Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jan 2016 19:26

vikky and mysore are also bound for vizag surely.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 22 Jan 2016 10:58

Vik in Colombo vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDIzbe1sGe0

"First visit of an aircraft carrier to SL after 42 years."

Tons of pics:

http://www.dailymirror.lk/103727/indian ... lombo-port
http://www.navy.lk/eventnews/2016/01/21/201601211200/
http://www.navy.lk/eventnews/2016/01/21/201601211845/

A number of high level people visited the boat.
Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Mangala Samaraweera, the State Minister of Defence, Hon. Ruwan Wijewardene, Indian High Commissioner to Sri Lanka His Excellency RK Sinha, the Secretary to the Ministry of Defence, the Chief of Defence Staff, the Commander of the Sri Lanka Army and the Commander of the Sri Lanka Navy.

(thanks to QuantamFX @ Keypub)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Jan 2016 13:23

Navy boat sinks off Chennai coast - Dennis S Jesudasan, The Hindu

A Navy boat sank off the Chennai coast during the early hours on Thursday after a fire broke out in the engine.

However, all six personnel on board the 15.6 metre-long boat were rescued by the crew of another boat and a ship sailing alongside.

The incident happened at 2 a.m. on Thursday when the Fast Interceptor Craft (T 304) boat was on a routine deployment about 90 nautical miles north east off the Chennai coast.

The personnel on board were rescued by another boat (T 303) and a Fast Attack Craft INS Cheriyam (T 72), sources said.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2016 13:41

^ this is a SPB FIC built by Solas Marine. Poor survivability against fire is the main issue with FRP in Naval applications.

Vikramaditya: Any visuals on the upgrades post refit? esp Barak-1

There are definitely a lot more sat comm domes:

Earlier:

Now:

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jan 2016 17:17

AIP Technology for Submarines ( MOD Press )

DRDO has undertaken a project on development of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for Submarine, based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The details of Project are given below:-

• Date of Sanction : 16th August 2010.
•Probable Date of Completion (PDC) : 31st March 2016.
•Cost of Project : Rs. 216/- Crores.
•Present Status:- (i)
Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM) of AIP has been established. Laboratory testing has been completed to prove the concept. Indian Navy has also witnessed the trials.

(ii) Land Based Prototype of AIP has been realized.

The AIP is based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The Fuel Cell, stacks along with Hydrogen generation, has been tested continuously and expected power has been achieved in Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM).

This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Dr. Kambhampati Haribabu in Lok Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Jan 2016 17:48

Aditya G wrote:Any visuals on the upgrades post refit? esp Barak-1

Rukmini Comm antenna has been moved from its mast to superstructure. The mast now carries Elta 2221 ex Godavari. The positioning on the mast gives it a good radar horizon & look down ability

In the rear superstructure, just under the radomes, you can find the VLS. I had taken a photo some weeks back but the winter early morning smog & haze in Bombay ruined all photos. There are two AK-630 at the stern.

This photo shows the Barak-1 VLS clearly atop rear superstructure http://www.navy.lk/assets/images/news/e ... 21_a/6.jpg

This photo shows the Elta 2221 and Barak 1 VLS atop rear superstructure http://www.navy.lk/assets/images/news/e ... 21_a/5.jpg

This one shows all of them http://www.dailymirror.lk/media/images/ ... -600-1.jpg

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Jan 2016 17:56

Austin wrote:AIP Technology for Submarines ( MOD Press )

DRDO has undertaken a project on development of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) for Submarine, based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The details of Project are given below:-

• Date of Sanction : 16th August 2010.
•Probable Date of Completion (PDC) : 31st March 2016.
•Cost of Project : Rs. 216/- Crores.
•Present Status:- (i)
Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM) of AIP has been established. Laboratory testing has been completed to prove the concept. Indian Navy has also witnessed the trials.

(ii) Land Based Prototype of AIP has been realized.

The AIP is based on Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell (PAFC) Technology. The Fuel Cell, stacks along with Hydrogen generation, has been tested continuously and expected power has been achieved in Pre-Production Floor Module (PPFM).

This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Dr. Kambhampati Haribabu in Lok Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ

I though the land-based prototype was still under fabrication by L&T. Is there a difference between this Land Based prototype and the prototype with exact submarine hull shaped module that they were claiming to build (just like the Arihant nuclear propulsion module)?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2016 18:22

SAIL has got a confirmed order for 24,000t of warship steel for the 7 P17A DDGs.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 348_1.html

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Jan 2016 20:54

tsarkar - spot on with eye balls mark-2 as usual.

