Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Jun 2016 11:52

Stunning revelations as to how the French allegedly tricked the wizards...sorry, "dummkopfs of Oz" into winning the great Oz sub race!

Oz media alleges that the French,DCNS,told the Oz navy that the German subs "were noisy",even though the subs offered were a stretched design of the U-214 which had never taken to water! The dummkofs of Oz never bothered to check with the SoKo navy whose Greman U-boats,U-214s had run rings around the USN's carriers,"sinking" them several times in exercises. If the German U-boats were so noisy ask analysts,how come they "sank" US carriers at will? Was their a sleight of hand at play here? Seriously,which navy will listen to the criticism of a competitior's product without ascertaining whether it was true. Well the Oz navy appear to have been conned by smart salesmen from DCNS!

The entire contest speaks very lowly of the OZ technical evaluation of the contesting subs and from their track record ability to operate subs,where their Collins class (the most expensive diesel sub type ever),can hardly stay operational despite billions being spent on modifications.Oz lacks enough submariners and serious doubts are being expressed whether they will be able to operate successfully these 12 French boats to come,which are conventional versions of their Barracuda N-sub.

The biggest joke is that the French now want to team up with the defeated Germans on the same deal,otensibly to "consolidate " European sub sales dominance! Why? So that their subs can become as quiet as the U-boats? :mrgreen:

The moral of this story is that India should take a long,hard,serious look at German U-boats instead of building more Scorpenes,which are inferior of French subs to come for Oz. The French promised Oz that they would not part with advanced sub tech for India in order to win the deal. US exposes also say that the US wants Oz subs to monitor and neutralise the Indian sub fleet. The "5-Eyes" nations (US,UK,Oz,Canada and NZ) have their own very private security /intel agreements despite membership of other entities like NATO,etc.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_23370 » 07 Jun 2016 20:16

Is it possible the Kolkota carries 16 additional brahmos that can be loaded into the ULV after the existing ones are fired. Remmeber someone on Indiadefence claiming that. Just speculation onlee.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby srai » 07 Jun 2016 20:47

^^^

Nope. Have you seen the size of Brahmos? Each one weighs 3000kg and 8.4m long. You need pretty big cranes to load them into the silos. Try doing that out in the ocean ;)

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karthik S » 07 Jun 2016 20:57

We sure there can be only one missile per cell? I haven't seen the entire VLS module that's fit into Kolkata class. Is it possible to have 2 missile per silo in which the second missile is loaded after the first one is fired?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_23370 » 07 Jun 2016 21:03

I know vertically loading the missiles is impossible. Just wondering if there was a kind of revolver mechanism, but then that would take up internal space.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Kakarat » 07 Jun 2016 21:11

I dont think its possible to have two missiles per silo, especially in the case of Brahmos since its a huge missile.

India seriously needs to develop a smaller missile to equip corvettes and missile boats in numbers. the Brahmos-NG should be expedited and also consider something similar to Kh-35 or the NSM

It can also help in export since not all countries can buy expensive systems like Brahmos

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2016 11:04

Another MiG-29K for the Indian Navy in Zhukovsky

Image

Today, June 7, 2016, was seen MiG-29K (draft 9.41) number 833, izgototovlen factory RAC "MiG" in Lukhovitsy and is designed for 303 AE (Hans) of the Indian Navy. The aircraft no markings and flag registration and is in LII. Gromov in Zhukovsky. It is assumed that the recently received and color that will go for a permanent home in India.


http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/78759/

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2016 13:41

Some se*y bird what?

The sale of BMos to Vietnam appears to have been OK'd by both BMos partners.L&T are alkso supposed to be building a few OPVs for the Viet navy.BMos export will be a huge first with more to come to "friendly nations" of both Ru and India.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2016 12:43

The foll is a very shallow and poorly researched piece.There are so many flaws in it.Firstly,the US hasn't built a diesel boat for decades! The USN in true Rickover fashion,strongly rejects any attempt to build diesel boats,even for Taiwan for fear that the politicos wlll force the same upon the USN. has the globe's two largest oceans on either seaboard and the Gulf of Mexico in the south. There are virtually no "chokepoints" where diesel boats would prove deadly.Though an old Swedish diesel boat ran rings round US carriers in exercises,"sinking" carriers at will,given the USN's global expeditionary role,N-boats are its best option.Unlimited range,high speed,no refuelling for the lifespan of the boat and large enough to accommodate a huge package of LRCMs and other weaponry.USN N-subs will also feature drones that can be recovered at sea.

Secondly,the IN already has 3 different designs of diesel boats in operation,Russian/Soviet,French and German.These nations are producing v.advanced versions of their U-boats at great speed and at affordable cost too.The IN acquiring an unproven tech of a new design which would take sev years to develop and build,etc. can't wait that long and frankly does not require it as it is already building Scorpenes, about to build 6 SSNs locally,may lease another Akula-2 and build at home in the future at least a dozen diesel AIP boats. The thought of the IN possessing a large qty of diesel boats for the IOR intrigues me though.Still affordable.

http://us.blastingnews.com/world/2016/0 ... 56693.html
How US and India can checkmate China with low profile diesel electric submarines
After South China Sea fiasco, it’s time to fasten the belt in Indian Ocean

United States President Barack Obama (Wikipedia)
Modi arrives in US

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has arrived in the US on Monday on a three day visit to garner support for the entry into the NSG (Nuclear Suppliers Group). While US wants India’s rise as a regional power in Asia to counter China’s economic and military superpower ambition, China is hell bent to nullify this ploy.

