Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 23 Dec 2015 23:07

If looks could tell then Godavari looks fit for service.

They will strip off a lot of equipment off the ship. The Barak is already gone to Vikramaditya. The missile complex, main 76mm gun, Cwiz, radar suite is all current and in service elsewhere in the Navy. Even the steam turbine parts will be useful for other ships of the class.

In short, be ready for this:

Image

Mayuresh wrote:..Hope they sell/gift the ship to a friendly country or a country with which we need to build relationships, instead of sinking it for target practice or scrapping it for metal. It has been in service for 32 years, I reckon the hull still has another 10-15 years left in it

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby arshyam » 24 Dec 2015 00:27

^^ Do only carriers and subs get to be museums? Since she was the first indigenous warship, why not consider an IMS Godavari?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 24 Dec 2015 00:45

Indian Navy Fleet Strength @ Close of 2015:

    Fly Navy
  • 02 Aircraft Carriers

    Surface Combatants:
  • 10 Destroyers
  • 14 Frigates
  • 20 Corvette (Missile)
  • 10 OPV
  • 06 Corvette (ASW)
  • 06 Minesweepers
  • 22 Fast Attack Crafts
  • 103 Interceptors

    Amphibs:
  • 01 LPD
  • 09 LST
  • 06 LCU

    Submarines:
  • 01 SSN
  • 14 SSK

    Auxilliaries:
  • 04 Replenishment Ships
  • 01 Diving Support Vessel
  • 01 Research Ship
  • 08 Survey Ships
  • 01 Training Ship
  • 04 Training Ship (Sail)
  • 22 Tugs

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 24 Dec 2015 11:06

Those whose info boundary is limited ,esp that of the IN's sub fleet,shouldn't pontificate and hyperventilate too much. I had dinner with a veteran submariner yesterday.He is a veteran ,and I know several,who has served/familiar with all our types,western and eastern. In fact over the last 2 months I've been with sev. *rred gents in the know.The gen feeling is that we should go "step-by-step" and not "buy the best simply because we have the money for it". There are huge tech issues to be mastered right from the Akula class.Even with our Akula,the Chakra,,there are several key items of eqpt. that have been deleted,from weaponry,sensors and eqpt. So much for us teaching the Russians as some fondly imagine.

The are only a few Yasens in service,highly complex,and those who know the conceptual differences in operating Russian and Western subs will understand this,and even the new tech Yasen is being built in an improved series. The Yasen is the first Soviet/Russian sub to have a spherical bow sonar.It also has its torpedo compartment amidships. Akulas have the traditional cylindrical bow sonar and a forward torpedo compartment. It also has a diff. N-reactor.You can imagine the problem the IN will have in training 3 different sub crews to operate ATV/Arihants,an Akula and a Yasen,let alone the 3 conventional sub types that we possess !
Therefore,the Yasen,from a class perspective,is still a "work in progress". Moreover,most of the weaponry,long range misssiles,etc.,cannot be provided to the IN because of the MTCR. Some of the sensors are even more sophisticated than the Akulas,which we do not possess. Then as said before,what about the huge shore support establishments,workshops,N-reactor support,etc. for 3 classes of N-subs ,plus a future fourth when our 6 indigenously built SSNs arrive?! A maintenance/support nightmare.
So even for argument's sake,if we do get a Yasen on lease,in what level of sophistication will it be? It will have been stripped of a lot of its bleedin' edge exotic tech.. The next Akula-2 on offer is to come with more advanced eqpt.etc. than the first,along with some Yasen input. That is the way to go.Operating a Yasen in the viewpoint of many submariners present and past, is premature. The way forward for the IN is to acquire a second improved Akula,which will give us the opportunity to train enough crews of SSGNs, and then design and build an SSN/SSGN to suit our requirements with whatever help we can get from east or west.

It is hoped that the huge deal for extra reactors civil,will also have a spin-off in the N-sub/N-sub reactor arena. We will have to wait for some time before the contours of whatever has been agreed upon in Moscow filters into the public eye.

PS:INS Godavari was not just an IN landmark,but one for Indian shipbuilding! It was our very first indigenous design,blending eqpt. and weaponry from east and west,with Indian inoputs.Foreign navies were exceptionally curious to see how it would work..or not.sadly to say...for them,it worked v. well. A former CNS told me how it had all been done.using the same (stretched) Leander hull and power plant to create a much larger frigate which also was capable of operating 2 Sea Kings,a first for any navy worldwide on such a small ship. There was a study done by a western entity which found that the Godavari had 25% less space for the powerplant/machinery than a std. western frigate.They were astounded.The Dutch and Brits,to whom the design was sent to first for vetting laughed at it,but the good chief "boxed on" in full confidence of his "corps of naval constructors" as the naval design team was then called.To add,the Godavari found its way onto the cover of Time magazine in the '80s.

The Godavari turned the clock back centuries,when India was one of the greatest seafaring nations in the world which built its own warships.It must be preserved.Cochin would be an excellent place for it to rest as a naval museum.In London HMS Belfast is one such.why not the Godavari? Let's mount a campaign to save her by writing to the DM and CNS.
Last edited by Philip on 24 Dec 2015 11:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_22539 » 24 Dec 2015 11:35

^Your hearsay and consequent opinion has been noted.