Any idea on the squarish panel on the mast?

I like this:

The long range air surveillance radar and modern electronic warfare equipment give the ship the capability of maintaining a 500 KM surveillance bubble.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 23 Jan 2016 08:41

Nick_S wrote: A number of high level people visited the boat.
Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Mangala Samaraweera, the State Minister of Defence, Hon. Ruwan Wijewardene, Indian High Commissioner to Sri Lanka His Excellency RK Sinha, the Secretary to the Ministry of Defence, the Chief of Defence Staff, the Commander of the Sri Lanka Army and the Commander of the Sri Lanka Navy.

+
Captain DK Sharma ‏@CaptDKS 20m20 minutes ago
HH Maithripala Srisena President of Sri Lanka visits INS Vikramaditya in Colombo. He's onboard d iconic Carrier now.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 23 Jan 2016 10:57

Nick_S wrote:
Nick_S wrote: A number of high level people visited the boat.
Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. Mangala Samaraweera, the State Minister of Defence, Hon. Ruwan Wijewardene, Indian High Commissioner to Sri Lanka His Excellency RK Sinha, the Secretary to the Ministry of Defence, the Chief of Defence Staff, the Commander of the Sri Lanka Army and the Commander of the Sri Lanka Navy.
+
Captain DK Sharma ‏@CaptDKS 20m20 minutes ago
HH Maithripala Srisena President of Sri Lanka visits INS Vikramaditya in Colombo. He's onboard d iconic Carrier now.

Quite a coup for the planners. Such a charm offensive is needed as our neighbours have designs with both SL and Maldives.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2016 14:31

give a good idea of the deck size and height of ski jump..vikky is not short, just narrower than a purpose built carrier.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 23 Jan 2016 22:46

Aditya G wrote:Any idea on the squarish panel on the mast?

No, never gave it a thought, but it is not a radar. Let me examine it closely during IFR.

Aditya G wrote:I like this:The long range air surveillance radar and modern electronic warfare equipment give the ship the capability of maintaining a 500 KM surveillance bubble.

That is Podberezovik http://warfare.be/db/catid/327/linkid/2 ... ne-radars/

John · Post by **John** » 23 Jan 2016 23:49

Aditya G wrote:tsarkar - spot on with eye balls mark-2 as usual.

Any idea on the squarish panel on the mast?

I like this:

The long range air surveillance radar and modern electronic warfare equipment give the ship the capability of maintaining a 500 KM surveillance bubble.

Regarding the 500 km range detection. There are two planar array radars one is Fregat radar on top of Resistor-E and the 500 km ranged radar is the Podberezovik unf it is limited to only 180 degrees due to its placement.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2016 23:26

Can one compare "before and after" Barak-1 pics of the VikA ? It would give one a clear pic of the modifications.

An int. report X-posted from the Ru mil tech td. with a ripple effect on the IN's P-75I sub acquisition contest. Will the new sub type be offered to India for the req.?

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160119/ ... ction.html

Russia Scraps Plans of Additional Project 677 Submarines Construction
12:53 19.01.2016
The Russian Navy decided not to build Lada-class diesel-electric submarines (Project 677) since the funding will be spent on Kalina-class ships, a senior Russian Navy’s official said Tuesday.

Hunt You Down: Russian Navy to Receive Modern Anti-Submarine Aircraft
MOSCOW (Sputnik) – Construction of the Sankt Peterburg, the lead ship of the Project 677, began in December 1997. It was introduced into the Navy for trial operations in April 2010. Two other ships of the class have already been laid down.

"The Navy has decided to complete the construction of two Lada-class boats and stop the work on the project. All three boats of this project will join the Baltic Fleet. Funding will be directed to the Kalina project," the official told RIA Novosti.

He added that a Russian design bureau, Rubin, was working on the project of the submarines equipped with anaerobic (air-independent) power units, dubbed Kalina-class. Their construction is expected to be launched after 2020.

Air-independent, closed cycle submarines, which usually use hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells, are quieter than conventional diesel-electric boats and do not have to surface or use snorkel tubes to breathe air, thereby exposing themselves to detection by radar and other sensors.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Jan 2016 06:51

World View: India Deploying ‘Submarine Killer’ Planes to Counter China’s Submarines

As China continues to deploy new missile systems that can target any part of the United States with nuclear weapons, and submarines that can target any part of the trade routes from China, through the South China Sea, and into the Indian Ocean, India is preparing to defend its Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal.