Earlier, India tossed the chance to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council and so also missed out on becoming the member of NSG at the right time. Still, it is better to be late than never. The chemistry between India and US has dramatically changed in the last few years. Narendra Modi was denied a visa to enter the US when he was chief minister of Gujarat in 2007, post Gujarat riot. But, now the time has changed and India’s Prime Minister Modi has been invited to address the joint session of the US Congress.

Forging ahead with the Indo-US friendship, a number of issues from climate change, to defense cooperation, to a number of other things. But, the US can play a bigger role to augment Obama’s ‘Pivot to Asia’ policy if it can supplement the much needed defense hardware and technical know-how to India.

China's position

‘New assertive China’ is flexing its muscle in the South China Sea. Even the Chinese Admiral Sun Jianguo has recently reiterated at Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore that ‘China has no fear of trouble.' After strengthening China’s position in the South China Sea, the days won’t be far when its nuclear powered submarines, as well as its naval ships will patrol the Indian Ocean under the pretext of curbing piracy, to name one. China is likely to use the Gadwar port of Pakistan once it becomes operational and the frequency of Chinese submarines will increase many a fold in the Indian Ocean in the coming days and pose a threat to the strategic assets of both India and the US.

To counter China in the Indian Ocean, the US needs to help India strengthen its naval fleet, especially the submarine fleet. China has more than 70 submarines (the exact number is not yet known) in its navy out of which more than 50 submarines are diesel/electric powered. As compared to China, India has only 13 submarines in its fleet.

Though the nuclear powered submarines are capable of patrolling a long distance at any stretch, the beauty of low-profile diesel electric submarines is its stealthy movement; hence the detection rate also goes down. Also, the reduced price tag of diesel/electric subs as compared to nuclear submarines will be helpful to increase the number of fleets within a tight budget. At present, India can’t afford to match China’s number of nuclear powered submarines, but with a staggering number of diesel/electric submarines in its naval fleet, India can counter balance the future supremacy of the Chinese Navy in the Indian Ocean. For this to happen, the US needs to help India achieve a strong submarine fleet apart from providing it the much needed submarine hunting aircrafts and naval ships.

Though the US has stopped operating and manufacturing these submarines, it can still reboot the project to counterbalance China in the Indian Ocean. Though the diesel electric submarines of India can’t foray frequently in the South China Sea, still with the edge in the numbers game, it will have superiority in the Indian Ocean.

The future

India and the US can manufacture diesel/electric submarines in Modi’s ‘Make in India’ program and also can export to countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, South Korea, Malaysia, Thailand, Brunei and Australia. If Modi’s ‘Make in India’ and Obama’s ‘Pivot to Asia’ ideologies join hands, then Indo-US joint effort will be able to counter China effectively in the Indian ocean.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Kersi D » 09 Jun 2016 13:21

Philip wrote:The foll is a very shallow and poorly researched piece.There are so many flaws in it.Firstly,the US hasn't built a diesel boat for decades! The USN in true Rickover fashion,strongly rejects any attempt to build diesel boats,even for Taiwan for fear that the politicos wlll force the same upon the USN. has the globe's two largest oceans on either seaboard and the Gulf of Mexico in the south. There are virtually no "chokepoints" where diesel boats would prove deadly.Though an old Swedish diesel boat ran rings round US carriers in exercises,"sinking" carriers at will,given the USN's global expeditionary role,N-boats are its best option.Unlimited range,high speed,no refuelling for the lifespan of the boat and large enough to accommodate a huge package of LRCMs and other weaponry.USN N-subs will also feature drones that can be recovered at sea.

Secondly,the IN already has 3 different designs of diesel boats in operation,Russian/Soviet,French and German.These nations are producing v.advanced versions of their U-boats at great speed and at affordable cost too.The IN acquiring an unproven tech of a new design which would take sev years to develop and build,etc. can't wait that long and frankly does not require it as it is already building Scorpenes, about to build 6 SSNs locally,may lease another Akula-2 and build at home in the future at least a dozen diesel AIP boats. The thought of the IN possessing a large qty of diesel boats for the IOR intrigues me though.Still affordable.


Philip. I do not understand how a diesel boat with a submerged speed of 4-5 knots "ran rings" around a US carrier of say CBG, running at 15 - 20 knots atleast ???

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby brar_w » 09 Jun 2016 14:27

One also has to understand the context of exercises in general. Without it the entire point is meaningless. At times, the entire purposes of a multi-dimensional, multi-national exercise is to train and test out various techniques, tactics and procedures, and you end up in situations that you would expect if one were taking a new operational concept and testing it out. That is the true 'learning value' one gets out of these. If your point was to protect the air-craft carrier at all costs, you would simply flood an exercise with all your anti-sub capability you got, as you would do in a real world scenario, but doing that over and over again has little training value when you can try out various other things against a threat you normally don't train with. You out yourself in tough situations and then try to get out of them. That's how you really learn i.e. by giving the red forces, overwhelming capability advantage if that is what gets you the best training.

