IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SagarAg » 15 Apr 2016 22:11

Karan M wrote:^^ Understood. Just fed up of seeing the usual suspects attack Indian programs to push their wares like the MiG-35, Gripen NG etc. They'll do anything to run down Indian efforts in their attempts to grease the way for their chosen side.

Make in India ki Jai :)
BTW saw Rafale at Bangaluru Air Show last year. Its a sleek looking bird OTOH SU 30 MKI looked like a mini transport aircraft :lol:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 15 Apr 2016 22:12

Yes but transports a load of trouble for the opponent. :D

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby rajsunder » 15 Apr 2016 22:13

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours ago New Delhi, India

Anyway, so Rafale is happening. Here's my prediction: Rafale will also be license produced in India. HAL Nasik may churn out Su-35S.


Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India

IAF force structure 2022: 80 + HAL Tejas, 36 Rafale, + 310 + SU-30 MKI/Su-35S, 115-120 M2K & Mig-29s, 125 Jaguars, FGFA prototypes.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby GeorgeWelch » 15 Apr 2016 22:15

ShravanP wrote:Yet another report of Rafale deal "Finalized". Now are we sure this one is truly finalized or still pending from another 'banwari''s purse approval?

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/rafale-jet-deal-finalised-by-india-and-france-for-7-8-billion-euros-1395958?pfrom=home-lateststories


India’s much-negotiated deal with France for 36 fighter jets is final – it will buy the French-made Rafale planes for 8.8 billion dollars, said sources to NDTV. The agreement is to be signed within three weeks


I don't think they understand what 'final' means :rotfl:
Last edited by GeorgeWelch on 15 Apr 2016 23:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Apr 2016 22:21

Thing is iaf desperately needs more than just 36 birds...and I simply can't imagine india bring a ble to afford another 100 plus mrca even the cheapest ones...

One hopes that a chaiwala and machiwala were just using the second line thing as a bargaining chip on raffles. 36 units, count losses and move on with 300 lca plus more mki with appropriate spares support

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 15 Apr 2016 22:22

Some poor unkil shills will sure be upset if the Rafale deal occurs.. 2nd blow to H&D after MMRCA loss..:D

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cybaru » 15 Apr 2016 22:29

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours ago New Delhi, India
HAL Nasik may churn out Su-35S.


Seriously WTF? Why do we need another type? The MKI has higher Max takeoff weight than the S. It is also a single seater.

When is the MKI upgrade happening?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby darshhan » 15 Apr 2016 22:38

So 8 bn dollars approx for 36 last gen planes. You can have an independent balochistan for half that amount.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 15 Apr 2016 22:41

^^ :D Now that's some thinking.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 15 Apr 2016 22:43

Austin wrote:Haha don't congrulate us but IAF for getting what they want and MOD for enduring but successful negotiation

I would have but unfortunately I've spent the last few days taking a closer look at PLAAF's modernization program (in the context of the ongoing debate on the India-US thread) and the prospect of spending $9 billion (from a defence budget that's vastly dwarfed by China's) for 36 Rafales horrifies me.

Even Arthuro when asked, didn't have a real response to how this force would fare against its Chinese counterpart, where they'd spend $18 bn on 200 J-10s, and still have another $25 bn+ left over to bolster that with AWACS, tankers, J-20s, HQ-9s & S-400s.

I'd like to celebrate but I think it may be more prudent to go and pray instead. :cry:
Last edited by Viv S on 15 Apr 2016 22:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 15 Apr 2016 22:47

Cain Marko wrote:Thing is iaf desperately needs more than just 36 birds...and I simply can't imagine india bring a ble to afford another 100 plus mrca even the cheapest ones...

One hopes that a chaiwala and machiwala were just using the second line thing as a bargaining chip on raffles. 36 units, count losses and move on with 300 lca plus more mki with appropriate spares support

Exactly. It'd be lunacy to buy both Rafales and Super Hornets. One can only hope the plan for a new production line was a negotiating tactic on Parrikar's part.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nachiket » 15 Apr 2016 23:03

Viv S wrote:Exactly. It'd be lunacy to buy both Rafales and Super Hornets. One can only hope the plan for a new production line was a negotiating tactic on Parrikar's part.

