Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Dec 2016 03:55

Rishi Verma wrote:
Sanju wrote:Rishi Verma, TSarkar is ex-IN.
I know. I am not ex but current bhartiya and I just carry a mirror to show people the reality of Bharat.

Peer into it sometimes. It will help.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 09 Dec 2016 06:45

Rishi Verma wrote:Root cause of repeated accidents at MDL will eventually point to shoddy work, shoddy training, shoddy following of procedures, in short, shoddy quality of life of salaried mumbaikars.

Er, that's an assumption the size of the Vikramaditya. This sounds like the typical "east or west, west is the bhest" type rona-dhona. First of all, this incident did NOT happen at MDL, but at the naval dockyard. Why is this important - because your arguments lose whatever little credibility they have if you don't even know where it happened! Second, RCA is all fine, provided one actually lists it down for ALL accidents. Just saying desi accidents are due to shoddy <fill in your choice> and bideshi ones are due to some TFTA reasons does not cut it. At least tsarkar-ji posted some data, can you try to respond with counter points based on data?

Rishi Verma wrote:Without doubt it's indeed a face-palm moment for Indian Navy, MDL, and in general we as society of reckless drivers, queue breakers, paan spitters, pot bellied workers with very little technical training, or respect for procedures, rules or pride in work let alone believing in excellence in daily aspect of life.

Thankfully, our services including the Navy don't think like you. Otherwise, our mil bases will be empty and no one interested in serving for the country. The Navy definitely thinks otherwise, considering their efforts at being a builders' Navy.

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Dec 2016 06:57

tsarkar wrote:You're horribly wrong. You initially said ships are like whales, but when pointed out that amphibious ships beach and un-beach all the time, you are trying to hide behind a fig leaf that skin of ships are like egg shells.

Woww.. Wooow.. Lets deconstruct this, and take it one at a time, and then let put them back together in steps. After all, you cant learn an entire course in one day or put everything in one LOONG boring write up.

So lets start here.

Structurally the following 3 are all true..

1. A Human Being, the only animal that walks upright, is like a pillar
2. A 4 legged animal (horse, donkey, dog..) is like a Truck (think of the case when the truck is parked for ease, though it wont matter even if the wheels are roatating)
3. A Ship is like a Whale (the the body is not supported by the skeleton holding it up against gravity, but by bouyancy, in fact, that "liberation" of the skeleton from its holding up weight ~~part~~ function, is what allowed whales to evolve into the leviathans that they are, same with ships.. When I.K Brunel built ships with ~~steel~~ iron, the key limiting factor that existed , the stiffness to weight ratio of wood was overcome, and ships could grow practically limitlessly and we are no where close to that limit).
4. An airplane wing , ie. an airfoil , is like a long cylinder rotating in the airflow (okay this is not a structural case, but just thought I will throw it in all the same, but that is indeed how wings work and generate lift)

And regarding the skin, refer Admiral Hiranandani's book Transition to Guardianship: The Indian Navy 1991–2000 Chapter 17 Paragraph Hull Structure & Layouts.

See the trouble with throwing names like this and appealing to "Admiral Hiranandani" is disregarding the possibility that the other guy might actually have greater background, experience and knowledge than the good Admiral in these particular matters (after all, Admiral was a Deck Officer otherwise he couldnt have become Chief) . Coming to the point is there even a possibility , nay a plausibility (however remote) that I might actually know better than the Admiral on these limited points (not on overall naval warfare and stuff etc).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 07:05

however I feel while whales tend to collapse under their vast weight on land, ships have a structure strong enough to stand up on land forever without distorting or collapsing. sure the keel will feel more weight but as seen in Alang they can stand up and fight easily when empty.

http://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... -alang.jpg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 07:07

btw I see atleast 3 blue checked lungis in the pic above ? have BDs taken over the labour in this industry?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Dec 2016 07:15

and here comes the whale theory again....

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Dec 2016 07:22

Er, that's an assumption the size of the Vikramaditya. This sounds like the typical "east or west, west is the bhest" type rona-dhona. First of all, this incident did NOT happen at MDL, but at the naval dockyard. Why is this important - because your arguments lose whatever little credibility they have if you don't even know where it happened! Second, RCA is all fine, provided one actually lists it down for ALL accidents. Just saying desi accidents are due to shoddy <fill in your choice> and bideshi ones are due to some TFTA reasons does not cut it. At least tsarkar-ji posted some data, can you try to respond with counter points based on data?