Now this is what a gent really in the know has to say about this:

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 12h12 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
Russia will agree to Yasen, provided they are assured of being deep in the IN's SSN build program.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Viv S » 24 Dec 2015 11:55

Philip wrote:Those whose info boundary is rather small ,esp that of the IN's sub fleet,shouldn't pontificate and hyperventilate too much. I had dinner with a veteran submariner yesterday.He is a veteran ,and I know several,who has served/familiar with all our types,western and eastern. In fact over the last 2 months I've been with sev. *rred gents in the know.The gen feeling is that we should go "step-by-step" and not "buy the best simply because we have the money for it". There are huge tech issues to be mastered right from the Akula class.Even with our Akula,the Chakra,,there are several key items of eqpt. that have been deleted,from weaponry,sensors and eqpt. So much for us teaching the Russians as some fondly imagine.

And it was these worthy gentlemen who told you that they don't competence to operate a Yasen class? Also, assuming that there is consensus in the Navy on its own incompetence, why did it request the Yasen, when operating it was so clearly beyond its capabilities?

The are only a few Yasens in service,highly complex,and those who know the conceptual differences in operating Russian and Western subs will understand this,and even the new tech Yasen is being built in an improved series. The Yasen is the first Soviet/Russian sub to have a spherical bow sonar.It also has its torpedo compartment amidships. Akulas have the traditional cylindrical bow sonar and a forward torpedo compartment. It also has a diff. N-reactor.You can imagine the problem the IN will have in training 3 different sub crews to operate ATV/Arihants,an Akula and a Yasen,let alone the 3 conventional sub types that we possess !

If only our officers and sailors were as capable as their colleagues in Russian Navy, who are operate the Oscar class, Delta class, Typhoon class, Victor class, Sierra class, Akula class, now joined by the Borei class and Yasen class nuclear submarines. And also two classes of conventional submarines - Kilo class & Lada class.

Tsk tsk, our duffers could learn a thing or two.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 24 Dec 2015 12:38

Unfortunately,Viv,"you can't see the wood for the trees". The Q is not scotching our Yasen ambitions,but to avoid rushing in too hastily..We already operate a diverse number of sub types,are experiencing massive difficulties in keeping them operational and are just beginning to "walk" operating N-subs. The IN now wants the very latest SSGN in the world,which even US analysts say is superior in some respects to the Virginia/Seawolfs. It is far more sophisticated than the Akula-2 which we are operating (not to mention the last Akula,considered an Akula-3), for which our submariners have been trained for in Russia. How much similarity exists between the Akula and the Arihant class is debatable,and will not be in the public domain,but given the Ru assistance with the ATV and the Akula lease,there should be a degree of similarity in certain areas,which would enhance the ability of the IN for its sub crews to serve son both types.

At the moment,as the Arihant has yet to be commissioned.,we have the grand total of operating just one N-sub for barely a few years.We now have grand ambitions of acquiring the world's best ! Laudable,but within what realistic timeframe Prudence would dictate that we proceed cautiously. It is the considered opinion and not mere "hearsay", of many multi-starred gents as said before,including submariners,that we should go at N-sub acquisitions cautiously "step-by-step". In contrast,there is a great diff. in comparing the IAF's wish for a 5th-gen fighter and the IN's N-sub ambitions..The IAF have been operating for a very long time,MKIs,in the top of the top drawer of global fighters.We are fully knowledgeable about the aircraft,its capabilities,operating and maintaining over 150 aircraft. Had we been operating at least a couple of Akulas for about 3-4 years plus a couple of SSBNs, we would be in a far better sate of experience to absorb a Yasen class SSGN as the next step.

Even if a Yasen is given to us on lease, and the delivery time of one may take longer than another Akula,one can be sure that it will not come with all the bells and whistles for obvious reasons,stated before. Yasen tech and design input for the new series of SSNs to be built indigenously is another matter. It is even possible that the task is given to a pvt. yard,which has the requisite experienced HR resources including those at the top, as HSL will be busy for over a decade building our SSBNs and not capable of building two N-sub programmes simultaneously. It would be a great coup for Russia which would continue to be the IN's principal partner for the next few decades with influence over our N-sub programmes. But then,it is only the Russians which are willing to provide us with N-subs and such sub tech! However,given the costs,including that of infrastructure that needs to be built,it is going to impose a huge strain,financially,technologically and manpower wise for the IN. A massive challenge that will require 1st rate project management.

