IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Karan M
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote: Sigh, still missing the point by a mile!! It need not be PS'ed - it could have merely been the first set with larger modules. Thats not the issue though.

When your peers have much larger module counts, 1mtr dia F-15, Su-30 class apertures, T-50 etc, bragging about 1000 in an era wherein targets are getting smaller is not exactly an advantage.

Admit the facts. Which can accomodate a larger dia radar. EF or Rafale? F-15 or Rafale? Su-30 or Rafale?
Radar diameter is just one parameter among many. Rafales multi sensor fusion, SA, MMI and EW more than make up for this.[/quote]

Oh ho!! The skies weep. Admission from Arthuro that Rafale's radar diameter is limited. As always magical SA, MMI and EW will make up for it all. :lol: :lol:

PS: What if the opponent has equal SA, MMI, EW AND a bigger radar. :P :
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by brar_w »

Arthuro, ROE's are important but ROE's aside what this shows is that on any given day an older aircraft with older technology can be extremely disrespectful of young aircraft with a lot of high technology stuff in a phone booth. I have never ever seen much on ROE's when Rafale folks have shared a picture of an F-22 in a Rafale's HUD. Heck even the USAF drivers chuckle and have posted umpteen photos of raptor's getting killed. There is even a video on youtube of an F-22 instructor flying a T-38 trainer and having an F-22 in its gun sights. ROE's are ROE's and everyone understands the impact they have on determining DACT but those were never brought into question when the claims of Rafale superiority over the Typhoon or practically anything that ever has flown including the F-22 is claimed by those that back it. I don't understand what the fuss is about. The Super Flanker is near perfection in this regime and is well regarded by all its comeptitors. Some have chosen to stay away from it tactically and by investing in other areas to counter this..areas such as avionics, low observability and net-centric warfare but all FEAR and REGARD the Flanker family exceptional in this envelope. It is therefore no surprise that it did so well here...Regardless of whether you believe the score was 12-0 or 8-4 or whatever swapping the typhoon with the rafale is not going to change much. Of course in BVR having a range and envelope limit set favors one aircraft more than the other since one side has invested heavily in having an edge there..but even there that investment has not found its way into the Typhoon and the Rafale even with an AESA is limited when compared to similar fighters with larger apertures. The goal in actual war is to have a weapons system that allows you to WIN..if you have overall capability that gives you relative confidence in your ability to succeed you need not go out there and better each and every performance metric where the other side may be superior. NATO's strength lies in its AMRAAM arsenal, its AEW fleet, its modern fighter fleet soon to be large 5th generation fleet and its ability to execute large scale net-centric warfare compared to Russia. Yet that does not mean that Russia currently develops fighters that in some metrics are significantly superior to their western counterparts.

When the Typhoon gets the E-SCAN and Meteor and further enhancements to its fusion it will be a very capable fighter...A modern day F-15C with a phoenix class weapon with the performance at the high altitude mach 1+ SPEED TO exploit it. if you wish to compare its likely missions in a deployment. As mentioned earlier that's an investment driver. For the US the investment driver has been stealth, sensor fusion and upgrading the seekers of their missiles to account for an intense jamming environment. It is the only air-force that I know off that routinely launches its BVR missiles at DRFM protected QF-4's and soon QF-16's. That's the investment driver for them and you can see the trades being made in other areas to concentrate for this investment. The F-35 for example is by all accounts designed around maneuverability requirements of the F-16C and F-18C and falls somewhere in between them. That performance envelope has been traded away for things like stealth, having superiority in sensors, fusion and maintaining that over time. The Sukhois have remarkable range and very large sensor apertures (similar design philosophy to the F-15C and for largely similar reasons) and their investment drivers as the aircraft transitioned from the Su-27 to the Su-35, 37 and 30MK families has been enhancement maneuverability. The IAF has been able to marry that with western electronics, and indigenous capabilities in areas where it is superior to what the Russians offer. With indigenous weapons in the ASTRA and the Brahmos this unique capability is enhanced further.

No one claims that their fighter covers everything. F-15C's brought AESA much earlier to everyone else (in 2000) and have upgraded those radars twice by 2014 (latest being AN/APG-82)..The AMRAAM's evolution has outpaced its competitors..and so has the waveforms for net-centric warfare. The Russians have managed to squeeze out extreme maneuverability from an already super maneuverable platform in the Su-27. However, no one claims like some Rafale folks that it has superiority in each and everything, every envelope, every sensor, every fusion and every performance metric worth being included in a fighter aircraft. For example the shortcomings of the F-22A to the F-15C and E are well known and openly analyzed by folks. Yet its a function of the trade space in the mission requirement. The F-22A can never replace the F-15E for example. Similarly the JSF trades away certain performance for other performance criteria. Similarly the Rafale makes trades as well and those trades are well understood by both its main designers (the French) and its potential operators.