It is quite pointless to buy only 36 aircraft of a completely new type as well. It serves no purpose unless they plan on eventually buying/building more, hoping we'll have more money to spend a few years down the line. Otherwise this purchase will go down as a mind-bogglingly stupid one.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 16 Apr 2016 01:27

so, that is now $9.4 for 36!!

how is that $7.8b.. ??
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 846326.cms

It used to be $12b for 126 MMRCA, and they closed it to $20billion when Modi gov took over.
Last edited by SaiK on 16 Apr 2016 01:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Apr 2016 01:44

Viv S wrote:
Austin wrote:Haha don't congrulate us but IAF for getting what they want and MOD for enduring but successful negotiation

I would have but unfortunately I've spent the last few days taking a closer look at PLAAF's modernization program (in the context of the ongoing debate on the India-US thread) and the prospect of spending $9 billion (from a defence budget that's vastly dwarfed by China's) for 36 Rafales horrifies me.

Even Arthuro when asked, didn't have a real response to how this force would fare against its Chinese counterpart, where they'd spend $18 bn on 200 J-10s, and still have another $25 bn+ left over to bolster that with AWACS, tankers, J-20s, HQ-9s & S-400s.

I'd like to celebrate but I think it may be more prudent to go and pray instead. :cry:


Re. China's fifth gen threat, I think a robust ADS is India's interim answer until the fgfa pakfa amca come through...expect some more mki and s400 siphon enough.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_28756 » 16 Apr 2016 05:30

nachiket wrote:
Viv S wrote:Exactly. It'd be lunacy to buy both Rafales and Super Hornets. One can only hope the plan for a new production line was a negotiating tactic on Parrikar's part.

It is quite pointless to buy only 36 aircraft of a completely new type as well. It serves no purpose unless they plan on eventually buying/building more, hoping we'll have more money to spend a few years down the line. Otherwise this purchase will go down as a mind-bogglingly stupid one.

Where do you think the money is going to come from ? Look at how hard and long it took to negotiate for 36 and few years down the road is it worth it spend billions more on aircraft that is not even 5th gen.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_20292 » 16 Apr 2016 05:41

BTW - these birds will be suitably modified to deliver wmds , IMO

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 16 Apr 2016 05:41

SaiK wrote:so, that is now $9.4 for 36!!

how is that $7.8b.. ??
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 846326.cms

It used to be $12b for 126 MMRCA, and they closed it to $20billion when Modi gov took over.


Its paid news.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 16 Apr 2016 05:45

Cain Marko wrote:
Re. China's fifth gen threat, I think a robust ADS is India's interim answer until the fgfa pakfa amca come through...expect some more mki and s400 siphon enough.


China won't acquire 5th generation overnight so there is time. Their overall modernization in all spheres of aerial combat is obviously more important and critical, but as far as capability is concerned there is little doubt in the rafale's capability. It is an excellent multi-role fighter and that was what the IAF asked for.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_22539 » 16 Apr 2016 06:28

Look at the bright side. Now that Rafale is here, no more nonsense from Gripen, F-16 and F-18. Furthermore, the Rafale is so expensive that the IAF ain't going to have many of them. All in all, good news for the LCA.

This might end up being an Urvashi's Curse.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 07:03

SaiK wrote:so, that is now $9.4 for 36!!

how is that $7.8b.. ??
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 846326.cms


No that's fine (conversion rate is just a bit off). The deal is being negotiated in Euros.

The figure reported is EUR 7.9 billion.

€7.9 bn = $9 bn (approx)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 16 Apr 2016 07:04

With Su 35 being called 4.75 gen we still have scope to develop from 4.51 to 4.99 gen.

Even 5th gen is becoming fuzzy - with "must haves" like supercruise being removed from the essentials list along with aerodynamically inconvenient "all aspect" stealth being replaced by directional stealth in areas where it is most likely be useful

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 07:41

Cain Marko wrote:Re. China's fifth gen threat, I think a robust ADS is India's interim answer until the fgfa pakfa amca come through...expect some more mki and s400 siphon enough.

brar_w wrote:China won't acquire 5th generation overnight so there is time. Their overall modernization in all spheres of aerial combat is obviously more important and critical, but as far as capability is concerned there is little doubt in the rafale's capability. It is an excellent multi-role fighter and that was what the IAF asked for.


Actually given that the J-20 just went into serial production late last year, service entry isn't very far off frankly, especially given the resources available to the program. It'll probably IOC before the Rafale deliveries conclude IMO.