One is not sure if such a deal goes through where the P-75I programmes stands,with reports about the offer of another 2 Kilo 636s as a quick-fix for depleting numbers. Given the huge delay in that acquisition,drawn up decades ago,and the cost factor too,it may be worth examining sinking that prog.acquiring "more of the same",Scorpenes ,Kilos,U-boats and investing the money saved into building up a larger N-sub fleet as advocated all along.
Last edited by Philip on 24 Dec 2015 12:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Viv S » 24 Dec 2015 12:56

Philip wrote:Unfortunately,Viv,"you can't see the wood for the trees". The Q is not scotching our Yasen ambitions,but to avoid rushing in too hastily..We already operate a diverse number of sub types,are experiencing massive difficulties in keeping them operational and are just beginning to "walk" operating N-subs. The IN now wants the very latest SSGN in the world,which even US analysts say is superior in some respects to the Virginia/Seawolfs. It is far more sophisticated than the Akula-2 which we are operating (not to mention the last Akula,considered an Akula-3), for which our submariners have been trained for in Russia. How much similarity exists between the Akula and the Arihant class is debatable,and will not be in the public domain,but given the Ru assistance with the ATV and the Akula lease,there should be a degree of similarity in certain areas,which would enhance the ability of the IN for its sub crews to serve son both types.

You can use lots of words but your basic premise remains unchanged and asinine viz. the Yasen is 'too advanced' for IN's simple submariners. Based on the loony idea of the Yasen being 'harder' to operate than the Akula.

It is the considered opinion of many multi-starred gents as said before,including submariners,that we should go at N-sub acquisitions cautiously "step-by-step". In contrast,there is a great diff. in comparing the IAF's wish for a 5th-gen fighter and the IN's N-sub ambitions..

Pray tell, why did these multi-starred gents, so refreshingly aware of their own shortcomings, place a request with the Russians for the Yasen?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby sum » 24 Dec 2015 13:13

In fact over the last 2 months I've been with sev. *rred gents in the know.The gen feeling is that we should go "step-by-step" and not "buy the best simply because we have the money for it".

Scared that people even think such a thing. :eek: :eek:

Cant imagine it being different than cartoon showing a brown snake charmer as India who should not dream of anything since he isnt fit!

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby DexterM » 24 Dec 2015 13:35

Reading through cases submitted to AFT - this one in particular was intriguing. (The aspect of the letter for holding promotion in abeyance being passed by a superior officer who was not authorized to do so -- and the notes on JAG by the learned bench).
(In short, given that several naval officers are or have been in the dock in the recent past, what will be repurcussions across the command chain of such judgments? ) http://aftkolkata.nic.in/upload/court/Court-167.pdf
Quoting part of the judgment and the order.
02.
While parting with the case we would like to observe that the JAG Branch of all the three wings of the Armed Forces seems to be not equipped with broader knowledge of constitution and law as it stands. It further appears that they are not well versed with interpretative jurisprudence as well as administrative law. Hence it shall be appropriate that JAG Branch of all the three wings of the Armed Forces must be trained with aid of eminent lawyers and judges to cope with the litigation in Tribunal or Court.

O R D E R
103. In view of the above, O. A. deserves to be allowed. Accordingly, O. A. is allowed . The impugned order dated 11.02.2010
as well as appellate order dated 12.03.2012 as is annexed with O. A. are set aside with all consequential benefits. No order as to costs.
103. Let a copy of the order be sent to the Chief of the Naval Staff to take appropriate steps with regard to training to educate the JAG Branch relating to the different facet on developing law. Opinion as contained in para 99 shall also be forwarded to the Chief of the Air
Force and Army within one week.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby NRao » 24 Dec 2015 13:40

The IN now wants the very latest SSGN in the world,which even US analysts say is superior in some respects to the Virginia/Seawolfs.


A dumbed down version, per that reliable source. So why would it matter?

I would lean towards Jha's findings. Yasen + deep consultancy, would right all these conversations over dinner.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 24 Dec 2015 13:54

Yes,the Yasen is too advanced for the IN right now and even advanced for many RuN submariners.Only their very best crews serve aboard their latest subs..How many Yasens are operational? The first,Severodvinsk ,was commissioned into the RuN only 2 years ago in Dec 2013! Do you think that even the RuN have mastered the new sub and its tech? Why then are they building an advanced version for the rest?

I leave it to intelligent minds to consider whether the IN can truly operate such a sub (when we've barely operated one Akula-2 without some key features, from Apr 2012) without a considerable number of Russian submariners manning the key posts. The desire to possess the best,latest,most expensive mil hardware is a recent trend in the Indian armed forces.The IAF hell-bent upon ultra-expensive Rafales which cost twice that of an MKI. The IN now wants a Yasen.I am sure that shortly the IA will also want the Armata to keep company with its sister services! Though I do advocate acquiring advanced Ru milware,as the Russians provide us what the West won't, we must be able to absorb the tech of the weapon system and operate it successfully to the fullest of its capabilities.

A month ago one had a long discussion on the same on the issue with 2 multi-starred gents. I've given their considered opinion and that of others. They are being very prudent,given their decades of experience with N-sub,subs,etc. The second,the Kazan is reportedly costing double of the first,between $2-3B and one can expect the cost of the others under construction to also cost a bomb.
In my view,the SSBN programme should come first,accompanied by our SSGN/SSNs behind,as it is our strat deterrent against China and Pak.Our SSBNs do not have ICBMs aboard, absolutely essential to be able to hide in far greater oceanspace than the IOR alone. In fact,one would've welcomed us gaining Borei SSBN tech as a priority with Yasen sub/tech next!