India has detected Chinese naval ships coming close to the territorial waters of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. The Chinese ships attempt to get close at least twice every three months. India is concerned that the islands are mostly undefended, and a lightning attack by the Chinese would be successful.

In response, India is deploying eight P-8I aircraft, obtained from Boeing under a 2009 deal with the United States. The aircraft will be stationed at the southern tip of mainland India in Tamil Nadu. They will serve as reconnaissance aircraft, and also will be equipped with missiles capable of neutralizing enemy submarines and warships.

According to Indian media:

It’s not uncommon for Chinese naval vessels to get close to the 10 degree channel, which is a 150km-wide channel that separates the Andaman and Nicobar chain of islands. Officers feel that the Chinese may choose the Andamans for a sudden strike instead of the mainland. After all, the Chinese know that India has an upper hand for the first 7-8 days due to her advanced air assets if an attack is launched on the mainland.

Things would change after that due to attrition and other factors but no armed conflict between two nuclear powers like India and China is expected to last more than a week before the international community intervenes.

“The only place where the Chinese can strike without facing any real opposition, merely to bother India, is the Andamans. After all, our assets on the mainland can’t remain at a top level of preparedness for an indefinite period every time a Chinese warship is detected close to the islands. Capabilities of the assets from the mainland will also be hampered by bad weather and other factors. The Chinese will also factor these in if they choose to strike. The Chinese presence on Coco Islands continues to remain a matter of concern. The length of runway there has been increased to 8,000 feet. When it becomes 10,000 feet, all kinds of aircraft can land there and we will have a full-fledged Chinese base some 30-odd miles from the Andamans,” the officer added.

The Coco islands are north of the Andaman islands. They belong to Burma (Myanmar), but are believed to be under control of the Chinese. Lowy Institute (Australia) and The Diplomat and Times of India and The Diplomat (19-Dec-2015) and Washington Free Beacon (11-Dec-2015)

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 28 Jan 2016 07:11

India Boosts Strait of Malacca Maritime Surveillance

India's recent announcement that it will deploy two of its new Boeing P-8 maritime surveillance and strike aircraft to the Andaman & Nicobar Islands could create new opportunities for enhanced cooperation with Australia and the US.

The islands, which run some 800km from the top of Indonesian Sumatra to Myanmar, are India's strategic outpost in Southeast Asia, potentially allowing India to dominate the western approaches to the Malacca Strait just as China's artificial islands in the South China Sea dominate the sea lanes at the other end of the Strait.

India has been building its military capabilities on the islands for decades, but its capabilities in intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) have been limited. But the Indian Navy's air station on Great Nicobar island in the south of the archipelago is now being developed to accommodate large aircraft such as the P-8. Great Nicobar is near the western end of the Malacca Strait and the Six Degree Channel through which most commercial shipping passes.

The most immediate driver of these deployments is China's growing presence in the Indian Ocean. The PLA Navy has made continuous deployments to anti-piracy operations in the Arabian Sea since 2008. But deployments of Chinese conventional submarines to the Indian Ocean in the last couple of years have caused considerable disquiet in Delhi. Port calls by a Chinese submarine in Sri Lanka in 2014 were especially controversial, and were essentially seen as a hostile act against India by Sri Lanka's former Rajapaksa regime. Last December, Beijing announced the establishment of its first foreign military base in Djibouti to support Chinese forces operating in the western Indian Ocean.

This means the Chinese navy has now become a permanent feature of the Indian Ocean, and one day this could include deployments of Chinese ballistic-missile submarines.

The growing Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean has led the Indian Navy to rebalance its fleet more towards its east coast and the Bay of Bengal. The development of new capabilities in the Andaman and Nicobar islands will help India to potentially dominate the entire Bay of Bengal and the western approaches to the Malacca Strait. The P-8 deployment will also enhance India's surveillance and strike capabilities further afield, potentially including in the South China Sea.

But the deployment of P-8 aircraft to the Nicobars could also have broader strategic consequences for India's defence relations with Australia, the US and Southeast Asian partners.