Sir, you might be right but 4 different vessels sinking/written off ( Betwa/INS Vindhyagiri/TRV-72/INS Sindhurakshak)within just 4 years in peacetime is really pushing the limits too far and questions must be asked( how much ever we show examples of other navies even though most examples are 20 years old and spread apart by decades)

Loosing 23 men and 20 odd injured in relatively short timeframes over so many incidents will invite scorn and questions in any organisation, leave alone the IN.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 07:25

does not have enough mesh of structural ribs befitting its 100ton weight - does not need to as it never grounds itself deliberately

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 07:28

even when we take what is one of the strongest creatures pound for pound on mother earth - the killer whales, the bone structure is the same. not enough to get by one land - at sea it is 10t of solid muscle, 40 knot top speed and easily swims 100km a day when feeding and hunting in a group

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 07:31

they are smart enough to ground themselves a few moments to catch terrified seals and then roll and heave their way back to deeper water. this must be a learnt behaviour on some feeding grounds - its just a very large dolphin so highly smart

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 07:36

this upstanding citizen here is the climbing perch...can spend a long time out of water and move around

needless to say a very dense ship like rib structure all the way to tail

now let me deploy my "kala kutta" anti-artillery rockets and hide from inbound strikes by other admins

*darts back into deep cover*

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 09 Dec 2016 07:58

Nice fish anatomy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Dec 2016 08:21

See what you started vina? You had to bring up those damn whales again and now you got Singha hooked on it

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Dec 2016 08:45

Singha wrote:this upstanding citizen here is the climbing perch...can spend a long time out of water and move around

I thought you were pulling a fast one and then I came across this...now that shit is freaky!!!

https://youtu.be/VxRIdOdar94

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 09 Dec 2016 08:48

sum wrote:
Er, that's an assumption the size of the Vikramaditya. This sounds like the typical "east or west, west is the bhest" type rona-dhona. First of all, this incident did NOT happen at MDL, but at the naval dockyard. Why is this important - because your arguments lose whatever little credibility they have if you don't even know where it happened! Second, RCA is all fine, provided one actually lists it down for ALL accidents. Just saying desi accidents are due to shoddy <fill in your choice> and bideshi ones are due to some TFTA reasons does not cut it. At least tsarkar-ji posted some data, can you try to respond with counter points based on data?
Sir, you might be right but 4 different vessels sinking/written off ( Betwa/INS Vindhyagiri/TRV-72/INS Sindhurakshak)within just 4 years in peacetime is really pushing the limits too far and questions must be asked( how much ever we show examples of other navies even though most examples are 20 years old and spread apart by decades)

Loosing 23 men and 20 odd injured in relatively short timeframes over so many incidents will invite scorn and questions in any organisation, leave alone the IN.

No issues with asking questions. I didn't say anything to that effect in my post. My point was Rishi-ji's post sounded like generic desi-bashing one comes across outside BRF without attempting to look deeper. Just saying "we are like this onlee" is not helpful either.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 09 Dec 2016 09:48

Rakesh wrote:See what you started vina? You had to bring up those damn whales again and now you got Singha hooked on it

Whales are not fish, so there is no way for singha sahab to get hooked.

Ntw, just saw a cool vid on orcas....very, very smart can actually hunt great whites....

vina · Post by **vina** » 09 Dec 2016 09:54

Singha wrote:however I feel ..

Hang on. We are in page 1 chapter 1. There are 10 more chapters to go. You are trying to answer the final term paper without the remaining chapters!

Hint:

1. As a thought experiment, What if all of a sudden the whale magically grew back the limbs ( of proportionately sufficient size) it lost during evolution , but with the vertebral column remaining the same as it is today. Will it walk like dog /animal from which it evolved from, or will the backbone break from the weight of the body ? In other words, Is the backbone size, same for an animal of same size optimised for living in a nautical world where weight is supported by buoyancy (say a 10 ton Killer Whale) , as that for an animal of similar weight living on land (say an Elephant of 10 tons) ?