No one goes out with the mindset of designing the best fighter aircraft in all envelopes the world has ever seen. They go out to design an aircraft that has the best possible attributes specific to its mission requirements that they can afford. As the Pilot from Luke AFB said a few months ago, Ideally I want to have 8 engines, travel at Mach 3 and shoot lasers. But realities make you TRADE one aspect for another. What the Rafale trades vs a Typhoon (or vice versa) or against the Flanker can be analyzed and understood if one were to shed away " My aircraft is superior in all aspects" mentality.
Last edited by brar_w on 10 Aug 2015 18:02, edited 10 times in total.
Karan M
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote:-First, my comments are backed with sources as often as possible. I could make the same statement on your posts : talking about the F4 kills without detailing the ROEs, omitting officials source of info on rafale's modules.
Err no.. you only selectively quote stuff that backs up your own preconceived notions about oh so superior Rafale. What I posted just punched a huge hole in your claims of how invulnerable it was in exercises and how the Su class is behind. No other group makes a claim as you do of magical pixie dust without even the data to back it, bar PR material from the Rafale side.
-As for a second source of fighter requirement, this is just an external analysis but this has never been confirmed officialy. For the record the mig 35 took part in the technical evaluation. If this was really a criteria it should not have take part in the competition.
Ah yes, it has to be confirmed officially so India can damage its ties with Russia just so that you can quote it. Which world do you live in?
When you know little about anything regarding the Su-30 or its performance or its IAF experience.
-As for rafale in technical evaluations it won Korea, Singapore, Brazil, Swiss and Koweite ones. It came a very close second to the F35 in the Netherlands and toped the IAF evaluation with the Typhoon among six competitors. Not bad. As for most other airforces, they have gone to direct negotiation for strategic reasons.
Who says the Rafale topped? Did IAF call you? Or are you selecting those media articles which said R topped and EF was second. :lol: And here we Indians were thinking we went by L1 process which is the official policy, only to find out data was hidden by the R side, costs rose and the entire process was scrapped as a result.
Funny, in most other competitions, R wins but some other plane is purchased. Looks like that record may repeat with India too. :lol:
Last edited by Karan M on 10 Aug 2015 17:37, edited 1 time in total.
arthuro
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Many claims to have sensor fusion, but very few achieve it.

You can find official PPT slides on the typhoon claiming sensor fusion all over the net (just google on picture searchfinder) but this has been described by actual testers and pilots as a typhoon weak point in both the swiss eval and in the 2015 british RUSI report.

Often, competitors claims that simple tracks correlation is sensor fusion while is much more than that (see FR35 slides on the SU30 topic).

Now I can't say for the SU35 as I lack information but at this stage I am rather dubious.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote:Many claims to have sensor fusion, but very few achieve it.

You can find official PPT slides on the typhoon claiming sensor fusion all over the net (just google on picture searchfinder) but this has been described by actual testers and pilots as a typhoon weak point in both the swiss eval and in the 2015 british RUSI report.
You mean like those claims from the Rafale side which claimed that it had mode interleaving when it was yet to achieve it? Like claiming IR capability when it has to rely on AAMs in lieu of an IRST? :rotfl:
Often, competitors claims that simple tracks correlation is sensor fusion while is much more than that (see FR35 slides on the SU30 topic).
Yes, yes, whatever R side claims is sensor fusion is sensor fusion. Magic!! Whatever Su-35, Indian AEW&C, JSF, EF etc achieve is always different.. and behind.
Now I can't say for the SU35 as I lack information but at this stage I am rather dubious.
Enough data has been provided to you in the past on this forum itself. Search it.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Karan M wrote:
arthuro wrote:-First, my comments are backed with sources as often as possible. I could make the same statement on your posts : talking about the F4 kills without detailing the ROEs, omitting officials source of info on rafale's modules.
Err no.. you only selectively quote stuff that backs up your own preconceived notions about oh so superior Rafale. What I posted just punched a huge hole in your claims of how invulnerable it was in exercises and how the Su class is behind. No other group makes a claim as you do of magical pixie dust without even the data to back it, bar PR material from the Rafale side.
-As for a second source of fighter requirement, this is just an external analysis but this has never been confirmed officialy. For the record the mig 35 took part in the technical evaluation. If this was really a criteria it should not have take part in the competition.
Ah yes, it has to be confirmed officially so India can damage its ties with Russia just so that you can quote it. Which world do you live in?
When you know little about anything regarding the Su-30 or its performance or its IAF experience.
-As for rafale in technical evaluations it won Korea, Singapore, Brazil, Swiss and Koweite ones. It came a very close second to the F35 in the Netherlands and toped the IAF evaluation with the Typhoon among six competitors. Not bad. As for most other airforces, they have gone to direct negotiation for strategic reasons.
Who says the Rafale topped? Did IAF call you? Or are you selecting those media articles which said R topped and EF was second. :lol: And here we Indians were thinking we went by L1 process which is the official policy, only to find out data was hidden by the R side, costs rose and the entire process was scrapped as a result.
Funny, in most other competitions, R wins but some other plane is purchased. Looks like that record may repeat with India too. :lol:
- My comments are backed with multiple various sources on the record. They all say rafale's sensor fusion is a key asset against competition. This is confirmed by independent reports like the swiss evaluation. There is no extrapolation.
- As I said no official confirmation, mere speculation, not coherent with the mig 35 invited in the competition. Just an argument to suit your view.
- Did I say the rafale topped IAF evaluation ahead of the typhoon here ? Your focus against me is puting words that I did not even write. Who is making up things ? Technical evaluation is only one side of the selection process and on this side only the rafale did pretty well.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by brar_w »

The Rafale did not top the Typhoon in BVR or any other performance metric in the MMRCA from what has been revealed. Much like the ATF competition, what they said was that 2 aircraft met the criteria and one was more affordable. That's the way I understand it anyway.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

brar_w wrote:The Rafale did not top the Typhoon in BVR or any other performance metric in the MMRCA from what has been revealed. Much like the ATF competition, what they said was that 2 aircraft met the criteria and one was more affordable. That's the way I understand it anyway.
did I say otherwise ? I just said the rafale toped IAF evaluation WITH the typhoon. Still it beated the F16IN, the SH, the gripen NG and the mig 35 which is not bad. If we were to listen the arguments of some here it should be incapable of winning any competitions (small radar, nothing special, overpriced etc). If you listen to what the pilot says of the aircraft you should realize that there is something else in the picture otherwise there is clearly something inconsistent. But when you quote actual sources of course, you are nothing more than a fanboy.

