Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Raj Malhotra
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Raj Malhotra » 26 Aug 2016 13:04

I think the best solution is to now give up future orders of conventional submarines and go the whole hog for SSNs ie Arihant series-variants.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vonkabra » 26 Aug 2016 13:07

Manish_Sharma wrote:
kit wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Scorpene-documents-leak-What-is-it-about/listshow/53868221.cms

"The documents that have been posted ... have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out," the defence ministry said in a statement. :rotfl: .. seriously ?


:cry:
....beyond retarded !!!


That particular statement from the authorities scares me more than the leak itself.
Last edited by vonkabra on 26 Aug 2016 18:53, edited 1 time in total.

Bihanga
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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Bihanga » 26 Aug 2016 13:36

While importing French submarine, Indian Navy must have factored in exactly this kind of technical leaks in mind and hence MoD, Defence Minister and Indian Navy are in unison in proclaiming this scandal of least concern.

It is fully hardy to imagine to import foreign weapon system and do not run the risk of its confidential material falling into the hand of our enemy countries, if this wasn't the case then we weren't importing anything from abroad.

Indian Navy isn't new to this kinds of leaks given it had went through famous war room leak case in the past involving serving and retired officers.

But most interesting aspect of of entire naval saga is contract signing for the import of Chinese Type - 41 Yuan class submarines worth $ 5.8 billion by Pakistan in 2015 which apparently most advanced submarine to date by Chinese equipped with AIP, plus chinese deployment of same submarines into Indian Ocean with berthing facility in Karachi. So all in all we must expect this Restricted Documents must already made it :twisted: s way into Chinese hand. :roll:

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 26 Aug 2016 13:39

that could be a chinese variant of the Scorpene !

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 26 Aug 2016 13:43

Our contracts are very poorly drafted. There are no professional full time negotiators in either MoD, DRDO, Services, DPSUs. Evaluation Committees are formed on ad-hoc basis. JAG lawyers are more focused on 99% miscellaneous useless litigation at AFT rather than function as attorneys during negotiations.

Not only do companies have good attorneys themselves. even large conglomerates like Tatas used niche legal firms like AZB & Partners for JLR acquisition.

Sadly, negotiators as a function is conspicuously absent in MOD, that is among GOI's & world's largest spenders.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 26 Aug 2016 13:45

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/scorpene-pact-not-clear-on-data-theft-or-espionage/articleshow/53866430.cms

India can invoke a non-disclosure clause that was signed as part of the Scorpene submarine contract in 2005 for action against French manufacturer DCNS but the pact is not clear on penal action in case of data theft or espionage.

While technically, the clause could be invoked and guarantees to the tune of Rs 1800 crore be frozen, such an action would face a strong legal challenge, given that the contract specifies that the company should not disclose any information to a third party.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rahul M » 26 Aug 2016 13:46

the solution would be to hire services of a professional firm, instead of trying to develop it inhouse.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 26 Aug 2016 16:15

^^ That too would require a tender for selection of consultants, and disclosure of details to "outsiders". A negotiator needs to know what he's bargaining for. A better option would be for Law & Logistics Cadre to develop relevant skills.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2016 16:23

This compromises not just the scorpene, but the triomphant, barracuda class and agostas also.
The sonar freqs used by the frogs is expected to be the same.
The other processess, methods, software, firing solution is expected to be the same.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2016 16:29

India should have started building its own conventional subs like a decade ago, sumultaneously with the scorpenes

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby JayS » 26 Aug 2016 17:49

tsarkar wrote:^^ That too would require a tender for selection of consultants, and disclosure of details to "outsiders". A negotiator needs to know what he's bargaining for. A better option would be for Law & Logistics Cadre to develop relevant skills.

I think US has a special college only for acquisition related education. We could also have a college where we can have various technical, financial and legal specializations and groom people for these tasks. People from Armed forces, Labs, administrative services and also from general public can be taken in based on aptitude and interest. But it will take time and we need interim solution for watertight contract negotiations.

