IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23380
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 26 May 2015 08:57


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20056
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26th May

Postby Philip » 26 May 2015 09:14

This has several Ind. mil aviation issue sin it,but am posting it here.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 832671.ece
Potential Trailblazer for Defence Indigenisation
By Manmohan Bahadur
Published: 26th May 2015

May 13 has a special significance in India’s contemporary history, as on this day in 1998 India tested the last two nuclear devices as part of Pokhran II. They propelled India into the select league possessing a nuclear deterrent, but deep down Indian military power lacked the strategic depth afforded by an indigenous defence industry. May 13 of this year added another bookmark to this date; India took the first real step in its drive to address this void when the Defence Acquisition Council accepted the single vendor Tata-Airbus offer of manufacturing, in-country, the C-295 as an Avro replacement aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF). It is just the catalyst required for defence indigenisation as also an indicator of the government’s determination to get a home-grown defence industrial base going, with the private sector being an equal partner to the defence public sector undertakings (DPSUs).

It has been repeated ad nauseum that our defence ministry has gone through a long Arctic winter these past ten years during which, among many things, the Army got depleted of its artillery guns, the Navy of its submarines and the IAF of its strike squadron strength. So, how does acquisition of a transport aircraft become a game-changer? The answer lies in understanding the environment of fear and trepidation that has prevailed in the ministry of defence these past years, with decision makers looking for any straw in the wind to avoid recommending a purchase—anonymous letters, protests from rejected vendors, from MPs and even pressures from the DPSUs! As per South Block folklore, there was this defence secretary, who, on retirement, proudly announced that he did not sign a single contract in his term! The fear of the three Cs—CVC, CAG and CBI—stymied any proclivity on part of a bureaucrat or a politician to put his signature on a contract. The acceptance now of the $2 billion C-295 proposal shows a positive and bold mindset and “Make in India” seems to be on its way. Fast decision making can also be expected in future as the forthcoming amendment to the Prevention of Corruption Act (which makes obtaining prior permission a pre-requisite to file a case against a retired government official) would remove persecution worries of decision-takers.

It is just the start, and to paraphrase Robert Frost, there are many miles to go before we get a foothold on the slippery indigenisation track. But is all this brouhaha only for the 56 aircraft that the IAF would buy, plus a few more for other services? While an element of corporate gain is the underlying sine qua non for any private venture, the Avro replacement decision has to be seen as something bigger on the national canvas. Having been involved in the project from start, this author can attest to the fact that the IAF had this larger vision while proposing the novel private sector route. Besides future IAF requirement like replacement of the An-32 and maritime recce aircraft for the Navy, it is a unique opportunity to empower the private players in the multi-billion dollar civil aviation sector.

It would be incumbent on the Tatas to seize this opportunity and become trailblazers again, as they were in the early days of Indian aviation. They must build an ecosystem of micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) around the C 295 project to service the larger aviation sector so that these MSMEs feed into the global supply chain of aircraft majors—remember how the Maruti project has built up a world-class ancillary industry? The C-295 is a civil certified aircraft, too, and the Tatas must use their international image for quality to export it to other countries. And on the horizon, beyond the C-295, is the distant dream of our aviation pioneers to see a genuine Made in India aircraft take to the skies; the C-295 should give us the technology to be used as a base for further innovation and research and development (R&D).

Aerospace R&D requires brainy individuals and it is a pity that in our institutions of higher learning, very few students are opting for aerospace engineering. So, besides the philanthropy angle and the fact that the aviation industry requires skilled manpower, it would help the larger national cause if business houses (the likes of Tata, Mahindra, L&T et al) sponsor chairs of excellence in premier institutions to further the cause of aerospace learning; the channel to feed private enterprise has to be well endowed if the output is to be of some quality. The industry must remember that the Indian market (civil and defence) is in need of UAVs of all sizes, a host of helicopters (the Ka 226 deal with Russia is just a speck) and a multitude of aerial armaments—the list is endless; incidentally, the acquisition of 36 Rafale fighters would be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, considering the defence posture that India has to adopt due the prevailing security environment. And, as we expand our footprint across the high seas, the requirement of an amphibious aircraft gains great importance for surveillance and search and rescue; one must remember that as flight refueling aircraft extend the operational range of our Sukhois, Jaguars and MiG-29 Ks, the Combat Search and Rescue has to keep pace.