The tension is here : the rafale did very well in IAF eval, the IAF is pushing for more aircrafts and this cannot be accepted/understood by several posters which will find any arguments to explain the current situation and how the IAF is incompetent etc bare the possibility that the rafale could effectiveley bring something more operationnaly in the forces.
Last edited by arthuro on 10 Aug 2015 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by brar_w »

The point being that the IAF analyzed "future" variants of these fighters. The ones that they were likely to get. The ones that had an operational Meteor and an operational AESA radar all "then year" capabilities from a maturity and Operational status point of view. The Typhoon has a larger radar, performs very well at altitude and has good supersonic maneuverability that will be essential for how it employs and discharges its CONOPS with the E-SCAN/Meteor Combo. As a consequence of that envelope advantage the current typhoon does not perform as well as the Rhino, or the Rafale or other fighters in the medium altitude slower BFM engagements. Same thing with he F-15C vs F-16 or F-18..Of course you can get better at that envelope through TVC and LERX but those require investment and AGAIN TRADES both in money and performance.

You can pick other fighters and see the difference. The F-35A does not have the performance envelope of the F-15C or F-22A at the 40,000+ feet altitude and supersonic flight. That's a trade for its long endurance and weapons carriage flexibility at 30-40,000 feet altitude...Pick the F-15C and Su-27/30..The Eagle has better acceleration and supersonic handling, the Sukhoi slightly edges it out in climb and has better slower speed dogfighting capability that comes with its nearly a decade younger blended body design. The F-16 whips an F-15 in BFM because it can hold G's better but it has smaller apertures for sensors and is essentially a light weight fighter that has sacrificed sensor size and weight (plus sensor growth) for endurance (An F-16A can match an F-15A in many range scenarios).
Last edited by brar_w on 10 Aug 2015 18:20, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote:- My comments are backed with multiple various sources on the record. They all say rafale's sensor fusion is a key asset against competition. This is confirmed by independent reports like the swiss evaluation. There is no extrapolation.
LOL, all you do is extrapolation. You have taken French sources of claims of superiority in sensor fusion and then claim JSF, Sun, Sky, Moon, Su-35, EF, all are behind. Its laughable.
- As I said no official confirmation, mere speculation, not coherent with the mig 35 invited in the competition. Just an argument to suit your view.
As speculative as claiming Rafale topped all other competitions.
- Did I say the rafale topped IAF evaluation ahead of the typhoon here ? Your focus against me is puting words that I did not even write. Who is making up things ? Technical evaluation is only one side of the selection process and on this side only the rafale did pretty well.
And who said Rafale topped the technical evaluation. Did the IAF contact you. :lol:
Again cooking up stories to make the Rafale look great.

Like all the claims of being oh so superior against the Typhoon, Su-30/35 class etc on the basis of - WAIT FOR IT - superior SA/MMI/Its French!! :lol:

Meanwhile T-50 and JSF are both going ahead in flight trials and in a few years time, the Rafale will again.. be an also ran... :lol:
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

brar_w wrote:The Rafale did not top the Typhoon in BVR or any other performance metric in the MMRCA from what has been revealed. Much like the ATF competition, what they said was that 2 aircraft met the criteria and one was more affordable. That's the way I understand it anyway.
And the rest of the world. Except the Rafale fan club which concluded the Rafale came out first in each and every parameter there is. (even despite small nose size which limits its radar range but lets not discuss that)
Arthuro wrote:The tension is here : the rafale did very well in IAF eval, the IAF is pushing for more aircrafts and this cannot be accepted/understood by several posters which will find any arguments to explain the current situation and how the IAF is incompetent etc bare the possibility that the rafale could effectiveley bring something more operationnaly in the forces.
Err... actually the "tension" is more like "mirth" at the inability of a certain poster to understand that the Rafale is just another platform with its own set of pros and cons, and that the IAF has more options on the table than just the Rafale. Unfortunately, its you, with your blind devotion to the Rafale which thinks that if the IAFs Su-30s do well, then the IAF is either dishonest or the Indian side is unreliable (as versus the paragons of truth the French are) and that the Su-30 can never match the oh-so-great its magic le Rafale. :lol:

The insecurity you display is unbelievable. The IAFs Su-30s do well in BVR and WVR against Typhoon and you just have to obsess about how great the Rafale is, and only it, only it can beat ze Typhoon. Brits said so. Whereas anything Brits say for Rafale is propaganda. Perfidious Albion!! Jon Lake. British, pffttt!! :lol:
And Rafale is better than Su-30. Its better than everything out there. :lol: :lol:
All Russian, Indian, British, American, non French sources on their platforms have to be discounted. They don't match magic Rafale.
This sort of stuff is what makes anyone sensible go: :rotfl:
Last edited by Karan M on 10 Aug 2015 18:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