For one thing, India's maritime surveillance efforts could complement Australia's activities in the area. For more than 35 years, as part of Operation Gateway, Australia has conducted maritime surveillance in the Malacca Strait itself and at each end of the Strait in the South China Sea and Bay of Bengal. Operation Gateway was instituted by the Fraser Government in 1981 in response to the growing Soviet presence in the Indian Ocean and throughout the 1980s, Australian P-3 aircraft, operating from or staging through Butterworth in Malaysia, actively “prosecuted” Soviet submarines transiting the Malacca Strait between the Pacific and Indian Oceans. These ISR operations continued after the Cold War and from 2017 will include Australia's new fleet of P-8 aircraft.

The operation of P-8s by India, Australia and the US could form a good basis for cooperation in shared maritime domain awareness in the region. The deployment of Indian P-8s to the Nicobar Islands and the development of associated runways and support facilities could also create new opportunities for operational cooperation.

Since the 1990s, when the US encouraged India to develop its military presence in the Andamans, US analysts have pointed to the potential value of these facilities for US forces. A Logistics Support Agreement which would facilitate the use by US and Indian forces of each other's facilities and the pre-positioning of equipment has been on the table for almost a decade. Following the visit of Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to Washington in December, it looks like a deal might be finalised soon. If so, a similar agreement with Australia will also likely be on the cards. Access to facilities in the Andaman & Nicobars by US and Australian aircraft would represent a big step forward in operational cooperation.

Improving India's ISR capabilities in the islands also creates opportunities to work more closely with Southeast Asian partners, which could potentially include the development of a regional maritime domain awareness system encompassing Southeast Asia. This could help address a host of maritime security concerns as diverse as illegal fishing, drug and people smuggling, and terrorism.

Despite a lot of rhetoric about greater defence and security cooperation between India, the US and Australia, practical cooperation remains thin. The three countries need to create opportunities for regular and sustained cooperation at an operational level. ISR cooperation in and around Southeast Asia, potentially including use of facilities in the Andaman & Nicobar islands, would fit the bill.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 28 Jan 2016 09:01

Bharat Karnad has a thought prevoking article of having the INS Arihant for the IFR

http://bharatkarnad.com/2016/01/24/has- ... aving-mad/

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 28 Jan 2016 15:43

Or it could be that the Arihant will never enter active service and serve only as a development platform albeit one that can be operationalised if need be. Its successors (even of the same class), however, will/might have very different characteristics. So the presence of the Arihant will put the world on notice in a spectacularly public manner, showcase the IN's efforts at indigenisation (which ties in very well with Make In India while the Arjun & Tejas languish) & allow the IN to make a play for a bigger budget. In that context, it seems to be a smart move.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jan 2016 17:22

Can the IN display a warship or sub that hasn't been commissioned? I think not. What about the Chakra too? Anyway,I'm sure that the In will have some tricks up their sleeves but the SSBN? Prudence would say NO.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Jan 2016 17:31

Food for serious thought,why beefing up the sub fleet hugely is more important than a large N-powered EMALS CV.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... 034?page=2

This Could 'Sink' the U.S. Navy: Lethal Stealth Submarines

Harry J. Kazianis
January 27, 2016

There is no force patrolling the world’s oceans more powerful than the mighty U.S. Navy. Washington’s nuclear-powered attack and ballistic submarines, aircraft carriers and surface combatants, all guided by the best trained sailors and professionals in the world, are no match when stacked up on paper one-on-one against the likes of Russia, China, Iran or any other challenger. And as history shows, going to war against Washington in a fair-fight is suicide. However, thanks to advances in modern, ultra-quiet conventional diesel-electric submarines, Washington will need to adjust its tactics if it were to tangle with any nation sporting these increasingly sophisticated weapons of war.

To be fair, the threat of super-stealthy diesel submarines being deployed around the world has been present for decades. Still, newer boats are coming armed with advanced anti-ship weapons and are being combined with new air-independent propulsion systems (AIP) making them near impossible to find in the ocean's depths—a one-two punch that can’t be ignored.

Recent history shows only too clearly the challenge the United States and other modern navies are facing from these heavily armed, ‘stealth’ submarines. Back as far as 2005, the U.S. Navy recognized the challenge and reached out to friends and allies for help. It was that year that the HMS Gotland, a modern AIP submarine serving in the Swedish Navy, made its home in California for a year. The goal was to test the impact of such a boat against U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups and other important vessels. It seems the boats, much cheaper to produce than the standard American nuclear-attack subs, created quite the stir:

“Apparently the Navy got more than they were bargaining for when it came to finding and engaging the stealthy little sub. The Gotland virtually ‘sunk’ many U.S. nuclear fast attack subs, destroyers, frigates, cruisers and even made it into the 'red zone' beyond the last ring of anti-submarine defenses within a carrier strike group. Although it was rumored she got many simulated shots off on various U.S. super-carriers, one large-scale training exercise in particular with the then brand new USS Ronald Reagan ended with the little sub making multiple attack runs on the super-carrier, before slithering away without ever being detected. . . ”

“. . .the little Swedish sub was "so silent it literally did not exist to our sensors."