But that aside, there's still the numbers issue; the J-10Bs & J-11Ds (supplemented by JH-7Bs) may only confer 75% of the Rafale's capability but they're being built at a staggering rate (36/yr+ for the J-10 alone).
Last edited by Viv S on 16 Apr 2016 07:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_27581 » 16 Apr 2016 07:43

Viv S wrote:I'd like to celebrate but I think it may be more prudent to go and pray instead.

Pray what sir?
1. pray that this another rumour, (who knows we might be playing now against americans too)
2. or if true, then significant ToT and no other type of faaiter no 16 17, 18 ..only Tejas
3. or no further Rafale orders
4. or the best of worlds..that our economy grows 10% for next 30 years so that we can have 16, 17 18 +rafale and if some space for tejas too

This MMRCA can give a run to Ekta Kapoor serials (never ending, dead people coming back)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 07:45

ranjan.rao wrote:Pray what sir?

Pray that we're never forced to test those odds in war. All the rest too for that matter.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2016 08:01

War with China is low probability but we need to cater to that with effective nuclear deterrence and conventional long range cruise missile .

NDTV mentioned offset involves military product including stealth technology and electronics.

They mention India specific electronic but that means hardwiring Rafale for nuclear role.

In the end MOD did quite well to keep negotiation under tight wrap , every tom dick harry , Rahul bedi , defence analyst were coming to their own conclusion on how bad state the negotiation were and how this was in immenent collapse having no idea where mod was in nego stage.

Parikar himself did not give away much and used pressure tactics well.

All vendor smelt something was wrong and pitched in.

Congratulation to MOD for keeping it beyond media nonsense and playing the game well.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2016 08:04

shiv wrote:With Su 35 being called 4.75 gen we still have scope to develop from 4.51 to 4.99 gen.


:rotfl: :rotfl:

Seriously though develop Tejas mk3 to 4.88 standard with CFT , IRST , MAWS , DIRCM , GE 414 ,AESA, Sensor Fusion/Netcentricity

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_27581 » 16 Apr 2016 08:13

not sure if it has been posted here but ..IDRW (express news service) reporting that the plane coming without some bells and whistles

http://idrw.org/rafale-jets-clinched-at-targeted-rate-but-built-in-features-compromised/

Sources said though France compromised, the IAF may not be able to get the desired weapons and radar systems in the reduced cost. According to a top Ministry of Defence official privy to the development, India was set on clinching the deal for 36 Rafale jets at Rs 65-68,000 crores. However, on the other side, Dassault, which manufactures the aircraft quoted a whopping figure of the nearly 90,000 crore.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_27581 » 16 Apr 2016 08:19

Austin wrote:War with China is low probability but we need to cater to that with effective nuclear deterrence and conventional long range cruise missile .


Off topic...but austin sir, I would not count upon the low probability but more on the second part of ur comment, so that we should keep our powder dry...China has the capability of throwing up surprises.
India is the best punching bag they can get,
1. large ...yet not standing up to it's heft both politically and militarily..
2. hitting any other smaller nation will bring up the accusation of bullying and will involve bigger players
3. they will have active/passive support from porkis unlike any other nation

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 16 Apr 2016 08:55

ranjan.rao wrote:not sure if it has been posted here but ..IDRW (express news service) reporting that the plane coming without some bells and whistles

http://idrw.org/rafale-jets-clinched-at-targeted-rate-but-built-in-features-compromised/

Sources said though France compromised, the IAF may not be able to get the desired weapons and radar systems in the reduced cost. According to a top Ministry of Defence official privy to the development, India was set on clinching the deal for 36 Rafale jets at Rs 65-68,000 crores. However, on the other side, Dassault, which manufactures the aircraft quoted a whopping figure of the nearly 90,000 crore.


Maybe they are supplying the RBE2 PESA radar which was on the original aircraft that took part in the MMRCA trials. The French might say, "You want the original price, you better take the original equipment", i.e. equipment as of 2010. Maybe no AESA radar?? For $250 million a pop, if it is without AESA radar, it's one heck of a deal......for the French :P

And probably also without the Meteor and SCALP.....hopefully it at least has SPECTRA....otherwise it's a dead duck.
Last edited by ldev on 16 Apr 2016 09:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 09:04

Austin wrote:War with China is low probability but we need to cater to that with effective nuclear deterrence and conventional long range cruise missile.