LOL, all you do is extrapolation. You have taken French sources of claims of superiority in sensor fusion and then claim JSF, Sun, Sky, Moon, Su-35, EF, all are behind. Its laughable.
-Aren't many doing the same with the SU30 and Typhoon exercise ? (double standard). Is the swiss evaluation or the british RUSI report a french source ? My point is not to prove the rafale is superior in every way but to explain that an AtA engagement does not limit to radar size. Multi sensor fusion, MMI, EW play a big role and some onfrontation between the rafale and the typhoon proves it.
-As for those rafale evaluations, google is your friend.
And who said Rafale topped the technical evaluation. Did the IAF contact you.
Again cooking up stories to make the Rafale look great.
Have you reading issue ?
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Philip »

Take a holistic view of the IAF's planned order of battle. It first wanted replacements for the hundreds of MIG-21/23/27s,etc. The LCA was supposed to deliver the goods,but it failed to appear on time. Thus,the 21 Bison was developed and 120+ built/modernized as an interim solution. The SU-30MKI made the grade as the top end air dominance fighter to ward off the PAF and PLAAF.As LCA delays increased,more MKIs were acquired and augmenting the medium sized multi-role sqds of the IAF was envisaged with upgrades of M2Ks and MIG-29s and acquiring a new MMRCA,the goal being 45 sqds. We are now down to less than 30 sqds.Unacceptable.

The flaw in the ointment has been the huge cost of the Rafale,selected after years of evaluation,etc. Instead of the MMRCA being less costly than the MKI,it costs double! Plus,every exercise with Eurocanards/western aircraft has shown the quality/relative superiority of the Flanker series which has greater upgrade potential because of its size-can accommodate more eqpt. and weaponry and brute power/TVC.With Astra and BMos,no European aircraft will come close (The US on the other hand has a combined strength of several aircraft types with which to fight its battles including many specialist EW types (Growlers,etc) and its capability is the sum of its combined assets and their synergy). The only reason 5+ years ago for acquiring a medium sized western bird was not to put all our eggs in one basket (Russia),because of reliable support/spares issues (USSR demise),not fear of sanctions,etc. That problem is steadily resolving itself with greater % of local manufacture of MKIs,MIG-29 engines,local support JVs,etc. for Russian milware.

We are now at a v.important crossroad,considering investing a huge amt. for a few 4++ gen fighter,inferior to an MKI which comes in at half the cost,while the FGFA deal,which will give us a definite advantage over any stealth bird the PRC can field is waiting to be finalised,which will secure our air dominance capability for the next decade. The recent exercises with the RAF have shown that acquiring the Rafale is now frankly unnecessary when we have increased our reliability factor for MKIs and the aircraft has proven itself most admirably against even the Eurofarter (that too after travelling thousands of miles with 100% reliability!). Which would one rather have? 72+ MKIs as against 36 Rafales? Or as I've pointed out before,even 120+ MIG-29UGs for the same price. Money saved in scrapping the Rafale could be well utilized in also acquiring the IJT alternatives now that the IJT has reportedly failed to deliver...from abroad and the IAF wants alternatives.
Last edited by Philip on 10 Aug 2015 18:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Err... actually the "tension" is more like "mirth" at the inability of a certain poster to understand that the Rafale is just another platform with its own set of pros and cons, and that the IAF has more options on the table than just the Rafale. Unfortunately, its you, with your blind devotion to the Rafale which thinks that if the IAFs Su-30s do well, then the IAF is either dishonest or the Indian side is unreliable (as versus the paragons of truth the French are) and that the Su-30 can never match the oh-so-great its magic le Rafale. All Russian, Indian, British, American, non French sources have to be discounted. They don't match magic Rafale.
This sort of stuff is what makes anyone sensible go:
I would rather say that you have a bias reading of things. Where did I say the IAF is dishonnest ? Where did I say the SU30 is no match against the rafale ? I just pointed pros and cons of the two platforms : raw power on one side and better SA, MMI and RCS for the other side. If respective advantages are played well each platform can have the upper hand against each other.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote:-Aren't many doing the same with the SU30 and Typhoon exercise ? (double standard).
LOL, do you even understand the meaning of irony!! You have been busy claiming the Su-30 news is not valid because the Brits said otherwise. Basically, you couldn't accept the fact the Su-30 could win.

Whereas whenever British sources smack the Rafale silly, you cry foul. Your double standards are exactly the point, and glad you are waking up!!
Is the swiss evaluation or the british RUSI report a french source ? My point is not to prove the rafale is superior in every way but to explain that an AtA engagement does not limit to radar size. Multi sensor fusion, MMI, EW play a big role and some onfrontation between the rafale and the typhoon proves it.
LOL, given you have no actual data on the actual ROE despite French claims which can be discounted applying the same standards you employ for all others, and ergo, its not MMI/EW etc but the fact that ROE made the Rafale win. Zimble. :lol:

PS: If you had any shred of objectivity, you'd realize the platforms the Rafale faced were at different stages of devpt and the Rafale itself has.. wait for it... lost to F-4, F-16, F-18. :lol:
-As for those rafale evaluations, google is your friend.
It clearly is not yours. Because if it was, you wouldn't know so less about all other platforms bar the Rafale ...oops magic Rafale.
And who said Rafale topped the technical evaluation. Did the IAF contact you.
Again cooking up stories to make the Rafale look great.Have you reading issue ?
No, do you? You were the one claiming Rafale topped the IAF tech eval. Prove it. Unless you run back and edit your post again.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Philip wrote:Take a holistic view of the IAF's planned order of battle. It first wanted replacements for the hundreds of MIG-21/23/27s,etc. The LCA was supposed to deliver the goods,but it failed to appear on time. Thus,the 21 Bison was developed and 120+ built/modernized as an interim solution. The SU-30MKI made the grade as the top end air dominance fighter to ward off the PAF and PLAAF.As LCA delays increased,more MKIs were acquired and augmenting the medium sized multi-role sqds of the IAF was envisaged with upgrades of M2Ks and MIG-29s and acquiring a new MMRCA,the goal being 45 sqds. We are now down to less than 30 sqds.Unacceptable.