2. As a second thought experiment, think of an animal/thing, that has a backbone like the whale, rib cages like the whale, lives wholly in water, (weight supported by buoyancy and not skeleton), but swims with its back (vertebra/backbone) towards the ocean floor and it's belly to the sky, and when it comes close to land, it its body magically opens out and upto 95% of it's own weight is taken out in extreme cases, but in our case we take upto 30% of it's body weight taken out.. (mm.. I think that creature is called a Ship!) . Now you take that creature and drop it from a height of approx 6m and drop it on a bunch of jagged rocks (like the blocks in the dry dock). What will happen to that creature ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2016 11:22

this climbing perch is common in assam rivers and lakes and is called "Koi" . very tasty fish but incredibly sharp and hard bones all over esp the neck area. takes a pro-league native assamese/bengali to skin this cat. we used to have it fried or in curries with just the stomach cleaned out. its eggs are very fine and very tasty.
its very expensive due to scarcity now and hard to find the big ones in market. I have caught a few in village pods on rods. but it eats only worms and not flour mix unlike rohu or carps. hard to catch. so people catch with nets only.

driven by some instinct they migrate between water bodies .... once my father and his bros saw a line of them going from a smaller lake to a bigger one (their house was on a shorline)...they used rubber gumboots as a container to catch and carry home for the frying pan

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 09 Dec 2016 11:23

Singha wrote:btw I see atleast 3 blue checked lungis in the pic above ? have BDs taken over the labour in this industry?

A little bit of investigation. The photo is mirrored, ship on the left has registration 7716672 which has the following history:

Leona I (ex-Leonis, ex-Axion I, ex-River, ex-River Adada). IMO 7716672. General cargo. 175 m in length, 7,523 t. Panamean flag. Classification society Russian Maritime Register of Shipping. Built in 1979 in Split (Croatia, ex-Yugoslavia) by Brodosplit. Detained in 2003 in Bremen (Germany), in 2006 in Cochin and Vishakhapatnam (India), in 2007 in Shangai (China) and in 2008 in Kunsan (South Korea). Sold and towed for demolition to Bangladesh.
http://www.robindesbois.org/wp-content/ ... king17.pdf

So, the blue checks are in their own land, no worries

. Photo isn't from Alang.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 09 Dec 2016 11:29

yensoy wrote:
Singha wrote:btw I see atleast 3 blue checked lungis in the pic above ? have BDs taken over the labour in this industry?
A little bit of investigation. The photo is mirrored, ship on the left has registration 7716672 which has the following history:

Leona I (ex-Leonis, ex-Axion I, ex-River, ex-River Adada). IMO 7716672. General cargo. 175 m in length, 7,523 t. Panamean flag. Classification society Russian Maritime Register of Shipping. Built in 1979 in Split (Croatia, ex-Yugoslavia) by Brodosplit. Detained in 2003 in Bremen (Germany), in 2006 in Cochin and Vishakhapatnam (India), in 2007 in Shangai (China) and in 2008 in Kunsan (South Korea). Sold and towed for demolition to Bangladesh.
http://www.robindesbois.org/wp-content/ ... king17.pdf

So, the blue checks are in their own land, no worries . Photo isn't from Alang.

Hat tip on a great forensic job.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Dec 2016 14:44

3 reports on the issue.

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... thin-navy/

Keeling Over: INS Betwa accident highlights, once again, operational rot within navy
December 8, 2016,

The recent keeling over of INS Betwa – a 3,850-tonne Brahmaputra-class guided missile frigate – at the naval dockyard in Mumbai, that has resulted in the death of two sailors and injured another 22, is astounding. The ship was undergoing a maintenance refit at the dockyard when, reportedly, it slipped from its dock blocks. Given the scale and sophistication of the operation, the mishap could not have occurred without gross human error.
There are strict procedures and safety guidelines that are to be followed during maintenance operations on naval ships. For a vessel of the size of INS Betwa to topple over is unheard of – this is the first such incident that the Indian navy has witnessed. There would have had to be a series of lapses for the accident to occur. This is worrying because it indicates that little has changed since the spate of 11 naval accidents over 2013-14 that forced then naval chief Admiral DK Joshi to resign.
While a board of inquiry is being constituted to probe the INS Betwa mishap and foreign experts have been called to salvage the ship, there’s no denying that the navy is plagued by a serious operational rot. For a country that’s aspiring to have a blue-water naval force, this state of affairs is simply unacceptable. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar needs to sit up and take note of what is happening on his watch. Such operational lapses neither square with the government’s Make in India push that is supposed to have a strong defence component, nor do they bolster the country’s strategic needs. If India is to play the role of a maritime power and protect its interests in increasingly crowded sea-lanes, it needs to have a navy that maintains a minimum of standards. The INS Betwa accident and other mishaps show much work remains to be done in this direction.

