Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 07 Dec 2016 19:03

Well its a free world and we must be tolerant of dissenting opinions rather than try to shut people up who we do not agree with.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby shiv » 07 Dec 2016 19:15

vina wrote: Boats are dragged out of the water in literally THOUSANDS (think trawlers to random fishing vessels to naval vessels to the entire global commercial fleet of all stripes) EVERY DAY and put back into it. Why even in India, you drive around any civilised coastline in you will see trawlers etc being pulled out of the water and put back in every day in dozens.

Vinaji people do make mistakes. Some costly and some just embarrassing. We can all learn something from our mistakes and others mistakes if we pause for breath - just sayin

With reference to what you have posted above, you wrote yesterday: (6 Dec 2016)
vina wrote:
Ships in many ways are like whales structurally. They are supported by water all along the hull. They are not designed to rest on their sides on a few points like the ship is doing. Same thing that happens when a whale gets beached will happen. The whale's, rib cage and stuff gets crushed and it dies (though it is air breathing). Exact same thing happens to the ships structures


vina wrote:1. The hull is not watertight anymore.You flood the dock, the ship will not float, but rather sink like a stone.

<snip>

6. My submission is that the ship CANNOT be made upright. The thing remaining is to cut it up.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Dec 2016 19:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby AdityaM » 07 Dec 2016 19:18

Clarifies our crane capabilities:
No crane big enough to lift tilted warship

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby shiv » 07 Dec 2016 19:44

There are very few cranes in the world that can lift 3800 tons.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 19:57

shiv wrote:With reference to what you have posted above, you wrote yesterday: (6 Dec 2016)
vina wrote:
Ships in many ways are like whales structurally. They are supported by water all along the hull. They are not designed to rest on their sides on a few points like the ship is doing. Same thing that happens when a whale gets beached will happen. The whale's, rib cage and stuff gets crushed and it dies (though it is air breathing). Exact same thing happens to the ships structures


vina wrote:1. The hull is not watertight anymore.You flood the dock, the ship will not float, but rather sink like a stone.

<snip>

6. My submission is that the ship CANNOT be made upright. The thing remaining is to cut it up.


But none of them are mistakes. They are all perfectly correct .

1. The ship is INDEED like a whale. They are supported by buoyancy along the entire length and while the structure is also designed that way (you will tend to match the weight at that any particular point with the bouyancy). The ship's skin IS a shell (exactly like an egg shell) . If you support a ship by putting the blocks at the wrong point,it will simply punch through the shell! Check out Strength Of Ships and Cargo loading of bulk carriers two quick references to explain in lay man terms (the bulk carrier pdf explains it better.. if you dump a load of iron ore in the middle hold hold to the brim you will snap the ship into two).

2. Yes, if you flood the dock as is, the SHIP will SINK like a stone. It does not have enough buoyancy.

3. Yes, the ship CANNOT be made upright as it lies. There is NO clearance. It needs to be moved first atleast within the dock.
Last edited by vina on 07 Dec 2016 21:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 07 Dec 2016 19:58

can somekind of inflatable stuff be put under and raise the ship to the point where jacks can work ..just thinking car scale but then :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 07 Dec 2016 19:59

or wedge beams across and hydraulic jacks ??

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby kit » 07 Dec 2016 20:04

also if you know the ships design you would know where to apply the jacks i guess , other places will simply rupture the hull

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby chetak » 07 Dec 2016 20:19

vina wrote:All in all, it is a major f*ck up by the Navy on a very routine stuff. Docking/undocking hull maintenance is so ho-hum. It is just rank incompetence, and there will be heads rolling for this for sure.