Being prudent.
“The prudent man always studies seriously and earnestly to understand whatever he professes to understand, and not merely to persuade other people that he understands it; and though his talents may not always be very brilliant, they are always perfectly genuine. He neither endeavours to impose upon you by the cunning devices of an artful impostor, nor by the arrogant airs of an assuming pedant, nor by the confident assertions of a superficial and imprudent pretender,and he is averse to all the quackish arts by which other people so frequently thrust themselves into public notice and reputation.”
Adam Smith.

PS:What use is a "dumbed down" sub? At great cost too? it would leave the Rus laughing all the way to the bank,providing us with a new hull and N-reactor and not much more than an Ak-2! The Akula is 25+m shorter than the Yasen ,over 1000t less dpl. So you can imagine the extra cost factor. Devoid of its principal sensors,sonars,combat systems,decoys,weaponry,commn systems and some exotic quieting tech,what is its worth? Experiencing how to handle such a hull UW and perhaps some extra speed ?! The Chakra does not have the extra tubes at the bows for their very effective decoys on Ru Akulas.They've been sealed off. Seriously,I would prefer the IN to acquire the second improved Akula,offered at speed,which will give us an immediate capability and ease of crew rotations,followed on by a Yasen by 2020. Yasen tech on our indigenously built SSNs/SSGNs very welcome.

Anyway,have to buzz off for seasonal obligations.Greetings to one and all for all the inpout,kudos and flak accepted in the same spirit! Trust all will be very "spiritual" in the coming days and that 2016 will be a landmark year for the IN,IA,IAF and the nation!
Last edited by Philip on 24 Dec 2015 14:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby PratikDas » 24 Dec 2015 13:56

sum wrote:
In fact over the last 2 months I've been with sev. *rred gents in the know.The gen feeling is that we should go "step-by-step" and not "buy the best simply because we have the money for it".

Scared that people even think such a thing. :eek: :eek:

Cant imagine it being different than cartoon showing a brown snake charmer as India who should not dream of anything since he isnt fit!

+1

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Viv S » 24 Dec 2015 14:24

Philip wrote:Yes,the Yasen is too advanced for the IN right now and even advanced for many RuN submariners.Only their very best crews serve aboard their latest subs.. How many Yasens are operational? The first,Severodvinsk ,was commissioned into the RuN only 2 years ago in Dec 2013! Do you think that even the RuN have mastered the new sub and its tech? Why then are they building an advanced version for the rest?

Unlike our 'very best crews' who're unfit to man these boats even after having trained on the leased Akula, and going through the same Russian training module for the Yasen.

Philip wrote:I leave it to intelligent minds to consider whether the IN can truly operate such a sub (when we've barely operated one Akula-2 without some key features, from Apr 2012) without a considerable number of Russian submariners manning the key posts.

So four years into its ten year lease, the INS Chakra is still 'barely' operational. Good to know. And you want us to get another one?

Philip wrote:Though I do advocate acquiring advanced Ru malware,as the Russians provide us what the West won't, we must be able to absorb the tech of the weapon system and operate it successfully to the fullest of its capabilities.

Right.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby dnivas » 24 Dec 2015 15:34

these non stop to and fro's between Philip and the other guys who constantly taunt and harass him is getting frustrating. it's like a bunch of little kids arguing .

the last few months, as soon as Philip makes a post, rest assured the next few posts are from the repeated offenders questioning his citizenship and his commitment. Frankly this is tiring.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 24 Dec 2015 16:09

I agree and I am going to put a stop to it by banning people for 1 month if its seen again.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_22539 » 24 Dec 2015 16:36

^It takes more than one hand to clap. His latest statement about how IN personnel are inept compared to those from the Russian Navy have crossed the limit of condescension.

I hope you take a fair view of this matter, even if he is a senior and valuable member of the forum. I hope all sides will tone down.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Shreeman » 24 Dec 2015 17:42

Arun,

The mods are reading the threads. If you care, report instead of polluting the thread. If you dont, use the ignore list. I realized that the problem is not Phillip's postings or Russian goods long ago and DID complain back then. As to what it is, why its grown to these levels or tolerated, you can make your own assessment. These threads used to be hard to post if you couldnt technically contribute. Now they are cringeworthy and unreadable. I often have to resist the temptation to read navy related threads, and my ignore list has grown from 0 to all your usual suspects.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2015 06:12

dnivas wrote:these non stop to and fro's between Philip and the other guys who constantly taunt and harass him is getting frustrating. it's like a bunch of little kids arguing .

the last few months, as soon as Philip makes a post, rest assured the next few posts are from the repeated offenders questioning his citizenship and his commitment. Frankly this is tiring.


Sure, while you are at it, please do ask the gent in question to stop acting like a cheerleader for the russians in post after post, whilst running down Indian agencies and programs, citing all sorts of dubious sources. Its not even amusing any more. There is bias and then there is blatant prejudice.