And finally, one just hopes that the government gives up the hair-brained scheme of some retired scientists and technocrats to make an 80-seater Regional Transport Passenger Aircraft. The government must channelise the scarce monies into genuine and doable R&D projects (including by private industry); while dreaming is good, let’s learn to walk before trying to sprint. Get the tax exemptions going for local players and ensure a level playing field for them vis-à-vis DPSUs and foreign OEMs by opening up DRDO labs for research as they are national assets. Since we will still be importing for the next decade (as setting up a defence industrial base takes time), we must use the buyer’s clout to force big buys to be manufactured in India. But for coordinating this national endeavour, ownership of the government’s indigenisation vision has to be entrusted to an accountable entity that has a long assured tenure in the job, to the tune of at least five years; implementation of this imperative is the key to making India self-sufficient in the cut-throat world of defence procurements. The first year of the defence ministry under the new dispensation has shown welcome positivity whose momentum needs to be maintained.

The writer, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is a distinguished fellow at Centre for Air Power Studies.


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7775
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26th May

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2015 18:12

They say that gloating is usually a waste of time, but I am gonna go against that rule on this occasion. Here we have the Raksha Mantri now saying that more Rafales - than the initial 36 planned - may be purchased. Not a definitive yes, but not closed out either. So there....from the horse's mouth. I am serving crow soup for you guys....you know who you are! :)

Parrikar volte-face opens door for more Rafale fighters, gives hope to Dassault
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2015/05/parrikar-volte-face-opens-door-for-more.html?m=1

There not many Indian defence deals which do not have follow on orders. For every one that you list, I will list five that do. Go ahead, make my day :mrgreen:

Picklu
BRFite
Posts: 1996
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26th May

Postby Picklu » 27 May 2015 20:18

^^^ won't do admiral. Put your money where your mouth is. :twisted:

how about a little bet. you promise to distribute 2 fully loaded rafale weight equivalent of mithai among BRFites on the day of raising for every additional rafale squadron. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26th May

Postby Vipul » 27 May 2015 20:33

^^^ To add to the above: Rakesh if not the costly kaju-roll's or dry fruit burfi's even the lowly petha or jalebi will do.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26th May

Postby Karan M » 27 May 2015 20:53

Admiral, good find!! :lol:

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7775
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26th May

Postby Rakesh » 27 May 2015 21:06

Picklu wrote:^^^ won't do admiral. Put your money where your mouth is. :twisted:
how about a little bet. you promise to distribute 2 fully loaded rafale weight equivalent of mithai among BRFites on the day of raising for every additional rafale squadron. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Vipul wrote:^^^ To add to the above: Rakesh if not the costly kaju-roll's or dry fruit burfi's even the lowly petha or jalebi will do.

Mere Bharat Vasiyo: If I am distributing mithai, it will be on my terms. So from my hand to you...here you go! Just follow the instructions and mithai you will have. Please take a special note of the freebie I am throwing you (look at the top right of the jalebi mix packet). The mithai is free and so is the squeezer...2 in 1!!! Disclaimer: I bear no legal responsibility for what you squeeze.

You will not get that with the F-18 or the F-16 :mrgreen:

Guys...in all seriousness though...no more mithai discussion, until the deal is signed. I will get a warning from the forum admins for steering the discussion away from the Rafale and on to mithai.

Image

member_28911
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_28911 » 27 May 2015 21:20

Aree ...Let 'em sign on the dotted line first.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53253
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ramana » 27 May 2015 21:46

Folks enough trolling. Back to discussion.
We all know track record.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby chaanakya » 27 May 2015 22:00

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 447936.cms
To add to the cauldron of confusion, German Defense Minister Ursula joins the fray of fighter deal. Gripen jumping in was not potent enough. Rafale has to make real serious effort. BTW EF was qualified in Technicals. Gripen failed just like Fs of USA.

"I again conveyed to the defence minister the interest of the Eurofighter nations in continuing talks, should the Indian side be interested," German defence minister Ursula von der Leyen said.