The only saving grace in all this is, it is the Navy itself which dropped it's toy on a concrete floor and shattered it. If it had been a "civilian" (Think GSL, GRSE,MDL, or HSL, though now all of them are MOD owned) yard that did this, the uniformed worthies would have been baying for their blood.


uniformed worthies are indeed baying for blood.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby titash » 07 Dec 2016 20:34

Philip wrote:A Chinese development that could be tried out by our boffins.It could also explain why the Arihant's anechoic coating appears to have grooves in it.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies ... submarines
The Chinese acoustics research that might help shield submarines from sonar
Researchers working on a new system they hope will be more effective in hiding submarines from detection under the sea

PUBLISHED : Monday, 05 December, 2016,
Stephen Chen

Chinese scientists are developing a technique they hope will be able to make submarines invisible to sonar detection under the sea.
If successful, it would ultimately involve covering subs with special rings made of aluminium alloys.
The researchers at the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing and Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan in Hubei province experimented with rings about 14 cm across and with periodically etched grooves.
They found that sound waves were guided around the rings rather than bouncing back, which would allow them to be traced by sonar detectors.
Sound waves were guided around the rings rather than bouncing back.
Photo: SCMP Pictures
The grooves were able to steer the sound waves in a set direction like cars travelling on an expressway.
The researchers published details of their work earlier this month in the scientific journal Nature Communications.
‘Underwater Great Wall’: Chinese firm proposes building network of submarine detectors to boost nation’s defence

The scientists were originally using the technology - called a topological insulator - to control the movement of electrons to reduce heating in computer chips, but they later realised it also had applications for sound waves.
Several rings could work together to direct sound waves in almost any direction, potentially hiding a submarine from sonar in the future.
Other researchers have been working on the technology, but the Beijing and Huazhong researchers said their system was the simplest.
Our method is simpler. It does not require moving parts

CHINESE RESEARCHER INVOLVED IN RINGS PROJECT
A research team at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore constructed an array of cylinders creating similar effects last years, but they had to spin at high speed, about 400 revolutions per second, to keep the sound on a strict course.
The Singaporean team also claimed their technology could help submarines evade sonar detection, but planting a large number of spinning cylinders over the hull of the craft could prove an engineering nightmare.
“Our method is simpler. It does not require moving parts,” said one author of the Chinese paper, who asked not to be named.
However, he added that many problems remained to be solved before the technology can be used outside the laboratory on submarines or to reduce noise on aircraft.
The grooves in the rings were able to steer the sound waves in a set direction like cars travelling on an expressway. Photo: SCMP Pictures
Submarines now use used a rubber or plastic coating to absorb sound waves produced by sonar.
The anechoic tiles also reduce noises produced from inside the sub, but the technology is old, first used by the Germany navy in U-boats during the second world war.
New materials have been developed over the decades to increase the absorption rate, but a powerful and sensitive sonar system can still pick up traces of vessels.
China and US in silent fight for supremacy beneath waves of South China Sea

Yang Jing, associate professor of acoustics at Nanjing University, said the topological insulator could trigger a revolution in acoustic studies.
It has borrowed many ideas from quantum physics, which shed new light on sound problemsYANG JING, NANJING UNIVERSITY
“It has borrowed many ideas from quantum physics, which shed new light on sound problems,” she said.
But the technology was still in its infancy with major problems remaining, said Yang, who was not involved in the rings research.
For instance, a submarine has to remain invisible from sonar beamed from different directions and at different frequencies.
The rings, however, are now only able to deflect sound waves coming from certain angles and within certain frequencies.


Phillip sirjee, clearly China is moving light years ahead of us. At this rate looks like we have only 4 options:

1) Spend $$$ and match China's R&D and Armed Forces

2) Fight with what we have, and lose the naval battle to their undetectable subs & EMALS equipped carriers

3) Sign over Arunachal Pradesh and become a vassal state

4) Invest in nuclear depth charges...no uber TFTA sub can escape detection by a large passive sonar coupled with a nuclear depth charge. Even if you can't use active sonar due to the "sound cancellation technology", you simply blow up the entire grid. This is a very standard technique from the cold war.

Sounds like if we can't match the Chinese technologically, we play Pakistani and invest heavily into nuclear firepower.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2016 21:04

vina wrote:But none of them are mistakes. They are all perfectly correct .

1. The ship is INDEED like a whale. They are supported by buoyancy along the entire length and while the structure is also designed that way (you will tend to match the weight at that any particular point with the bouyancy). The ship's skin IS a shell (exactly like an egg shell) . If you support a ship by putting the blocks at the wrong point,it will simply punch through the shell! Check out Strength Of Ships and Cargo loading of bulk carriers two quick references to explain in lay man terms (the bulk carrier pdf explains it better.. if you dump a load of iron ore in the middle hold hold to the brim you will snap the ship into two).