The flaw in the ointment has been the huge cost of the Rafale,selected after years of evaluation,etc. Instead of the MMRCA being less costly than the MKI,it costs double! Plus,every exercise with Eurocanards/western aircraft has shown the quality/relative superiority of the Flanker series which has greater upgrade potential because of its size-can accommodate more eqpt. and weaponry and brute power/TVC.With Astra and BMos,no European aircraft will come close (The US on the other hand has a combined strength of several aircraft types with which to fight its battles including many specialist EW types (Growlers,etc) and its capability is the sum of its combined assets and their synergy). The only reason 5+ years ago for acquiring a medium sized western bird was not to put all our eggs in one basket (Russia),because of reliable support/spares issues (USSR demise),not fear of sanctions,etc. That problem is steadily resolving itself with greater % of local manufacture of MKIs,MIG-29 engines,local support JVs,etc. for Russian milware.

We are now at a v.important crossroad,considering investing a huge amt. for a few 4++ gen fighter,inferior to an MKI which comes in at half the cost,while the FGFA deal,which will give us a definite advantage over any stealth bird the PRC can field is waiting to be finalised,which will secure our air dominance capability for the next decade. The recent exercises with the RAF have shown that acquiring the Rafale is now frankly unnecessary when we have increased our reliability factor for MKIs and the aircraft has proven itself most admirably against even the Eurofarter. Which would one rather have? 72+ MKIs as against 36 Rafales? Or as I've pointed out before,even 120+ MIG-29UGs for the same price. Money saved in scrapping the Rafale could be well utilized in also acquiring the IJT alternatives now that the IJT has reportedly failed to deliver...from abroad and the IAF wants alternatives.
The SU30 just proved it handles better than the typhoon at slow speed. The F18 already proved it, the rafale already proved it...As for BVR IAF and RAF disagrees. And why the IAF is pushing for additional rafales if the comparison was so obvious ?
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote:
Err... actually the "tension" is more like "mirth" at the inability of a certain poster to understand that the Rafale is just another platform with its own set of pros and cons, and that the IAF has more options on the table than just the Rafale. Unfortunately, its you, with your blind devotion to the Rafale which thinks that if the IAFs Su-30s do well, then the IAF is either dishonest or the Indian side is unreliable (as versus the paragons of truth the French are) and that the Su-30 can never match the oh-so-great its magic le Rafale. All Russian, Indian, British, American, non French sources have to be discounted. They don't match magic Rafale.
This sort of stuff is what makes anyone sensible go:
I would rather say that you have a bias reading of things. Where did I say the IAF is dishonnest ?
Then where exactly what was the point of your claiming the Su-30 claims were wrong? Don't dance around here.
Where did I say the SU30 is no match against the rafale ? I just pointed pros and cons of the two platforms : raw power on one side and better SA, MMI and RCS for the other side. If respective advantages are played well each platform can have the upper hand against each other.
Oh my, the raw power of the Su-30. Must include a wider range of weapons integrated then, and a second pair of eyes to focus purely on battle management as versus the overloaded single seater Rafale.

The effort it took to you having been dragged to this conclusion. Good!!

PS: The so called sophistication you brag about is no big deal about. Look up the Su-35 passport. Google is your friend.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

arthuro wrote:The SU30 just proved it handles better than the typhoon at slow speed.
If thats what you think the comparison is about, then so much for Team Rafale. :lol:
The F18 already proved it, the rafale already proved it...As for BVR IAF and RAF disagrees.
The same way UK claims EF spanks the Rafale in BVR.. :lol: ..
And why the IAF is pushing for additional rafales if the comparison was so obvious ?
You know the answer, but you can't admit it, because its against the concept of "magic Rafale". :lol:
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Karan M »

Magic Rafale again. Against Greek F-16 Block 52+, here is what a Greek mag reported.
the aircraft our boys faced were M version F1standard with PESA

the major points....

1)our lack of RWR..the French "aborted" most of the times we got a lock on them...we didnt ,coz we didnt know it due to the absence of such a RWR system..

2)the great performance of the AGP-68(V)9 we use...gave us the oportunity to spot the French from quite a long distance and coordinate our reactions...through the link system between our 52s..which lead to confirmed shots on 2-3 Rafales..
and receive an unconfirmed numbers of shots too ofcource...

3)due to the passive mode of the RBE2 its range is inferior to the active AESA,and HAF estimates that in terms of range it must not be superior to the AGP-(V)9

4)after the first co-training the French requested a second one ...to test their new gem...which is obviously flaterring to the crews and the performance of the 115CW

5)the ECCM of the 52s worked smoothely when the Spectra of the Rafale entered in ECM mode..

