Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[vina]

I think it is rolling more as the waves are side on.
some of the latest container ships are so large, the traditional superstructure & single funnel at the back is no longer enough....no sir these bad cats take around 10,000 x 40ft containers and are about 18 containers wide and have the bridge in the middle for a clearer view of the bow

Container ships are specified in TEU (Twenty equivalent units..) The standard ISO container is 20ft * 8 ft * 8 1/2 ft. So a forty foot long container is classified as 2 TEUs. In any case a 10,000 TEU ship is a pretty large ship. Much of it serving the Chinese /SoKo/Japanese merchandise export engine to US and Europe.

[Singha]

there is a belt of water called "roaring 40s" of something like that in the southern oceans which ocean sailors used for fast transits in the past and now round the world sailor types or yacht races do....yes there are still a breed of hard and uncompromising (wo)men out there who can sail alone in such seas .... sometimes storm break a mast or overturn the yacht yet they still cling on until help arrives from aus or nz.

this isnt a huge ship just a yacht - so u get a more scary view of any wave

Cape Town to Brisbane through the Southern Ocean winter on a Leopard39,
64 days non-stop, 65kts+ winds.
Biggest surf: 34kts

[Singha]

these are also the areas our future SSBNs will lurk in , the deep abyssal basin of the southern IOR. other tha n a weatherbeaten rock or two with french squatters , there aint nothing for 1000s of km

[vina]

there is a belt of water called "roaring 40s" of something like that in the southern oceans which ocean sailors used for fast transits in the past and now round the world sailor types or yacht races do

Yes. That is pretty nasty waters as well. It is the old UK/Australia route in the days of the sailing ships. It basically takes advantage of the Antarctic circumpolar current and the fact that the radius narrows as you go nearer to the poles to circumnavigate.

So really barrel down the Antarctic go past cape horn thereabouts , ride the current and the rough seas and reach Australia in a Jiffy by heading east . Coming back, you don't double, back, but keep going EAST from Australia /NZ , get to Cape horn from the pacific side, miserable seas, and then go back up the Atlantic to UK. Same route the fast clippers for the tea trade used to do from Hong Kong to UK in (around a month) or so , records are 22 days or so.

With that route becoming defunct , places like Tristan Da Cunha, which are literally in the middle of nowhere , fell off the map.

Check out the "Clipper route''

[Singha]

cape horn and the magellan straits... *shudder* resonates with the raw menace of hostile winds and black oceans...one of the more scary places on mother earth. that part of argentina is also wild and features some huge vertical rock pillars that the elite of climbing community sometimes go down to try.

what little I have seen of that place in movies and docus tells me give it a very wide berth

I think shackleton's men escaped across these very waters in a large rowboat...500 miles of ocean in a 20 feet boat to south georgia island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Sh ... at_journey

pretty old school stuff...

[Singha]

at conclusion of IFR on monday all 54 ships sailed out together as traditionally visiting ships are escorted out , there was a passage exercises before dispersal

[tsarkar]

Lots of posts, so let me respond one at a time

I though the torpedoes carried on the decks of ships these days is a LWT and not HWT , which seem to be carried more by subs.

4 x Project 15B - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 15A - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 17 - Fitted for but not with 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 1135.6 Batch 2 - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 1135.6 Batch 1 - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT Russian DTA-53-11356 launchers amidships
3 x Type 15 - 1 x 5 533 mm HWT Russian launchers amidships
5 x Type 61M - 1 x 5 533 mm HWT Russian launchers amidships
4 x Type 28 - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
4 x Type 1241PE - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT Russian launchers amidships

Presently SET-65KE torpedoes are used that would shortly be replaced by Varunastra.

The days of firing a HWT out to 30 nm range from a surface ship is gone I would think and that is where the rocket topped with a LWT comes in handy, reaches the target much faster than a HWT fired from a ship would.

A ship's ASW fire control system cues the torpedo that after launch aligns itself towards the submarine and when within range, activates its own sonar.

A ship's ASW fire control system feeds missile INS with coordinates. Before splashdown, the missile activates air brakes and parachutes the torpedo in the water. The torpedo circles in a scan pattern until it detects the submarine as shown below




No 3 refers to the air brake

The advantage of a ship launched HWT torpedo is that its cued right from launch unlike missile torpedo that has to undertake circular scan to acquire target submarine as shown above.

So I would conclude that within 20-30 km range, HWT is better. For longer ranges, helicopter launched LWT or ASW missile is better, provided cueing is available.

