IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 16 Aug 2015 18:02

When did Astra became American make. The Rafale deal is dead. The thread can be closed.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Aug 2015 19:18

NRao wrote:Wake me up when the F-15 is offered.

It was offered as part of the initial MMRCA. Then Boeing was told it was a 'heavy' not a medium so they offered the F/A-18. Memories have dimmed but it was on the table.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Aug 2015 19:24

ldev wrote:Rafale deal: France says no to offset clause, yes to Make in India

They added the French have instead offered to undertake 'Make in India' initiatives. "The French can look at the option for making Falcon business jets in India or even the Rafales for future besides other projects," the sources said, adding the French government has made it clear that their companies would like to be part of 'Make in India' initiative.

The sources said the offset clause will simply drive up the cost of each aircraft.

It is not just the offset clause that the French are worried about. Indian Air Force wants to integrate a Israeli helmet mounted display with the Rafale fighter jets besides tweaking the weaponry technology so that the aircraft can fire a missile other than what the Rafales carry. The missile, sources said is of American make.

"The changes asked for are not like changing tyres in cars. It takes time, effort and money, all of which will again drive up the cost," the sources said.
I think the French have become confident with Rafale sales to Egypt and Qatar...and are playing hardball with India and leaking this information to the media as this article illustrates.

So what exactly do the French want to make in India?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Aug 2015 19:27

Neither sides wants this to go through. The French want to sell a planes that India does not want and india does not want the plane the French want to sell.

Rest is only useless gravy. Filler material.

Same old story.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Aug 2015 19:30

36 JSF-A is sounding a whole lot better than 36 Rafale.
better stealth, better avionics, better and possibly cheaper weapons, probably similar opex and capex....will stay relevant for next 50 yrs vs 30.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Aug 2015 19:30

SDK kits in India, and perhaps some screw drivers

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Aug 2015 20:01

Cosmo_R wrote:
So what exactly do the French want to make in India?

LOL!!

The French are saying that offsets will increase the cost of the deal.

Which means the French are saying the following:

Without offsets each Rafale is say $200 million.

With 50% offsets (which India is asking), the French will ask for $300 million per Rafale.

Then they will take that extra $100 million per Rafale which India gave them and "invest" it back in India, that investment then owned by the French!! So India will be funding French investments in India via "offsets". Isn't this lunacy?

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Aug 2015 20:15

And before someone comes along and says that why bother with the JSF when the PAK-FA is "around the corner", I would say that when dealing with Russians, if they supply India with a FAK-PA, they will soon enough supply China with a FAK-MA, just as they are supplying China with the SU-35 with the Irbis radar and India the SU-30 with Bars radar. That is if the PAK-FA receives enough funding to actually make it into large scale production.....

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Aug 2015 20:53

Singha wrote:36 JSF-A is sounding a whole lot better than 36 Rafale.
better stealth, better avionics, better and possibly cheaper weapons, probably similar opex and capex....will stay relevant for next 50 yrs vs 30.

Yup, 36 fighters is a sample-sachet quantity for a 30-40+ squadron force like the IAF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Aug 2015 21:28

Yawn ....seen many ups and down on MMRCA and now Rafale , quoting again unnamed sources.....I would rather wait for MOD to make some statement , till then another boring news on Rafale deal

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 16 Aug 2015 21:31

The French are offering to build the Falcon business jets in India (presumably for export).

So, it looks to me that the best deal that France is offering for the 36 is for India is for India to buy the Rafales off the shelf at the same price that the French Air Force pays for them (that price probaly includes the amortization of R&D costs). For the offsets, they will build the Falcon business jets in India in partnership with a private Indian party (Reliance?). France will supply the maintenance and testing equipment for the Rafale for one IAF base. If the IAF wants the same for a second base, it will have to pay extra.

So, it pretty much becomes like an FMS deal with the US.

So, in this situation, an FMS deal with the US for the JSF makes sense to me, if it can be put through quickly.