Thread after thread, polluted by the gent in question posting some pro Russian agitprop in bold font whilst running down Indian firms alleging all sorts of stuff, for far less than the Russians do. Its tiresome and provokes a counter reaction. Open the thread - invariably, one crazy post about how great the Russians are, how pathetic India is, how some chap over some drinks made outrageous claims (so they must be true, irrespective of what the reality is, even if its contradicted by multiple credible reports) and then the cascade of outraged replies starts. Rinse, lather, repeat.

If a person constantly provokes people by posting misleading claims, refuses to entertain any facts which contradicts their prejudices, then its pretty late in the day to play a victim.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby thammu » 25 Dec 2015 09:03

If a person constantly provokes people by posting misleading claims, refuses to entertain any facts which contradicts their prejudices, then its pretty late in the day to play a victim.


++1

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby suryag » 25 Dec 2015 09:30

++1

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Vivek K » 25 Dec 2015 11:58

I totally agree. When someone runs Indian programs down with dubious sources, that is not called out enough! When someone criticizes that it is called "rhetoric" on today's BRF. In the past oldies like Nitin/ JCage would be in the forefront attacking the gent.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Gyan » 25 Dec 2015 12:44

I support Russian imports in some instances as better than other sources but Philip comments were in extremely poor taste, even despicable

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Cybaru » 25 Dec 2015 13:16

thammu wrote:
If a person constantly provokes people by posting misleading claims, refuses to entertain any facts which contradicts their prejudices, then its pretty late in the day to play a victim.


++1


++1

Totally agree, if admins need to mod it, then they need to talk to the poster to stop baiting. Any other poster doing this bait and run would have been hunted, skinned and banned by now.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby geeth » 25 Dec 2015 19:05

Phillip, if I may but-in, I think your statements are a bit confusing...according to me , the more advanced a ship or submarine is, the less difficult it should be to OPERATE. What you mean by absorbing technology is..may be for maintenance than operation. Hear again, if the supplier parts with it, no issues...but they won't. Particularly the Russians. You are right when you say we are not yet ready to absorb latest tech. But that is not because of Yasen is sooo advanced. It is because our level of sub tech is primitive..even with Arihant. And if we have to master it, we have to gain experience by slogging over it for years. Our babu-netas dont want it. They look for quick fixes in crises and forget everything after the crises. Ask the Navy whether the Navy can do the mid-life refit of the Kilos..they can't. It is because the Russians want to make money and babus failed to negotiate the deal properly. They are all bombastic, including the Navy brass whom you are referring to. As long as the scientific community goes by time scale promotions, asses will warm chairs in critical positions.

I only hope the new ventures with private players don't become ventures to swindle money for mota bhais and chota bhais of the industry as well apart from the Russians. Because it is far more easier for all these private players to outsource most of the work to Russians and add their percentages to the final bill. And they can grease babu-netas much more efficiently than Russians themselves. Win-win for all..babus, netas, multi-starred faujis, chota-mota bhais etc. I wont be surprised if the repairs bills of Indian private dock yards turns out to be more than that of Russian Yards in a few years...UNLESS serious efforts are made to put proper systems in place, genuine tenders are placed and heathy competion among private players are ensured. It is difficult

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Dec 2015 22:38

Philip: Thanks for the elaboration on your view on why the IN may not be able to operate the Yassen at this stage. I do think there are some other issues too, such as Russia having two of these in hand, costs and it maybe best to acquire an Akula III as an evolution both for operations and the desired level of design input into the SSN program.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 26 Dec 2015 00:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_23370 » 25 Dec 2015 22:43

So nothing much of substance yet, but hopefully groundwork is being prepared. Don't think IN needs 3-4 more Krivaks, they should get the P-17a rolling along with P-15 B &C's.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 26 Dec 2015 00:18

Why can't we agree on the possibility that Russia may not have one yasen to spare ? .. IN would definitely should try to leap frog a couple of generations as it can as it feels it needs to play catch up with the latest Chinese designs ..America will not be accommodating on nuclear sub technology and only the Russian's are left ..they are indeed tried and tested partners ... it could be a possibility that the next successive line of nuclear subs may be more advanced with Russian help and that is indeed a very distinct possibility if the Russian's are game for leasing the yasen at least for a short period

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2015 10:40

I've added some comments in the Indo-Ru td.These relate to the spate of accidents we've had in recent times reg. subs/warships.Adm.Joshi rsigned in protest when AKA,etc. put all the blame on the IN refusing to accept their responsibility in not processing urgently required ,spares like batteries,and new sub orders.Some Kilos are 30 yrs old and the upgrades are second refits!

If you talk to those with an intimate knowledge of the IN's sub fleet in particular,who've operated and helped build our subs,you will realize that operating subs is another maritime game altogether.Training has to be exceptional,eqpt. maintained as it needs to be regularly,so that it can be relied upon in a crisis,etc. SOP failure is supposed to have been the cause of the loss of the SR. Training,time at sea,command experience are problems that the IN faces.

