian than the Russian's themselves. Heck, even a paid rep wouldn't write the kind of garbage one gent comes up with to push the Russian POV over Indian interests, irrespective of how flawed their equipment is in terms of after sales support, and India has to sit and push them to fix their rubbish.

[ShauryaT]

Philip: Clarify one thing please. In your view, is the reservation about ability to manage a Yasen class about IN's operational capability limitations or about production/design via inputs to the SSN project? If the former, care to elaborate?

[Surya]

Philip: Clarify one thing please. In your view, is the reservation about ability to manage a Yasen class about IN's operational capability limitations or about production/design via inputs to the SSN project? If the former, care to elaborate?

why why why??



seriously??

[Singha]

stop it boys! class is in session and no more throwing chalks and paper planes.

[Kartik]

Indian Navy decommissions first Godavari class frigate