As such there is need to educate people in defence related areas for legal aspects related to technology. Looking at the recent HAL tenders and the kind of technical data they give out just like that I think there is a gross ignorance on IPR, general legal and other implications related to such things. If I put such info on outside communication my company would fire me right then and there and perhaps I might even get into legal trouble.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Will » 26 Aug 2016 18:22

Gagan wrote:India should have started building its own conventional subs like a decade ago, sumultaneously with the scorpenes


Admiral Bhagwat wanted an indigenous design but George Fernandes literally forced the scorpene down the IN's throat. I know it was sanctioned during UPA 1. But the story started during NDA 1. Every govt turns out to be the same and who suffers?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby JayS » 26 Aug 2016 19:19

From Twitter, I think hes the reporter from the oz paper.
https://twitter.com/camstewarttheoz/status/769166434937081857
India's defence minister says leaked data on Scorpene Submarines does not include weapons systems. Wrong.We will release weapons docs Monday


One thing I don't understand is why our officials statements are looking so naïve and in hurry to brush the matter under the carpet?? Could have just said that "We are evaluating the situation and can say anything for sure only after that...". Looks like they have no idea which 22400 pages are actually leaked. But then why hurry and give random statements like it "seems like a hack" or "critical data is redacted so no harm done" or "no weapons-system data leaked" and get embarrassed later???

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2016 20:11

Why has India not obtained a court injunction in Gora Paki land preventing that news paper from posting those article?
GOTAus needs to be on ourside with this nonsense.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 26 Aug 2016 20:30

rather why dont GOI get the entire set of data from the Australian directly assess it and then issue a statement along with DCNS ..till then a " we are looking into it ?!" .. i suppose there are defence attaches posted in all embassies ??!!

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2016 20:34

One can sense an element of Schadenfreude on the part of the Aussie government, where their newspaper is posting, (agreed redacted) documents.
This should not be allowed given national security considerations of a friendly country India.

GOTAus it seems has not done enough here.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2016 20:47

^^ The Aus Gov is likely the real target here for having purchased the subs from DCNS. We are collateral damage. What a disaster.
The Scorpenes are now compromised in some respects, & we can kiss goodbye to any plan to build a few follow on units. The Germans must be popping champagne. They are now the only game in town for a credible Scorpene follow on.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby SaiK » 26 Aug 2016 21:03

++

U36 212a class fuel cells

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2016 21:13

And there is this. The Pakistanis likely have a very good idea of what the U-214 is capable of.

The Pakistan Navy negotiated for the purchase of three Type 214 submarines to be built in Pakistan in 2008. During the IDEAS 2008 exhibition, the HDW chief Walter Freitag told “The commercial contract has been finalised up to 95 per cent,” he said. The first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan Navy in 64 months after signing of the contract while the rest would be completed successively in 12 months.[5][6] After wavering for over two years Pakistan dropped the deal in favor of a new negotiation with China Shipbuilding & Offshore International Co. Ltd. for a set of submarines that have yet to be designed.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2016 21:14

I'd say drop the whole darn idea and get cracking with an indian program based on Arihant work and derivatives. Both SSNs and regular subs.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Vivek K » 26 Aug 2016 21:26

^^+1!!

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Bheeshma » 26 Aug 2016 22:23

Pakis opted out of the Type-214 because germans wouldn't allow integration of cruise missiles, not to mention the cost. the chinese crap yuan with some land attach missile capability is their under sea leg of triad.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karthik S » 26 Aug 2016 22:25

Make our own SSBs and sell them to Vietnam.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby krishna_krishna » 26 Aug 2016 22:26

Gaganullah, I wont discount the fact that they may have given tacit approval and or some sort of hand in this. Read my post on this being a massa operation. Here is what Mr. Parikkar has to say :

The minister also said the Scorpene submarine has not fully completed a sea trial, which is important to understand how it will work underwater.

The navy has taken up the Scorpene document leak matter with French Directorate General of Armament. “We are waiting for the report. Basically, what is on the website is not of big concern. We are assuming, on our own, that this has leaked and we are taking all precautions,” he said.

“What I am given to understand that there are few pockets of concern assuming that what is claimed to have been leaked has leaked actually.


“We are going by assumption of the worst-case scenario. I think there is not big worry because we will be able out put things in right perspective,” Parrikar added.