2. Yes, if you flood the dock as is, the SHIP will SINK like a stone. It does not have enough buoyancy.

3. Yes, the ship CANNOT be made upright as it lies. There is NO clearance. It needs to be moved first atleast within the dock.

With all due respect, tsarkar has blown that whale theory of yours right outta the water and you have not responded to that post. So please stop using the whale analogy, unless you have evidence to prove otherwise.

Secondly, whatever you typed after 'Hint' in the above post is missing when posters read it. I came across it when I was replying to your above post. I am assuming the coding used, you are perhaps trying to keep it hidden.

Thirdly, please relax. You are gonna give yourself an aneurysm. I agree that negligence occurred. I myself said the same thing in the earlier page of this thread. But sh1t happens. While the optics are undeniably bad, the accident happened. The navy will learn from this accident and move on. More accidents will happen again.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Karthik S » 07 Dec 2016 21:16

titash wrote:
Philip wrote:A Chinese development that could be tried out by our boffins.It could also explain why the Arihant's anechoic coating appears to have grooves in it.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies ... submarines


Phillip sirjee, clearly China is moving light years ahead of us. At this rate looks like we have only 4 options:

1) Spend $$$ and match China's R&D and Armed Forces

2) Fight with what we have, and lose the naval battle to their undetectable subs & EMALS equipped carriers

3) Sign over Arunachal Pradesh and become a vassal state

4) Invest in nuclear depth charges...no uber TFTA sub can escape detection by a large passive sonar coupled with a nuclear depth charge. Even if you can't use active sonar due to the "sound cancellation technology", you simply blow up the entire grid. This is a very standard technique from the cold war.

Sounds like if we can't match the Chinese technologically, we play Pakistani and invest heavily into nuclear firepower.


I'd take option 1 any day. It's a long over due. Firstly need to increase defense budget to 3% of GDP. Bare in mind that unlike us, PLAN has other frontiers too from right from Japan, who have set aside their pacifist mentality and are into military buildup, to the SCS region.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 21:25

Rakesh wrote:With all due respect, tsarkar has blown that whale theory of yours right outta the water and you have not responded to that post. So please stop using the whale analogy, unless you have evidence to prove otherwise.

Do I need to respond ? Didn't you read the links I posted on ship structural design and the bulk carrier loading ? This is like asking to respond to "Why haven't you beaten your wife today?" (it is like someone saying that a plane has wheels and will land on a runway, and if it lands on water/sand it will sink and/or break apart and then you point to a seaplane that lands on the sea or a glider that does not have wheels and lands on sand and say you must be wrong).

'Hint' in the above post is missing when posters read it
.
Hint ? What hint ? There is none.

Thirdly, please relax. You are gonna give yourself an aneurysm.

I am just saying facts, I have no skin in the game, I am a disinterested observer and purely objective. A lot of people seem to be getting their undies in a twist and working themselves into a rage here on just hearing cold facts. .. Seems like cognitive dissonance.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2016 21:33

vina wrote:Do I need to respond ? Didn't you read the links I posted on ship structural design and the bulk carrier loading ? This is like asking to respond to "Why haven't you beaten your wife today?" (it is like someone saying that a plane has wheels and will land on a runway, and if it lands on water it will sink and/or break apart and then you point to a seaplane that lands on the sea or a glider that does not have wheels and lands on sea and say you must be wrong).

I am gonna leave it to tsarkarji to answer the above. I am not a expert on ships, but he is.

Hint ? What hint ? There is none.