If the IAF is looking for changes in configuration in the Rafale from what was originally offered, it might as well look at the more contemporary JSF, with all the bells and whistles being offered to the US or Israeli Air Force.

For off-the-shelf 36 planes, without ToT, Rafale does not make sense to me. Might as well get the JSF. The only problem with JSF is that the US will not allow it to be used against Pakistan. But the MKI is sufficient for Pakistan. Use the 36 JSFs against the Chinese.

JMT.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Aug 2015 22:07

If only 36-60 Rafales are to be procured with limited offsets and what not, it makes sense to wait for and get the JSF. It brings more to the table than a Rafale in many key areas.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 16 Aug 2015 22:26

JSF or a US fighter is not an option for political reasons..The only way you can (or may) circumvent that is by securing 100% TOT which in the case for the JSF will not be possible, and in the case of other fighters will be cost-prohibitive and a poor allocation of expenditures. Unless there has been a considerable shift in the G2G comfort level one will not see a major US built offensive weapons system (at least not a fighter) coming through the FMS route.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Aug 2015 23:05

With 60 fighters you wont be putting the bulk of your fighter force at risk, and then you have the AMCA for local R&D, and FGFA for the bulk with TOT.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2015 01:18

brar_w wrote:JSF or a US fighter is not an option for political reasons..The only way you can (or may) circumvent that is by securing 100% TOT which in the case for the JSF will not be possible, and in the case of other fighters will be cost-prohibitive and a poor allocation of expenditures. Unless there has been a considerable shift in the G2G comfort level one will not see a major US built offensive weapons system (at least not a fighter) coming through the FMS route.

"JSF or a US fighter is not an option for political reasons.."

On which side?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Aug 2015 01:30

So per latest news for Rafale
- IAF wants American missile, new HMS, 2 bases as versus 1

None of these are must haves TBH. Astra OTOH should be accommodated.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2015 01:40

Karan M wrote:So per latest news for Rafale
- IAF wants American missile, new HMS, 2 bases as versus 1

None of these are must haves TBH. Astra OTOH should be accommodated.

In another press report (forgot which one), there is no American missile, it is just the Astra and the Israeli HMS is compatible with it. The French apparently don't want to integrate any Indian missile on the basis that the a/c unit costs will go up. This is disingenuous since it makes us totally dependent on their missiles which come at a premium.

I can't believe the French are ignoring the lifeline Modi threw them with a 36 a/c order.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Aug 2015 01:45

The Qatar and Egypt orders have made them sanguine.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 17 Aug 2015 01:50

I had read a report that Dassault had recovered all its R&D expenditure on Rafale from the French Govt, so they are not that keen on exports. Unlike at the time of Mirages, Dassault is not looking for a future in fighter jets market. Rafale will probably be the last military aircraft for them. They are moving towards 100% civil aircraft in their Falcon niche.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 17 Aug 2015 01:55

I will not be surprised if Eurofighter is back in negotiation with GOI. The Germans have deeper pockets than the French and will be able to meet the offset conditions. Also, after the Egypt and Qatar Rafale sales contracts, Eurofighter is very keen on booking new business.

But like the Rafale, the Eurofighter, at least vis a vis China, will not be a game changer i.e. will not be able to give India local air dominance in case of a border war. The JSF will be able to do that.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Aug 2015 01:57

Cosmo_R wrote:
brar_w wrote:JSF or a US fighter is not an option for political reasons..The only way you can (or may) circumvent that is by securing 100% TOT which in the case for the JSF will not be possible, and in the case of other fighters will be cost-prohibitive and a poor allocation of expenditures. Unless there has been a considerable shift in the G2G comfort level one will not see a major US built offensive weapons system (at least not a fighter) coming through the FMS route.
"JSF or a US fighter is not an option for political reasons.."

On which side?

The Indian side..From the US perspective it should not be any problem since the JSF and its technology has already received a blanket export approval, including that for the tooling required to manufactures things like wings and other structures including assembly. Japan, Israel and Turkey are manufacturing structures and/or assembling the aircraft in house.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Aug 2015 02:04

Modi is supposed to meet Obama in September. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Aug 2015 02:28

Cosmo_R wrote:Modi is supposed to meet Obama in September. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

And in Nov MR. Putin.