Thankfully the above were controlled exercises, crafted for America’s ‘silent service’ and surface combatant operators to understand the threat they were dealing with. However, not all encounters with ultra-quiet diesel boats have been as friendly—or just a mere exercise. Back in 2006, a Chinese Song-class attack submarine, created at least partially by Russian and Western technology and likely not nearly as advanced as the Gutland (the Song-class does not have AIP technology, for example) tailed the Japan-based U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk in the East China Sea near Okinawa without being identified. While such a shadowing operation is quite normal, the sub “surfaced within five miles of the carrier, in deep waters off Okinawa, and only then was it spotted, by one of the carrier's planes on a routine surveillance flight.” Such submarines are armed with advanced anti-ship missile and wake-homing torpedoes.

Moving to the present, Russia seems to be doubling down on its development of these important vessels. Moscow is developing an even deadlier class of boats:

“The stealth capabilities of Russia’s new Lada-class diesel-electric submarines far exceed those of their predecessors, Admiraty Shipyard’s CEO Alexander Buzakov told the Russian press.

“According to Buzakov, the new vessels are even stealthier than Russian Kilo-class submarines, thought to be one of the quietest diesel-electric submarine classes in the world and dubbed "black holes" for their ability to "disappear” from sonars.

“The new submarines are able to maintain such a low profile thanks to a clever implementation of a next-generation anti-reflective acoustic coating and a new improved hydro-acoustic system, Buzakov said.

He also added that during the new submarines’ construction and design process, the development team managed to gather a lot of valuable data which, among other things, allowed them to significantly improve the Kilo-class submarines as well.

“The Lada-class submarines are designed to defend coastlines against ships and other submarines, gather intelligence, provide surveillance and reconnaissance missions, and act as a mother ship for special forces. With its new air-independent propulsion plant, a Lada submarine can remain submerged for as many as 25 days. With its vast array of weapon systems, the Lada is also world’s first non-nuclear submarine to be equipped with specialized launchers for cruise missiles.”

So, with all this being said, what should the U.S. Navy do about this challenge? A greater investment in anti-submarine warfare would be a great place to start. New detection methods could also help, although such methods could also be used against Washington’s subs. Here’s an idea: maybe America should get in on the act and get some of its own? Hmmm. . .

Harry Kazianis (@grecianformula) is the former Executive Editor of The National Interest. Mr. Kazianis presently serves as Senior Fellow (non-resident) for Defense Policy at the Center for the National Interest as well as a Fellow for National Security Affairs at The Potomac Foundation. All opinions are his own.

PS:Russia is stopping Lada/Amur production at 3 boats and is putting its money into developing/building a new more advanced AIP series called the Kalina class,first boat expected before 2020. To increase sub numbers,it is building at rapid speed several advanced Kilo 636.3s both for itself and for export.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 161343.ece

Silent killers’ set to hog limelight
Sindhughosh-class submarines stationed at the base in Eastern Naval Command in Visakhapatnam. —Photo: C.V. Subrahmanyam
Seeing submarines in action will be a different experience

he black cylindrical objects that would emerge out of the blue waters and float silently close to the shores during the International Fleet Review (IFR), will be the things to watch. They are the silent killers or the submarines from the Indian Navy’s 11{+t}{+h}squadron. Most Vizagites would have seen a submarine from close quarters at the INS Kursura submarine museum, but seeing the stealth machines in action will be a different experience.
Hoary history

And what makes them exciting and the makes the city proud is that Visakhapatnam has a hoary history when it comes to the submarines.

The Eastern Naval Command (ENC) was chosen above the more important Western Command to house the first submarine base in the country.

It was in Visakhapatnam and in the ENC that the first submarine INS Kalvari commanded by Commander K.S. Subramanian had silently sailed into, on July 6, 1968. The submarine and its crew was received by the then Chief of Naval Staff Admiral A.K. Chatterjee and Flag Officer of the East Coast, Rear-Admiral K.R. Nair.