=================================================================================================

Asked by a journalist whether the Rafale deal would be affected because of the leak, the minister shot back questioning whether one can stop using French products just because a leak has happened in another company.

“You stop using all products from France? Obviously, the companies are different, the type of equipment is different and an incident should be punished with whatever the contractual punishment is there. It is not intentionally leaked,” Parrikar said.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karan M » 26 Aug 2016 22:45

The Nation
It’s in the mail: how submarine secrets surfaced in Australia


In late April 2013 a Sydney postman reached into his satchel and pulled out a small envelope containing the secrets of India’s new submarine fleet.

He dropped the letter, with a Singapore stamp on it, in a private post office box and moved on.

The envelope, containing a small data disc, remained there for days, along with a Telstra bill and junk mail, before being picked up on April 24, 2013, by a man who took it home and pushed the disk into his computer.

This week the contents of that disk have become front-page news in Australia, India and France as each country grapples with the ramifications of an Edward Snowden-style leak of confidential documents disclosing the entire secret combat capability of India’s new Scorpene-class submarine fleet.

The leak is of more than passing interest to Australia because the documents come from the same French shipbuilder, DCNS, that will design 12 submarines for the Royal Australian Navy in the country’s largest and most expensive defence project.
India woke on Wednesday to the report that its submarine fleet had been potentially compromised by the leak of thousands of secret documents. Within hours it was the biggest story in the country. Under pressure to provide a quick answer, Parrikar said the leak appeared to be a case of hacking but he offered nothing to support this theory, which he later backed away from.

In Paris, DCNS realised it had a public relations and security disaster on its hands, with the story being reported on the front page of the newspaper Le Monde, followed the next day by a front-page cartoon lampooning the French security services.

DCNS backed away from the claim that India had caused the leak and the French government stepped in to announce that its defence security officials would investigate.

The Indian government also announced an investigation, but with every major Indian newspaper reporting the story on its front page, the government urged patience until its navy could assess the leak and the damage caused.

But it seems that the story ­behind this leak may be more incompetence than espionage — more Austin Powers than James Bond. The Weekend Australian has been told by sources that the data was removed from DCNS in Paris in 2011 by a former French Navy officer who quit the service in the early 1970s and worked for French defence companies for more than 30 years before becoming a subcontractor to DCNS.

Sources say they believe this subcontractor somehow copied the sensitive data from DCNS in France and, along with a French colleague, took it to a Southeast Asian country. If so, he broke the law and may face prosecution.

The two men worked in that Southeast Asian country carrying out unclassified naval defence work.

The speculation is that the data on the Scorpene was removed to serve as a reference guide for the former naval officer’s new job, but it is unclear why anyone would risk breaking the law by taking classified data for such a purpose.

The two men are then said to have the fallen out with their ­employer, a private company run by a Western businessman. They were sacked and refused re-entry to their building. At least one of the men asked to retrieve the data on the Scorpene but they were refused and the company — possibly not knowing the significance of the data — held on to it.

The secret data was then sent to the company’s head office in Singapore, where the company’s IT chief — again probably not knowing its significance — tried to load it on an internet server for the person in Sydney who was slated to replace the two sacked French workers.

The data was placed on a server on April 18, 2013, and it was then that it was dangerously vulnerable to hacking or interception by a foreign intelligence service. It is not known whether the data stayed on this server for a few days or for a year. It is not known if any foreign intelligence service ­obtained it during this time.

Unable to send such a large file over the net and not knowing the significance of the data, the Singapore company sent it on a data disk by regular post to Sydney.

When the recipient, who was experienced in defence issues, opened the file on his home computer he was stunned. He was ­expecting to read notes on a low-level naval program, but before him lay the secret capabilities of the new Indian submarine fleet.

The data was not encrypted so he transferred it to an encrypted disk. That evening the man wiped the old disk with special software, grabbed a hammer and smashed it to pieces in his backyard.

He placed the new encrypted disk in a locked filing cabinet in his office and there it remained for more than two years.



In the back room of Cafe Loco, in the Melbourne suburb of ­Elsternwick, the man arrives, sits down and pulls out a data disk from his pocket. He orders a hamburger then slips the disk into his laptop. He says he has something to show me, but not give to me.

Why are you doing this I ask?

