Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2016 22:30

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-T8oxsi6C2As/U ... g164-1.jpg

The san francisco ssn 771 was repaired by replacing her bow section with a newly retired sister submarine. She is doing fine and due to be retired in 2017 after a 27 year career

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2016 22:34

shiv wrote:
Rakesh wrote:My other question is how will the vessel manage diving and surfacing with a new front end and an older back end?

Rakesh V!agra creates a new front end for an old back end - just sayin..

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 06 Dec 2016 22:51

Rakesh wrote:
titash wrote:Hello Admiral, I couldn't figure out how to access the PM (probably old email id). I replied to you at hotmail from new email ID. Please reply there...

Saar, please go to the top right hand corner of BR forum and right next to your name, you will see a mail icon. Click on that and you should see the PM.


Found it. Thank you sirjee - and no worries :D

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ManSingh » 06 Dec 2016 23:09

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:tough old dogs ships in general seem to be.

I am guessing that apart from armour plating ships in general are somewhat resistant to lateral compression - that is to say - by design they have a degree of "springiness" that allows them to be lifted out of the water and then slam down and sink 20 meters in heavy seas. The structural integrity in warships should be able to take the compression wave of at least some explosions going off next to the hull. So they are not eggshells. Whales are not eggshells either - their ribs don't break on land - they stay alive and breathing till dehydration and exhaustion kills them. After all those guys can stand compression down to 500 plus meters and still leap out of the water and fall bang on the surface.

Meanwhile here is the abstract of a paid paper - I am not buying - just quoting
Different Methods of Refloating a Ship
In the shipping industry it is vital for a ships construction to take into consideration any grounding event that might occur, due to the fact that grounding has been representing an important issue in the maritime industry being almost always connected to a catastrophic pollution of the marine environment.


Here's more info
http://www.daaam.info/Downloads/Pdfs/pr ... miatal.pdf


First a Minor nitpick. Apologies.

Whales die on land due to their body structure not being able to support their weight which crushes their organs.

My thinking might be wrong but the current scenario is similar to a khan land tractor trailer laying on its side. While upright a tractor trailer can pull 40000 lbs of load. When laying in its side, all the load has to be emptied before even making an attempt to upright it lest its walls collapse.
Even if the ship is made to float again, it will be a lot of effort to bring structural integrity to the same level as earlier. No one can really know how much stress all its beams took in the accident. Verifying each rivet, beam etc is simply too exhaustive.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 06 Dec 2016 23:16

vina wrote:6. The hull is damaged beyond economical repair. Even if they re float it (to clear the dock) , it is kaput. It will go the Alang or wherever to get taken apart for scrap. This is not case of ship settling in the bottom on it's keel like Vindhyagiri or a ship running aground on a sand bar / reef. The ship has been damaged in it's structurally weakest point (i.e., the girder strength is weakest in the transverse direction). I would not be surprised if the ship has not cracked apart and is lying broken in two.


Ship salvage and repair is much more common than we think (even for ships with battle damage). Structural & non-structural metal damage can be easily repaired, and electronics and machinery can be replaced rather than repaired assuming they're still in production. Getting upgraded electronics is not that difficult but those steam turbines and gearboxes may be out of production.

I think what is clear is the ship is severely damaged and needs to be (1) set upright, (2) perform damage assessment, (3) order replacement items, (4) start performing repairs. Hopefully we'll be done in 2-3 years. Irrespective, we will have to spend $$$ and make do with a missing surface unit for 2-3 years. That is a reality.

If the cost of repair & time to repair is very large, then we may simply scrap her and add an 8th P-17A or 5th Talwar ship (whichever's cheaper/faster). One good thing is the INS Godavari retired recently; hopefully there's a lot of commonality between these 2 ships and much can be salvaged to get INS Betwa back to sea quickly.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2016 23:28

Good summary titash for path forward.


Folks lets post news as it comes and comment only on that.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2016 23:53

Bishwa wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/navy-plans-to-salvage-rs-600-crore-ins-betwa-which-lies-on-its-side-flooded-1634772?pfrom=home-topstories

Some points
1) sea-water ingress into its engine room.
2) 10 per cent of the weaponry that is installed on the warship was actually onboard.
3) the Navy is confident that the ship will be set upright though the process of repairing and making her battle-ready could take up to two years.
4) The mast of the ship which contains crucial sensors was shorn off the vessel yesterday and major damage is expected on its surface which is resting on its side.
5) In January, 2011, the frigate INS Vindhyagiri sank at her berth after a major collision. She was raised only to be sailed out and used as target practice.