One can find umpteen instances where a T-38, has shot down virtually every combat fighter in the US and NATO (even the F-22, with HUD imagery no less), does that mean its superior or that it can do it in combat? Same applies to the sea and under-sea component. Most of the time, training and large multi-national exercises are about validating tactics, and learning from each other and these inform the further development of these operational concepts. Survivability of a carrier is a function of your overall defensive capability, as well as the ability to deliver offensive effects from the carrier at stand off distances since that is still the absolute best way to obtain enhanced survivability (No increase in ESSM load will match the defensive advantage a 500 nautical mile stand off distances provides etc..)..At the end its about the caliber of your sailors, and airmen that support it as well.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby hnair » 09 Jun 2016 14:54

Philip wrote:Secondly,the IN already has 3 different designs of diesel boats in operation,Russian/Soviet,French and German.These nations are producing v.advanced versions of their U-boats at great speed and at affordable cost too.The IN acquiring an unproven tech of a new design which would take sev years to develop and build,etc.


Your post is not factoring in the US' depth in science and technology and their continuing dominance.

At this point, the US leads the world in Li-battery tech, metallurgy, welding, milling, high-density engines and of course computing. Bringing this together for a hydrocarbon sub is going to be a challenging program management (again a field the US leads) excersize. But there are enough American tech integrators/prime-contractors who can do this with ease.

These sort of statements are similar to "Israelis lead the world in drone tech, even over americans" that we heard till as late as 2005. When a market arose (Af-pak) the americans effortlessly swatted the Israelis aside with a slew of highly advanced drones. Drones that were skilfully woven into the war-fighting fronts, sometimes from across the world.

At this point IAF would go instantly for a large number of Reapers or GHawks, over an Eitan, if that was doable. Not a big fan of EMALs or F35s, because India does not have a need at thispoint, but drones, subs and sensors are something that India should work with US

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 10 Jun 2016 21:27

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0268407809

Eastern fleet Sahyadri class frigate in Sasebo naval base, Nagasaki prefecture. Malabar2016

Image

What Indo-Pacific means: JS Hyuga leads IN flotilla- Sahyadri, Satpura, Shakti, Kirch in Pacific Ocean. Malabar2016.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 11 Jun 2016 04:57

NEWS18 » INDIA 1-MIN READ
2 Dead, 2 Injured in Toxic Gas Leak on Board INS Vikramaditya
Shreya Dhoundial
First published: June 10, 2016, 9:07 PM IST | Updated: 8 hours ago
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2 Dead, 2 Injured in Toxic Gas Leak on Board INS Vikramaditya
File photo of INS Vikramaditya. (Reuters)
New Delhi: Two people were killed and and two others injured in a toxic gas leak on board the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya on Friday.
One sailor and one civilian were killed in the leak that happened in the sewage treatment plant while the ship was undergoing maintenance repairs at Karwar.
The dead have been identified as Shipwright Artificer Rakesh Kumar and Mohandas Kolambkar, an employee of M/s Royal Marine.
The condition of the other two personnel is stable. The Navy has ordered an inquiry into the incident and action has been taken to render the compartment and area on the ship safe.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Nikhil T » 15 Jun 2016 10:04

Reuters: Chinese spy ship shadowing USN Carrier in Malabar exercise
OKINAWA: A Chinese observation ship shadowed the powerful US aircraft carrier, John C Stennis, in the Western Pacific on Wednesday, a Japanese official said, joining warships from Japan and India in drills close to waters Beijing considers its backyard.
The show of American naval power comes as Japan and the United States worry Beijing will look to extend its influence into the Western Pacific with submarines and surface vessels as it pushes its territorial claims in the neighbouring South China Sea .
Beijing views access to the Pacific as vital both as a supply line to the rest of the world's oceans and for the projection of its naval power.
The 100,000 ton Stennis, which carries F-18 fighter jets, joined nine other naval ships including a Japanese helicopter carrier and Indian frigates in seas off the Japanese Okinawan island chain. Sub-hunting patrol planes launched from bases in Japan are also participating in the joint annual exercise dubbed Malabar.
The Stennis, which has been followed by the Chinese ship since patrolling in the South China Sea, will sail apart from the other ships, acting as a "decoy" to draw it away from the eight-day naval exercise, a Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force officer said, declining to be identified because he was not authorized to talk to the media.
Blocking China's unfettered access to the Western Pacific are the 200 islands stretching from Japan's main islands through the East China Sea to within 100 kilometres of Taiwan. Japan is fortifying those islands with radar stations and anti-ship missile batteries.
By joining the drill Japan is deepening alliances it hopes will help counter growing Chinese power. Tensions between Beijing and Tokyo recently jumped after a Chinese warship for the first time sailed within 24 miles (38 km) of contested islands in the East China Sea.
The outcrops known as the Senkaku in Japan and the Diaoyu in China lie 220 km (137 miles) northeast of Taiwan.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2016 11:18

HN,if it is N-sub tech,yes,one can acquire much from the US but it hasn't built a single diesel/AIP sub for decades! Here the other Western nations and Russia have a huge advantage. The USN has had major problems in tracking diesel boats including the venerable Kilo nicknamed "black holes",whose first variants appeared way back in the '80s.Secondly,US milware comes in at v.expensive prices .A late model Kilo 636.3 on order/delivery for Ru,Vietnam,maybe Indonesia too,costs just upwards of $300+ a boat compared with $550-600M for a single Scorpene! Kilos are also built at the rate of one every 2 years.Armed with the Klub series of missiles,they can attack surface vessels,subs and land targets upto 2500km when in Russian colours firing Kalibir missiles as demonstrated in Syria. Due to MTCR regulations, in IN colours the range of Klub missiles is restricted to 300KM.Once we have perfected Nirbhaty,our subs of all types should be able to carry them.