He replies: “In the wake of the recent future submarine decision (in Australia) this matter went from one of a very serious breach for both France and India to a matter of national security significance to Australia and the US.”

In other words, he wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France, has already lost control of secret data on India’s new submarines. His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia’s $50 billion submarine project does not suffer the same fate.

He says he is a whistleblower and maintains that revealing to the world, via The Australian, that this classified data exists in a dangerously uncontrolled form is worthwhile because it will serve Australia’s interests even if it causes an international furore.

He presses a button on his computer and his screen flickers to life.

Here in a Melbourne cafe, amid the clatter of plates, laughter and the smell of coffee, he scrolls through the secrets of India’s submarine fleet. He has not broken any laws and the authorities know who he is. He plans to surrender the disk to the government on Monday.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/na ... f27819acfb

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby darshhan » 26 Aug 2016 23:01

Karan M wrote:I'd say drop the whole darn idea and get cracking with an indian program based on Arihant work and derivatives. Both SSNs and regular subs.

Exactly. Also as UUVs continue to develop they will be able to perform lot of conventional submarine tasks including carriage of weapons.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby maxratul » 26 Aug 2016 23:07

will be interesting to see what the future holds for the scorpene fleet after this catastrophe

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Paul » 26 Aug 2016 23:24

These revelations carry the potential to become another Bofors disaster.

My bet is Govt will take this in stride and keep moving forward. The real target appears to be France, could be anyone Russia, US, or PRC.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby nachiket » 26 Aug 2016 23:31

Paul wrote:These revelations carry the potential to become another Bofors disaster.

My bet is Govt will take this in stride and keep moving forward. The real target appears to be France, could be anyone Russia, US, or PRC.

Doesn't matter who the target was. We are the only ones who actually use the Scorpene subs. So the damage to us is more than to anyone else. I had always hoped the P-75I would be scrapped in favor of 6 more Scorpenes (albeit with AIP) to save time and money. Can't do that now.

What do we do now? Pakis already have info about the U-214. Spanish S-80 cannot float. Maybe Singha will get his wish and we can somehow convince the Japanese to sell us the Soryu. In any case this sets back our submarine plans by a decade if not more. The Chinese will be the ones laughing hardest.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Bihanga » 26 Aug 2016 23:46

We can't simply discard advanced French submarines in favour of bulky Arihant class Nuclear submarines, bcoz till date we never showcased even with German ToT any reasonable level of proficiency in design and development of Conventional class submarines, specifically we lack in achieving comparable level of skill set in putting together Powerplant and Active & Passive sonars into smallest possible size and weight.

This is among the reason why we designed Nuclear Arihant SSBN which never had to conform to the size and weight specifications as strictly as its conventional counterparts. One more point to remember is IN has been operating Kilo which itself is 3 Ton class as oppose to Kalavari which is 2.5 ton class sub, however Kalavari in maintaining virtual silence and prowling the enemy packs a huge punch especially against old Agostas and Chinese Kilos aka Type-41 Yuan.

Equally so far so good, regardless of leaks which happened first in 2011, when First Kalavari was under construction, there is no need to be panic given leaked info might have derived from Certain sub simulators or direct translation of acoustic and related info of operational Malaysian and Chilean scorpion submarines. It is highly unlikely that it is of Kalavari which is currently under trial stage which makes even Indian Navy oblivious of any of its Acoustic Signature and Combat capability till the completion of Trial stage and few more years of actual deployment.

IN certainly need to revisit Kalavari's and follow on subs planned deployment in and around Karachi and Gwadar port as well as A&N and Nicobar island as part of peace time snooping.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 27 Aug 2016 01:53

One could possibly ascertain the damage of the leak, by the amount/type of compensation we get from DCNS. We get a paltry amount, we could assume that the leak is not that grave. We get a few boats as a 100% discount, we can could assume that the enemy has everything they need to know. Again, what is reported in the press will not necessarily be true. If not anything, the optics are bad for DCNS and the Indian Navy has its own set of challenges to overcome with this new problem facing her submarine arm.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby John » 27 Aug 2016 01:54

Hindsight is always 50-50 but we could have continued to build Desi-U-209 (didn't even need Germany's blessing as we had blue print) rather than going for something *shiny*. I suppose i have been saying that since i joined here :D .