It was the first of the Type 641 or Foxtrot class Russian submarines procured by India. The three others INS Khandari commanded by M.N. Vasudeva, INS Karanj commanded by M.N.R Samant and INS Kursura commanded by A. Auditto, followed between 1968 and 70, to form the 8{+t}{+h}Submarine Squadron and the first squadron of the country at INS Virbahu.

The effectiveness of submarines had come into focus during World War II, and India wanted to procure submarines, immediately after gaining Independence, but were dissuaded by the British Officers, who still continued to hold top positions, on the ground that Indians were not capable and trained in handling the sophisticated technology.

It was in 1959 that the first Indian to become Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Katari Ram Dass, proposed the purchase of four submarines from the British Navy at a cost of Rs. 16 crore and Rs. 2 crore, as recurring expenses for maintenance and running. But the proposal was shelved.

But the officers did not relent, and in 1962, a nine-member team led by Captain B.K. Dang was sent to HMS Dolphin, the submarine training school in UK, for training.

In 1963, a fresh proposal for acquiring ‘Porpoise’ or ‘Oberon’ class of subs were negotiated with the British, but they negated it and offered the aging ‘T’ class. The deal did not crystallise.

And finally in 1964, USSR agreed to train and sell four Foxtrot class subs and that’s how the story of the silent killers began with the Navy and ENC.

Never looked back

Since 1968, the Indian Navy never looked back, when it came to subs. In early 1970s, navy procured four more advanced Foxtrot class, which were christened as Vela Class. INS Vela, INS Vagir, INS Vagli and INS Vagsheer, joined the Navy to form the 9{+t}{+h}Squadron under the Western Command in Mumbai.

From 1986 to 2000, India procured 10 Kilo-class diesel-electric subs from Russia to form the Sindhughosh class. While four of them are based in ENC to form the 11{+t}{+h}Squadron, six of them are based in Mumbai.

Navy also procured four Type-1500 diesel-electric subs from Germany to form the 10{+t}{+h}squadron under the Shishumar class in Mumbai.

Today, navy has formidable submarine force with 14 diesel-electric submarines, one nuclear attack submarine INS Chakra and two SSBN in the making.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 29 Jan 2016 08:19

^^^^^
The T class subs that the British offered India in 1963 were designed in 1934 and considered obsolete. Shows how much regard our erstwhile colonial masters held us in, offering us pre-WWII junk...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Jan 2016 12:49

...and training some then refusing to sell us even junk! The poor Canadians fell for this trick decades later and bought ex-RN diesel subs (Oberon class?) which were an unmitigated disaster. Our Foxtrots and Kilos have served/serving us very well.much beyond their normal lifespan.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Jan 2016 13:14

Can someone please refresh Shri Karnad's memory on the "training mode" of Su-30MKI radars, and assure him all is well.

We still haven't got over his revolver-like contraption comment.

Bharat Karnad says: August 24, 2014 at 7:53 am The Arihant may benefit from a revolver-like contraption firing ballistic and cruise missiles; so the SSBN may carry more than just 4 K-4s/K-15s.

from http://bharatkarnad.com/2014/08/21/arih ... ng-depths/

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jan 2016 13:58

^^ Hes more worried about the other folks getting the overall signature of Arihant not Arihant using its own sonars..
Why even display the sub? AT least we'll get good pics hopefully..

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Jan 2016 15:29

^^ Yes, I well understood his PoV of other navies recording Arihant's signature even if Arihant does not use its sonar.

I used the MKI example to indicate that we do take preventive measures before even deciding to display Arihant.

One measure being the ambient noise in littoral waters that makes filtering the actual submarine's signature a pain.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/01/ ... ecked.html

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Jan 2016 15:32

I fully expect some Western media coming out with sotries after IFR about how rubbish Arihant is.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 29 Jan 2016 21:08

I hope they at least do a static display and photo op of Arihant.

She is not even commissioned yet ... how to IFR it

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jan 2016 22:14

tsarkar wrote:^^ Yes, I well understood his PoV of other navies recording Arihant's signature even if Arihant does not use its sonar.

I used the MKI example to indicate that we do take preventive measures before even deciding to display Arihant.