Quite a good report from NDTV


Mumbai:


Highlights


1 3850-tonne INS Betwa collapsed on its side at a dry naval dock in Mumbai
2 Navy says repairing and making the ship battle-ready could take 2 years
3 Experts have been brought in, some from abroad, to salvage the ship

A day after two Indian Navy sailors were killed after the 3850 tonne guided missile frigate INS Betwa collapsed on its side inside a Naval dry dock in Mumbai, new details are emerging on the extent of the damage.

NDTV has learned that 25 per cent of the frigate, which was built and commissioned at a cost of Rs. 600 crores, is flooded. This includes sea-water ingress into its engine room. At the time of the accident, only 10 per cent of the weaponry that is installed on the warship was actually onboard.

Despite the massive damage to the INS Betwa which was commissioned in 2006, the Navy is confident that the ship will be set upright though the process of repairing and making her battle-ready could take up to two years.

The mast of the ship which contains crucial sensors was shorn off the vessel yesterday and major damage is expected on its surface which is resting on its side.
In a statement, the spokesperson of the Indian Navy, Captain DK Sharma has said, "Salvers have come in, some from abroad to salvage the ship."

It's unclear though how salvage experts intend to raise the ship which weighs 1,500 tonnes, more than the INS Sindhurakshak, the submarine that sank at its mooring at the Naval dockyards in Mumbai on August 2013. It had taken more than 8 months to raise the Sindhurakshak.

Images of the INS Betwa at the Naval dockyards indicate the presence of another warship next to it, INS Pralay, at the Navy's narrow Cruiser Graving Dock in Mumbai.

Sources have told NDTV that it may not be possible to remove the missile corvette Pralay from its location until the INS Betwa is set afloat and removed.


Navy officers have told NDTV that the dry dock where the INS Betwa was being refitted was being flooded to enable the warship to float out of the dock.

25% of the frigate,
built and commissioned at a cost of Rs. 600 crores, is flooded

This is a delicate and time consuming process where the crew of the warship and the Dock Master who is a senior Navy officer need to ensure that the centre of gravity and centre of buoyancy of the warship, key to its stability in the water, are both maintained to ensure there is no incident.

In this case, there appear to have been grave mistakes committed in the process of floating the warship which resulted in the frigate crashing to its side.


As the Navy aims to find a solution to the crisis involving INS Betwa, NDTV has learned that a big priority is also to clear the dock to enable other ships to be refitted. At the moment, there are three other operational dry docks at the Naval dockyard in Mumbai though they are considerably smaller than the Cruiser Graving Dock. A new, large dock on the Outer Tidal Basin of the Navy facility has still not been commissioned.

The INS Betwa is the third Indian Navy vessel to have met with an accident while docked.

.......


I cut out unnecessary details.

My take is this is a Normal Accident.

The undocking is a complex process and is closely coupled system: means a small change in one place has large consequences elsewhere.
They have done this successfully before many times.
During such long spells human factors kick in.

Normal Accident Theory Charles Perrow.

BTW, Bharat Karnad was saying about 17 major incidents since 2010.

Heinrich's Industrial Accidents says 88 near misses precede 10 major accidents and 2 catastrophes.

This is a famous Safety Engineering standard. It has been validated by many studies in US and Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_William_Heinrich

Numbers may be off but there are a large number of precursors to major catastrophes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 06 Dec 2016 23:54

Rakesh wrote:Saar, I am assuming you are referring to the bulkheads when you state the internal structure is sound. Now in the torpedo room where the explosion happened, the bulkheads are definitely warped or damaged beyond repair. Thus an entire new front end will have to put in right? My other question is how will the vessel manage diving and surfacing with a new front end and an older back end? I don't know, so I am asking. will the structural rigidity still be the same?

Ships routinely replace structural parts during refits. So cutting and shaping metal is a very standard job.

Complex jobs are piping & wiring - to ensure they join perfectly along different sections - to maintain integrity. Piping is essential for ballast and trimming.

The other complex jobs are installing new engines, shafts, systems like sonar, etc.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2014/09/d ... ul-to.html
An overhaul, or refit, conducted every 10 to 15 years, extends a submarine’s life by repairing its hull and modernising its combat capability. It involves examining, repairing and even replacing parts of the hull (two hulls in the Kilo-class, an inner “pressure hull” and an outer hull); replacing worn out cabling; and replacing or upgrading major weapons, sensors and communication systems.


The “pressure hull build up” --- in which pits on the hull surface are filled with metal --- doubled (See chart below). So did the “frame renewal”, or replacement of the metal framework that supports the hull. The grinding work expanded almost three-fold. The time-consuming and costly work of replacing entire hull plates went up 13-fold from what the Sindhughosh required in Russia. The conning tower, which was only repaired in earlier refits, had to be entirely rebuilt.


If all this work is done during refit, it can be done to rebuild the Sindhurakshak.

Life of radars & other electronics is roughly 10 years and governed by Moore's Law.