6)while the French pilots reported all the shots as a shoot-down, :lol: :lol: Greek side improved its performance placing the majority of its shots in the "noescape" zone of the Ammram,unlike the previous encounter..

7)in all,the Rafale showed a marginal superiority but with a large numbr of PK (low probability of success) shots,unlike the 52s...fewer shots but in the no escape zone..

8)one of our EMB-145H worked closely with the CDG carrier,testing its Link16 and Link11...After its take-off from its base,established a connection within 10 mins with the French carrier ...thus certifying its capabilities in netcentric ops ,something usefull other co-trainings with the French in the future
Magic Rafale for ze win.

These sources have as much credibility as the French magazines quoted prior. Ouch.

Point is this aircraft is hardly as soup-e-rear versus several legacy platforms. Its being developed but the rest of the world has advanced Flankers and what not too.

The Rafale has 1000 TRM modules!! Yes, and the F-16 Block 60 had that some 15 years back and more superior versions exist today.
Rafale has AESA. Yes. But Flankers with PESA can match it in most key parameters and may be ahead in other key ones, check Irbis.
Rafale has sensor fusion. So do most fighters in development, and upgrades are being added to almost all legacy platforms. Su-35, EF, JSF, T-50, F-18 etc etc.
Rafale has superb FBW. The Su-35 isnt a slouch either. Or the EF.

Back in the real world.

The the Su-30 airframe has room for a 0.9-1.1 meter aperture on par with the F-15 and F-22 in terms of volume. The 1,500 element NIIP N036 AESA on the T-50/FGFA has a similar aperture size to the PESA Irbis-E radar in the Su-35 series of fighters. The conclusions are obvious, given the Irbis-E may actually be higher power and the generating eqpt has already been upgraded.

The Russians fielded crosseye jammers with the L005S. Now there is the similar SAP-518. And so it goes.

But the Rafale is sophisticated, its French!! Su-30 is brute.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Double post
Last edited by arthuro on 10 Aug 2015 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Unfortunately the rafale F1 had no sensor fusion, no FSO and issue with its radar. This standard was a stop gap solution to replace f8 crusaders in 1999. Not anymore in service, mothballed since several years. Try something else. Only a dozen F1 manufactured. It takes 18 month to upgrade to current standard to give you a magnitude of the différence.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by brar_w »

So it had nothing of that yet within a year from its deployment the F-15 OPERATIONALIZED the 63(V)2 AESA. Keep that in mind when you go out and speak about wonders of Gallium Nitride and how its going to fundamentally give an edge to the Rafale sometime in the next decade. There are few things that will give you an edge in the 2020+ environment in BVR. Low-Observability, multiple active and passive sensors, new emerging LPI/LPD waveforms or large sensors..or a combination of all. The F-22A, T-50, F-35, and J-20/J-31 all have some or all of these attributes. None carry radars the size of the F-16 even though one of them is its direct replacement. The reason is that an AESA radar is a lot more than just an a2a or a2g radar..Its been demonstrated as an EW aperture, even as a comms link and by some accounts being an integral sensor player in the EW/Cyber domain.
Last edited by brar_w on 10 Aug 2015 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Philip »

The IAF is pushing for a firang fighter,as it is hooked on acquiring firang birds.It just happens to be the Rafale which was evaluated as cheaper than the Eurofarter,not superior!
Rafale was selected over the Eurofighter Typhoon only on the basis of cost after the F-16, F-18, Gripen and MiG-35 were eliminated from competition following flight trials in August 2011.
(full report below).

Remember that both EF and Rafale were shortlisted as both being adequate in performance.Secondly,Russian eqpt. is usually acquired through G-to-G agreemenrts,whereas westren eqpt. is usually through deals made with OEMs.There's plenty of room for freebies and perks. Champagne,cognac,truffles and foie gras for a change from vodka and caviar what!

Having proven itself superior to the 'farter,which was at least the equal of the Rafale,which has now taken a nosedive against the Flanker,where one Flanker got the better of 2 'farters,imagine the fate of one Rafale against 2 Flankers (for the same price)!

DID quote:
The Rafale may, at last, be ready to be what its vendors say: a true omnirole aircraft, ready for prime time on the global export stage. The question is whether it’s too late. Rivals like EADS’ Eurofighter, Russia’s Su-27/30 family, and the American “teen series” of F-15/16/18 variants are all well established. Meanwhile, Saab’s versatile and cheaper JAS-39 Gripen remains a stubborn foe in key export competitions, and the multinational F-35 juggernaut is bearing down on it.

A combination of Thales/SAGEM’s OST Infrared Scan and Track optronics, and MBDA’s MICA IR medium-range missiles, allows the Rafale to supplement its radar-guided missiles with passively-targeted, no-warning attacks on enemy aircraft from beyond visual range. At present, this capability is only duplicated by Russian aircraft: Sukhoi’s SU-27/30 family, and advanced MiG-29s
PS:Here are the real reasons why the Rafale was chosen:
Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... india.html
The Real Reasons for Rafale’s Indian Victory

To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /31159223/
Analysts: India's Fighter Buy Cancellation Hurts Industry, Air Force
By Vivek Raghuvanshi 10:24 a.m. EDT August 9, 2015

NEW DELHI — India's cancelation of a $12 billion program to purchase 126 combat aircraft eliminates an opportunity for domestic industry to build sophisticated aircraft based on transfer of Western technology and once again leaves the Air Force without a plan to rebuild its dwindling fleet, analysts said.