One measure being the ambient noise in littoral waters that makes filtering the actual submarine's signature a pain.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/01/ ... ecked.html

Understood but why even display the beast? Let it be our hidden ace in the hole, so to speak. Anyway, IN's choice.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Jan 2016 22:18

Ok, so I was going through the BEL- Thales AR to understand what their plans are.
http://www.bel-india.com/sites/default/ ... 014_15.pdf

The company is obliged to keep away from the existing
business being addressed by Joint Venturers as per Joint Venture Agreement.

So effectively, if DRDO makes products that can supplant the BEL-Thales ones, BEL is going to be unable to provide support. Good opportunity for TATA SED and L&T to step in.

But more relevant for this thread:

Major initiatives undertaken and planned to ensure sustained performance and growth. The Company is making efforts
towards co-development and local production of a Ka-Band Multi-Target Tracking Radar to address emerging potential market
segment

That radar (IMHO) is likely the Pharos.
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... ros_hr.pdf

So IN gets a Ka-band PESA for low RCS high speed threats which it can take out with its gun armament itself. Interesting!

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 29 Jan 2016 22:33

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:^^ Yes, I well understood his PoV of other navies recording Arihant's signature even if Arihant does not use its sonar.

I used the MKI example to indicate that we do take preventive measures before even deciding to display Arihant.

One measure being the ambient noise in littoral waters that makes filtering the actual submarine's signature a pain.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2012/01/ ... ecked.html
Understood but why even display the beast? Let it be our hidden ace in the hole, so to speak. Anyway, IN's choice.

I think, the boomer will not be on long range deterrent patrols but will be in bastion areas, in seas that are completely controlled by IN. It doesnt matter if they get the Sonar signature. Before anyone comes to get at the beast, they will have to come through so many layers.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 29 Jan 2016 22:54

If it is meant to be a training sub for all future boomers it better be able to sneak out into the deep Indian Ocean.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jan 2016 07:50

relax boys. I am sure enough measures are available like trailing out a couple of noisemakers to make sure sound is all messed up underwater.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 30 Jan 2016 07:56

Why even take stupid risks like that? The sub fleet of the NauSena is already depleted, secrecy is the best weapon atm. Such acts of bravado are better suited for systems are that already out in the open. Arihant and Arihant class subs shouldn't be shown for the next decade or so.

They have turned national defense into a stupid reality show. Keep it secret, keep it lowkey, leave the song and dance show to bollywood and sickular candle wallas. Learn something from the dear leader Deng taught us from across the border. Why attentionwhore when you are not ready?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jan 2016 10:32

Just tidbits.A second USN littoral ship developed problems and has had to be taken in for rectification,as well as the RN's latest type 45 DDG which needs a complete refit of her power systems to cost millions!
Our warships equipped with UKR/Ru and GE engines appear to be doing much better.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 30 Jan 2016 10:36

^^ subtle, phillip saar, very subtle lol.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jan 2016 11:43

More tit!
The IN should start experimenting/acquire at least supercat vessels that are of Oz design,also used by the USN for fast logistic auxiliaries.With Indo-Oz naval ties expanding,we should acquire and build in India the same.These could be great for fast missile craft,smaller amphib vessels ,landing craft,logistic ships,etc.INCAT/AUSTAL are the builders.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/te ... rce=tmgspk

Will supercavitation make submarines the new Concorde?

The weird new submarine technology of supercavitation could see subs whizzing beneath the Atlantic Ocean at 750mph, cutting travel time between London and New York to just five hours

By Rob Waugh
26 Jan 2016
Imagine a submarine that travels faster than a passenger jet – capable of sailing from London to New York in just five hours. It sounds like the sort of technology that Bond villains unveil with an evil laugh: but not only is it real, it already works, albeit on a smaller scale.

Last year, a Chinese researcher claimed that a new breakthrough in “supercavitation” means that submarines could soon slip through the water at up to 750mph, Wired reported, inside a “bubble” that allows them to travel at supersonic speed beneath the waves.

“Supercavitating” propellers and torpedos already exist – the technology works by reducing drag on an object as it moves through the water, creating a bubble of air that encompasses a vehicle, greatly reducing the skin friction as it passes through the water.

Some advocates have claimed that even higher speeds are possible, so long as a big enough bubble could be generated. A paper in 2001 claimed that it might be possible to travel from London to New York in an hour – or from Shanghai to San Francisco in 100 minutes.

The Ghost has been labelled one of the ‘game-changing’ weapons of the 21st century

Author Victoria Sturgeon wrote: “In supercavitation, the small gas bubbles produced by cavitation expand and combine to form one large, stable and predictable bubble around the supercavitating object.”