Furthermore, INS Sindhukirti’s refit involved extensive modernisation. Like the Sindhughosh and Sindhudvaj, its torpedo tubes were modified to fire Klub missiles against surface targets. Unlike them, it also got a new MCA inertial navigation suite, a Palady nerve system, and a Pirit ship control console. Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) installed indigenous Ushus sonar and upgraded communications. As the submarine was being reassembled, Russian overseers ordered a time-consuming replacement of all the main line cabling.


Sindhurakshak refit is technically possible, and Indian/Russian systems are relatively cheaper.

To answer your second question, diving is a function of ballast tanks, diving planes and rudders. Needless to say, structural integrity is also checked after refits.

Personally I think INS Sindhurakshak will be a good project for HSL

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tsarkar » 07 Dec 2016 00:12

ManSingh wrote:My thinking might be wrong but the current scenario is similar to a khan land tractor trailer laying on its side. While upright a tractor trailer can pull 40000 lbs of load. When laying in its side, all the load has to be emptied before even making an attempt to upright it lest its walls collapse.

Any ship before it enters dry dock is emptied of fuel, weapons, rations etc because it's dead weight and avoid potential safety issues of possible "cook off"' of weapon propellant/warhead. And warship sides are strongly built unlike tractor trailers. In old times they were armour plated to take impact of shells.

ManSingh wrote:Even if the ship is made to float again, it will be a lot of effort to bring structural integrity to the same level as earlier. No one can really know how much stress all its beams took in the accident. Verifying each rivet, beam etc is simply too exhaustive.

There are portable ultrasonic testing equipment to verify each rivet & beam. If not sound, the structure is changed even during refits. Even aircraft during overhaul have structural parts of airframes replaced, like MiG-29 tail planes that stressed more than anticipated.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29
In March 2009, the Indian Air Force expressed concern after 90 MiG-29s were grounded in Russia. After carrying out an extensive inspection, the IAF cleared all MiG-29s in its fleet in March 2009. In a disclosure in Parliament, Defence Minister A. K. Antony said the MiG-29 is structurally flawed in that it has a tendency to develop cracks due to corrosion in the tail fin. Russia has shared this finding with India, which emerged after the crash of a Russian Air Force MiG-29 in December 2008. "A repair scheme and preventive measures are in place and IAF has not encountered major problems concerning the issue," Antony said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Dec 2016 03:34

Tsarkar ji, wouldn't it be a good idea to replace Sindhurakshak with newly made in russia latest version 636 kilo? Russians seem to be churning them out at great speed.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2016 04:15

What about money?

Maybe the refit might be affordable.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rishirishi » 07 Dec 2016 04:37

Best bet is to pump out the water and cut the ship up. Save as much as you can in the process. A new ship will be much better. Sell off the docs or use the land for something better. Such things should just not happen.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2016 05:25

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:Hakeem,
The ship did not fall down from anywhere. It was on its keel, and went from vertical to horizontal as the water started filling in.


Ah there's hope then..

Actually, the amount of the water in the dock at the time of the mishap can be very accurately guessed. It must been just enough lift the ship just free of the docking blocks. Without this the ship could not have started to list. However, there was not enough water to stabilize the list and arrest the listing. Therefore, the same continued till the ship was completely on its side. At this point, the water started to enter from the open decks. The ship takes in water and sinks to the bottom of the dock.

Under this sequence of things, internal equipment may have been dislodged due to buckling but not shock. Ships in high sea states are capable of taking significant amount of trashing. However, the longer the ship on its side, the more will be the warping of things like shafts. So, the ship will be erected within weeks.

Also, I don't believe that the draining the dock will increase the stress on the ship. The buoyancy provided by the water in this condition is very limited. My theory is that they will insert deflated airbags in the gap between the ship and the dock floor generated by the dock blocks. They will drain the dock and then come up with a way to set the ship upright.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 05:38

Repairing the SR would be a mammoth task.Her innards are presumably non-existant.She would have to be cut open to replace compartments.Faster and cheaper to acquire new Kilos.

The Betwa can be salvaged, but will take time and cost a bomb.How many more years of active life is in her has to be assesed after examination of the damage.Major blow to thr IN's ASW capability.
Last edited by Philip on 07 Dec 2016 05:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2016 05:41

Philip wrote:The Betwa can be salvaged, but will take time and cost a bomb

How do you know this?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 05:55

No explosions,fires inside destroying eqpt. unlike the sub.Limited flooding of compartments from reports.Capsized warships have been put back into service in the past.Her masts and radars appear to be a write off though. Remember years ago how the Viraat's engine room was inadvertantly flooded while in the naval dockyard.
She served for 20 years after that.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2016 08:05

Her commissioning cost in early 2004 was Rs. 600 crores. They had to get foreign salvage consultants already.
So it will cost quite a bit.