"That was was taken on board positively," she added, after meeting her counterpart, Manohar Parrikar, on Tuesday evening.

Germany has taken the lead in the sales pitch to India for the Eurofighter, made by Alenia Aermacchi, a subsidiary of Finmeccanica, Airbus Group and BAE Systems .

A

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3235
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 27 May 2015 23:06

Parrikar talks too much. Says one thing today, and has to retract tomorrow.

He also makes too many promises, with deadlines.

He should just quietly do his work, and talk only after something has been done

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 27 May 2015 23:44

Kakkaji, please see this article for the right context. Much of the media is anti BJP and will remain so. A few folks like Gokhale etc seem to have the inside track on and are willing to report with direct quotes and not made up interpretations

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/standp ... ry-2078241

niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5395
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby niran » 28 May 2015 12:18


A case in point is the freedom and impunity with which the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) operated in recent times, not meeting deadlines, obfuscating performance and delaying critical projects for the IAF. Under Parrikar however, HAL and other leading defense Public Sector Undertakings are now subject to fortnightly reviews and so is the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Perform or perish is the new mantra in the defense ministry.

this is called proper management, explain yourself every 15 days i can imagine babus rushing to explain themselves every 2 weeks in place of blame game. :mrgreen:

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20056
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 28 May 2015 13:04

"Perform or perish" the new mantra.MP must be a BRF lurker as we've been using the same phrase ad nauseum for aeons! Bl**dy good for him! This fortnightly monitoring will put paid to the bovine faeces and snake-oil that has been peddled by the DPSUs/DRDO for decades. At last someone is making them walk the talk.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 29 May 2015 14:46

Eurofighter believes price and time parameters for Rafale can’t be met

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 29th May 15

German defence minister, Ursula von der Leyen, who talked up her country’s submarine building capability during her Tuesday meeting with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, kept silent on the Eurofighter Typhoon, although Germany had led the campaign to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) the Typhoon.

The 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was scrapped by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris in April, when he requested French President Francois Hollande for 36 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition, in a government-to-government deal.

The Typhoon, like the Rafale, had satisfied the IAF in performance trials, losing out to the Dassault fighter by virtue of being more expensive. With a new format of buying only flyaway fighters, Eurofighter could convincingly argue it would be cheaper, since 571 Typhoons are on order compared to barely 225 Rafales.

Germany’s defence minister had been expected to raise the issue, after British prime minister, David Cameron, while campaigning for the British election in April had declared: “The British offer of Eurofighter Typhoons to India is still on the table… It will be a better deal than the Rafale”.

Yet, Eurofighter is relying on a waiting game. Company sources tell Business Standard they believe Dassault will be unable to meet India’s price expectations and delivery deadlines for the Rafale.

Parrikar has repeatedly clarified that Dassault would have to quote a lower price than what it bid in the MMRCA tender. The defence ministry has never specified what part of Dassault’s earlier quote will form the baseline for comparison, which it must now better. Analysts argue the baseline should be the price that Dassault offered for 18 Rafale fighters in flyaway condition. The rest of the MMRCA bid includes costs like technology transfer for building 108 Rafales in India, which have no place in the current 36-fighter purchase.

“Dassault had quoted $80 million in the MMRCA tender for each of the 18 Rafales it was to supply in flyaway condition. There is no way Dassault can supply the Rafale for less than $80 million today,” points out Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, an aerospace expert at the Observer Research Foundation.

Anonymous government officials are creating a high benchmark, putting out the word that Dassault had quoted $300 million per Rafale in the MMRCA tender. The Economic Times quoted government sources as saying Dassault would provide a 25 per cent discount, offering 36 Rafales for $200 million each, in a contract for about $8 billion.

This price would make the Rafale one-and-a-half times costlier than the fifth-generation Lockheed Martin F-35; four times costlier than the Sukhoi-30MKI; and nine times more expensive than the Tejas LCA.

Mitra says: “Obviously, the price that Dassault quotes for 36 fighters in flyaway condition will have to be compared with what it quoted in the MMRCA tender for 18 fighters in flyaway condition. That price is $80 million per fighter”.