The IN should possess at least two types of conventional AIP subs featuring the best from east and west,while we perfect our desi designs for SSBNs and N-attack boats. In fcat we should embark upon designing a variety of naval N-reactors for subs and surface combatants which could be used aboard large capital ships like carriers,etc. Thus far only Russia has been forthcoming in providing us with N-sub and N-plant tech.None of the other Western nations have done so.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 15 Jun 2016 11:20

it is very instructive to take a map of the pacific ocean and rotate it around and look at it from a 'sitting in beijing' perspective. china is literally blocked in by the island chains of japan down to the philippines. really gives a different perspective from the regular mercator projections

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2016 11:23

pics have been published of a IN diver demolitions team training off a boat in japan harbour with a japan-usn team using a ROV feeding back into a complex looking terminal.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2016 12:35

The Chinese over a decade ago published their "3 island chains" strategy for dominating the Asia-Pacific. They have now almost finished consolidating their "first island chain" domination with their land grab in the ICS,caring a hoot about international opinion.The Chinese attitude is "possession is 9/10ths of the law".Therefore,evicting them will have to be done by military means as any other way is practically impossible given their economic tendrails which have compromised western economies across the globe.
AS someone once said,the "Chinese will only stop their continuing territorial conquests when they meet hard steel". Just as they claimed Arunachal Pradesh as "Sothern Tibet",tomorrow they will say that Indonesia is part of the S.Chinese archipelago!

Therefore,their should be a concerted diplomatic effort to warn China that if its atoll-grabbing and military threat to Asia increases,nations may break off diplomatic relations with it and recognise Taiwaan and Tibet's independence. In fact India should hold covert meetings with the leadership of affected nations and form a bloc which in the future will act together in concert..
Of course beefing up the military strength of the threatened nations is a pre-requisite. "Power flows from the barrel of a gun",said the Great Helmsman!

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby malushahi » 15 Jun 2016 19:04

in other news

Chinese spy ship enters Japan’s territorial waters for second time since end of WWII

While Beijing’s intentions remain unclear, Defense Minister Gen Nakatani said that the Chinese ship entered the waters after following two Indian ships participating in the trilateral Malabar drills. Japan, the U.S. and India have been conducting those exercises in the waters east of Okinawa, near the Senkakus, since last Friday.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby sudeepj » 17 Jun 2016 20:11

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 663565.ece

French Scorpenes will replace Russian Kilo class vessels as the mainstay of the Navy’s conventional submarine fleet in a few years. Mazgaon Dock Ltd., Mumbai, commissioned a second submarine assembly workshop on Saturday. Six Scorpenes are under construction in the first one.

Second workshop
“This second workshop will cater to building additional submarines as and when the government takes a decision. We will be in a position to quickly begin work once approved,” an MDL official said.

Having once abandoned the German HDW submarine line in the past, government sources said they were determined not to lose the technical expertise and skilled manpower gained from construction of the six Scorpenes. In view of that, the number of additional Scorpenes could go beyond nine, one official said.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who inaugurated the facility, said that overall level of indigenisation in the next line of submarines “must be substantially higher” compared with the Scorpenes which have around 35 per cent indigenous content.

He had already stated on several occasions that the government would order two or three additional Scorpenes to keep the production line running and maintain the force levels on the fleet.

The new assembly workshop built at a cost of Rs.153 crore is a pre-engineered building structure to handle construction of five submarines simultaneously, MDL officials said. It can be used to construct additional Scorpenes or the new line of submarines under Project-75I as and when it is selected.

But the Request for Proposal (RFP) for P-75I is held up for want of clarity on Strategic Partnerships under the new Defence Procurement Procedure. The proposal from the Ministry intended to promote domestic manufacturing capabilities in critical areas has generated a mixed response and consultations are on to get a consensus. With current platforms fast ageing, Scorpenes will play a major role in ensuring fleet strength.

The first of the Scorpenes, Kalvari, is currently undergoing sea trials and is scheduled to be commissioned in October and the remaining are expected to be rolled out at nine-month intervals. This means that the present line is occupied till 2020, officials said and the new assembly line will speed up construction of additional submarines to meet timelines. Incidentally the Scorpenes will roll out without their major weapon, heavy weight torpedoes, which are caught up due to allegations of corruption in other defence deals.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 17 Jun 2016 22:49

Philip wrote:Stunning revelations as to how the French allegedly tricked the wizards...sorry, "dummkopfs of Oz" into winning the great Oz sub race!

Oz media alleges that the French,DCNS,told the Oz navy that the German subs "were noisy",even though the subs offered were a stretched design of the U-214 which had never taken to water! The dummkofs of Oz never bothered to check with the SoKo navy whose Greman U-boats,U-214s had run rings around the USN's carriers,"sinking" them several times in exercises. If the German U-boats were so noisy ask analysts,how come they "sank" US carriers at will? Was their a sleight of hand at play here? Seriously,which navy will listen to the criticism of a competitior's product without ascertaining whether it was true. Well the Oz navy appear to have been conned by smart salesmen from DCNS!

The entire contest speaks very lowly of the OZ technical evaluation of the contesting subs and from their track record ability to operate subs,where their Collins class (the most expensive diesel sub type ever),can hardly stay operational despite billions being spent on modifications.Oz lacks enough submariners and serious doubts are being expressed whether they will be able to operate successfully these 12 French boats to come,which are conventional versions of their Barracuda N-sub.