They have to clear the area first to get access to other ship near it.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 09:10

All in all, it is a major f*ck up by the Navy on a very routine stuff. Docking/undocking hull maintenance is so ho-hum. It is just rank incompetence, and there will be heads rolling for this for sure.

The only saving grace in all this is, it is the Navy itself which dropped it's toy on a concrete floor and shattered it. If it had been a "civilian" (Think GSL, GRSE,MDL, or HSL, though now all of them are MOD owned) yard that did this, the uniformed worthies would have been baying for their blood.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2016 09:19

As seen in ssn 771 they cut off the front section of sub and replaced with new. We could build or order a new front section for srakshak and fit it out in vizag

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rishi Verma » 07 Dec 2016 09:40

vina wrote:All in all, it is a major f*ck up by the Navy on a very routine stuff. Docking/undocking hull maintenance is so ho-hum. It is just rank incompetence, and there will be heads rolling for this for sure.

The only saving grace in all this is, it is the Navy itself which dropped it's toy on a concrete floor and shattered it. If it had been a "civilian" (Think GSL, GRSE,MDL, or HSL, though now all of them are MOD owned) yard that did this, the uniformed worthies would have been baying for their blood.


And the propensity to seek "foreign assistance" was predictable and has been sought. Pathetic preparedness, equipment, training in the country in general. Even when pune-mumbai expressway had a mudslide they brought in Italian "experts". And they promptly designed a netting made of jute.

The main reason is no one wants to take responsibility and subsequent blame To take up a challenging task which was never done before, we only do what's taught in text books. So safest bet is to get "foreign help" - always first order thinking

Here the excuse is they don't have cranes big enough but they can use multiple cranes and find a solution...

No Crane Big Enough...

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 10:31

Singha wrote:As seen in ssn 771 they cut off the front section of sub and replaced with new. We could build or order a new front section for srakshak and fit it out in vizag

Subs, unlike surface ships (okay, leaving out the latest and bestest where it is done on surface ships), the modules are fully outfitted (think plumbing, wiring, major equipment etc etc) and then assembled. In ships, just the structure (along with a bit of piping maybe) was done modularly and then an army of outfitters swarmed over the ship over the next 2 years or so fully outfitting it with equipment and engines etc.

Cutting up the wrecked sub hull and ripping and removing equipment (it was sunk and flooded) 100% is simply not worthwhile. You might as well build a new one from ground up. Will be done faster and quicker and probably cheaper.

San Francisco is a different case. If you carefully see what happened, they cut out the entire front modules ( ballast tank and sonar ) (the hull wasn't punctured, no equipment flooding happened, the sub wasn't flooded etc, no other equipment required replacement) from a sister sub and replaced those. Unfortunately the work on SR is orders of magnitude more than the SF. SO the SR is a pure hull write off / museum piece / structural learning test specimen / donated to the Madrassas for analysis (choose your pick).

The SinduRakshak refurbish and reuse etc is a fool's errand.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Austin » 07 Dec 2016 10:33

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 6230152192

Why we should worry. Three of most serious naval accidents in the past 5 yrs have been in the naval dockyard, Mumbai. 1 sq km area.


Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 11:15

Hindu report.
INS Betwa , the frigate that keeled over at the naval dockyard in Mumbai on Monday, will be salvaged and made battle-ready, the Navy said on Tuesday.

While being undocked as part of the ongoing refit on Monday, the guided missile frigate tipped over to its left, killing two people and injuring 14.

“The Navy shall ‘upright’ the ship and make her operational in the shortest possible time,” Navy spokesperson D.K. Sharma said.

To make an assessment on how the ship could be lifted up, professional salvers are expected to reach Mumbai on Wednesday. Capt. Sharma said that they would complete an initial assessment in two days.

Rear Admiral Deepak Bali, Flag Officer offshore Defence Advisory Group, has been named to head the Board of Inquiry constituted to investigate the incident.

Undergoing refit

The 4,000-tonne Brahmaputra-class frigate was undergoing a scheduled two-year medium refit which started on April 15, 2016. The initial cost was estimated at Rs. 650 crore, but by the time of commissioning in July 2004, it went up to Rs. 1,200-1,300 crore.

As part of preparing the hull, the ship went into the dry dock on October 20 and was being undocked when the accident occurred.

In the dry dock a ship is mounted on dock blocks for support.

The blocks are made largely of hard steel with special wood fixed on top to avoid friction when the ship sits on them.

During undocking, water is pumped in at a controlled rate into the dock and the ship moves out once it leaves the blocks and floats on its own.