Said before,we operate right now only 1 N-sub,an Akula-2,which does not possess key Akula-2 sensors,weaponry,decoys,etc. The extra tubes have all been plated over and the Chakra does not have the extra larger tubes for larger dia cruise missiles.The RuN also operates Akula-3 subs.These do not have the bulbous TA on the fin,removed because it sometimes produces wake disturbances. Yasens are even more advanced with spherical bow sonars,torpedo room amidships,etc.The 3-4 under constr. are to be more advanced that the Sev. and Kazan. Is there a Yasen that can be leased right now?
The RuN need swill always come first,understandable, and Putin is concentrating on building a large modern N-sub fleet as his top military priority.Clearly an IN lease is premature if one studies the situ dispassionately and objectively. Certainly,after operating at least 2 Akula-2s,and the second was reportedly offered with a more advanced capability,including Yasen features,a Yasen lease by 2020,plus Yasen type/input SSNs locally built would be a good roadmap.

Remember that we've yet to operate our first Scorpene which will only be commissioned in 2016. Costs will be v.high ,the IN gets the smallest share of the def. cake, and these costs would include base facilities and infrastructure,plus skilled crews of N-submariners.The Chinese have a particular phrase worth ruminating upon."Hasten cautiously".
We have a long way to go in undersea warfare.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 26 Dec 2015 11:02

This is a great development,along with our supposed Mauritius Agalega island ambitions. Given the Chinese foray into Djibouti,India setting up a full-fledged naval base in the Seychelles is a veritable coup.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 022404.ece

December 23, 2015
‘Seychelles committed to Indian naval base’
Seychelles President acknowledges that India has been steadily increasing its maritime and security cooperation with Seychelles.

A plot of land for India to build its first naval base in the Indian Ocean region has been allocated by the Seychelles government in the Assumption Island.


Lifting the veil of secrecy around the planned project, President James Michel of the Seychelles told The Hindu: “This is a joint project between India and Seychelles involving our two Defence Forces in enhancing our mutual security along our western seaboard. Seychelles is absolutely committed to the project.”

Seychelles is expecting India’s evaluation team to visit the spot soon, President Michel said. The project has acquired significance following China acquiring its first African naval base in Djibouti in November. Once ready, the naval base to be built by the defence forces of India, and Seychelles will help India exercise greater control over the Indian Ocean’s western region all the way to the piracy-prone eastern African coastline.

The base will be one of the major staging posts for a large maritime security network that India is setting up with the help of the various Indian Ocean region partner countries.

Apart from the naval base, India is set to acquire a fully operational coastal radar system (CRS) based in Seychelles from March 2016, Mr. Michel said. The CRS will provide India with the ability to gather intelligence and assist in surveillance operations of the vital energy lanes near Seychelles.


“The Maritime Radar Project is a major development for Seychelles’ and India’s mutual desire for security in the field of maritime security,” said President Michel, who was sworn in for a third term on December 20.
Fighting piracy
Security operation in the Indian Ocean region will also be helped by the leadership role that Seychelles has secured for itself in the Contact Group for Piracy off the Coast of Somalia (CGPCS), which will hold its first meeting in Mumbai on January 31, 2016. “Both India and Seychelles have a vested interest in securitising the Western Indian Ocean. We have forged a partnership that has gone a fair distance in eradicating the scourge of Somalia-based piracy as well as other maritime security issues.”

Mr. Michel acknowledged that India has been steadily increasing its maritime and security cooperation with Seychelles and that a new patrol vessel from India will be handed over to Seychelles in mid-January 2016.

“These initiatives have greatly helped our security environment,” said the President who visited New Delhi in August. He had been persistent in building a security network to prevent piracy, arms trafficking and financial fraud in the banks of the Indian Ocean region islands.

India, with its strong intelligence network, will also be helpful in maritime law enforcement by Seychelles, he added. While declaring support for India’s maritime security plans, President Michel pointed out that small nations are equally important in the contemporary world order and need to be taken seriously for the sake of preserving the security and order.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 26 Dec 2015 13:26

there is no question of leasing any Yasen, we would be lucky to manage any akula now given the extent of western hostilities against Russia. putin needs all the firepower he can gather.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby NRao » 26 Dec 2015 14:04

A castrated Akula? Followed by a castrated Yasen?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 27 Dec 2015 17:17

RuN Kilos are doing just fine in the Levant,plus under O'Bomber,or should one say "No-Bomber",the Rus have nothing to worry about. As said before,the IAF want ultra-luxury Rafales,the IN want their Yasens and watch the IA wanting Armatas in the near future!

PS:The OZ competition has seen the 3 major bidders slash their costs dramatically.But the cost of a sub is still prohibitive.$15B for 12 subs down from $20B. That's at least $1.25B for a 2500-3000t conventional AIP sub. One can get 4-5 Kilos for just one of the 3 contenders at that price today.

PS:Just posted the return of the Gripen in the FGFA td.Here is the hot news! So you will see a JV between the IAF and IN that "there is no alternative to the Gripen",just as we saw "no Plan B" for the Rafale! We will then graciously offer SAAB a carrier for Gripen trials as part of our co-dev costs,a ski-jump facility already exists at Goa for MIG-29Ks,so on the immortal words of Alfred E.Neuman,"what me worry?"