Naval ship may lie on its side for 6 months, Rs 200cr needed to lift it

V Narayan | TNN | Dec 8, 2016, 07.37 AM IST

MUMBAI: Salvage experts from foreign firms are in the city to assess the extent of damage the INS Betwa incurred after it toppled during undocking on Monday. Salvaging the ship may cost around Rs 200 crore and it will be at least six months before the operations actually start.
When explosions sank the submarine INS Sindhurakshak on August 14, 2013, the government spent Rs 240 crore on the salvage operations that lasted a year-anda-half, while it took six months and over Rs 200 crore to salvage INS Vindhyagiri that sunk after colliding with a merchant ship in 2011.
Navy spokesperson in Mumbai, commander Rahul Sinha, said some companies have shown interest in carrying out salvage operations and their proposals are being studied. Meanwhile naval divers are carrying out operations to ascertain the position of the dock blocks.
Initially, an assessment report of the ship will be prepared by the salvers."The salvers assessing the warship may take at least two to three weeks to prepare the report on the cause and amount of damages she incurred after toppling at dry dock. Based on the report the Navy will prepare a tender that will take at least another three months. Later, bids will be invited," said a Navy officer.

There are five globally acknowledged salvage firms and experts from any of these will be assigned the operation after they assess the warship. "The salver company will get the contract after they win the bid," said the officer. Right now, the dry dock can't be flooded as it will further damage the warship which is lying on one side. "The salvers will check the compartments and also the machineries if any has got damaged due to impact. The ships are built to sustain the impact while sailing. But flooding will further make it difficult if water ingress into the compartment. Right now water is still present and water may have ingress in some of the compartment. It is a difficult task to clear the sea water," said the officer.
Warship INS Betwa was in the process of undocking in the Naval Dockyard (Mumbai) when she slipped from her dock blocks and listed (tilted) to her port side.Immediate action was taken to get all personnel to safety.However, two sailors--NK Rai and Ashutosh Pandey--died in the mishap. Admiral Sunil Lanba, Chief of Naval Staff, arrived in Mumbai late on December 5 to assess the situation.
Stay updated on the go with Times of India News App. Click here to download it for your device.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/frigate- ... 43520.html

Frigate INS Betwa's collapse in a dry dock is beyond comprehension
Dec 7, 2016
By Bikram Vohra
Accidents happen. But ships, especially major naval vessels do not fall on their sides like beached whales.
Yachts collapse. Little fishing boats might keel over. A canoe can overturn. Ride the rapids and your rubber dinghy might flip.
But to have a 126-metre frigate topple over in dry docks is unbelievable. It is not only unbelievable, it is incomprehensible.
That two sailors were killed makes it manslaughter by neglect.
The frigate INS Betwa lies on its side. PTIThe frigate INS Betwa lies on its side. PTI
Does anyone know what the size and weight of a warship of this genre is? For one, it is over 4,000 tonnes when loaded and has a crew of 450 people officers and men and is literally a floating township with aircrew for choppers. The INS Betwa is a Brahmaputra class guided missile frigate.
That is no little ketch.
Now she lies on her side, like a crumpled can in the naval dockyard in Mumbai.
They say she slipped from her dock blocks. Technically, that cannot happen unless there was a change in the centre of gravity, the blocks were loose or malfunctioning or what should be a normal operation was so botched up that a lot of somebodies did not do the calculations and were cavalier about it.
We have lost ships before. The INS Khukri went down in 1971, ostensibly victim to an aided attack from Pakistan. We have lost several ships including the INS Andaman because she was not seaworthy. In 2014, there were a spate of incidents when there were 11 separate incidents resulting in the loss of 22 lives, forcing the then naval chief Admiral DK Joshi to do the most honourable thing and resign by taking responsibility like a good sailor should. It set a precedent in grasping the nettle in the truest traditions of the navy.
Clearly, it was a sacrifice in vain. For such an accident to occur, short of some bizarre genie coming out of a bottle and casting an evil spell there is just no reasonable explanation for such an unprecedented collapse of a vessel this size in a dry dock. While the eggheads can do their maths and figure out exactly what caused the ship to topple over, there has to be a thorough investigation of the strength and maintenance of the dock itself and whether procedures were followed.
Elements like docking position, docking drafts, docking displacements, docking conditions and shipyard docking plans are all integral to such an undertaking. All these should be really routine.
Most accidents that occur in dry docks are slips and falls because of worker error, fires and loading accidents or equipment malfunction.
But to have a whole ship that size fall off is almost unheard of in these hi-tech times.
The most generous explanation that can be given is: This is embarrassing, it simply does not happen.
Even freak accidents would not account for such an occurrence.
Clearly, this was not a singular error. Just like with most aircraft accidents that defy the norm, the INS Betwa fell victim to a series of slip-ups and goof-ups, not just one. It is always one thing that leads to the next and then the domino principle kicks in and you have a frigate on its side with no way of lifting her up.
And worse, two deaths as a result of incredible negligence.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Dec 2016 19:42

vina wrote:
Singha wrote:however I feel ..
Hang on. We are in page 1 chapter 1. There are 10 more chapters to go. You are trying to answer the final term paper without the remaining chapters!

Hint:
1. As a thought experiment, What if all of a sudden the whale magically grew back the limbs ( of proportionately sufficient size) it lost during evolution , but with the vertebral column remaining the same as it is today. Will it walk like dog /animal from which it evolved from, or will the backbone break from the weight of the body ? In other words, Is the backbone size, same for an animal of same size optimised for living in a nautical world where weight is supported by buoyancy (say a 10 ton Killer Whale) , as that for an animal of similar weight living on land (say an Elephant of 10 tons) ?

2. As a second thought experiment, think of an animal/thing, that has a backbone like the whale, rib cages like the whale, lives wholly in water, (weight supported by buoyancy and not skeleton), but swims with its back (vertebra/backbone) towards the ocean floor and it's belly to the sky, and when it comes close to land, it its body magically opens out and upto 95% of it's own weight is taken out in extreme cases, but in our case we take upto 30% of it's body weight taken out.. (mm.. I think that creature is called a Ship!) . Now you take that creature and drop it from a height of approx 6m and drop it on a bunch of jagged rocks (like the blocks in the dry dock). What will happen to that creature ?

Please start a fisheries thread.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 09 Dec 2016 22:13

When you pay peanuts you get monkeys. You treat the services as crap and the quality of people choosing to make it a career will go down. All the fancy gear in the world won't change that. When the next '62 happens people will wake up and act like it's a revelation. It'll be too late then though.

Aarvee · Post by **Aarvee** » 10 Dec 2016 03:43

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politi ... t7egj.html

More details regarding the Scorpene submarine info leak.

Quote from the article:

"Former Indian Navy officer and now defence scholar with the Observer Research Foundation, Abhijit Singh, said Indian officials have concluded the material isn't as incendiary as they first thought and relations between India and France were robust enough to get past the embarrassing episode. But he said it could help kill off New Delhi's plans to buy three more Scorpenes at a cost of about $2 billion."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Dec 2016 06:49

^^ so the stealers achieved a big goal there - denying us a readymade line for a few more subs and forcing us back into reset mode.....5 years easily added to time line + more expenses to setup a entirely new line of tech and training people.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2016 07:53

Philip wrote: http://www.firstpost.com/india/frigate- ... 43520.html
But to have a 126-metre frigate topple over in dry docks is unbelievable. It is not only unbelievable, it is incomprehensible.

This is rhetoric, but it also indicates denial.

I cannot understand what is unbelievable here. The ship fell on its side and still lies on its side. If someone does not believe it - it is his problem. Incomprehensible means "I cannot understand it". Welcome to the club. No one can understand it. But it has happened. No point beating one's breast and howling. Need to move forward.

A few years ago a spare tyre hanging off the side of a large vehicle came off, rolled across a road and killed someone on the other side of the road. The reactions "unbelievable" and "Incomprehensible" are fine as "first reactions" but are useless rhetoric beyond that. The pedestrian was as dead as dead can be, Incredulity and incomprehension did not bring him back

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Dec 2016 20:02

I absolutely hate all these holier than thou editorials and opinion pieces which spring-up after any mishap in Services. From Nagrota attack to the accident with respect to INS Betwa. Most of them are nothing more than casual-gossip which mango-Indians have around tea-stall or Paanwala after a cricket match gone wrong.

One only has to compare these idiotic sermons and what the likes of Lt General Hasnain write. These idiotic articles have no depth, no analysis but that does not prevent them from making grand standing comments and statements.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Dec 2016 20:58

There is a saying in Punjabi - "Atta goondti, hilti kyoon"? Translated - When preparing dough why do you move? To explain - it is like stating an oxymoron. One has to move a lot while preparing dough by hand. This expands to - only those that do ANY work make mistakes. So the IN did the right thing by working with local shipyards. Mistakes happen when one does anything.