“It is being looked into if there was a failure of the dock blocks or if something went wrong in calculating the sequence of events like the rate of flooding, at what stage the ship leaves the blocks and when it will float on its own,” a senior officer said.

The ship has completely turned over on its port side and is 25 per cent under water. Officials said most of the critical equipment was removed
.


PS:This supposed to be the first time in the history of naval annals that such an accident has happened.Some dubious record!
Last edited by ramana on 07 Dec 2016 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold. ramana

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2016 11:23

Not in naval annals, but in Indian navy's annals.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby prashanth » 07 Dec 2016 11:26

The dock looks clumsy and poorly planned. I presume that the thin arm (next to which INS Vindhyagiri capsized) was artificially built. Could they have not built it at right angles to the main arm, so that ships have more space to move around. Why are those smaller ships spaced so close that they almost touch one another? Isn't that unsafe during strong tides?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2016 11:28

Rishi sir,

The propensity of going foreign is because the number of salvaging companies worldwide is less than the number of fingers on one's hand. There not so many ships waiting to be uprighted to make business sense for more.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 11:30

tx.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/ins- ... 27798.html
INS Betwa slippage: Never seen anything like this, negligence likely cause says naval community
INS Betwa was in the process of undocking when she slipped from her dock blocks and tilted.

Jugal R Purohit | Posted by Ashna Kumar
New Delhi, December 6, 2016 |
INS Betwa slips
HIGHLIGHTS
1Navy's guided missile frigate INS Betwa tipped over at the naval dockyard in Mumbai.
2The incident happened around 1:50 pm.
3There looms a question mark on her ability to recover.
"It falls under the category of rarest of rare," said the captain, referring to the 'slipping' of INS Betwa inside the Naval Dockyard in Mumbai.
The Indian Navy's (IN) self-designed and built frigate named INS Betwa embodied the spirit of being the 'impregnable'. It is a fact evident from its crest which sports the Stupa of Sanchi, located on the banks of Betwa river in Vidisha, Madhya Pradesh.
On Monday, after putting in nearly 12 years and five months in service, at about 1:50pm, something gave away. The impact of it was so severe that it plunged the ship into the muddy waters inside Mumbai's Naval Dockyard. Nearly 12 hours later, it remains there. What also remains is a solid question mark over her ability to even recover.
According to a statement released by the IN, INS Betwa was 'In the process of undocking when she slipped from her dock blocks and tilted'. The IN also said that a 'technical evaluation' was underway to make the ship upright. Chief of Naval Staff (CNS) Admiral Sunil Lanba will spend time in Mumbai on Tuesday getting first hand information of the circumstances.
Simply put, undocking is an action of setting the ship free from the dock that holds her. The way to undock a ship is to let her float on her own. Thus, inside the dock, where the INS Betwa had gone for refit, in a controlled manner, sea water is allowed in. Once the ship finds adequate water to attain buoyancy, it undocks.
NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE
Commanded by Captain Uday Thapar, an aviator, the settings that trap INS Betwa evoke strong feelings among those who've dealt with docking and undocking of ships like the INS Betwa and even bigger ones.

They say they are stumped at what their eyes are seeing. While the IN did not release any footage, images obtained through sources have shocked observers. India Today spoke to several naval officers, serving and retired. Most of them said they'd never come across anything like this even as a case study far less an actual prospect.
"Either the dock slabs were placed wrongly or the dock blocks were corroded. The weight calculations were faulty and that is why it tipped over," said a retired officer. Another senior officer, belonging to the technical branch added, "Ships start floating from the forepeak (front portion) which keeps them stable during undocking. Problem arises if she starts floating from the rear first". He said he was 'deeply saddened' at seeing 'such a sorry spectacle'.

SIGNS OF SHORT CUTS TAKEN: RETIRED ADMIRAL
Dinesh Chauhan, a former Coast Guard Commandant and a technical officer who has overseen several undockings said, "This is simply unimaginable. Unlike a merchant ship whose body is U-shaped, a naval or coast guard ship is V-shaped so stability has to be maintained at all costs". According to him, the Admiral Superintendent (ASD) at the Naval Dockyard, Western Naval Command's Command Technical Officer and the crew o the ship need to be held accountable.
A retired Rear Admiral who too was a technical officer said, "This has all the signs of a short cut taken or a negligence shown, especially from the ship's crew. You can keep saying that the civilian workforce does a shoddy job but that is precisely the reason why you are deployed - to effectively overlook matters and intervene when required".
In January 2011, another naval frigate, INS Vindhyagiri had listed on its left (port side) and gone down inside the naval dockyard following a collision a sea with a merchant ship. While the IN did eventually set her upright, she had to be written off. So severe was the damage. In August 2013, the Sindhughosh-class submarine, INS Sindhurakshak too sank inside the shallow waters of the dockyard following a massive explosion on board. Neither the crew on board nor the submarine survived, even though a complex salvage operation saw the boat being lifted out of water months after the incident.
Last edited by Philip on 07 Dec 2016 11:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Dec 2016 11:39

ramana wrote:What about money?