Also,why not? The Appetizer!!!!

IN

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2015 04:05

a strict no. because 18 is the legal age for desh

.

besides it being a gas guzzler

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 17 Aug 2015 08:27

Karan M wrote:So per latest news for Rafale
- IAF wants American missile, new HMS, 2 bases as versus 1

None of these are must haves TBH. Astra OTOH should be accommodated.

American missiles on the Rafale..what kinda missile JSOW or some other standoff missiles

or just the Laser Guided Bombs

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Aug 2015 08:44

^^^

It would be from the IAF's existing inventory:

HSLD - 250kg and 450kg
Cluster - CBU-105, BL-755
LGBs - Griffin and Paveway-II
ASM - Spice (was integrated on Mirage-2000), AGM-84 Harpoon
Near future - Astra BVR, NGARM, Brahmos-M, FAB-500

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2015 08:54

Its obvious French wont give the same deal for 36 purchase over the cancelled tender for MMRCA.

Offset are pretty much useless for such small deal what would really matter is source code/interface specification for integrating Indian Weapons with Rafale and MRO facility in India. We took really long time to build MRO facility for M2K

Better off to bargain for these two rather then offset etc that just make ADAG richer.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 17 Aug 2015 09:11

The sooner the Rafail deal ends, the better. The IAF should be forced to accept 10 squadrons of the Tejas Mk.II by 2020.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Aug 2015 09:19

Establishing the entire caboodle for trg.,support,spares,weaponry,etc.,just 36 Raffys is meaningless. The cost is going to be a millstone around the neck of the armed forces. The hallmark of a good politico is to be a "good butcher" Mrs.G was one.Similarly,"butcherring" a programme that brings with it less bang for the buck in toto,would be an act of charity. There are several other better cost-effective options,which must be exercised.The Raffy must be "exorcised"! As for the Eurofarter,after the aalleged "12-0" performance,who wants it?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2015 09:45

Mort Walker wrote:The sooner the Rafail deal ends, the better. The IAF should be forced to accept 10 squadrons of the Tejas Mk.II by 2020.

How can you force MK2 10 Squad when FOC for MK2 is expected by 2023. MOD has already put the final purchase number of Tejas at 220

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 10:20

As Few Have Mentioned !! Why Not Super Sukhoi 30 MKI Insted of rafale !! more Advanced Less Price!!

Enhancing potentiality: Super Sukhoi to add punch to IAF
The Sukhoi-30 MKI which is the main stay of IAF fighter fleets will have to undergo upgradation to remain relevant to future air warfare. Although the software is wearing out too fast, the fighter remains a potent combat machine. The IAF’s SU-30 MKIs which look similar to many Sukhoi fighters is significantly different from other SU-30s in terms of capabilities. This time IAF should clearly spell out what it needs in SU-30MKIs by 2020. Often, the upgradation cost of a jet comes pretty close to buying a new one.

Indian Air Force would be significantly enhancing its combat capabilities by upgrading its most formidable SU-30MKI fighters to the approaching level of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which India plans to develop jointly with the Russian Sukhoi company.

The FGFA and Super Sukhoi would thus form a ferocious combination of multi-role aircraft, which can dominate the skies over the neighboring countries and the entire Indian Ocean area. The FGFA is likely to be inducted in the IAF from 2018 and the Super Sukhois would also begin joining the fleet around same time.

The IAF would have almost 270 Sukhoi-30MKIs by 2017 and the IAF Headquarters plans all them to be upgraded to the near fifth generation level and the IAF has decided to name them as Super Sukhoi.

At present, the IAF has a fleet of five squadrons of SU-30MKIs and the rest are being license produced in Indian HAL, almost 10 per year. This will be for the first time that while an aircraft which is still under induction phase will be undergoing significant upgradation in combat capabilities.