Cancelation of the program, in which Rafale had been down-selected in an open competition in response to a 2007 request for proposal, was a foregone conclusion after Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced during his April 11 visit to Paris his intention to buy 36 Rafales in fly-away condition on a government-to-government basis, analysts said.

An Indian Air Force official, however, said an alternative plan to beef up declining fighter aircraft strength should have been announced alongside the cancelation of the 2007 RFP.

Vivek Rae, former MoD director-general for procurement, said, "The reason the [medium multirole combat aircraft] deal has been canceled is because they are going ahead with the government-to-government route.”

Sitanshu Kar, MoD principal spokesman, refused to comment on the MMRCA tender.
A brief statement by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in India’s Parliament on July 30 put an end to the program but gave no reasons for the cancellation.

"The RFP issued earlier for procurement of 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) has been withdrawn. In this multi-vendor procurement case, the Rafale aircraft met all the performance characteristics stipulated in the Request for Proposal (RFP) during the evaluation conducted by Indian Air Force," the MoD release said.

“The [government-to-government] program to buy 36 Rafales was a separate program to the 2007 RFP under which negotiations were being held with Dassault Aviation and the two programs could not have existed side by side,” said another Indian Air Force official.

Parrikar fueled speculation about the final size of the Rafale order May 31 when he said the French fighters were "way too expensive" and there was no longer a plan to buy a total of 126 Rafales.
The French Defense Ministry and Dassault Aviation were unavailable for comment.

DEFENSE NEWS
India Cancels $12B Combat Jet Program

“Probably this was right from the beginning when 36 Rafale aircraft were ordered that the 126 MMRCA deal would be canceled, otherwise it cannot happen that way," said Fali Major, retired Indian Air Force air chief marshal and former service chief. "I do not know the reason why the 126-MMRCA deal was canceled.”

The end of the 2007 RFP also ended a proposal to build Rafale fighters at India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) on a technology-transfer basis.

Gopal Sutar, HAL spokesman, said the company would not comment on the government decision.

“The decision to cancel the RFP after nearly eight years also puts an end to the proposal to build medium fighter aircraft from the Western world on a transfer of technology basis, which is an opportunity missed,” defense analyst Nitin Mehta said.

An MoD source said that after the Rafale was down-selected in 2012, negotiations ground to a halt as the Indian side demanded French guarantees on delivery of the aircraft to be produced in India by HAL. India and France also could not resolve issues relating to production and cost of the India-made Rafales, which were to have been license-produced by HAL.

An executive from an overseas defense company, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that canceling the RFP runs contrary to the policy of the Modi government to boost Make in India projects.

Meanwhile, negotiations continue for purchase of the 36 Rafales. The MoD source said India is not insisting on fulfillment of 50 percent offset obligations by France in the deal, which France had opposed.

With the initial plan to buy 126 aircraft now reduced to 36 Rafales, the first Air Force official said it is unclear how the MoD will further meet the service's fighter needs.

“The Air Force has a significant shortage of combat aircraft," Srinivasapuram Krishnaswamy, retired Air Force air chief marshal and former service chief, told Defense News. "Numbers are well below those authorized and continue to dwindle as older machines retire. Considering the low rate of induction, the [Air Force] may take more than a decade or two to reach its authorized strength,”

According to a report by a parliamentary panel, released in December, India's fighter aircraft strength is down to 25 squadrons of 18 aircraft each against the required strength of 45 squadrons.

Of those 25 squadrons, 14 are equipped with Russian-made MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighters, which will begin retiring this year through 2024. To fill the gap, the Air Force decided to acquire medium multirole combat aircraft and floated the 2007 RFP.

“As the proposal to acquire 126 Rafales is canceled and replaced with only an intention to buy 36 Rafales, the shortfall in fighters could be met by several options — including producing a single-engine fighter to replace the aging MiG-21, or developing a homemade medium fighter with help from overseas or accelerating the proposed Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft,” Mehta said.

Rafale was selected over the Eurofighter Typhoon only on the basis of cost after the F-16, F-18, Gripen and MiG-35 were eliminated from competition following flight trials in August 2011.
Email: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com
Now that the "cost" of the Rafale has skyrocketed,the key reason for buying it has also gone into the stratosphere!
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

I am sorry but these are external analysis, nothing official.

Officialy, MMRCA was free of politics, the IAF being fully responsible for the technical evaluation.

For the second stage, price was the only driver provided other conditions were met.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by brar_w »

You have to be naïve to think politics plays no role in making high level strategic decisions that carry forward the National interest in a geopolitical context.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

And that's also why MMRCA was canceled to take a gov to gov route. Bureaucrats and technicians lead tender was becoming a white elephant. Politivs had to come back in the game. Lacks of politics was indeed an issue.
Last edited by arthuro on 10 Aug 2015 19:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Cain Marko »

^ Re. V. Raghuvandshi article above... 25 sqds with 14 facing retirement is a bit alarmist. At present, there are around 10 mki sqds, 6 bisons, 3 fulcrum, 3 mirage, 6+ jaguar. That is 28 without looking at any floggers, which at least have two upg sqds that should hang around till the end of this decade. Problem really starts when these and the bisons start retiring.