[Aditya G]

tsarkar, i will put in a question as well:

Aside from RBU or L&T IRL - does IN use depth charges nowadays? If so, which company/models?

How was the experience with Bofors ASW mortar?

[tsarkar]

In the IN, is there a regular technical audit to see if the sonar(s) in ships are working according to specifications? Who is responsible for this maintenance and/or repair? The IN engineering arm or the OEM?

IN Electrical Branch is responsible for sonars. Onboard and harbor maintenance is done by Electrical Branch personnel. OEM is responsible for overhauls & upgrades. Presently sonars used APSOH, HUMSA, HUMSA NG, HUMVAD & USHUS are built by BEL.

[tsarkar]

Does IN use depth charges nowadays? If so, which company/models?

British Mark 11 Depth Charge is used by both India & Pakistan manufactured by respective ordnance factories for their Chetak & Seakings, seen below retrofitted in one of their Z-9 helicopters


There are Russian DCs for Kamovs, Il-38 & Tu-142 as well.

How was the experience with Bofors ASW mortar?

Good, though expensive compared to Russian RBU-6000 that was standardized later.

[K_Rohit]

Lots of posts, so let me respond one at a time

I though the torpedoes carried on the decks of ships these days is a LWT and not HWT , which seem to be carried more by subs.

4 x Project 15B - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 15A - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 17 - Fitted for but not with 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 1135.6 Batch 2 - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
3 x Type 1135.6 Batch 1 - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT Russian DTA-53-11356 launchers amidships
3 x Type 15 - 1 x 5 533 mm HWT Russian launchers amidships
5 x Type 61M - 1 x 5 533 mm HWT Russian launchers amidships
4 x Type 28 - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT L&T ITTL launchers amidships
4 x Type 1241PE - 2 x 2 533 mm HWT Russian launchers amidships

Presently SET-65KE torpedoes are used that would shortly be replaced by Varunastra.

tsarkar- I could google. but can you give the class names for the ships above. Not as familiar with the "Type XX" classification

[Philip]

Looking at the superb pic of the Kol DDG ,a simple rearrangement of weaponry on the bows would make room for more SAMs/SSMs.The RBUs should be shifted to a position forward of the main gun at the bows,with the main gun moved back a bit.This was a method on some Sov warships.Either one or two RBUs forward after the bows,main gun,16-24 BMos/SSM silos and upto 32 SAM silos,B-8 whatever forward of the bridge where the RBUs are at present. The same no of SAMs could be located aft of the stacks,and perhaps a gun/missile combo improving upon the 30MM gatlings.

The ships in line remind one of the famous paintings of epic naval battles in the age of sail,Trafalgar,etc. with the "ships of the line" shown in formation.Great sight.

[John]

Philip rbu 6000 has large below deck reload mechanism and would not be possible to shift it forward of the ship as you suggested. As for your other point yes I believe single pair of ak 630 will be replaced by point defense sam system similar to delhi.

Also pictures display the size of barak 8 vls system clearly they are much bigger than barak 1.

[Philip]

John ck some Sov DDG designs which had the RBUs on the foredeck.Must ck old JFS vols.

[Aditya G]

The solution may to be adopt 1 RBU system instead of 2, like in Talwar class. Replace the RBU position with 2x76 mm cannons like Horizon class.



Keep only 2x30mm gatlings aft

[Aditya G]

Indian ASW Rocket-60 and 140 mm rocket for WM-18 MBRL.

Former has range out to 5Km while later has to 10Km.

Why don't we make longer range depth charges? Say something that is fired from a 76 mm cannon?

[Viv S]

The solution may to be adopt 1 RBU system instead of 2, like in Talwar class. Replace the RBU position with 2x76 mm cannons like Horizon class.

Or better yet replace the RBU altogether with the Paket-NK as the Russians have done on the Gorshkov class.

[Aditya G]

Sir RBU is here to stay in the Navy in its L&T IRL guise as it is going to be on Project 15 Bravos as well. If it aint broke ....

For Philipji. A lot of the subsystems are already in service with IN, though clearly you cant have it all in such a small ship. There is only one CWiz mount and missiles are Iglas. Having said that it may be worthwhile for IN to develop an automated Igla launcher. Cheap and cool.

[Cybaru]

That image is interesting. Dhruv sporting torpedo on the left side.

[andy B]

^^^ thats a lynx saar not dhruv with what looks like a sea skua based on livery and weapons looks like bartania navy. Will be replaced by the lynx wildcat going ahead.

[John]

John ck some Sov DDG designs which had the RBUs on the foredeck.Must ck old JFS vols.