The Super-Sukhois would be maximally close to FGFA claimed Alexei I Fedorov who is President and Chairman of the Board of Irkut Corporation, a Russian Joint Stock Company.

In Moscow during the MAKS-2011 Fedorov talked extensively about the modernization of Sukhoi-30 MKI. According to Fedorov, “our cooperation with India is going on very well. We have very good industrial cooperation with HAL.”

“We began our cooperation with MiG-27. Together with HAL we have supplied IAF 165 MIG-27s.As far as Sukhoi-30 MKI is concerned 15 years ago we launched cooperation with HAL under SU-30MKI project. In the beginning it was delivery of aircraft, and then in cooperation with HAL we together started license manufacture. India remains our largest and biggest partner,” he said.

He added if we speak about product line among SU-30MKI family we began the production of combat trainer Yak-130. Now we are developing many large projects of medium range airliner.

The modernization program

At this stage Irkut is presenting cabin mockup, power plant and the wind box. The wing of this aircraft will be made of carbon fibres. According to Fedorov, India will remain Irkut’s largest and biggest partner in future as well.

This is the first such in Russia and not many foreign countries produce such aircrafts. Irkut is the largest flier of aircraft and aviation products in the market.

In response to questions, Fedorov informed that “as far as SU-30MKI is concerned, we have two modernization programs. First is the modernization where the cockpit and all systems would be improved. We are moving in the stage of negotiating technical part.”

He hopes that during this financial year Irkut will conclude the project. It is very large program which is several billion dollars. The second part would be the modernization of the aircraft together with Brahmos air-to-ground supersonic cruise missile program.

Now together with Indian Ministry of Defence we are working out how to share work under the modernization program. What will be done in Russia and in India will be finalized. Fedorov hoped, “this year we will come to conclusion.”

Asked what systems are being proposed, Fedorov declined to give details. But said that we are in negotiation for the upgrading of the entire Sukhoi-30 MKI USD 12 billion project for which the cost has gone up by USD 4 billion.

Under our signed contract, escalation of prices has been included, which is changing. Next year we plan to finalize the development work. After the development work we hope that two year time will be required to finish.

Fedorov revealed that the IAF wants that the new upgraded SU-30 MKIs should be called as Super Sukhoi fighter. Irkut is negotiating to incorporate the AESA radar in the Sukhoi-30MKIs.

Our idea is to modernize the SU-30 MKI to bring it to near 5th generation aircraft capability. At present, we are negotiating the upgradation. He asserted, “we are trying to get SU-30MKI maximally to FGFA.”

First of all, Irkut is modernizing the cockpit for pilots. This is so designed that it will be easier for the pilots to shift to Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft being developed jointly by India and Russia.

The upgraded Super Sukhoi would also have advanced stealth characteristics. The Super Sukhoi can also be equipped with other long range missiles like R-27P (AA-10 D) infrared homing extended range version of 120 km distance.

Besides medium range missiles like R-77 (AA-12) with active radar homing medium range 100 km along with other 80 km medium range missiles can also be added.

At present, the current fleet of Sukhoi-30MKIs in IAF will be upgraded to Super Sukhoi. He expressed confidence that the first Super Sukhoi aircraft will be ready by 2015. First the conversion of initial fleets inducted in the early years of last decade will be undertaken for conversion to Super Sukhoi.

As soon as all the testing is completed the older ones will start getting upgraded. But he refused to answer queries on the costs. But said, “total value will be of several billion dollars. It is difficult to tell you about exact price. SU-30 has good market in South East Asia.”

Export plans

Irkut now plans to export to Malaysia and Indonesia and Algerian Air Forces which will enlarge the order book. Fedorov thus asserted that India will have no role in exporting the SU-30MK aircraft to third country.

In response to a question, Fedorov said that Sukhoi-30 and MiG-35 (offered under MMRCA contract for the IAF) are different aircrafts. SU-30 is a heavy multi role fighter but MiG-35 is a medium fighter.

That is why SU-30 can carry more arms, although technologically they have lot of similarities. In Super Sukhoi, the electronics will be upgraded heavily and the Super Sukhois will carry more weapon loads.