Saab pitches for joint development of Sea Gripen fighter jets

By PTI | 27 Dec, 2015
NEW DELHI: Swedish defence major Saab has offered to collaborate with India to develop the sea version of its fighter aircraft Gripen with transfer of technology.

"We have a great opportunity for technology transfer," Ulf Nilsson, head of Saab's aeronautics division said as he spoke about the naval version of the Gripen and the ongoing project of the DRDO to develop the naval version of the LCA Tejas.Asked who will pay for the cost of the development, he said, "There is a cost for everything. But you can always talk about different investment schemes. If you see there are other potential customers...you can do it jointly with Brazil. Thailand is also a potential customer for Sea Gripen".
While the navy supports the naval version of the indigenously developed LCA Tejas, it is concerned about uncertainty over the commitment of the Indian Air Force to the LCA Mk 2 fighters, which have been long delayed and are the basis for the naval LCA.

The IAF has recently announced orders for a total of 120 LCA aircraft, with three modifications to the existing version of Tejas, which are below the LCA Mk2 standard.
*(IMR reports in its latest issue that the IAF is sceptical about the performance of the MK-1/1A)

Navy chief Admiral R K Dhowan had recently said the Navy was committed to the project and will have to see that the version of the LCA Mk2 meets the force's requirements in totality.

The Indian Navy is likely to commission aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, under construction in Cochin, in 2018. However, it is not clear if the naval LCA will be ready by then. *(it won't!)

Saab has already done a feasibility study and they say that they have identified all the modifications that need to be done to the Gripen to create a naval version.

However, the biggest drawback for the Saab is that Sweden does not have an aircraft carrier and hence development of even a prototype is a problem. *(offer was made a long time ago for a Sea Gripen for the Viraat! Perhaps SAAB could use the de-commissioned Viraat for a trials ship ) :mrgreen:


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
Last edited by Philip on 27 Dec 2015 17:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Nick_S » 27 Dec 2015 17:40

Captain DK Sharma ‏@CaptDKS 18m18 minutes ago
Shore Based Training Facility (SBTF) at Naval Air Station Hansa, Goa for training MiG 29 K Pilots..Enjoy the trap.

https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/681095526360612864
^ Video here.
Last edited by Nick_S on 28 Dec 2015 01:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 27 Dec 2015 23:15

Castration means impotnce.Too infer that our Akula is impotent is laughable and indicates poor knowledge of its true capabilities.The Russian boats have longer ranged missiles due to the MTCR regime.Certain sensors and decoys that give them the edge over US SSNs are predictably omitted. Our conventional subs and Scorpenes to come do not have the speed,endurance and missiles like the Klub series as well.They can only patrol for 45 days,60 with AIP which only our last two Scorpenes will be fitted with. The Exocets have less than half the Klub's range,are not supersonic like the Klub's terminal warheads and are only haf as fast and half thr diving depth.No Shkval rocket torpedoes either! The full range of wake-homing and heavyweight torpedoes and in larger number are on the Akula making the sub anything but impotent.Lastly,the Chakra with its std 90 day patrol and 500nm/day range ,can cover vast distances in a std 90 day patrol. No diesel boat comes close in these crucial factors.

The US refused its closestmil allies the F-22 becos of security worries,instead are selling them the JSF turkey!

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Vivek K » 28 Dec 2015 05:09

Focus the local MIC in developing capabilities.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 28 Dec 2015 07:24

unless we do a full spectrum P75I such will not happen. and even then where do we get the marine diesels from, gearboxes ? I think we need to accept that P75I should be made as much locally as possible but at the cost of being 20% not as good as scorpene or whatever uber-imported SSK is being offered. but local food chain will be built just as Cheen did with the Yuan.

Rubin would likely be willing to play ball on developing a longer single hull Kilo design to our needs....the rest of the mob will just try to push their COTS designs with lots of subsystem imports. atleast with Rus we have more exp of working with arihant project. and they will surely put in the right equipment to deploy the nirbhay for torpedo tube or VL plug (8-10 subcaliber in two big holes)

we could not even get the scorpene to accomodate the relatively easy Klub out of TT, forget about UVLS.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 28 Dec 2015 10:03

The next Ru conventional sub is supposed to be the Kalina class.Little info about that,but it will certainly be better than the Amurs. The Kilos,from the SK refit details I posted a little while ago,have a lot of new input,NHPP masts,plus new combat systems,etc. What is lacks is an AIP system.That is supposed to be fitted to later Amurs.No idea how far the improved battery system is either that may obviate the need for an AIP system.

Singha is quie right,as to the distance we have to travel to master sub building at home with desi components. Thus far as we know,hulls,a certain amt. of aux. machinery and sonars aren't a problem.Weapon systems are,combat systems,engines,gearbox,'scopes,AIP system,etc.We have developed passive decoys as have been displayed at expos,but active anti-torpedo systems,nein. It would be interesting to see what % of the Scorpenes are now indigenous.With the experience ,in the near future of operating French,German and Russian conventional and N-boats ,we should be in a position to determine the contours of a future desi conventional boat,esp. if the DRDO AIP system arrives.But that boat may appear only a decade hence,around 2025.Until then we need another new class or a lot of extras to suffice.