Maybe the refit might be affordable.


It took Sindhukirti 8 years for upgrade, probably it will cost here more to refit than to buy at price vietnam got readymade from russkies.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2016 12:04

I think foreign warship builders have moved to modular construction of ships also..we are somewhere on the way. the modules are completed to a high degree before welding together. the americans complete the entire 1000t island on their CVNs and then lift it into place....awe inspiring scale of bundobast and tight tftaness.


Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2016 12:06

Image

sum
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby sum » 07 Dec 2016 12:18

Another senior officer, belonging to the technical branch added, "Ships start floating from the forepeak (front portion) which keeps them stable during undocking. Problem arises if she starts floating from the rear first". He said he was 'deeply saddened' at seeing 'such a sorry spectacle'.

:( :(

Terrible reputation building up here

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 12:19

It cost 1200 crores.Built only recently.Worth salvaging if the cost and time factor to do so are reasonable. The IN has said 1.5 yrs.,but without it being returned upright and without examining the vessel after that to assess damage,etc.,how could it come to such a conclusion? Heads will roll.
In days gone by,the NOIC in charge of the entire base and overall responsibility was that of the rank of a Cmde. He had under his belt one CV,several subs, two cruisers,destroyers,frigates,missile boats,etc In 2000 there was a Cmde. Dockyard to assist the NOIC now of flag rank We now have an Adm. Supdt.for the dockyard.No doubt complexity and number of warships and subs have increased,but what about responsibility that comes with rank? The list of warship/sub accidents in recent times as BK has listed isn't to the credit of the service. When INS Andamans sank a couple of decades ago during an exercise in peacetime, it was considered the worst accident that the IN had had since inception.

Two factors have been responsible for the current crisis.Firstly ,the utter neglect of mil matters under the UPA and AKA,and failure of provioding the IN with the neccessary spares,etc. critically required. Secondly the declining standards of seamanship and maintenance in the IN as pointed out in the past by many senior IN officers themselves. The NDA is getting to grips with urgent decision-making for all 3 services,but it will not produce overnight results. Adm.Joshi resigned bearing responsibility for the acccidents during his tenure,but also highlighted the neglect by the govt. of the time of the IN's most urgent requirements like sub batteries,etc. Adm.Lanba has just taken over.It is now upto him to have as highest priority the highest fighting condition of his naval assets and the highest stds. of maintenance of the same
at the shore establishments..One wishes him and the service the very best of luck.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 12:34

Singha wrote:I think foreign warship builders have moved to modular construction of ships also..we are somewhere on the way. the modules are completed to a high degree before welding together. the americans complete the entire 1000t island on their CVNs and then lift it into place....awe inspiring scale of bundobast and tight tftaness.


The picture you are posted is rather old school modular construction. The 1000t lift of islands / bridges of commercial ships have been on since late 60s atleast the following pic falls in this bin.
Image

The key is the gantry capacity crane in the yard. The bigger the gantry capacity, the larger modules you can have. I was digging around and simply STUNNED at the advances Cheen has made in this kind of infra.

Check out this Taisun Crane of their Yantai-Raffles yard. It has a 20,000 ton. Yes, no error in the number. This is TWENTY times the capacity of the cranes you will find in the yards in US and Europe ..

With that kind of capacity, they will crank out ships Ka-Ching-Ka-Ching with boring regularity and quality. Same scene with their heavy presses. Their investments in making 100,000 ton presses are unprecedented. When Alocoa and Wyman Gordon presses were made in the 60s, their capacity was very Shakinah. But Cheen has out Shakinaahed everyone else by a massive magnitude in Shakinaness. There are things to be said for a authoritarian and focsused command economy that is ruthlessly focused on it's goals.

Check out his pic of the Taisun crane lifting a whopping 17,000 ton deck in place
Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 12:47

Philip wrote:Two factors have been responsible for the current crisis.Firstly ,the utter neglect of mil matters under the UPA and AKA,and failure of provioding the IN with the neccessary spares,etc. critically required. Secondly the declining standards of seamanship and maintenance in the IN as pointed out in the past by many senior IN officers themselves. .


Betwa had NOTHING to do with either spares/budgets or seamanship. It is RANK INCOMPETENCE. Boats are dragged out of the water in literally THOUSANDS (think trawlers to random fishing vessels to naval vessels to the entire global commercial fleet of all stripes) EVERY DAY and put back into it. Why even in India, you drive around any civilised coastline in you will see trawlers etc being pulled out of the water and put back in every day in dozens.