I imagine Pakistan, possessing both effective nuclear deterrence and conventional long range cruise missile, is thinking much the same thing.

Unfortunately, nuclear weapons are always a last resort, unless you wish to risk precipitating a MAD scenario. And conventional cruise missiles are just single-use UAVs with an explosive payload. With good network of aerial sensors (AWACS + aerostats + low level radar) linked in with well dispersed cost effective SAM units, intercepting them is not an exceptionally challenging task.

(During the 1973 Yom Kippur war, the Egyptian Air Force Tu-16s launched 25 KSR-2 cruise missiles at Israel. Israeli Mirages intercepted and destroyed 20 of them.)

They mention India specific electronic but that means hardwiring Rafale for nuclear role.

A more likely but prosaic explanation is the required integration of Indian datalinks, comms & IFF modules.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 09:06

ldev wrote:Maybe they are supplying the RBE2 PESA radar which was on the original aircraft that took part in the MMRCA trials. The French might say, "You want the original price, you better take the original equipment", i.e. equipment as of 2010. Maybe no AESA radar?? For $250 million a pop, if it is without AESA radar, it's one heck of a deal......for the French :P

Actually they did bring the AESA along for the MMRCA trials (had to; the PESA's range is rather underwhelming - well out-ranged by the Mirage's RBE-2).

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_20292 » 16 Apr 2016 09:12

1. The Rafale cost to India seems similar to that we found when we bought the Mirages originally.

2. 20 years after the Mirage acquisition, we still found them good for Kargil and we have found them to be so good .that we are spending a very large sum of money for their upgrade. Now Rafale is again being spent on..

What do we get with the French this time around that can't be bought for love/money spent on DRDO or the Americans ?

sensors can be bought off the shelf from our friends. integration is tough though!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby DexterM » 16 Apr 2016 09:41

>>Otherwise this purchase will go down as a mind-bogglingly stupid one.
Whether we buy 36 or license more, it would be a stupid deal! We are unable to spend a fraction of this on core items such as engine development or other TD programs, but are happy to keep funding any gora programs that turn up with Katrina or Natasha posters.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RKumar » 16 Apr 2016 09:58

Sad, we dont know when to walk away from a bad deal. It is like PM gave a personal word so we have to sign the deal. It is nothing personal, it is a direct buy with no new production line. It was required 10 years back due to

- no clear status of LCA - technology, maturaity and production.
- we had no reliable noclear delivery platform

There are no such issues today. We have alternatives and should use them. We fall again n again in the trap of delay tactic by western world and we still pay the premium price for old configuration. We as a nation dont learn from our past mistake, really shameful deal.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2016 10:05

ranjan.rao wrote:Off topic...but austin sir, I would not count upon the low probability but more on the second part of ur comment, so that we should keep our powder dry...China has the capability of throwing up surprises.
India is the best punching bag they can get,
1. large ...yet not standing up to it's heft both politically and militarily..
2. hitting any other smaller nation will bring up the accusation of bullying and will involve bigger players
3. they will have active/passive support from porkis unlike any other nation


My Do Rupiya and last word on this

China is a strategic level player and like India it believes in economic growth and rise of Asia as logical thing to happen this century replacing the West due to sustained growth and large population.

To deal with strategic player we need strategic asset to deter like MIRvd Agni-5 , SSBN , Nuclear capable Rafale n FGFA and nuclear long range cruise missile with 3000 km range and warhead in range of 500-600 , the balance of terror should exist between two strategic but rising players at same time we need economic and strategic cooperation via SCO , BRICS and Asian Bank to gain from each other

With Harami and Lunatic player with Jihadi sucidal mentality like Paki backed by Saudi jihadi funds, US and China having a long history of killing military and civilians in India in thousands via terrorism we need overwhelming conventional and nuclear superiority and most important the will to use it proactively and not be reactive and docile all the time

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 10:31

Austin wrote:To deal with strategic player we need strategic asset to deter like MIRvd Agni-5 , SSBN , Nuclear capable Rafale n FGFA and nuclear long range cruise missile with 3000 km range and warhead in range of 500-600 , the balance of terror should exist between two strategic but rising players at same time we need economic and strategic cooperation via SCO , BRICS and Asian Bank to gain from each other

Nuclear weapons only secure our territorial integrity and deter a first strike by a hostile nuclear power. They don't influence the course of a conventional clash, particularly in the air or at sea.