Looking at the enormous cost given to OZ,$15B for 12 subs,that too down from $20B,if 12 are built in OZ,making each sub around $1.25B (!),it would be far better for the IN tp pursue more nuclear boats at a cost of around $1.5B instead,which would give us far better capability,etc. We would not need a 12/13,000t SSGN like the Yasens,perhaps 8-10,000t instead,Arihant size,which would come in cheaper. If Ru Kilos are available for around $350M,up from the $300M that Vietnam paid and Amurs supposed to be even cheaper,then a future Ru boat could certainly be available for not more than $400M,giving us 3 subs for every one that OZ get from the West/Japan.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby maz » 28 Dec 2015 10:13

IN operates 136 commissioned ships and submarines + 1 SSBN in its pre-commissioning cycle as of 27 Dec2015. Note that there are 6 MCMVs and four old Mk 3 LCUs - L36-L39 that remain active. Not all 80 Solas Marine FICs have been delivered yet. Around 48 have arrived so FICs holdings are around 86 including 23 ISVS +15 Plascoa 1300 FICs.

There are now 50 ships and subs under construction or whose contracts have been signed. 2016 could see over 10 new ships and subs getting commissioned. In addition, another 52 have been cleared/approved but no contracts have been signed yet. Of these, the MCMV contract with Kangnam will most likely be the first to signed followed by one for P-75I (one hopes). Another 17 are planned including the second Russian SSN, 3-4 Scorpenes and 4 modified Pr. 11356 FFGs from Russia via Pipavav. In total 126 more ships are being built/approved/planned/being negotiated for.

One thinks it would have been much quicker and cheaper to buy the new Pr. 11356 directly from Russia if the goal is to fill gaps quickly. Instead, why not order more P-17A - a vastly superior warship - and let pvt yards build them or at least build fully outfiitted modules thus overcoming the PSU argument that warships are too complex for the 'inexperienced' pvt yards to build. Naysayers will also say that the seas are too rough to transport modules yet the IN regularly transports 'objects' to and from Russia and elsewhere on heavy lift vessels - some of which are built by L&T!

With respect to the aspirations to have a navy of 200 ships by 2027, it is a dream. The best that may happen is 150-160 ships by 2027 given that at least 59 of the 137 extant ships would need to be decommissioned by 2027 or earlier on account of 35 years or more of service. Still, this would be a remarkable measure of growth when taken in concert with the many qualitative gains (tempered by some serious capability gaps that remain slow to be filled) the IN has achieved in recent years.

On the other hand, even seriously contemplating nuclear power for a carrier is profligate when its unclear what/where the carrier battle groups intended footprint and deployment will be needs to be debated. Surely, the IN is not contemplating maintaining a CVBG in the SCS which is tantamount to the PLAN doing the same in the IOR. Therefore, one suspects its rather driven by prestige issues. If so, perhaps planners/leaders will be well served to think just how many large OPVs with a modular combat system ((or a mix of other surface forces) could be purchased for the cost of building and maintaining one CVN! and the IN might go for the IAC-3. After all, the vast majority of the IN's missions and tasks are constabulary in nature and will remain so. Yes, there is a need to build up the core of a blue water sea control force but at what cost?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 28 Dec 2015 11:28

Maz,spot on. We aren't an "expeditionary force" nation unlike the US/NATO. Most of our ops wil be within the IOR,where we are establishing bases/agreements with smaller littoral nations like Mauritius,Seychlles,etc. Our amphib flato-top vessels will be put to more use than a N-powered CV. However,the CNS in a recent interview wants larger 65t+ CVs. I would advocate building at least a couple of similar Vikrant sized amphibs ,with a similar flight deck and main hangar deck,to allow aircraft to operate for both close support of landing forces as well as a strike/air defence role, giving these vessels multi-use capability. In normal ops hey would have a large number of large helos aboard for airborne assault.

Smaller corvettes heavily armed like RuN's Buyan-Ms/OPVs with increased armament,would cost a fraction of largersurface combatants.The extra Talwar want perhaps reflects this aspect,that the Talwars for their size pack a v.heavy punch and are cheaper than the P-17s. The 3-4 being built and which are available,could be snapped up with final fitting out done at the "R" yard at Pipavav. This would reduce induction time substantially.The yard could then either build more or after the Talwars build more P-17As and other warships.

Nevertheless,for out of IOR ops N-subs and subs are the best option for both offence and defence.They are stealthy,numbers on patrol unknown and N-subs with a 90 day patrol can spend around 60 days in the required area of interest. For operating our conventional/AIP boats,we will need to have an advance sub base facility at the A&N islands as well. Underwater sub pens which can support most types of our subs as well as UUVs ,which could be deployed both from warships and specially fitted auxiliaries and even merchantmen,will help reduce transit time from the eastern coast/bases.


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