You go tell them that the Navy with their high Harrumphing affasurs managed to crash a boat on it's side in a dry dock, they will laugh their head off at you! It is unimaginable and I had responded to this on the very first day to some poster when I said that mankind has been doing this sort of thing going back to pre history over thousands of years in practically EVERY culture and I simply can't imagine this thing happening.

This is like taking your car to a mechanic /car wash (I am talking the old style, ramp guy , not the newer fangled car hoist guys) , handing over the keys to them and come back after two hours and then find your car crashed on the side after falling off from the ramp. That is how INCOMPETENT it is.
Last edited by vina on 07 Dec 2016 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby hnair » 07 Dec 2016 12:50

vina, the chances of having a 20k tonner at a particular dock is low. Thesei chinese (and even that old Malmo eyesore) are not easily movable even between docks of a single yard. The closest to what is needed in this Betwa situation would be those wheeled boat hoists like the 1000-ton Marine Travelift, used for lifting out and moving to inland-based storage of big luxury yachts et al.

So we need to look at other options to re-float this one. Probably pontoons

Yeah, this does look like someone at yard did not follow normal procedures of what is a routine event (floating out) for a yard. Will know what exactly happened after inquiry comes out

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 12:52

hnair wrote:vina, the chances of having a 20k tonner at a particular dock is low.

These are purely in building yards. They are meant for that purpose ONLY. They are not meant to be moved around. The repair docks (like the Navy one) will have far smaller cranes.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ranjan.rao » 07 Dec 2016 12:55

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/no-crane-big-enough-to-lift-tilted-warship-foreign-help-sought/articleshow/55846482.cms
MUMBAI: A day after warship INS Betwa toppled at the naval dockyard here, killing two and injuring 22, the Indian Navy has yet to figure out a way to lift the ship and has called in foreign experts.

The Navy does not have a crane that can lift the 3,850-tonne frigate, which is floating in the dry dock since she keeled over on Monday. The cranes available with the Navy can lift only 100 tonne. Mazgaon Dock has a crane with a capacity of 300 tonne, but it can't be shifted out of the premises.

The salvage operation, which a time-consuming process, will cost a few crores of rupees , said a naval officer.

Indian Navy's spokesperson in Mumbai, Commander Rahul Sinha, said the chief of naval staff Admiral Sunil Lanba visited the naval dockyard on Tuesday and was briefed about the incident. "He also met the injured sailors in naval hospital INHS Asvini.

A few specialists are likely to reach Mumbai on December 7 and are likely to complete the initial assessment within two days.

The Indian Navy shall set upright the ship and make her operational in the shortest possible time," said Sinha.
Indian Navy spokesperson (Delhi) Captain D K Sharma said that salvers will arrive on Wednesday to assess the damage. Rear Admiral Deepak Bali (FODAG) will head the board of inquiry into the mishap.

On Tuesday, the tilted warship was floating in water in the dry dock. "The dock can't now be deflooded as it could further damage the hull of the ship. Also, the dock can't be flooded because any further water ingress through the damaged part will create further problems. The authorities are in a fix because this is the first such incident the Indian Navy has witnessed and foreign experts may have to be called," said the officer.

The salvage operation will be time-consuming and can be done only after the specialists assess the nature and extent of damage. The officer said the casualties could have been high had the warship toppled when it was undergoing a refit, when hundreds of personnel were present in the drydock.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 12:58

China is light years ahead of the world in almost every type of construction.barring N-subshats off to them.I saw a video of a rail bridge laying exercise ,huge modular spans.Great technique.We need to get assistance from either SoKo or Japan for the same. Ru help in N sub-building especially.No time like the present.

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2 ... -21_653875
Russia, India to hold Indra NAVY-2016 on December 14-21
6 December 2016 TASS
The joint naval exercise will consist of two stages - coastal and naval.

Russia, India agree on types of warships to take part in Indra Navy 2016
Russia to dispatch missile cruiser to Syria after Indra Navy-2015

INDRA-2016, INDIAN NAVY, RUSSIAN NAVY, DRILLS
Indra Navy 2015
The joint naval exercise will consist of two stages - coastal and naval. Source:mil.ru
The Russian-Indian Indra NAVY-2016 naval exercise will be held on December 14-21 in the southeastern Indian coastal city of Visakhapatnam and in the Bay of Bengal, a military spokesman said Tuesday.

Russian Eastern Military District spokesman for the Pacific Fleet Capt. 2nd Rank Vladimir Matveyev said the dates and the location were agreed during the latest meeting of Russian and Indian officials, charged with preparing the event.

‘During the conference, the Russian and Indian side agreed to hold the exercises in the period from December 14 to 21. The Indra NAVY-2016 will consist of two stages - coastal and naval," he said.