The biggest joke is that the French now want to team up with the defeated Germans on the same deal,otensibly to "consolidate " European sub sales dominance! Why? So that their subs can become as quiet as the U-boats? :mrgreen:

The moral of this story is that India should take a long,hard,serious look at German U-boats instead of building more Scorpenes,which are inferior of French subs to come for Oz. The French promised Oz that they would not part with advanced sub tech for India in order to win the deal. US exposes also say that the US wants Oz subs to monitor and neutralise the Indian sub fleet. The "5-Eyes" nations (US,UK,Oz,Canada and NZ) have their own very private security /intel agreements despite membership of other entities like NATO,etc.


Had to post this.. the French DCNS had hosted a particular Australian ,minister ..ahem very well ..ostensibly to show "the possibilities" .. shortly after a regime change in Australian Govt .. DCNS played the cards well behind the scenes .. one thing for sure It was not based on technical quality that the DCNS subs were chosen .. the Japanese and HDW excelled and DCNS knew well they can never get the contract just based on technological grounds.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_29172 » 17 Jun 2016 23:14

How were the Chinese spy ships not detected? Or were they detected but weren't necessarily violating any law so couldn't be stopped/questioned?

Access to pacific for the Indian Navy would be the next big step, its idiotic to support US/western hegemony in the Asian Pacific area, a better idea would be to eventually have a permanent Naval base there so we can trade with East Asian countries with more ease while keeping an eye on US/Chinese expansionism.

I keep hearing americans whining about how they are spending all their money in defending all these dependent states, I am sure they won't have any issues in giving up some sea space then...

Ideally eventually removing western presence from our immediate neighborhood would've been nice but chinese act like a bunch of morons, so that won't be likely it seems. Prolonged presence of westerners in our waters is hardly something worth cheering about.

The more I go through chinese media, the more I see the same kind of elitism and superiority complex developing among some chinese as westerners have been known for so long. An Asian Alliance would go a long way in preventing islands and lap dog countries from whoring themselves out to outsiders like Japan/S.K. have done or piggistan has done in our immediate neighbourhood.

In the end the song and dance about "shared culture/shared history" only goes so far. Look at Nepal, we did everything we could to be nice to them, gave them free fuel, food, money and still here we are. One of the last Hindu states has become a proud maoist central and soon the hordes of bangladeshis and other muslims will seep in, ruining that country too. Soft power, friendship, cooperation is meaningless if you don't use hard power to protect your interests and your friends when its needed the most.

Otherwise it will always be a one sided deal with mostly us on the losing side.

Access and control of Pacific Ocean is something that would go very far in securing our trade routes in East Asia and will also take care of National security w.r.t. China, and perhaps US/West over the years.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_23370 » 18 Jun 2016 05:13

Who said it was not detected. In the open seas what did you expect IN to do? Sink it?

On the Oz sub..I have a feeling this is another collins in the making. They shd have just stuck with the Soryu's.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 21 Jun 2016 10:25

India to repair and build 2 advanced Kilo Subs in Indian yard
http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/20 ... eet_604531

The Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov first told Kommersant-Vlast of India's interest in improved Kilo-class (Project 636 ‘Varshavyanka’) diesel-electric submarine (DES) construction technology.

"We are now coming to an arrangement for them to initially repair previously acquired submarines, in which they will be assisted by experts from the ‘Zvyozdochka’ Shipbuilding Centre," Chemezov said. "Later, construction of the submarines will start at a joint venture between USC (United Shipbuilding Corporation), Rosoboronexport and an Indian shipyard: first the major assembly work, and then the localisation."

Industry sources said the option of supplying India with two Improved Kilo-class submarines was under discussion until recently. According to a source, the issue was raised in November 2015 during a visit by Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to Admiralty Shipyards in Saint Petersburg. The Indian military, however, decided not to buy the submarines ready-made, but to assemble them in India under licence.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vishvak » 21 Jun 2016 10:33

Logically, if a gun(selective?) doesn't/won't fire across the western border, importance of each of other increases two fold.

In case a gun won't fire due to a super power's interests in many/each countries then importance of each of remaining increases that much.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby wig » 21 Jun 2016 14:56

Naval safety in choppy waters
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commen ... 54592.html
In the last ten-and-a-half years alone, there have been at least 65 mishaps of various kinds involving the Navy’s surface, sub surface and air fleet.
Already plagued by delays in fresh inductions to replace an ageing fleet of ships, submarines and aircraft, the Indian Navy, cited as the world’s seventh largest, continues to be regularly afflicted by accidents on a scale otherwise unprecedented in India’s post-Independence history. In the latest incident, a sailor along with a civilian worker died on June 10 following a toxic gas leak on board India’s 34-year old Soviet-origin aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramditya, inducted in June 2014.
This is the fourth known incident so far this year which, combined, has claimed the lives of four Navy men and one civilian. In March, a sailor was killed battling a fire and steam leak on board the navy’s second aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, a 56-year-old British-origin carrier that is expected to be decommissioned this year. This was followed soon after with the death of two officers, including a lady pilot, when a German-origin Dornier-228 aircraft crashed at sea. Then, in April, a sailor lost his leg while two more were injured in an oxygen cylinder blast aboard INS Nireekshak, a diving support vehicle.