Vina, I read what you typed. I don't know what you were thinking when you coded it to size 0, but it is not my prerogative to repeat what you typed but did not post. That is not fair to you. When I first replied to your post there was just one edit. After seeing my reply to your post, you re-edited it again and now that post of yours has 2 edits. But that is fine, if you want to live in denial about it...I am totally cool with it. Water under the bridge.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby shiv » 07 Dec 2016 21:50

vina wrote:1. The ship is INDEED like a whale. They are supported by buoyancy along the entire length and while the structure is also designed that way (you will tend to match the weight at that any particular point with the bouyancy). The ship's skin IS a shell (exactly like an egg shell) . If you support a ship by putting the blocks at the wrong point,it will simply punch through the shell! Check out Strength Of Ships and Cargo loading of bulk carriers two quick references to explain in lay man terms (the bulk carrier pdf explains it better.. if you dump a load of iron ore in the middle hold hold to the brim you will snap the ship into two).

Vinaji - posting facts does not cover up the fact that you posted two contradictory things in two separate posts to suit your argument of the moment

First you say that ships skin cannot bear weight. That is correct but when you said that it did not suit your argument to say what you said today:
Boats are dragged out of the water in literally THOUSANDS (think trawlers to random fishing vessels to naval vessels to the entire global commercial fleet of all stripes) EVERY DAY and put back into it. Why even in India, you drive around any civilised coastline in you will see trawlers etc being pulled out of the water and put back in every day in dozens.


That is ALSO correct.

The truth is somewhere in between and anyone with internet and Google can check the facts that you have posted.

Your dogmatic assertion that the Betwa is irreparably damaged contradicts your statement that ships are pulled out of the water all the time and they can all be put back in the water. BOTH YOUR STATEMENTS ARE TRUE ON THEIR OWN But you use both facts to suit your argument of the moment.

Basically both your posts are emphatic rhetoric to prove your point and you hate it when anyone says even something that you can construe as going even marginally against what you have said. And you will argue and argue and argue until everyone accepts that you are right. We all know that but some of us try not to get in your way and get a mouthful from you.

Let me say it up front. You are right Vinaji. You are ALWAYS right

Since I used to respect your knowledge I tended to remain silent - but somehow you seem to me to be even more anxious to get into disputes than you used to be.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 22:21

shiv wrote:Vinaji - posting facts does not cover up the fact that you posted two contradictory things in two separate posts to suit your argument of the moment


How ? And where ?

First you say that ships skin cannot bear weight. That is correct but when you said that it did not suit your argument to say what you said today:


Indeed the skin cannot. The Keel is where the stiffeners come together and in traditional boats (wood etc), the keel is the primary strength member (the thick wooden log at the bottom is the keel). The KEEL IS NOT THE SHELL/SKIN !

Boats are dragged out of the water in literally THOUSANDS (think trawlers to random fishing vessels to naval vessels to the entire global commercial fleet of all stripes) EVERY DAY and put back into it. Why even in India, you drive around any civilised coastline in you will see trawlers etc being pulled out of the water and put back in every day in dozens.


That is ALSO correct.


1. The Betwa is on it's SIDE, not on it's keel ! A ship that is sitting upright is resting on the KEEL, sure it can support itself (as long it doesn't tip over). The ship lying on the side like the Betwa and is supported by the shell . A ship lying on it's shell will have it crushed. When you dock a ship, you have to put blocks under the KEEL to support it. To prevent it from tipping over, you have to place blocks such that they are always at designed support points on the bottom towards the sides (typically where there would be stiffeners) so that the blocks don't puncture through the shell plating. You place block wrong, it will puncture the bottom shell plating . And then TSarkar comes and posts pictures of a ship resting on it's keel and does a same-same with the Betwa resting on it's side shell plating and I am expected to respond!

2. A trawler is dragged out of the water with its keel. Traditionally they put rollers (logs of wood in the olden days) and drag the ship over that to land . The sides are supported at the points where there are stiffeners to prevent the ship from tipping over.

Since I used to respect your knowledge I tended to remain silent - but somehow you seem to me to be even more anxious to get into disputes than you used to be.

No need to remain silent and you can always argue and dispute. I have no problem with. If there are gaps in understanding, I am always glad to do my best to fill in and also open to hear. As always it helps to keep an open mind on what the other guy is saying, why he even might be right!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby shiv » 07 Dec 2016 22:30

vina wrote:
1. The Betwa is on it's SIDE, not on it's keel ! A ship that is sitting upright is resting on the KEEL, sure it can support itself (as long it doesn't tip over).