However, Eurofighter estimates the Rafale’s current flyaway price to be at least US $150 million, a figure supported by public information on Armee de l’Aire (as the French air force is called) purchases.

Additionally, while freed from any liability to “Make in India”, Dassault would still have to discharge offsets worth 50 per cent of the contract price. That means French vendors would incur offset liabilities worth $2.7 billion on a total deal cost of about US $5.4 billion.

Dassault also faces major challenges in meeting India’s timelines. On April 10, when Modi met Hollande, a joint statement said the delivery of 36 Rafales “would be in [a] time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF.”

The next day, Parrikar stated in Goa that 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF in two years.

Eurofighter calculates that Dassault’s production line, which currently produces 11 Rafales per year, would take at least 18-24 months to ramp up to 24 fighters per year. Dassault’s sub-vendors need time to build enhanced capacities, step up production and deliver larger numbers to a Dassault production line that would meanwhile have to enhance its own capacities.

“Dassault has also to build 24 Rafales for Egypt; and another 24 for Qatar. Will these countries wait while Dassault treats India as a higher priority? I think not”, says a Eurofighter executive.

The IAF community plays down these apprehensions. “I don’t think we should obsess about getting all 36 Rafales in two years. What matters is signing the contract and getting the fighters in an accelerated time frame”, says Air Marshal Nirdosh Tyagi, who played a central role in the now-scrapped MMRCA contract.

Bharat Karnad of the Centre for Policy Research believes the only way delivery can meet deadlines is for the Armee de l’Aire to temporarily divert its own fighters to India, taking them back as Dassault’s production ramps up.

“This would allow IAF pilots to train and familiarize on the fighter. But it must be remembered the IAF has customised specifications for the Rafale, which are different from those of the Armee de l’Aire”, says Karnad.

Eurofighter GmbH, a consortium of companies from the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, has remained on the sidelines since January 2012, when Dassault’s quote was adjudged cheaper than Eurofighter’s. Through three years of negotiations with Dassault, Eurofighter has declared itself willing to supply the IAF the Typhoon, should negotiations with Dassault fail.

Eurofighter’s only pro-active move came last year, when it unilaterally reduced its quoted price by 20 per cent, and undertook to create 20,000 skilled jobs in India if it was awarded the contract for 126 MMRCAs.

Business Standard

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 29 May 2015 21:11

niran wrote:

A case in point is the freedom and impunity with which the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) operated in recent times, not meeting deadlines, obfuscating performance and delaying critical projects for the IAF. Under Parrikar however, HAL and other leading defense Public Sector Undertakings are now subject to fortnightly reviews and so is the Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Perform or perish is the new mantra in the defense ministry.

this is called proper management, explain yourself every 15 days i can imagine babus rushing to explain themselves every 2 weeks in place of blame game. :mrgreen:


As much I wish that this would be the case, a proactive Def Min taking constant interest in the workings of our local MIC, I doubt this was a standard case. Basically, as far as DRDO is concerned, there was no chief, so procedurally, decisions end up having to go to the Def Min.
Even discussions, eg whether DRDO can develop ammo to help the IA since imports aren't enough etc (see below)

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... tay-stuck/
With the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) without a full-time head for over three months now, decisions regarding “at least six major projects” are pending.

These decisions concern breakthrough in the ammunition issue, serviceability concerns/ upgradation of Arjun tanks, firing of Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System, testing of mountain Electronic Warfare systems, among others.
Last month, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had to step in to take decisions in the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun case that would have otherwise been taken at the DRDO level.


The above account is corroborated by http://www.breakingpropertynews.com/ind ... /233299929
A DRDO official, however, maintained that it did not solve the problem.
"Coordination between clusters is needed for smooth running of things. That is where the problem was," said an official aware of the developments.
A senior scientist, meanwhile, said that some tests also suffered due to lack of clear guidance.
"Some tests suffered because there was lack of clarity. There was no clear boss; it makes a lot of difference," said the scientist.


HAL is however, an entirely different story. It needs thorough restructuring and a complete clean up. The IJT fracas is only one in a long list of such "successes". Apart from the ALH program, the HAL story is all about license building and license building again.
The Jaguar-DARIN-3 upgrade also involves mostly imported equipment put together locally.