With Harami and Lunatic player with Jihadi sucidal mentality like Paki backed by Saudi jihadi funds, US and China having a long history of killing military and civilians in India in thousands via terrorism we need overwhelming conventional and nuclear superiority and most important the will to use it proactively and not be reactive and docile all the time

Against China, we've got neither. And given that the Chinese military generally receives a better return on its capital (including imports; $2bn for 24 Su-35s), the financial consequences of this purchase will, in fact, exacerbate the conventional military imbalance between the two countries.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Apr 2016 10:33

Viv S wrote:[
brar_w wrote:China won't acquire 5th generation overnight so there is time. Their overall modernization in all spheres of aerial combat is obviously more important and critical, but as far as capability is concerned there is little doubt in the rafale's capability. It is an excellent multi-role fighter and that was what the IAF asked for.


Actually given that the J-20 just went into serial production late last year, service entry isn't very far off frankly, especially given the resources available to the program. It'll probably IOC before the Rafale deliveries conclude IMO.

But that aside, there's still the numbers issue; the J-10Bs & J-11Ds (supplemented by JH-7Bs) may only confer 75% of the Rafale's capability but they're being built at a staggering rate (36/yr+ for the J-10 alone).


Viv, you make a good point. I remember it was quite the shock to see how fast they put the j10 into large production numbers...all we were used to was some yellow primed protos here and there and then all of a sudden there was a squadron flying around.Not saying that these will be entirely fault free...but if the j20 is anywhere close to gen 5 ala raptor or even better than ecanards in critical parameters, plus close to production, does not make for fuzzy feeling.

Dunno what 36 raffles will do other than allowing India to close this damned circus and move on to more important and urgent acquisitions.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Apr 2016 10:42

Frankly though, India simply can't compete with the Sino, pak, US combine with numbers. They need to pick a page from russki book post yeltsin, and start paalishing missiles...the message should be clear visavis China, make it hard for us and be prepared for MAD...they can forget all fancy world power dreams...cheap and doable strategy that guarantees non interference....suddenly give out some crazy warhead numbers and support mating and weaponization policy of all China centric missiles..agni series etal..

We might see sudden support from dragon against scum like masood azhar

In the meanwhile get the lca up and running in numbers along with layered air defence network

Problem is, they are trying to follow uber massa tftaness on dal roti diet...slow, always playing catch up, piecemeal purchasing, ultimately under nourished and utterly frustrating.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2016 11:12

Viv S wrote:Nuclear weapons only secure our territorial integrity and deter a first strike by a hostile nuclear power. They don't influence the course of a conventional clash, particularly in the air or at sea.hi


They do else we would have seen many air and sea clash between major nuclear power , nuclear deterrent is a great tool to prevent any war , I am advocating MAD against China who is a major strategic but rational player

Against China, we've got neither. And given that the Chinese military generally receives a better return on its capital (including imports; $2bn for 24 Su-35s), the financial consequences of this purchase will, in fact, exacerbate the conventional military imbalance between the two countries.


We are building serious nuclear capability and first strike weapon like MIRV A-5 and K-4 against China ,ssbn and other program plus ABM.

We need to know enrich enough Pu to build 500-600 nuclear weapons

This capability will take time to develop and seen but by 2025 we will have full spectrum nuclear capability against China, the way I see it

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 16 Apr 2016 11:31

Austin wrote:They do else we would have seen many air and sea clash between major nuclear power , nuclear deterrent is a great tool to prevent any war , I am advocating MAD against China who is a major strategic but rational player

We are building serious nuclear capability and first strike weapon like MIRV A-5 and K-4 against China ,ssbn and other program plus ABM.

We need to know enrich enough Pu to build 500-600 nuclear weapons

This capability will take time to develop and seen but by 2025 we will have full spectrum nuclear capability against China, the way I see it

And Pakistan advocates MAD against us (nullifying our conventional advantages). MAD all around. So what purpose do conventional arms serve, if there's no space between a show-of-strength and an all-out nuclear exchange?

We've got the Agnis and we've got more of the Arihants coming in. So why not invest the billions we're putting into conventional arms (not just the Rafale), into some socially productive avenues instead, like infrastructure and education for example?


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