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 27 Aug 2016 02:21

Pakistan and China express interest to access leaked documents of Indian submarine Scorpene
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/pakistan-china-express-interest-access-leaked-documents-indian-submarine-scorpene-1578134

The Navy said in the statement that "the documents that have been posted on the website by an Australian news agency have been examined and do not pose any security compromise as the vital parameters have been blacked out." However, The Australian reporter Cameron Stewart said the Indian Navy's claim was "completely laughable".

He added, "We blacked those documents out ourselves because we knew we couldn't put classified info on the web. The documents themselves - all 22,400 of them - are completely unredacted and have all the sensitive data in them. We explained that in our original story. They are either incredibly stupid or are deliberately misleading the Indian people in order to play down the damage to India's national security."

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby krishna_krishna » 27 Aug 2016 06:21

Gurus the twitter page of this Cameron Stuart Australian generalist is sickening looks another prestitute paid lifafa journo. No wonder rndi tv journos like Vishnu S are sucking up big time on twitter , suits them their kind.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby shiv » 27 Aug 2016 07:05

Education problem. We are taught to expect honest reporting in the media, but the media cannot survive without producing stuff that will shock, scare or titillate, so they are liberal liars. We need to change ourselves to look at any news medium expecting that anything that is said is probably only a half-truth at best and most probably a lie or some form of promotion or propaganda.

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby wig » 27 Aug 2016 10:27

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 880159.cms
now the Whistleblower is to hand over Scorpene data disk to Australian govt on Monday
The 'whistleblower' behind the Scorpene document leak will hand over the disk containing thousands of pages of data detailing the Indian submarine's stealth and warfare capabilities, to the Australian government on Monday, The Australian newspaper today said.
It said that the identity of the unnamed whistleblower is already known to the Australian authorities.
The weekend edition of the newspaper said that neither France nor India knew about the leak till Monday afternoon when it sought a comment from French firm DCNS
The paper said whistleblower wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France has already lost control over secret data on India's new submarines
His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia's 50 billion dollar submarine project does not suffer the same fate, it said.
"He has not broken any law and the authorities know who he is. He plans to surrender the disk to the government on Monday," the newspaper said

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby darshhan » 27 Aug 2016 12:31

wig wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Whistleblower-to-handover-Scorpene-data-disk-to-Australian-govt-on-Monday/articleshow/53880159.cms
now the Whistleblower is to hand over Scorpene data disk to Australian govt on Monday
The 'whistleblower' behind the Scorpene document leak will hand over the disk containing thousands of pages of data detailing the Indian submarine's stealth and warfare capabilities, to the Australian government on Monday, The Australian newspaper today said.
It said that the identity of the unnamed whistleblower is already known to the Australian authorities.
The weekend edition of the newspaper said that neither France nor India knew about the leak till Monday afternoon when it sought a comment from French firm DCNS
The paper said whistleblower wants Australia to know that its future submarine partner, France has already lost control over secret data on India's new submarines
His hope is that this will spur the Turnbull government and DCNS to step up security to ensure Australia's 50 billion dollar submarine project does not suffer the same fate, it said.
"He has not broken any law and the authorities know who he is. He plans to surrender the disk to the government on Monday," the newspaper said


As if he has not made any copies. Talk about drama. Nanga karne ke baad natak

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby manjgu » 27 Aug 2016 12:52

will these documents allow chinkis to asses the state of their technical expertise wrt submarine building? submarine technology?

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 27 Aug 2016 14:03

DM should do more than just saying weapons systems details are not there ..and which is not simply true ! .. hope he doesn't make a fool of himself :-? these days every word said by the polity is analysed to death ( NaMo s Baluchistan word literally changed geopolitical scene ! )

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Re: Indian Naval News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 27 Aug 2016 14:09

the details would certainly give any country bench marks to better against as well as countermeasures ..thats a given .. only matter is how much the data pertains to indian scorpenes and how the IN deals with it .. broad parameters may not change but sensors and weapon systems might be tweakable !! .. China would definitely benefit no doubt as they now access the latest in western design parameters ..if they don't have it already


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