Unlike many “revolutionary” transport technologies, supercavitation has not only been shown to work in the real world, but it has actually been used. A supercavitating Soviet torpedo, the VA111 Shkval, was in production during the Seventies, capable of speeds of up to 230mph, far beyond any traditional torpedo. In 2005, Diehl Defence demonstrated an even faster missile, the Barracuda Mk 50.

If it works on a larger scale – large enough to envelop a submarine – the technology could change naval warfare and transport. The problem is that supercavitation is hard to achieve at low speed, so it is extremely hard for a submarine to even reach the speeds necessary to create the required bubble. Steering is also nearly impossible, because any rudders would need to operate outside the bubble and would therefore either slow the vehicle or snap off.

In 2014, an alleged leak from a lab in China suggested that the country was on the verge of unveiling a submarine capable of speeds of 3,000mph, though the claim was dismissed as “ludicrous” by observers.

Submarines could soon slip through the water at up to 750mph inside a ‘bubble’ that allows them to travel at supersonic speed

Li Feng Chen, a professor at the Harbin Institute of Technology, said that a breakthrough in its laboratory, using a liquid to maintain the bubble, meant that the vehicle could achieve supercavitation more easily and make it controllable.

“By combining liquid membrane technology with supercavitation, we can significantly reduce the launch challenges and make cruising control easier,” Prof Li said. He has since distanced himself from some of the comments made in an interview in 2014 with the South China Morning Post.

Other countries are thought to be actively researching the technology – though details are hard to come by because it is highly classified. But one vehicle already uses supercavitation above the water: Juliet Marine System’s Ghost, a high-speed, lightweight stealth craft designed for the infiltration and surveillance of enemy waters. Business Insider labelled the craft one of the “game-changing” weapons of the 21st century.

The Ghost is not a fully supercavitating vessel. Instead, its propellers are supercavitating, meaning it can travel at high speeds when it is raised out of the water on two blade-like pontoons. So far, it has been tested at speeds up of 34mph but Juliet Marine Systems promises future versions of the vehicle will be capable of up to 57mph. For a warship, that is incredibly fast.

The prototype vehicle is currently on show at arms fairs around the world, with several governments understood to have expressed interest. “It's a revolutionary programme,” said Gregory Sancoff, chief executive of Juliet Marine Systems. “Nothing like this has ever been built by anybody, not even the navy.”

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 30 Jan 2016 22:17

Probably the most detailed visuals of the MARCOS in any video so far?

Also, you can see the u/c Vikrant at CSL around ~4:32 elapsed. And see which helo is being used at that instant

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Jan 2016 23:38

http://nextbigfuture.com/2016/01/usa-is ... dlier.html
Next Big Future: USA is not buying the cheaper and deadlier AIP stealth submarine capabilities but the rest of the world is

The Song- and Yuan-class attack submarines are equipped with German-made state-of-the-art diesel engines — the 396 SE84 series — designed by MTU Friedrichshafen GmbH of Friedrichshafen, Germany.“They are the world’s leading submarine diesel engines,” according to an experienced submarine engineer. Each Song- and Yuan-class vessel is equipped with three such engines, which have been built under license by Chinese defense contractors since 1986. The Yuan-class is also said to have incorporated quieting technology from Russian-designed subs and to be equipped with Stirling air-independent propulsion technology.China has also been experimenting with lithium-ion (Li-Ion) batteries, power sources that offer much higher energy density and longer dive times. “Chinese researchers clearly see Li-Ion batteries as the wave of the future for conventional submarine propulsion. They’re not there yet, but they are determined to get there,” Erickson noted. Erickson said China was discussing putting Li-Ion batteries “on a new generation of conventional subs sometime between now and 2020, but there is no indicator as yet of the type of submarine that might be.”

Nuclear submarines may see a revival in cost effectiveness in 15-20 years when a new generation of molten salt reactors become available. However, for now there is little reason economically or militarily for nuclear submarines.Nuclear submarines have 20 megawatts of power compared to 3 megawatts for diesel submarines. There is no need for high power for any new laser or other weapon systems.The US is looking to add unmanned submarines for about $40 million each. Capable unmanned submarines seem to be 5-10 years away. The unmanned systems could track other submarines or operate as part of pack working with a primary manned mothership submarine.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Jan 2016 03:12