Some bullshit from you . No ship can sit on its keel alone without support. Part of the weight is on the side of the ship as it lies tilted.

That aside your loud protestations cannot be argued with until we have more information. You have said one heck of a lot which is not worth arguing with because you are arguing without information - using what you fondly like to think is educated guesswork. You were wrong about the depth of water and you don;t even know the dynamics of the accident - but it would probably burn you up to admit it.

I will wait and see what happens to the ship because what you say on here does not make one whit of a difference to either the ship or me.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Dec 2016 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby uddu » 07 Dec 2016 22:32


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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2016 22:33

Can we have some levity? I think that is in order now....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgtmc7rp7rk

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2016 22:35

uddu wrote:

That is a Virginia Class boat. Jeez!!! :roll:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby vina » 07 Dec 2016 22:41

Rakesh wrote:Vina, I read what you typed. I don't know what you were thinking when you coded it to size 0, but it is not my prerogative to repeat what you typed but did not post. That is not fair to you. When I first replied to your post there was just one edit. After seeing my reply to your post, you re-edited it again and now that post of yours has 2 edits. But that is fine, if you want to live in denial about it...I am totally cool with it. Water under the bridge.

:lol: . Yes. Somethings are best left lying where they are . If you read it , keep it to yourself.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2016 23:09

Oh my goodness, I found a whale.... :D

Image

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2016 00:07

Timing is everything: Watching the clock may hold a clue to the INS Betwa accident
http://scroll.in/article/823499/timing-is-everything-watching-the-clock-may-hold-a-clue-to-the-ins-betwa-accident

What does lunch have to do with it? Although the dockyard is a military facility, its employees are civilians, and they have, or at least had at that time, a very obtrusive union. Naval officers were in charge of individual workshops and the yard as a whole, but officers came in for a while before being transferred out, while workers stayed in their secure jobs. The relation between officers and civilians was tense, because the officers had schedules to adhere to, but pushing workers hard led to flash strikes and tool-down agitations. To get ships ready in time, the navy would hire contract labourers, who toiled at dusk and through much of the night after the regular shift had left. It was depressing to witness the contrast between a lazy, entitled unionised workforce and the hard-working, underpaid casual labour. Some of the most atmospheric shots in our film, of sparks flying inside the dry dock from soldering irons and gas cutters used during the night-shift, did not represent dockyard employees at all. Since ours was a commissioned documentary, the commentary I wrote completely ignored the issue of casual labour.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2016 00:08

All right time to step in.

Singha, Posting pictures of building docks is interesting but irrelevant to the topic at hand and adds to the noise.
Please have consideration to those who follow on smart phones. Like me.

vina, You have made yourself clear. While we wait for the Navy to tell us what happened I urge you to not repeat.

Thanks,

ramana

Folks any open making unnecessary remarks* will get a ban till New Years.

Don't say you haven't been warned.

* Admins will decide.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2016 00:18

INS Betwa will be salvaged, battle ready by 2018: Indian Navy
http://www.asianage.com/india/all-india/071216/ins-betwa-to-be-battle-ready-by-2018-indian-navy.html

But despite the damage, the Indian Navy has vowed to salvage the warship and make it fighting-fit by 2018. “Come what may, INS Betwa will be salvaged. The Indian Navy is looking at first to make the flipped ship stand upright, then to assess the damage and to undertake salvage operations and finally to make it battle-ready by 2018. Every equipment that the ship had can be made indigenously,” said Indian Navy spokesperson Captain D.K. Sharma.


Two points to note;

1) This is now a matter of izzat for the Navy to get her battle ready again...even if the 2018 deadline is missed.
2) The wisdom of desi maal vs phoren screwdrivergiri is now there for everyone to see.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2016 00:22

Philip, Those grooves business to channel the sound away is non linear acoustics. Some thing like the rectangular speakers* etc. which work for only the audible frequencies. I note in last line they report mentions the same that grooves work for certain frequencies and may be aspect ratios.

IIT Madras library had a book on non-linear acoustics by an MIT professor in the days I used to attend.

Lots of non-linear diff eqns to be solved by numerical methods

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2016 00:24

I am glad IN is having their spokes person of Captain rank speak.