Human & material failure
It has, in fact, been raining accidents, casualties and court martial in the Navy. In the last 10-and-a-half years alone (December 2005 till date), there have been at least 65 mishaps of various kinds involving the Navy’s surface, sub surface and air fleet that have resulted in the death of at least 37 navy personnel including officers; the loss of four vessels, including a submarine; the loss of at least nine aircraft, including two unmanned aerial vehicles; and disciplinary action against at least as many as 148 navy personnel (112 officers and 36 sailors) as of March 2015.This has included dismissals and divesting captains of command. Inquiries have either been just concluded or are continuing in about 10 cases, which are expected to increase the figure of those court martialled. The accidents, attributed mainly to either human error or material failure, have ranged from grounding of ships and damage to their propellers and sonars to on board gas leaks, fires, collisions, explosions, sinking of vessels and air crashes. There have been at least a dozen incidents of collisions at sea and in the harbour area, eight incidents of grounding or of vessels touching the sea bottom and 11 incidents of fire in addition to vessel and aircraft loss during this period.
The worst incident in India’s post-Independence naval history has been the horrific sinking of INS Sindhurakshak, a Russian-origin submarine, following a series of explosions in its torpedo compartment in the wee hours of August 14, 2013 making it the first post-World War-II peace time sinking of a submarine while docked in harbour. Three officers and 15 sailors were killed in the tragedy. Three other vessels that have sunk during this period are INS Prahar, a Corvette, after colliding with a merchant vessel off the coast of Goa (the commanding officer was dismissed from service) on April 22, 2006, INS Vindhyagiri, a frigate, which capsized following a collision with a merchant vessel near Mumbai harbour on January 30, 2011 and a Torpedo Recovery Vessel (TRV-72) which sank near Vishakapatnam in November 2014, killing one sailor while four went missing. Earlier, on August 20, 1990, INS Andaman, a patrol boat, sank due to material failure in the Bay of Bengal. In all, the Navy has lost five vessels during “peace time”— in contrast to only one vessel, INS Khukhri, lost in a war (the 1971Indo-Pak war).
The accidents have not been without its impact at the highest levels of the Navy. Admiral Devendra Kumar Joshi resigned as the Chief of Naval Staff on February 26, 2014, just six months after the sinking of INS Sindhurakshak, following a fire on board another Russian-origin submarine, the INS Sindhuratna, that claimed the lives of two officers. Much later, Admiral Joshi,who became the first Service chief to resign and demit office in post-Independence India’s history, was to comment on the questionable higher defence-management system in the country, an issue on which every Service chief has either privately or publicly commented.
“The root cause”, Admiral Joshi, a distinguished submariner, tellingly remarked, “is this dysfunctional and inefficient business model that we have…While professional competence, accountability and responsibility is with the Service, this is not the case with authority…For example, when it comes to charging submarine batteries, which are available indigenously, or commencing refits and repairs of ships, aircraft, submarines in Indian yards, the Service (Navy) does not have that empowerment…Where there is authority, there is no responsibility. And where there is responsibility, there is no authority.”

Standard operating procedures
For 50 days after Admiral Joshi’s resignation, the Indian Navy functioned on an ad hoc basis with the Navy’s then Vice-Chief, Vice Admiral Rabinder Kumar Dhowan, officiating as the Navy’s Chief before being confirmed to the post. In the process, Vice Admiral Shekhar Sinha, the then senior-most officer, was superseded as most accidents had occurred in the latter’s jurisdiction of command (the Western Naval Command). Interestingly, Admiral Dhowan was appointed to the top post without his ever having earlier commanded even a Fleet let alone an operational command,setting a questionable precedent. Although the Navy has established a series of standard operating procedures and inspection-and-monitoring mechanisms, it is obvious that it has not had the desired effect. The Navy, which is losing men in accidents and in disciplining officers, is already suffering a 14.5 per cent officer shortfall of 1,578 and a 17 per cent sailor shortfall of 11,110. Training is a major area for concern as successive accident inquiries have revealed. But there are some areas which are outside the Navy’s domain. For example, the maritime environment comprising congestion in harbour areas which are part cause for collisions; delays in building naval bases far from congested areas; and material failures and the quality of repairs and overhauling on ageing ships and submarines in dockyards and shipyards. The responsibility has to be collective. Clearly, authority must involve responsibility and vice versa.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby wig » 23 Jun 2016 21:20

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pocket-b ... eststories
Pocket Battleships' Part Of Navy's Mega-Growth Plans
excerpts
On Saturday, the Defence Acquisition Committee of the Ministry of Defence is expected to review and clear proposals worth nearly Rs. 29,000 crore for a host of new generation warships, upgrades and Naval fighting systems.
Among the most significant, is a proposal to construct an all-new class of six next-generation missile boats in India, which, once completed, will be among the most powerful vessels of their class in the world. The 1,250-ton 'pocket battleships' are to be armed with Brahmos anti-shipping missiles which can strike targets at sea and on land 300 kilometres away.

The boats, which will replace the Navy's ageing Prabal class missile-boats, will also be equipped with surface to air missiles, close-in-weapon-systems to intercept hostile missiles, a main gun and point defence guns to counter threats, potentially from terrorists operating in small fast boats. They will be built in India and with the project likely to cost Rs. 13,000 crores.
Heavily armed for their size, the missile boats follow a recent trend of modern Navies building a new generation of small missile armed ships. In October last year, the Russian Navy launched 26 missiles from four small frigates and corvettes in the Caspian Sea to strike ISIS targets more than 1,500 kilometres away.