Why INDRA matters to Russia and India
The coastal part will be held on December 14-18 in the city of Visakhapatnam, while the naval will take place in the Bay of Bengal on December 19-21.

A source in India’s Navy earlier told Russian reporters that at least three vessels from each side will participate in the drills. The Indian task force will consist of a destroyer, a corvette and a tanker, and also naval air support.

Spokesman for the Eastern Military District, Colonel Alexander Gordeyev, told TASS earlier that the Russian side will send a large anti-submarine ship of Project 1155, a destroyer of Project 956, the Kamov Ka-27 anti-submarine helicopter, a tanker and a sea tug to the drills.

The first Russian-Indian naval exercises were held in May 2003. The name Indra was coined in 2005. The Indra exercises were held in 2007, 2014 and 2015.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2016 13:48

A Chinese development that could be tried out by our boffins.It could also explain why the Arihant's anechoic coating appears to have grooves in it.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies ... submarines
The Chinese acoustics research that might help shield submarines from sonar
Researchers working on a new system they hope will be more effective in hiding submarines from detection under the sea

PUBLISHED : Monday, 05 December, 2016,
Stephen Chen

Chinese scientists are developing a technique they hope will be able to make submarines invisible to sonar detection under the sea.
If successful, it would ultimately involve covering subs with special rings made of aluminium alloys.
The researchers at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing and Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan in Hubei province experimented with rings about 14 cm across and with periodically etched grooves.
They found that sound waves were guided around the rings rather than bouncing back, which would allow them to be traced by sonar detectors.
Sound waves were guided around the rings rather than bouncing back.
Photo: SCMP Pictures
The grooves were able to steer the sound waves in a set direction like cars travelling on an expressway.
The researchers published details of their work earlier this month in the scientific journal Nature Communications.
‘Underwater Great Wall’: Chinese firm proposes building network of submarine detectors to boost nation’s defence

The scientists were originally using the technology - called a topological insulator - to control the movement of electrons to reduce heating in computer chips, but they later realised it also had applications for sound waves.
Several rings could work together to direct sound waves in almost any direction, potentially hiding a submarine from sonar in the future.
Other researchers have been working on the technology, but the Beijing and Huazhong researchers said their system was the simplest.
Our method is simpler. It does not require moving parts

CHINESE RESEARCHER INVOLVED IN RINGS PROJECT
A research team at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore constructed an array of cylinders creating similar effects last years, but they had to spin at high speed, about 400 revolutions per second, to keep the sound on a strict course.
The Singaporean team also claimed their technology could help submarines evade sonar detection, but planting a large number of spinning cylinders over the hull of the craft could prove an engineering nightmare.
“Our method is simpler. It does not require moving parts,” said one author of the Chinese paper, who asked not to be named.
However, he added that many problems remained to be solved before the technology can be used outside the laboratory on submarines or to reduce noise on aircraft.
The grooves in the rings were able to steer the sound waves in a set direction like cars travelling on an expressway. Photo: SCMP Pictures
Submarines now use used a rubber or plastic coating to absorb sound waves produced by sonar.
The anechoic tiles also reduce noises produced from inside the sub, but the technology is old, first used by the Germany navy in U-boats during the second world war.
New materials have been developed over the decades to increase the absorption rate, but a powerful and sensitive sonar system can still pick up traces of vessels.
China and US in silent fight for supremacy beneath waves of South China Sea

Yang Jing, associate professor of acoustics at Nanjing University, said the topological insulator could trigger a revolution in acoustic studies.
It has borrowed many ideas from quantum physics, which shed new light on sound problemsYANG JING, NANJING UNIVERSITY
“It has borrowed many ideas from quantum physics, which shed new light on sound problems,” she said.
But the technology was still in its infancy with major problems remaining, said Yang, who was not involved in the rings research.
For instance, a submarine has to remain invisible from sonar beamed from different directions and at different frequencies.
The rings, however, are now only able to deflect sound waves coming from certain angles and within certain frequencies.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby nirav » 07 Dec 2016 18:54

Vina,

The only one "harrumphing" post this tragic incident is you.

From writing off the betwa to a total loss, to calculating a 1.5 billion dollar loss, to talking ridiculous sh1t about whales to brandishing the Navy as "incompetent".

The incident is extremely tragic and worrisome, but this soap opera styled 'hai hai' by you doesnt serve any purpose.

Something went horribly wrong at the dock and I trust the navy to get to the root cause of it and ensure such a thing never happens again.Will heads roll ? Maybe and should, if gross negligence is found to be the cause for the accident.

Id like to exhort the moderators to request certain posters to find some other avenues of taking out their shrill non sense.
This aint no educated discussion. Its just 'hai hai' and counter 'hai hai'. :oops:


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