Asked if China has sought the upgradation of the SU-30MKK, Fedorov said that first of all there are basic differences between Indian and Chinese SU-30s as the Power plants do not match. On other counts also the Indian and Chinese SU-30s do not match.

Fedorov revealed that the Super Sukhoi will have same engine as in FGFA. It will enhance the life cycle of SU-30MKIs. However, first aircraft will be upgraded in two years time.

After the contract is signed prototype will be made in Russia after the finalisation of the technical design. When asked if all the 270 SU-30 to be inducted in IAF in the coming years would be upgraded, Fedorov said that, “as far as we know IAF would like to upgrade most of the fleet. Customers want like that.”

Asked about the recent crash of the Sukhoi-30MKI, Fedorov revealed that it was due to pilot error.

Russia would thus be getting another multi billion dollar contract after the almost 30-35 billion dollar deal for the next 20 years from the FGFA project.

Fedorov said that Super Sukhoi program would not be covered under the offset rules of the Indian MoD’s Defence Procurement Procedure, as the upgradation project would be done under an extension of the previous Sukhoi-30 MKI agreement.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2015 10:22

MKI is the back up plan as MOD said it . IF rafale deal does not go through then they would fund more MKI and Tejas Mk2.

though its highly unlikely that would happen in such advanced stage of negotiation and with both PM agreeing to it in principal

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 10:25

http://in.rbth.com/articles/2011/08/23/ ... 12904.html

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 10:28

Austin wrote:MKI is the back up plan as MOD said it . IF rafale deal does not go through then they would fund more MKI and Tejas Mk2.

though its highly unlikely that would happen in such advanced stage of negotiation and with both PM agreeing to it in principal

The Rafale Deal Will Fall or leave a bitter taste on both Sides !! As You Can See Dassault and Mod Up n Downs !! Even PM involved Nothing seems going Right at The Moment, it Will take a Miracle For This Deal To go through Now!

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 10:39

And one Thing French are making bad Name In MoD babu's Circles!! which may effects future Deals like Helicopters!! Subs !! Etc!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Aug 2015 10:47

. But said that we are in negotiation for the upgrading of the entire Sukhoi-30 MKI USD 12 billion project for which the cost has gone up by USD 4 billion.

India has a lot of cows.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 17 Aug 2015 10:49

Speculation mod on.
With passage of each day the final deal is not signed, the chances of rafale not flying in IAF colors seems decreasing to me. This could be a way to facve saver by both sides to move out of the mess that was MMRCA.
Speculation mode off.

While getting Rafale would be good for IAF in short term in stemming the falling numbers, getting more LCA/Su 30s and in 100s is the only way we can think of standing toe to toe with China.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 11:24

NRao wrote:
. But said that we are in negotiation for the upgrading of the entire Sukhoi-30 MKI USD 12 billion project for which the cost has gone up by USD 4 billion.
India has a lot of cows.

still more Cheaper than rafale and mirage upgrades Sir!

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Aug 2015 11:41

NRao wrote:
. But said that we are in negotiation for the upgrading of the entire Sukhoi-30 MKI USD 12 billion project for which the cost has gone up by USD 4 billion.
India has a lot of cows.

And that was the budget initially set aside for MMRCA! By not buying Rafales, India can pour in a lot of funds to the Su-30MKI and LCA programs. Standardize around two platforms: light and heavy. Light LCAs for point air defense and tactical CAS along the border areas; heavy Su-30MKIs for establishing air dominance and striking deep.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 17 Aug 2015 12:00

And that was the budget initially set aside for MMRCA! By not buying Rafales, India can pour in a lot of funds to the Su-30MKI and LCA programs. Standardize around two platforms: light and heavy. Light LCAs for point air defense and tactical CAS along the border areas; heavy Su-30MKIs for establishing air dominance and striking deep.

MMRCA Budget went more than 20 billion + for 126 rafales. diverting funds For LCA & MKI would be best solution avalibale Around.