I hope the rest of the sources clam up for its now official spokesman who will talk.

The press no matter how sincere you are will spin an incompetence story.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Suresh S » 08 Dec 2016 00:27

No mercy on anyone that screwed up. jail time at the very least if anyone found guilty, no chalta hai attitude. Two people lost their life. Of course we wait for the enquiry.
Last edited by Suresh S on 08 Dec 2016 00:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2016 00:34

Rakesh wrote:INS Betwa will be salvaged, battle ready by 2018: Indian Navy
http://www.asianage.com/india/all-india/071216/ins-betwa-to-be-battle-ready-by-2018-indian-navy.html

But despite the damage, the Indian Navy has vowed to salvage the warship and make it fighting-fit by 2018. “Come what may, INS Betwa will be salvaged. The Indian Navy is looking at first to make the flipped ship stand upright, then to assess the damage and to undertake salvage operations and finally to make it battle-ready by 2018. Every equipment that the ship had can be made indigenously,” said Indian Navy spokesperson Captain D.K. Sharma.


Two points to note;

1) This is now a matter of izzat for the Navy to get her battle ready again...even if the 2018 deadline is missed.
2) The wisdom of desi maal vs phoren screwdrivergiri is now there for everyone to see.




Note other comments

While the naval spokesperson said that about 90 per cent of the ship’s equipment had already been de-stored as the INS Betwa was undergoing medium term refit which takes two years, speculation is rife that the sensitive electronics and avionics systems may have been damaged given the corrosive nature of the salty sea water.

The ship had arrived on the Mumbai naval dockyard for underwater repairs on October 28.

Admitting that the accident occurred to “lapses”, the spokesperson said the main gun — a Otto Melara 76mm gun — seemed to be undamaged.
The ship is equipped with several weapon systems including Israeli Barak and Russian Klub missiles

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby nirav » 08 Dec 2016 00:47

Its the loss of life thats the most depressing thing about this unfortunate accident.
Anything else can be fixed by throwing money at it. Some lessons are learned the very hard way, unfortunately.

Im sure the navy will find out the exact cause of the accident and ensure that adequate measures are taken across all its docks to avoid a repeat.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Aditya G » 08 Dec 2016 01:44

I am not sure if this graphic helps. All 3 incidents had different root causes. Vindhyagiri touched the sea floor after an accident involving a mid sea collision. Sindhurakshak blew up due to combustion of gasses and torps (IIRC).

My concern is that all of this should not translate into Navy being booted out of Mumbai - the city is not complete without the Navy berthed in it. Ship strength should be reduced though, like Killers being moved to INS Sardar Patel and Kolkata class to Karwar.

Austin wrote:https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/806053996230152192

Why we should worry. Three of most serious naval accidents in the past 5 yrs have been in the naval dockyard, Mumbai. 1 sq km area.


Image

ramana
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2016 02:55

Aditya_G, I think India Toady has an agenda. They want the navy out of Mumbai for their RE interests.

They could also raise a scare on Chakra and Arihant for this.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Singha » 08 Dec 2016 04:09

If we compare the spacious berths available in proper naval bases to the side by side cramped parking in mumbai its pointless to continue mumbai as a major naval base..we have outgrown it. Maybe a squadron of missile corvettes but thats it. Mazgaon will remain due to skilled worker and vendor base

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2016 06:44

Singha is bang on. Use MDL to build ships and subs, but get the Navy out of there. Move it all to Karwar which as per the article below is the largest naval base east of the Suez Canal.

Now, India has the Largest Naval Base East of the Suez Canal
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/now-on-indias-west-coast-the-largest-naval-base-east-of-the-suez-canal-1215952

KARWAR: Away from public glare and pomp, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Wednesday commissioned INS Vajrakosh, a naval station near Karwar in Karnataka. Together with INS Kadamba, 20 km, away, it is now the world's largest naval base east of the Suez Canal. Spread out over 1000 acres, the new naval base would be the home base for a bulk of the Indian Navy's strength on the western coast.

Indian Naval Station Vajrakosh - which loosely translates to 'Thunder Chest' - was constructed as the second phase of Project Seabird, which was initiated by the Centre in 1985. INS Kadamba had been commissioned earlier. INS Vajrakosh alone is spread out over 600 acres.

At the new naval base, The Indian Navy will be positioning two aircraft carriers - INS Vikramaditya and the indigenously built INS Vikrant - over 20 submarines in underground pens and 47 warships. Besides this, it will also have a Naval air station that will base the Boeing P-8i, an advanced maritime surveillance aircraft that is known as 'Poseidon'. The facility will also feature a helicopter base.

As of now, the INS Vikramaditya and over 30 ships are being docked at the Karwar naval base. "The underground pens for the submarines will give additional stealth to the fleet. Unlike Bombay, where submarines are docked in the open and easily spotted by satellites, docking submarines inside pens will make invisible to prying eyes," a senior Naval officer said.

"Apart from the Naval Air Station, INS Vajrakosh will be the biggest missiles, ammunition and spares dump on the Western Sea Board. It will be base that will equip all warships and airplanes," a senior Naval officer who was at the commissioning ceremony told NDTV.

The two installations will together have a 6,500 ton ship lift. "We now have the capability to move all our major warships - except the aircraft carriers - to the dry docks for repairs," the officers said. It will also have a state of the art naval dock yard.

The Karwar base will cost the Indian exchequer Rs. 25000 crore. When it had been conceived in 1985, the criteria had been to relocate the fleet away from the reach of Pakistani fighters. In the age of mid-air re-fullers, that is no longer the case. Enemy fighters can very well reach the new base. Nonetheless, the Karwar Base - an exclusive Naval harbour - will be prove to be major advantage for the Navy. The Bombay, Cochin Harbours - the two major Naval stations in the Western Sea Board - are over-crowded with commercial traffic. "It often takes hours to move in and out of these harbours. From Karwar, we deploy simultaneously in a very short time," a senior official said.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2016 06:54

Firms come up to salvage INS Betwa
http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-news/firms-come-up-to-salvage-ins-betwa/story-ZTJvvuaMMOgk5WnrDhsBzL.html

Sources in the Navy said that there seemed to be a procedural error which caused the ship to slip. To undock the ship, water is allowed into the dry dock, making the front end of the ship float up first. The rear end comes later. But if the rear floats first, the possibility of the ship undocking in an undesirable fashion may rise.

More than 100 personnel, including officers and sailors, were inside the vessel when it undocked. Soon after the incident, employees that included technical experts of the dockyard were moved towards it. The technical team were constantly in touch with people inside the vessel to get their locations, said a Navy official who did not wish to be named. “We cut the outer portion of the ship to get inside. We cut four or five more areas after we located where the people were trapped and moved them to safety within a few hours.”

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Vivek K » 08 Dec 2016 08:05

The IN has developed capability in India and this visionary act must be applauded. This incident can be fixed with local parts and components thereby boosting local economy and adding to local skills. Unlike importing Talwars where you line the pockets of foreign yards and send the money overeas.

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby tushar_m » 08 Dec 2016 08:34

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 12h12 hours ago Kolkata, India
Aha! The Minister of State for Defence in a written reply to a Parliamentary question has stated that the Indian Navy has 16 submarines.

:?: :?: :?:

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Dec 2016 09:01

9 kilos + four 209s = 13. Add Arihant and Chakra makes it 15. So which is the 16th boat? Either the Sindhurakshak has not been stricken from IN records or the second Arihant Class boat has also joined the IN. The latter could be true because the Arihant was commissioned months back and only recently a news article came up stating that it had already joined service.

16 boats for a vast sea that we need to monitor and track. Bloody pathetic!

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby abhik » 08 Dec 2016 09:21

^^^
INS Kalvari?

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Postby yensoy » 08 Dec 2016 09:49

Singha wrote:If we compare the spacious berths available in proper naval bases to the side by side cramped parking in mumbai its pointless to continue mumbai as a major naval base..we have outgrown it. Maybe a squadron of missile corvettes but thats it. Mazgaon will remain due to skilled worker and vendor base


I said this a few pages ago 8) https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7019&start=3960#p2084555


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