The ad hoc behavior wrt the LCA & all other programs with a local component is also worrisome.

In short the DPSU structure needs a lot of RM's time.
The problem makers/areas are are basically the OFB & HAL. BEL is trundling along, BDL likewise. But HAL's impact is disproportionate since its capex heavy & aerospace imports are really a huge blow to our economy.

A single Rafale deal is equal to revolutionizing healthcare systems or infra in many of our cities. HAL being non committal or less than 100% on the LCA can really impact us.
Similarly, OFB's waste and lack of QA/QC is a huge issue.

Arms vendors and crooks play on this. And their local shills who play up their dodgy works then use OFB as an excuse.

So that needs to be fixed as well.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2137
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Vivek K » 29 May 2015 23:00

If HAL, OFB were privatized, the resulting private players would block imports and work to keep their shareholders happy.

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_23694 » 30 May 2015 15:30

PM comment on Rafale in an interview to Raj Chengappa

Question : On Defence, you went to France and made a bold decision to purchase 36 Rafael fighter aircraft. People have questioned the rationale behind this step.

A good government has to strike the right balance between different priorities. “Make in India” is very important for me. So too is ensuring national security. I will not compromise on either. The purchase of Rafale aircraft was guided by the need to respond to the immediate operational requirements of the Air Force which was affecting our defence capability. How can that be questioned? In fact, the challenge is to break a logjam that we inherited from the previous government. Some decision had to be taken. We consulted all concerned and decided that we will have only a government-to-government deal. There will be transparency, so no one will be able to raise questions. There will be further discussions on this matter soon. I would mention that during my recent visit to France, the senior leadership of their defence industry showed great enthusiasm for participating in our “Make in India” programme.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 31 May 2015 04:17

Some 4 squadrons overall of Rafale (with 2 to begin with) plus the 3 squadrons of upgraded Mirages are more than enough to deter Pak and also give a bloody nose to PRC. Common missiles and munitions.
They should be dedicated to deep strike to make use of the Rafales phenomenal payload to weight combo. And strategic purposes. Eg Meteor will allow Rafales to take out opponent AEW&C at range, snipers.

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1437
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Sumeet » 31 May 2015 14:10

Seems like its just 36 and no more if this report below is correct. Parrikar has summed it up pretty much in this PTI report that directly quotes him. Some people on this forum and especially this thread would be elated.

Rafale for strategic purpose means Nuclear delivery platform ??

No need for 126 Rafales: Parrikar

NEW DELHI: Terming the UPA's proposed deal for 126 Rafale fighter jets as "economically unviable" and not required, Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said the NDA government will buy only 36 of the French aircraft, to be used for strategic purposes, and no more.

Parrikar also raised questions on the tendering process initiated by former Defence minister AK Antony and said his predecessor had "hammered" the tender in such a way that the Rafale deal would have never seen the light of the day.

Rejecting criticism from the Congress that Prime Minister Narendra Modi had bypassed the Finance Ministry and the Defence Acquisition Council, the apex body of the Defence Ministry that takes the call on military projects, Parrikar said "the deal is yet to be inked" and they should hold their horses till the process was complete.

He expressed confidence that the Committee, that has been set up to work out the contract, would complete the task in the next 2-3 months.

The Modi government has scrapped the over USD 20 billion deal for 126 Rafales more than three years after Dassault was declared the lowest bidder under UPA's tenure.

During his visit to France last month, the Prime Minister announced the decision to buy 36 of these jets in a fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract. Parrikar underlined that the decision to acquire 36 Rafales came in view of the "urgent requirement" of Indian Air Force.

"We are not buying the rest. We are only buying the direct 36," Parrikar told PTI when asked what will happen to rest of the requirement.


He said that the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore :eek: over a period of 10-11 years, he added.

"Would there be any money for any other work?" he asked. "I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it. First I can't afford it and second I don't need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required," Parrikar said.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 31 May 2015 15:19

Sumeet wrote:Seems like its just 36 and no more if this report below is correct. Parrikar has summed it up pretty much in this PTI report that directly quotes him. Some people on this forum and especially this thread would be elated.