The Indian Navy, for its part, has long favoured small missile boats. In the 1971 war against Pakistan, an Indian variant of the 245 ton Russian designed Osa class missile boats caused widespread destruction on Pakistani shipping in and around Karachi harbour in the first use of anti-ship missiles in combat in the region. This was only the second time in Naval warfare that anti-ship missiles had been used successfully in combat. So successful was Operation Trident as it was known, that the Navy celebrates Navy Day every year on December 4 to mark the occasion.

Other than missile boats, the Navy is set to significantly upgrade its legacy Delhi class destroyers and the relatively new Talwar class frigates with the made-in-India Brahmos missile, significantly expanding their offensive firepower. The existing weaponry of less-capable Klub anti-ship missiles which currently equip the Delhi and Talwar class may be transferred to older warships though these plans are still being finalised. The deal to upgrade these warships will cost 2700 crores which will include the entire Brahmos missile complex including practice missile rounds.

Significantly, the Navy wants to upgrade its ability to carry out clandestine operations by its Marine Commandos who will now be equipped with two Special Operations Vehicles (SOV), essentially mini-submarines, to be built at Hindustan Shipyards Limited in Visakhapatnam. Each SOV will embark three swimmer delivery vehicles (SDV) to be used by specialist divers in commando operations. This project is worth Rs. 2000 crores.

As part of its overall blue-water plans, the Navy sees fleet support ships as an essential force-multiplier giving it the ability to operate far away from Indian shores. To this end, Hindustan Shipyards Limited and Hyundai Heavy Industries of South Korea have been in talks for the construction of five Fleet Support Ships in India worth Rs. 9000 crores. It is unclear at this stage if the deal will involve a government to government deal between India and South Korea or will be negotiated between the two companies involved.

Finally, the Navy plans to acquire five diving support craft in a Make-in-India proposal for 150 crores to replace its elderly vessels.

Naval ship-building is an area of strength in India and the biggest success-story of this government's Make in India plans in the defence sector. For decades India has been designing and manufacturing the ships it needs from its own aircraft carriers to nuclear submarines.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_23370 » 23 Jun 2016 21:26

Earlier report from Aroor claimed the new gen corvettes were going to be 2500+ tonne. 1250 tonne boat can barely fit 4 brahmos and will require inclined launchers. I always thought using Kamortas hull with turbine engines and replacing the RBU's with Brahmos VLS would be the way to go.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 23 Jun 2016 21:41

Finally some news about new IN acquisitions.

Diving support vessels are much required with neereekshak long in the tooth. Our yards incl private ones have built several for ongc and like.

NGMVs can be small with brahmos vls embedded with superstructure of the ship like the Caspian sea boats

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 23 Jun 2016 21:43

Indonesia mounted yakhonts in hell hangar edges on the Leander frigates. That's also an option though I am not sure if 1250 tons will have a heli hangar

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby sudeepj » 23 Jun 2016 21:45

wig wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pocket-battleships-part-of-navys-mega-growth-plans-1422659?pfrom=home-lateststories
Pocket Battleships' Part Of Navy's Mega-Growth Plans
excerpts
On Saturday, the Defence Acquisition Committee of the Ministry of Defence is expected to review and clear proposals worth nearly Rs. 29,000 crore for a host of new generation warships, upgrades and Naval fighting systems.
Among the most significant, is a proposal to construct an all-new class of six next-generation missile boats in India, which, once completed, will be among the most powerful vessels of their class in the world. The 1,250-ton 'pocket battleships' are to be armed with Brahmos anti-shipping missiles which can strike targets at sea and on land 300 kilometres away.


Missile boats.. not Pocket Battleshipts Effing imbeciles.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby member_23370 » 23 Jun 2016 22:22

1250 ton is not a missile boat by any standards. Its a corvette. The question is are these different from the NGMV?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Gene ... le_Vessels

Maybe these are meant to replace the Veer class?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jun 2016 22:38

Aditya G wrote:Finally some news about new IN acquisitions.

Diving support vessels are much required with neereekshak long in the tooth. Our yards incl private ones have built several for ongc and like.

NGMVs can be small with brahmos vls embedded with superstructure of the ship like the Caspian sea boats


Brahmos M might also be a possibility?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 23 Jun 2016 23:07

Brahmos can be fitted on even tarantul class missile boats, original plans called for 8 in inclined launchers to be retrofits on existing vessels. But those plans were dropped due to cost reasons. Anyway these vessels are likely to like Buyan class with improved endurance and range.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jun 2016 23:12

Or ala Israeli Saar corvettes?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 24 Jun 2016 04:32

Which ones? Saar 6 are based on K130 class. One of the req is 30+ knot speed which would require gas turbines I don't recall such a design from Germans. I know there are couple Buyan based versions that offer that.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby brar_w » 24 Jun 2016 14:05

India aims to acquire 22 Guardian maritime patrol UAVs

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) issued a letter of request (LoR) to the United States on 17 June to procure 22 multimission General Atomics Guardian (a maritime variant of the Predator B ) unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for the Indian Navy (IN) via the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.Official sources said the request for the maritime patrol aircraft, which would monitor the Indian Ocean region and surrounding areas, was despatched to the Offices of Defense Cooperation in the US Embassy in New Delhi. The move follows India's induction into the 35-nation Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) on 6 June.

Indian sources said a letter of acceptance from the US would follow later in the year, after which price negotiations would begin and the UAV contract be signed sometime in 2017-18. It is unclear, however, whether the IN will acquire the non-weaponised Guardian variant - featuring intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities - or the weaponised one, or both.

Industry sources told IHS Jane's that with India having joined the MTCR a fresh round of consultations would take place regarding the Guardian's weaponised variant. It is estimated that the IN, which currently employs Israeli Searcher II and Heron UAVs, is likely to acquire additional platforms beyond the initial 22.

Earlier efforts by the Indian Air Force (IAF) to import General Atomics Predator Avenger UAVs in 2015 were rejected by Washington given that India was not an MTCR member at the time and hence not eligible to acquire the weaponised platforms. Now that the situation has changed the IAF is expected to also restate its UAV requirements via an LoR to the US, MoD officials said.

Besides joining the MTCR, India was also granted 'Major Defense Partner' status by the US during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent trip to Washington, DC. In their 7 June joint statement India was assured access to US technology to a level commensurate with that of Washington's closest allies. This included Predator UAVs, officials said.

Capable of operating at a maximum altitude of 50,000 ft, the turbo-shaft powered UAV is fitted with a Raytheon SeaVue multimode maritime radar under its belly that provides wide-area ISR coverage for over 30 hours. The platform is also capable of small target detection and its automatic identification system helps identify vessels.

India's military has plans to induct over 250 UAVs over the next decade. This is expected to take place largely through imports worth an estimated USD5-7 billion.

India's prospective purchase of Guardian UAVs will further deepen military and strategic ties with the United States, which are primarily aimed at ensuring maritime security and freedom of navigation in the Indian Ocean and surrounding areas such as the South China Sea.

Since 2000 the US has supplied India with USD14 billion worth of defence equipment, and both sides are currently poised to strengthen this partnership through the US-India Defense Technology and Trade Initiative aimed at locally developing and manufacturing varied US materiel.

The US aims to boost India's military capabilities, especially of the IN, to tackle China's growing assertiveness in the region.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 24 Jun 2016 14:22

brar_w wrote:India aims to acquire 22 Guardian maritime patrol UAVs

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) issued a letter of request (LoR) to the United States on 17 June to procure 22 multimission General Atomics Guardian (a maritime variant of the Predator B ) unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) for the Indian Navy (IN) via the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.Official sources said the request for the maritime patrol aircraft, which would monitor the Indian Ocean region and surrounding areas, was despatched to the Offices of Defense Cooperation in the US Embassy in New Delhi. The move follows India's induction into the 35-nation Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) on 6 June.

Indian sources said a letter of acceptance from the US would follow later in the year, after which price negotiations would begin and the UAV contract be signed sometime in 2017-18. It is unclear, however, whether the IN will acquire the non-weaponised Guardian variant - featuring intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities - or the weaponised one, or both.

Industry sources told IHS Jane's that with India having joined the MTCR a fresh round of consultations would take place regarding the Guardian's weaponised variant. It is estimated that the IN, which currently employs Israeli Searcher II and Heron UAVs, is likely to acquire additional platforms beyond the initial 22.

Earlier efforts by the Indian Air Force (IAF) to import General Atomics Predator Avenger UAVs in 2015 were rejected by Washington given that India was not an MTCR member at the time and hence not eligible to acquire the weaponised platforms. Now that the situation has changed the IAF is expected to also restate its UAV requirements via an LoR to the US, MoD officials said.

Besides joining the MTCR, India was also granted 'Major Defense Partner' status by the US during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent trip to Washington, DC. In their 7 June joint statement India was assured access to US technology to a level commensurate with that of Washington's closest allies. This included Predator UAVs, officials said.

Capable of operating at a maximum altitude of 50,000 ft, the turbo-shaft powered UAV is fitted with a Raytheon SeaVue multimode maritime radar under its belly that provides wide-area ISR coverage for over 30 hours. The platform is also capable of small target detection and its automatic identification system helps identify vessels.

India's military has plans to induct over 250 UAVs over the next decade. This is expected to take place largely through imports worth an estimated USD5-7 billion.

India's prospective purchase of Guardian UAVs will further deepen military and strategic ties with the United States, which are primarily aimed at ensuring maritime security and freedom of navigation in the Indian Ocean and surrounding areas such as the South China Sea.

Since 2000 the US has supplied India with USD14 billion worth of defence equipment, and both sides are currently poised to strengthen this partnership through the US-India Defense Technology and Trade Initiative aimed at locally developing and manufacturing varied US materiel.

The US aims to boost India's military capabilities, especially of the IN, to tackle China's growing assertiveness in the region.



is this the same as the MQ9 wingman drones for the Poseidon ??

brar_w
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby brar_w » 24 Jun 2016 14:27

The poseidon will be working with MQ4 Triton BAMS and possibly much smaller aircraft launched drones. General Atomics competed in that competition but eventually lost out to Northrop's offering. The Maritime guardian configuration is actually operated by the US Custom and border protection agency. Its a different capability to the MQ4 BAMS and comes in at a fraction of the cost. You could probably by 4-5 Guardian's for the cost of a single MQ-4, and for the sort certain missions its actually better since the MQ4 is designed for the higher end sensors, payload, altitude and situational awareness. Integrating with the P-8I will be quite easy.

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files ... an_b_6.pdf
Last edited by brar_w on 24 Jun 2016 17:43, edited 2 times in total.


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