Not sure what you mean arent rbu 1000 looked in aft for Sovremenny.

[srai]

John ck some Sov DDG designs which had the RBUs on the foredeck.Must ck old JFS vols.

Not sure what you mean arent rbu 1000 looked in aft for Sovremenny.

It all depends on how many reload rounds you want below deck.

[Singha]

both the RBU could go in place of the main gun or 1 moved aft and the vacated positions indeed mount 2 x Oto guns for useful anti missile defence.

[John]

Srai,

Those are different Rbu 6000 designs i believe first is one designed by splav and second one is by larsen and tourbo, the latter is fitted on Kolkata. They can differentiated by the base mount and the layout of the rockets.

[Austin]

Janes : Dassault pitches Rafale M for Indian Navy's IAC-II

http://www.janes.com/article/57966/dass ... y-s-iac-ii

In a presentation to the IN in New Delhi on 29 January, Dassault executives stressed the benefits of operating twin-engine Rafale Ms alongside the 36 Rafale Cs the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in advanced negotiations to acquire in flyaway condition. They emphasised that the 'commonality factor' in deploying Rafale Ms would operationally benefit the IN in sourcing spares and accessing the IAF's maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) facilities for the French fighters, industry sources have told IHS Jane's .

[nits]

Sorry if this is already discussed before... but can someone please point to me any discussion we had on comparison between Rafael Navy v/s Navala LCA and why we believe we need Rafael for Navy and areas where Naval LCA have limitation compared to Rafael...

[John]

Sorry if this is already discussed before... but can someone please point to me any discussion we had on comparison between Rafael Navy v/s Navala LCA and why we believe we need Rafael for Navy and areas where Naval LCA have limitation compared to Rafael...

Take it with grain of salt. Its being pushed by Dassault and indirectly by iaf which would love get its cost down. But navy has no interest in it apart from using it as leverage to reduce Mig29k costs.

Main problem is Dassault has made no guarantee they can operate from ski jump and navy would likely have to give $$ to get certified and tweaked for it. Which in the end would make Rafale M in par with F 22 in terms of acquisition costs.

[Philip]

Ck the PLAN's 054 DDG.They have 2 RBUs forward,but smaller ones. Movuing the RBUs forward will open more space for silos for SSMs and SAMs in "B" and "C" positions,if one considers the main gun as "A".

India denies the report about joint patrolling,but the US State Dept. says "at this time..."!
So who runs the Indian Navy,India or the US State Dept? It is obvious that the US is pushing for India to join the anti-China mil-group consisting of Oz,Japan,SoKo and the Phillipnes. The GOI should be exceptionally wary of being inadvertently dragged into a spat with China orchestrated by the US or involving the US and/or its allies with China.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 938927.cms

No Indo-US naval patrol in South China Sea, defence ministry says

TNN | Feb 11, 2016, 04.00 AM IST

India, of course, continues to be wary of China’s rapid military modernisation and its aggressive behaviour in the Asia-Pacific.

NEW DELHI: The defence ministry has denied reports that India and US have held talks about conducting joint naval patrols, which in the future could even extend to the contentious South China Sea, where Beijing is locked in bitter territorial disputes with its neighbours.
.
"Such reports are highly speculative. Whatever concrete bilateral discussions took place between defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his American counter Ash Carter in the US are reflected in the joint statement issued on December 11," said a highly-placed MoD source on Wednesday.
.
Apart from expressing an intent to "maintain the strong momentum in bilateral security and defence engagement", and further expand maritime cooperation in the years ahead, the joint statement had welcomed Indian participation in the Rim-of-Pacific multilateral naval exercise and Red Flag multilateral air combat exercise in the US this year.
.
Moreover, India's stated policy is that it does and will join any international military operation only under the blue flag of United Nations. Consequently, while we do coordinate with the ongoing multilateral policing of the Gulf of Aden, we conduct our own anti-piracy patrols there," said the source.

India, of course, continues to be wary of China's rapid military modernisation and its aggressive behaviour in the Asia-Pacific, but wants to be seen as "a neutral player" in the geopolitical jostling underway in the region between Washington and Beijing.
.
.But it has obliquely criticised Beijing's strongarm tactics in the South China Sea, holding that disputes between China and countries like Philippines, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and others should be resolved in a peaceful manner in accordance with international laws.

India has also repeatedly stressed the need for all to respect the freedom of navigation in international waters, right of passage and overflight, unimpeded commerce, and access to resources in accordance with the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea.

[Philip]

The foll report will tell you why the highest priority in Indian defence should eb the acquisition of a large fleet of N-subs,both ICBM armed SSBNs and SSGN/SSNs.This is the gold std. of a nation's status and gets you a seat at the high table.Nothing else will. Unless India has the power to strike any nuclear nation with its own ICBMs,we will be treated like servile lackeys.Look at how the little British ex-empire is being propped up by Uncle Sam to play an "outsized" role in world affairs. The 21st century version of Teddy R's famous saying,"speak softly and carry a big d*ck!" So the Mron-of-Cam's little d*ck need "uplifting" by Trident according to Dr.Ash C.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016 ... -secretary

UK needs Trident so it can play 'outsized' role in world affairs, says US defence secretary

Ash Carter says it is important the UK has military might that backs up ‘its moral standing and its historical standing’ in world *(invading,looting,raping,torturing,massacring,culture eradication,slaving...right upto today!)

Hms Vanguard Royal Navy Submarine
US defence secretary Ash Carter said the Trident nuclear deterrent enabled the UK to back up its global standing. Photograph: Kevin Holt/ANL/Rex/Shutterstock

Saturday 13 February 2016 07.32 GMT
Britain must keep its Trident nuclear deterrent to maintain its “outsized” role in the world, the US defence secretary, Ash Carter, has said.

Carter said the nuclear-armed submarines were an “important part of the deterrent structure of Nato”.
MPs are expected to vote on government plans to renew the weapons system, an issue on which Labour is split.

The Ministry of Defence estimates that acquiring four new submarines to carry the Trident deterrent would cost £31bn over the course of the 20-year procurement programme, with a further £10bn set aside to meet any additional unexpected cost increases.

Carter told the BBC that Trident enabled Britain to “continue to play that outsized role on the global stage that it does because of its moral standing and its historical standing”.

“It’s important that the military power matches that standing and so we’re very supportive of it,” he added.

“We depend upon the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom depends on us, that’s part of the special relationship. We build Joint Strike fighters together, we build Trident missiles together.”

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn favours unilateral disarmament but faces a showdown with some of his shadow cabinet, including shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn, who said he believed in multilateral action.

Shadow home secretary Andy Burnham, a supporter of Trident renewal, said the party’s split “may be impossible to reconcile”.

In the House of Commons earlier this month, Julian Lewis, the chairman of the defence select committee, questioned why the prime minister was delaying a vote on renewal, which he said had been expected within weeks.

Commons leader Chris Grayling said a debate would be held “in due course” but did not give a date.

[Aditya G]

Ck the PLAN's 054 DDG.They have 2 RBUs forward,but smaller ones. Movuing the RBUs forward will open more space for silos for SSMs and SAMs in "B" and "C" positions,if one considers the main gun as "A".
....

Why go to PLAN? Closer home aboard Zulfiqar class corvettes:



http://zzwave.com/plaboard/uploads/2014 ... 6vliyr.jpg

These are equivalent to RBU-1200 and RBU-1500 systems which does not have any reloads, and thus minimum deck pentration.



We have RBU-1200s aboard Abhay class corvettes - next to the foc'sle:



Is Indian Navy happy with that? Maybe not as the preference seems to be towards the full spec RBU-5000.

[John]

Rbu 1200 has couple disadvantages:
- Only 5 rounds.
- No reload mechanism.
- Limited range of only around 1 km.
- Launcher cannot traverse meaning you have to position the ship so it can fire on the target. Where as Rbu 6000 can traverse 180 deg.

As i mentioned earlier notice the newer rbu 6000 mounts look more cleaner.

http://i.ndtvimg.com/i/2015-09/ins-koch ... 495447.jpg

[SSridhar]

Navy looking to establish base near Chennai - The Hindu

Even as it is gradually expanding its fleet, the Navy is looking for land near the State capital to establish a base as marine traffic in Chennai port is steadily increasing.

Though the Navy had considered an option near Muttukadu along East Coast Road, it did not happen for various reasons. “Following the request made by the Navy, the State government is looking at various options to identify a site. We have seven ships now and four more would join the base in Chennai this year and another a year later. We are an expanding Navy and we need space,” a Navy officer said.

For establishing a separate base, a minimum of 100 acres are required, however, if the land is located adjacent to an operational port, the necessity could be less, he said.

At present, ships and other assets belonging to the Navy and the Coast Guard are berthed in jetties allotted to them. But, the overall control of the campus is with the Chennai Port Trust management.

“Every time we need to berth a ship, we need to seek space from the port management and it would be allotted to us unlike in our base in Visakhapatnam, where the Navy has its own jetties and separate entrance. Though the port management in Chennai has been prioritising our needs, it would be make a huge difference if we had our own base,” another officer said.

Though there are other bases of the Navy in the State, they all house aviation assets and are not located along the coast. Even in Forward Operation Base (FOB) at Thoothukudi, the Navy ships are being berthed in jetties under the control of V.O. Chidambaranar port

. “We are planning to have our own jetty in Thoothukudi soon,” he said.

[Karthik S]

With Kattupalli near by, it should be easier.

[Austin]

With an eye on China, India sends aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya to Male

[Austin]

India in talks for 2nd nuke sub lease: Russian envoy

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... envoy.html

[Neela]

From a SLankan website
Srilanka tipped to be first Export Customer for LCA-Tejas?

[Philip]

The smaller warships would not have room for reload infra for forward placement of RBUs,but in our larger designs,there would be ample room available. This would release more space as said forward of the bridge for LR SAMs/SSMs. There are also other ASW weapon systems like Paket-NK.Medvedka-2 (20+KM range),etc.,that can be located amidships.These would provide a third/4th ASW capability after an RBU,Medvedka,ASW TTs and ASW helos.Medvedka,etc.,can eveb be used on smaller corvette class vessels,even the planned 750T shallow water ASW corvette class.

We need more sustained R&D in UUVs and USVs.
Meet ACTUV, DARPA's 132-Foot Unmanned Submarine Hunter
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/13333 ... hunter.htm

By Aaron Mamiit, Tech Times | February 13,
DARPA's ACTUV

DARPA is launching the Anti-Submarine Warfare Continuous Trail Unmanned Vessel, or the ACTUV, on its maiden mission in April. The 132-foot, 140-ton drone is capable of hunting stealth submarines.
(Photo : DARPA)

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, better known as DARPA, is launching a 132-foot long drone that hunts for submarines in two months.

The news is even made better (or weirder, depending on how you look at it) by the fact that the submarine-hunting drone will be unmanned.

Named the Anti-Submarine Warfare Continuous Trail Unmanned Vessel and given the nickname of ACTUV, the massive drone will be carrying out its maiden mission of tracking stealth submarines autonomously on April 7.

According to DARPA, the ACTUV program revolves around three main goals.

The first goal is to develop a stealth submarine seeker that will not need humans to be onboard, necessitating a design that changes a lot of things about the traditional vessel. This would also lead to submarine hunters that are smaller and cheaper than previous designs.

The second goal is to advance unmanned maritime vessel technology to be able to carry out missions over long periods of time and distances with little supervision needed from humans.

The third and last goal of the program is to have ACTUV use non-conventional sensor systems for tracking down stealth submarines.

At a media event, DARPA director Arati Prabhakar and deputy director Steve Walker presented the ACTUV, with Walker adding that the drone could also have other roles aside from hunting submarines such as providing supplies to other vessels, carrying out logistics and detecting undersea explosives.

The 132-foot ACTUV will weigh 140 tons and will be bigger than most autonomous ships, but still smaller compared to most vessels of the U.S. Navy.

The ACTUV will not be entering military service right away though, as over its first 18 months in operation, it will be focused on long-range journeys for testing its capabilities and working out any technical difficulties that it could encounter.

The unmanned submarine hunter is not the only thing that the agency is busy with though. Late last month, reports revealed that DARPA is developing an implantable chip which would connect the human brain to a computer for facilitating data delivery. The chip's military application would be for troops to acquire information faster on the position of the enemy and the instructions of superiors.

Rise of the cybermen what?!

[Aditya G]

That is not P 15b the Brahmos VLS cells are stacked horizontally not vertically as per computer rendered model displayed during Visakhapatnam launch. Also the turret in model does not resemble oto 127 mm.

Sir, confirmed as Project 15B

[srai]

Side-by-side P-15A vs P-15B model comparison:


Full - P-15A


Full - P-15B



Front - P-15A


Front - P-15B


Differences:

• RBU-6000 mount different
• VLS layout slightly different and closer together
• Main gun different
• Bridge shape and windows layout different

Rear - P-15A


Rear - P-15B


Differences:

• Top of helo hanger different - no round sensors
• VLS layout slightly different and closer together
• White Flotation Barrels layout different

[Singha]

to me main diff looks like 48 or 40 vs 32 barak8 and same for barak1 as well in the back .
the brahmos cellcount is also increased by some 8 more I think with more efficient packing arrangement.
this opens up room for a mixed load of say 8 brahmos and 16 nirbhays to permit some long range land attack role.