Not elated, not while the logistically and economically senseless decision purchase two squadrons still persists. However, his interview does confirm what many on the forum have been saying for a long time.

- The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore (that's well over $20bn, without counting weapons)
- 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required.

Rafale for strategic purpose means Nuclear delivery platform ??

Not without the ASMP-A, which isn't on offer. Our preferred vector for tactical nuclear strikes will remain the Nirbhay and Prithvi.

prahaar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2797
Joined: 15 Oct 2005 04:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby prahaar » 31 May 2015 15:35

There was a talk by ex SFC head where he said it on US soil that prithvi is going to be phased out soon. Nirbhay has not even been inducted. Also based on the same Admiral's talk, discussion about tactical and strategic nuclear attack does not make sense. I have noticed MP has used strategic word not in a nuclear weapon sense at least in one interview.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 31 May 2015 16:49

Sumeet, plans change. More will come, if the first 36 come, and the economy improves, mark my words. No great soothsaying BTW, just going by past history, operational needs and what the IAF will propose.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 31 May 2015 17:06

Rafale may not get the ASMP but it may get the ALA.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18411
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 31 May 2015 17:07

prahaar wrote:There was a talk by ex SFC head where he said it on US soil that prithvi is going to be phased out soon. Nirbhay has not even been inducted. Also based on the same Admiral's talk, discussion about tactical and strategic nuclear attack does not make sense. I have noticed MP has used strategic word not in a nuclear weapon sense at least in one interview.


They should just hand the Prithvis over to the IAF.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1113
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RKumar » 31 May 2015 17:13

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6865&start=3880#p1846270

Confirmed by our DM

Prithvi -> slowly decommissioning as it has served its purpose. Everyone know which job its doing, so can not leave any confusion on its usage.

sooraj
BRFite
Posts: 1060
Joined: 06 May 2011 15:45

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby sooraj » 31 May 2015 17:42

SFC command will be get 36 Rafales, so no Rafales for IAF

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 May 2015 18:21

Viv S wrote:....Not elated, not while the logistically and economically senseless decision purchase two squadrons still persists.


I don't know the amount but I did hear that the MMRCA had a cancellation penalty. Subtract that from the cost of 36 and then the $2bn offset and the economics might change.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7758
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 31 May 2015 18:26

Wouldn't cancellation policy apply to signed contracts? If you haven't signed a contract what will you cancel and pay a penalty on?

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2502
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby abhik » 31 May 2015 19:22

Cosmo_R wrote:
Viv S wrote:....Not elated, not while the logistically and economically senseless decision purchase two squadrons still persists.


I don't know the amount but I did hear that the MMRCA had a cancellation penalty. Subtract that from the cost of 36 and then the $2bn offset and the economics might change.

Pretty sure the all Indian defence contract are on no-commitment basis only. If not we would be paying out more penalties than for actual weapons procured.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 31 May 2015 20:52

abhik wrote:..
Pretty sure the all Indian defence contract are on no-commitment basis only. If not we would be paying out more penalties than for actual weapons procured.


This was apparently special to the MMRCA. It was raised during NaMo's visit to Paris (in public fora).

krish.pf
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 20:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby krish.pf » 31 May 2015 21:09

NEW DELHI: Terming the UPA's proposed deal for 126 Rafale fighter jets as "economically unviable" and not required, Defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said the NDA government will buy only 36 of the French aircraft, to be used for strategic purposes, and no more.

Parrikar also raised questions on the tendering process initiated by former Defence minister AK Antony and said his predecessor had "hammered" the tender in such a way that the Rafale deal would have never seen the light of the day.

Rejecting criticism from the Congress that Prime Minister Narendra Modi had bypassed the Finance Ministry and the Defence Acquisition Council, the apex body of the Defence Ministry that takes the call on military projects, Parrikar said "the deal is yet to be inked" and they should hold their horses till the process was complete.

He expressed confidence that the Committee, that has been set up to work out the contract, would complete the task in the next 2-3 months.

The Modi government has scrapped the over USD 20 billion deal for 126 Rafales more than three years after Dassault was declared the lowest bidder under UPA's tenure.