So, with 4 more mki to come in and 2 tejas mk1 plus 2 rafale to be inducted, I don't see how the strength will fall below 28-30 sqds. Of course, this is well below the sanctioned 39.5 number and sp, there is a shortfall of about 10 sqds that needs to be addressed asap.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Philip »

CM that's exactly the same conclusion I arrived at earlier this year.Around 200 fighter aircraft shortfall and little money to go around for all of the IAF's wants.Tankers,attack helos,heavy helos,IJTs,BTs,AWACS/AEW,etc!
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Cain Marko »

Ideally, it should be the Tejas mk1, but production speed by hal seems to be an issue, hence, I guess all the noise about gripen.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Singha »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaslN1NiT0

le petit sophisticate rafale vs le brute le mechant garcon su30

using superior technique and bvr slashes the rafale wounds the su30 many a time and runs rings around it.
then it comes in close to deliver the killing thrust...and thats when le brute su30 grabs it by the scruff of its elegant neck and crudely hacks it into two.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by arthuro »

Nice one :-)
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by SaiK »

question:

say, we have Rafale's man machine interface on the Ef2k. would the cassadians have won the race for IAF's MMRCA?
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by NRao »

Supposedly it was the cost (L1) that tilted in favor of the Rafale, not so much the techs. ???????

Anyhow, the IAF is clearly inclined towards the Rafale and I think it is a good fit. The problem, as I see it, is "L1" is too expensive.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by brar_w »

@ Saik, the IAF evaluated the aircraft but the mission system evaluations were based on "future year" capability for both the Rafale and the Typhoon. A 2020 export Typhoon can have a lot more capability than what the RAF fields in 2020. For example even in 2015-16 the Saudi's have Paveway IV (Iirc) and the Meteor, while the RAF does not have the latter.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by RoyG »

I think opening up mmrca comp for another 90 is the only way that we can force the french to lower their price for subsequent orders. Buying 36 without follow on batches makes no sense.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Singha »

the comfort factor of dealing with just the french govt might also be a variable. though italy and spain are usually not troublemakers in defence matters, germany is a wild card and has never sold us any significant weapon system .... they pulled stunts like refusing to sell rifles to BSF alleging human rights abuses in kashmir ..... UK is pretty ok and has a long history of defence deals with india.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Austin »

If I am not wrong UK sanctioned us post 1998 test in terms of delaying stuff when we needed and entire seak king fleet was grounded due to want of spares
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:OSF feeds are fully fused in the rafale just like the mica IR sensors. You can find this infrmation in multiple official source (Dassault, Thales, MBDA etc...). This is the first time I saw someone supporting the contrary.
Rafale OSF problems - I'm surprised that this is the first time you've heard something of this sort, especially since four posts above TMor's post is ... your post. :mrgreen:
TMor wrote:Interesting detail...

... due to the OSF IR obsolescence, the data from the IR channel is said not to be merged with those from radar... Both sensors don't work together.

Integration of this IR channel to the whole system had started with standard F2, but the lack of interest in this sensor resulted in an unfinished work.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Viv S »

arthuro wrote:-rafale can also fly with two pilots and two man in the machine is not a panacea : lots of talks and time lost when first time quality information and auto prioritization of threat is much more efficient.
-rafale RCS even with drop tanks will be much lower than Sukhoi.
-by the time the Sukhoi gets its upgrade (which remains to be seen...) the rafale will have gone to the next level : Spectra GaN (2018), conformal radars with GaN (under development - de risking stage - 2025) and radar jamming modes (option for F4 standard)
- The two man crew is relevant in the context of your claim about how Sukhoi pilots start getting dizzy in LFE.
- 'Low observable' fuel tanks? Says who?
- The Su-30MKI is adapting its MLU from the PAK FA.
- However no amount of upgrades will give the Rafale a larger radar antenna. The GaN radar is atm entirely fictional and not part of the F3R offer to India.
As for the swiss eval, even the typhoon anticipated in 2015 was rated inferior to the rafale in the Air to Air role (and every other role for that matter). They said sensor fusion and EW were weak points and that's exactly what I read in 2015 rusi report...hum...

For years you and other said : "it is not representative, it has been upgraded" etc etc...But finally nothing has changed significantly and we are in 2015.
Now some like you are saying "but just wait the next upgrade...I'll promise you this time..."
Are you claiming the upgrades to the DASS in 2011 were 'imaginary'? Unless they had a time machine, the Swiss never evaluated the AESA demonstrator or the upgraded DASS.
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Post by Viv S »

Singha wrote:the comfort factor of dealing with just the french govt might also be a variable. though italy and spain are usually not troublemakers in defence matters, germany is a wild card and has never sold us any significant weapon system .... they pulled stunts like refusing to sell rifles to BSF alleging human rights abuses in kashmir ..... UK is pretty ok and has a long history of defence deals with india.
Well..yes. On the other hand, our inventory of small arms with the military & police forces collectively includes a pretty big stack of MP5s (iced with a fair number of PSG-1s). Plus we issued contracts for design assistance on the Arjun & Dhruv to German firms (with mixed results), and built the U-209 at MDL. Germany also led the EF consortium in its MMRCA bid.
Austin wrote:If I am not wrong UK sanctioned us post 1998 test in terms of delaying stuff when we needed and entire seak king fleet was grounded due to want of spares
It didn't actually. Nor did the Germans AFAIK (though the U-209 deal for two follow-on subs fell through). The Sea King is a Sikorsky aircraft built under license in the UK - large chunk of the spares originated in the US.
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