This whining is only designed to damage local yards.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2016 23:00

Vina no more whale stories.
Singha no more fish pictures.
All I don't want jumping to conclusions here.
I want only factual news reports with links.
Thanks, ramana

Due warnings, bans will be issued a needed.
Thanks again.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 11 Dec 2016 04:42

Aditya G wrote:Thanks Rakesh.
-----
Admiral Hiranandini in his books lamented about the lack of a dedicated salvage capability within IN. This was in relation to the INS Andaman episode, but unfortunately keeps coming up.

If not the Navy, at least Coast Guard should form and hone a salvage organisation. They could in turn subcontract to international specialists as and when required.

Aditya G Ji :

Are you referring to the Sinking of the Naval Floating Dock? If so, then I think she was towed to Colombo Dockyard and repaired.
Cheers

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 11 Dec 2016 15:58

Yup, I think I mixed up couple of things. Admiral Hiranandani's comments were in relation to another vessel which had hit a sandbar (?) ... sorry cant recall the name.

INS Andaman was a Petya class submarine chaser of the Navy. She was lost at sea in storm conditions, with blame on poor material state.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Dec 2016 18:15

Another Il-38SD for the Indian Navy last overhaul and modernization

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/87349/

Upgraded anti-IL-38SD Indian Navy Aviation (Indian number IN303) passed the overhaul on the basis of "EMZ VM name Myasishcheva "in Zhukovsky (now part of the JSC" Ilyushin ", which acts as the main executor of the contract. Repairs lasted less than a year. The aircraft arrived at the repair Zhukovsky in November 2015.

This is the second Indian renovated Il-38SD five machines of this type, belonging to the Indian Navy aircraft and subject to major overhaul under the agreement signed by Russia in 2012.

ASW Il-38SD features enhanced combat capabilities, equipping a new search-and-sighting system "Sea Serpent» (Sea Dragon) development holding company "Leninist". This complex allows for the X-35 missiles and torpedoes APR-3-E. We also installed the fuselage pylons for rockets.
In addition to solving purely anti-submarine tasks, he is able to perform tasks as maritime patrol, electronic reconnaissance aircraft, search and rescue, and even attack aircraft - against surface targets.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Dec 2016 12:04

Ru has more IL-38s mothballed.The IN could do with a few more upgraded to this std. to augment L:RMP assets Turboprops are better for "low and slow" ops unlike the P-8! jets.12+ P-8Is and 8-12 IL_38s would be a superb combo. Add to that the reach and range of the 8 TU-142 Bears,we will be able to conduct patrols of the Indo-China Sea from the mainland and even better from the A&N islands.

Here's an interessting report on the deck coatings of the new QE CVs,how they solved the problem engine heat on deck from the new F-35s Should the IN at some future time operate STOVL carrier strike aircraft or birds with TVC engines, we would face a similar problem, too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/st ... -carriers/

‘Bringing the technology from the factory to the ship has been demanding’
Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers
HMS Queen Elizabeth
New ideas: innovative thermal “paint” will protect the HMS Queen Elizabeth's deck
5 DECEMBER 2016 • 4:00PM
Helena Pozniak
Protecting the flight decks of new aircraft carriers required an innovative solution – and both the ‘paint’ and the process proved tough.

When the Navy/RAF’s new stealth fighters enter service in 2018, they will launch from the Navy’s two new massive aircraft carriers to provide what the Government calls a “formidable fighting force”.

Currently the most advanced jets in existence, the F-35B Lightning II fighters will take off from a short ramp and land vertically on the decks of the warships. But the heat and force of the exhaust gases from the jets are so extreme, this demands innovative technology to protect the decks of the aircraft carriers: the traditional coatings aren’t tough enough.

Engineers have devised an innovative thermal “paint” to withstand the extreme high temperatures from the supersonic jets. It’s a metallic compound of aluminium and titanium which is melted and sprayed on to parts of the four-acre deck of the carrier. So resilient is the thermal coating, it can withstand temperatures of up to a staggering 1,500C.

Engineers have devised an innovative thermal “paint” to withstand the extreme high temperatures from the supersonic jets
But applying it hasn’t been easy, says David Thomson, flight deck and coating manager at the Aircraft Carrier Alliance, which is responsible for building the carriers. The Scottish weather hasn’t always behaved.

He’s been working at Rosyth Dockyard where HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales are being built by the Alliance, which includes BAE Systems. His team needs to keep temperatures stable and the air dry.

“It is a challenge,” admits Mr Thomson. “We’ve had to maintain tight environmental controls: we’re working on open decks and it rains a lot in Scotland”

The team has been working in an enclosure which is kept at 22C and at a humidity below 60 per cent in all weathers. “We’ve made 10 air changes an hour through extraction, to make sure the air is kept clean,” explains Mr Thomson. “We spray on the coating but it generates aluminium dust which is flammable, so it needs to be removed.”

It’s a laborious process and has taken a year to complete
Specialist machinery has been developed in order to apply the coating. Robots fire powdered metal through a jet of plasma at temperatures of around 10,000C. The molten droplets then flatten and solidify, creating a tough coating.

A first application ensures the “paint” sticks to the steel deck, a second coat is for strength, and the third application has added sand to provide non-slip friction, both for the jets and crew.

It’s a laborious process and has taken a year to complete. This type of durable coating has been used in the oil industry to protect rigs from corrosion from salt water, but this is the first time it has been used on the deck of warships.

According to the engineers it will protect decks throughout the carriers’ 50-year lives. Rather than coat the complete deck, the team has protected three landing spots. “The high standards of the aviation sector have required lots of independent testing,” says Mr Thomson. “Bringing the technology from the factory to the ship has been demanding.”

The first of the two warships, HMS Queen Elizabeth, will undergo sea trials next year and then flight trials in 2018, before its sister ship, HMS Prince of Wales, goes through the procedure. The new fighter jets, meanwhile, employ stealth technology to avoid radar detection, and the RAF plans to have 24 aircraft available on the two new carriers by 2023.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 12 Dec 2016 17:28

Philip wrote:Ru has more IL-38s mothballed.The IN could do with a few more upgraded to this std. to augment L:RMP assets Turboprops are better for "low and slow" ops unlike the P-8! jets.12+ P-8Is and 8-12 IL_38s would be a superb combo. Add to that the reach and range of the 8 TU-142 Bears,we will be able to conduct patrols of the Indo-China Sea from the mainland and even better from the A&N islands.

Here's an interessting report on the deck coatings of the new QE CVs,how they solved the problem engine heat on deck from the new F-35s Should the IN at some future time operate STOVL carrier strike aircraft or birds with TVC engines, we would face a similar problem, too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/st ... -carriers/
‘Bringing the technology from the factory to the ship has been demanding’
Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth

Philip Ji :
I have learnt a lot about War Ship from your insightful Posts. As such please forgive me for my "naive" Question.

Having seen a number of photographs of Huge Cruise Liners being built in a Covered Area would it not be possible for such Aircraft Carriers to be built in similarly covered area(s)?

Many thanks in advance. Cheers

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Dec 2016 18:17

Frankly little idea about the covered dock capabilities of global shipyards,but I think that the Chinese have the largest ones of all.Shal ask some merchant shippy pals who know a bit about Chinese capabilities about this.Then again it also depends upon the size of the CV. If it is the size of our new Vikrant it shouldn't be a problem as the PRC is supposed to be building their 65K t CVs in a covered yard.

nits · Post by **nits** » 12 Dec 2016 20:05

Latest Image of INS Vikrant

If we compare this to old pics we saw on BR; work is going on a Good Pace IMO

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2016 22:21

Nikolayev shipyard in ukraine where kuznetsov and varyag were made had a covered construction area iirc ....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2016 22:22

Singha wrote:Nikolayev shipyard in ukraine where kuznetsov and varyag were made had a covered construction area iirc ....

Because of shiver-me-timbers I think. Until I was 30 I used to believe that it snows indoors in Russia.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Dec 2016 23:35

nits wrote:Latest Image of INS Vikrant

If we compare this to old pics we saw on BR; work is going on a Good Pace IMO

One beautiful ship. WOW! Thanks nits.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Dec 2016 00:19

INS Betwa Accident is Serious, But Does the Fault Lie Elsewhere?
https://www.thequint.com/blogs/2016/12/ ... indhyagiri

(Author: Captain KP Sanjeev Kumar is a former navy test pilot and blogs at http://www.kaypius.com. He can be reached at kipsake1@gmail.com. Views expressed in this article are personal.)