During his visit to France last month, the Prime Minister announced the decision to buy 36 of these jets in a fly-away condition under a government-to-government (G2G) contract. Parrikar underlined that the decision to acquire 36 Rafales came in view of the "urgent requirement" of Indian Air Force.

"We are not buying the rest. We are only buying the direct 36," Parrikar told PTI when asked what will happen to rest of the requirement.


He said that the UPA deal for 126 Rafales was way too expensive and it would have hampered other modernisation plans of the Indian military.

The deal would have required around Rs 1.3 lakh crore :eek: over a period of 10-11 years, he added.

"Would there be any money for any other work?" he asked. "I also feel like having a BMW and Mercedes. But I don't because I can't afford it. First I can't afford it and second I don't need it. So, 126 Rafales was economically unviable. It was not required," Parrikar said.

The worst fears have come into fruition. What is the point of 36 fighters? Do these 'leaders' even have a brain.

And India is not some superpower to dedicate 36 perfectly tactical battlefield capable fighters(in some mythical SFC squadron) to be gathering dust in the hangars, till a need arises for them to perform a nuclear strike. These fighters will be used for all purposes in the IAF, and they will need maintenance like any other fighter. And because of their low numbers, the costs will be prohibitively high.

Thanks for dumbest decision yet in the history of the IAF, Modi. You will always be remembered for this stupidity.

Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 31 May 2015 21:14

krish.pf wrote:Thanks for dumbest decision yet in the history of the IAF, Modi. You will always be remembered for this stupidity.


Is the contract signed? Is it close to being signed? Is there a surety that it will be signed? Why pronounce judgement even before the charges have been read?

krish.pf
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 20:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby krish.pf » 31 May 2015 21:30

Viv S wrote:
krish.pf wrote:Thanks for dumbest decision yet in the history of the IAF, Modi. You will always be remembered for this stupidity.


Is the contract signed? Is it close to being signed? Is there a surety that it will be signed? Why pronounce judgement even before the charges have been read?

The contract was initiated by him. Regardless of whether it is signed or not, he was the one who came up with this brilliant idea to get into this inane contract. Now his DM is confirming these are the only rafales which will be bought.

The only hope now is to pray the french screw up on the price, else there is no hope left.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby chaanakya » 31 May 2015 22:38

What could be the better decision in the circumstances in your opinion, krish.pf

krish.pf
BRFite
Posts: 132
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 20:30

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby krish.pf » 01 Jun 2015 05:14

IMO, the best would have been to get additional MKIs and improve the operational readiness of the existing ones, and stick with Tejas. And if IAF insists on the 3rd fighter logic, when the rest of the major airforces only have a 2 fighter types policy, then get them some new mothballed MiG-29S's and upgrade them to SMTs(like the russian airforce is doing) as stop gap and see where the Tejas MK-2 and PAK-FA goes.
Not the best, but another alternative is to bite the bullet and go for the Rafales..and the hefty bill, but spanning 20 years.
This flyaway condition, very few number, no Indian entity qualified to make even the lowliest of spares, is the worst which could happen.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby koti » 01 Jun 2015 07:19

krish.pf wrote:IMO, the best would have been to get additional MKIs and improve the operational readiness of the existing ones, and stick with Tejas. And if IAF insists on the 3rd fighter logic, when the rest of the major airforces only have a 2 fighter types policy, then get them some new mothballed MiG-29S's and upgrade them to SMTs(like the russian airforce is doing) as stop gap and see where the Tejas MK-2 and PAK-FA goes.
Not the best, but another alternative is to bite the bullet and go for the Rafales..and the hefty bill, but spanning 20 years.
This flyaway condition, very few number, no Indian entity qualified to make even the lowliest of spares, is the worst which could happen.

It is one of the solutions. Now, do you really think this would not have been considered? The Govt is not the Defense ministry alone, there are other arenas where India needs French partnership. From technological cooperation to International political backing.
And then there is the IAF that vocally wants the plane and its capabilities.

It is obvious it is a not a sound financial decision, but it has its benefits that the govt feels are justified and made a decision on.

prat.patel
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 52
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby prat.patel » 01 Jun 2015 07:53

koti wrote:
krish.pf wrote:IMO, the best would have been to get additional MKIs and improve the operational readiness of the existing ones, and stick with Tejas. And if IAF insists on the 3rd fighter logic, when the rest of the major airforces only have a 2 fighter types policy, then get them some new mothballed MiG-29S's and upgrade them to SMTs(like the russian airforce is doing) as stop gap and see where the Tejas MK-2 and PAK-FA goes.
Not the best, but another alternative is to bite the bullet and go for the Rafales..and the hefty bill, but spanning 20 years.
This flyaway condition, very few number, no Indian entity qualified to make even the lowliest of spares, is the worst which could happen.

It is one of the solutions. Now, do you really think this would not have been considered? The Govt is not the Defense ministry alone, there are other arenas where India needs French partnership. From technological cooperation to International political backing.
And then there is the IAF that vocally wants the plane and its capabilities.

It is obvious it is a not a sound financial decision, but it has its benefits that the govt feels are justified and made a decision on.


+1
There were lot of other significant deals signed on that trip (including one in nuclear power generation area). I am sure this was just a way of getting this sore/sticky issue out of the way to clear up the path for a larger strategic partnership.
This also conclusively closed the chapter on the MMRCA for good. Yes; the deal on its own itself does not make that much sense; but please look at it in larger scheme of things and it was a bargain we could settle for.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20056
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 01 Jun 2015 09:43

A sober review of the IAF's future force to meet present and future challenges must be made,so that the best cost-effective decisions are taken reg. acquisitions from abroad,local production,etc.

Looking at the picture right now,the Paki challenge will come more from increased sqd. strength rather than dramatically improved quality.The upgraded F-16s are their best aircraft as of now,still inferior to our MKis and upgraded MIG-29s.The JF-17 is at best ,equipped with all the bells and whistles that the PRC can provide,will find it tough going to defeat early LCA MK-1s in air combat,though they will be very useful in GA/close support roles equipped with a variety of PRC ASMs,PGMs,etc. Therefore,what we need for countering the Pakis (our Rafales and M-2000 UGs will be used more in deep strike roles) is a cost-effective fighter that can be churned out in numbers to meet the 45+ sqd. strength.That was to have been the LCA,but given its delayed development and Mk-1 not meeting IAF stds.,right now it is simply not available. MK-2 as the former DRDO chief has just said, can be achieved within "8yrs"! So only post 2020 will the IAF get its MK-2 babies which we hope meets its high performance requirements.

During this time,hundreds of MIG-21s and MIG-27s will be pensioned off with NO replacements at hand.The Rafale is out of the Q given its cost. One sensible option is to acquire more MIG-29s,of at least UG std. It would be better if they come with an AESA radar and TVC as on the MIG-35s.2-3 sqds. of these could replace half of the retiring MIG-21s and MIG-27s,with the balance with LCAs,Mk-1/2s.
Despite some sceptics,the MIG-29 is an aircraft still being built,an almost completely new aircraft compared with the original versions,being bought and upgraded as Russia,the IN,Egypt,Poland and others are investing in.With MIG-29 upgrades all being carried out in India with engine manufacture too,support,MRO,etc. will not be difficult.60 29UG std. should not cost approx. only $2.5B Another 60+ LCAs will cost around $1.5B-$2B ,so for around just $4B,one would get 120+ v.capable aircraft that can look after the Paki threat.

For the PLAAF,the bulk of the MKIs with extras if need be ,can do the business.By 2020 hopefully the first of the FGFAs will also be arriving to maintain the qualitative diff. over the PLAAF which will also be getting its first stealth fighters into service. Once LCA MK-2 production is stabilized and accelerated,the IAF can order them in the hundreds to meet the 45sqd. strength hoped for. The only big Q in this is when and whether the MK-2 which is going to require much redesign will arrive.If it is also delayed,then what will the IAF want?

kvraghav
BRFite
Posts: 771
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 11:47
Location: Some where near the equator

Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby kvraghav » 01 Jun 2015 10:54

^^
The nuclear role of the IAF is still fulfilled by Mirage 2000 or By the MKI?
Just asking because i feel The IAF feels that the Mirage 2000 and Rafael might be more adept at delivering those rather than a Huge MKI and that might explain the word strategic. No point in cribbing about the number 36 if the above is the case.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests