IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Apr 2016 23:01

sohels wrote:Stuff I stumbled upon on other forums:

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...
Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
its officially 36 flyaway
90 make in India tranche 1
Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
Expect deal announcement soon..
The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
Bankers are confirmed...
The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..
Source: http://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafa ... z4641K5Yjq

Le 14 April 2016 à 3:46 AM, Darkjmfr a dit :
They were reportedly promised PAN and SNA? it will be interesting to see where do the plans.
It's Thales who made the plans of the aircraft carrier English, with corrections DCNS ...
But it seems that it would be 6 SNA and a new generation SSBN. DCNS have a say for IAC2 but the Indians want to see if the US is able to cooperate on this.
Source: https://translate.google.co.in/translat ... page%3D419

Does any of this make sense / seem credible?

Sounds like the russian/israeli/Arjun will come in 500 number guy who used to have inside info on BR eons back or posed as a dealer with inside info. The name escapes me right now.. but maybe Karan remembers...

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Apr 2016 23:07

ldev wrote: IMO, India would like US help for aircraft carrier design and launch technology, so maybe it could be US help for design and EMAL technology with French help for nuclear propulsion if the Indian Navy decides to go the nuclear propulsion route for it's large carriers.

In my opinion it will end up regular steam cats for now. EMALS stuff is not done yet and the cost seems to be unknown or will know once done types. Once they get second EMALS, they will be able to give a better accurate number towards its cost.

The [US] Navy also released a $737 million contract to General Atomics on Friday for procurement of long lead materials for the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) and Advanced Arresting Gear (AAG).

“Everyone knows we had some significant cost overruns on EMALS and AAG,” Moore said.
“I think what you’ll find on CVN-79 is we’ve gotten that cost under control.”

https://news.usni.org/2015/06/15/navy-c ... rther-cost

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 17 Apr 2016 23:26

EMALS and particularly AAG lead up cost growth was there because the contracts were for development, integration, testing and procurement. With most of the EMALS testing on the ground having concluded successfully, and the carrier expected to be handed over to the crew shortly there is little in terms of long term ' cost' risk of encountering unknown cost increases that remain. The Carrier discussion underway is for delivery of a new carrier in the next decade so there is plenty of time for EMALS to further rack up real world usage.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Apr 2016 23:41

So the second line will be Rafale?
IAF will have three birds
300 Su-30 MKI
300 LCA of different Marks and then some NLCAs
? 200 Rafales and then some Marine versions totalling some 300
Not a bad number or combination of jets - but lots of twin engine fuel guzzling planes (600 of them!)

The french will codevelop SSN with french electronics, quietening and N powerplant.
Powerplant for the 65K carrier which may or may not have American EMALS

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Apr 2016 00:09

^ Yes, this seems to be the current direction of breeze, but overall we don't know exact direction of westerlies just yet. Still,

300 MKI
300 LCA
200 Rafale
126 FGFA
126 AMCA

Would line up nicely to the 55 sqd desired. Ideally, that Rafale figure might have been mitigated with an indigenous solution - but not without losses in time and morale to the IAF.

The Rafale should have been imh fantasy - a twin engined LCA with a similar development cycle and strategy followed by Dassault for the M4000. This would have mitigated the thrust issues on the LCA. Mk1 AMCA = 11 hardpoints, 5000kg internal fuel weight, 10 ton empty, payload of 6500-7000kg, conformal carriage of weapons ala EF2000, Uttam AESA or even El 2052 for initial batches, internal EW suite. Deliverable - 2025. All of this was very doable considering the experience via the LCA.

In time this could have been improved upon iteratively....

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Apr 2016 00:25

Cybaru wrote:Sounds like the russian/israeli/Arjun will come in 500 number guy who used to have inside info on BR eons back or posed as a dealer with inside info. The name escapes me right now.. but maybe Karan remembers...

Enaiel??

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Apr 2016 01:34

Is EMALS a hard thing to do?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2016 01:54

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:^^ You are again applying your logic to an expansionist power which has been doing everything opposite to what you say.

Nuclear weapons are merely a final arbiter - why/how can India use them if the war remains conventional? Will India agree to use nukes if PRC takes over NE and is India prepared to lose all its metros in turn? PRC can wage war conventionally and merely brandish nukes to deter us.
Look if PRC decides to attack India and occupy major part NE and we cant make a counter movement into their territory inspite of Nuclear deterrence then primarily MAD has failed to prevent a major war.

India will have no choice but to use tactical nuclear weapons on the troops of PRC at selective places near PRC border to nullify the advantage and present it with little choice , either risk full scale nuclear war in which china will have to loose exponentially far more or leave the occupied area and come to peace treaty. Not doing that would mean PRC will be bolden to move deep into India or even use Nuke to achieve its goal.

Its all about how we act/react to it then what they do , If we are docile and supplicant with 26/11 like approach of sending letters to 118 countries then not even God can help us and no one will respect us for that.

Austin, India has a NFU policy.
Assume, PRC manages to make deep inroads into NE. IA and services have hit PRC hard etc but again we need time to counterattack. In the meantime, will you use nukes on China to get China out of NE?

So your claims are unfortunately wishful since India has no strategy of FU and even/or proven tactical nuclear weapons to use in tactical warfighting.
When was the last time we practised nuke warfighting (as versus war under NBC conditions).

When did India announce any strike on its territory by a superior conventional power will be responded to by nukes.

So agnis et al are for dissuasion but are worth zilch in a conventional conflict.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2016 02:11

Cybaru wrote:Sounds like the russian/israeli/Arjun will come in 500 number guy who used to have inside info on BR eons back or posed as a dealer with inside info. The name escapes me right now.. but maybe Karan remembers...

denil you mean.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Apr 2016 02:16

Karan M wrote:
Austin wrote: Look if PRC decides to attack India and occupy major part NE and we cant make a counter movement into their territory inspite of Nuclear deterrence then primarily MAD has failed to prevent a major war.

India will have no choice but to use tactical nuclear weapons on the troops of PRC at selective places near PRC border to nullify the advantage and present it with little choice , either risk full scale nuclear war in which china will have to loose exponentially far more or leave the occupied area and come to peace treaty. Not doing that would mean PRC will be bolden to move deep into India or even use Nuke to achieve its goal.

Its all about how we act/react to it then what they do , If we are docile and supplicant with 26/11 like approach of sending letters to 118 countries then not even God can help us and no one will respect us for that.
Austin, India has a NFU policy.
Assume, PRC manages to make deep inroads into NE. IA and services have hit PRC hard etc but again we need time to counterattack. In the meantime, will you use nukes on China to get China out of NE?

So your claims are unfortunately wishful since India has no strategy of FU and even/or proven tactical nuclear weapons to use in tactical warfighting.
When was the last time we practised nuke warfighting (as versus war under NBC conditions).

When did India announce any strike on its territory by a superior conventional power will be responded to by nukes.

So agnis et al are for dissuasion but are worth zilch in a conventional conflict.

Here is a video for lucid understanding of the situation....

[youtube]https://youtu.be/IX_d_vMKswE[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Apr 2016 02:21

Cybaru wrote:
In my opinion it will end up regular steam cats for now. EMALS stuff is not done yet and the cost seems to be unknown or will know once done types. Once they get second EMALS, they will be able to give a better accurate number towards its cost.

Supposedly the IN does not need the rate at which EMALS launches planes. So, the RoI I suspect is to low - not worth the cost.

There was also a mention of "F-18". Not too sure if it meant that EMALS meant F-18 for the IN, but that is a distinct possibility - the expectation.

With the supposed Rafale news, will need to wait and see how things settle. I just do not think Modi is treating the situation as a zero sum game.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Apr 2016 02:31

The 36 flyaway Raffys will begin delivery mid 2019 and finish by 2022, and the reality is that Dassault will be busy with other orders and cant' do any meaningful technology transfer to India before 2020. You can not build up experience overnight on any given platform as it takes years. In the mean time if India's economy declines, any further Raffys will be delayed since they are so expensive.

Russia is facing a resource crunch and more than likely it will be 2030 (13 years from now) before FGFA are delivered in any significant number. Boeing will wind down Superhornet production by end of Fiscal 2019 as there won't be enough orders to keep the St. Louis plant economically viable as the F-15 sale to Korea and Israel will also have been completed by then which are made at the same factory. Even if the IAF and GoI wanted the SH, they won't get them and it will be a similar situation like the C-17 delays.

Now, at the rate the IAF is going, it will lose 12-15 combat aircraft a year due to lack of spares, unsustainable airframes, and unfortunately accidents. By 2020 the Chinese will have perfected the engines for their Su-27s and JF-17s which will be stamped out like fortune cookies and given/sold to Pak, BD and SL by the bushel.

THERE IS ONLY ONE SOLUTION TO HAVE A QUALITATIVE AND QUANTITATIVE ADVANTAGE FOR THE SECURITY OF INDIA. BE INDEPENDENT OF FOREIGN SUPPLIERS, CONSERVE HARD EARNED FOREX, AND GROW A DOMESTIC AEROSPACE INDUSTRY. THAT IS THE PRODUCTION OF AT LEAST 1000 LCA TEJAS IN ITS CURRENT FORM. ALL OTHER SOLUTIONS ARE NOT VIABLE IN THE LONG RUN.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Apr 2016 02:38

Karan M wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Sounds like the russian/israeli/Arjun will come in 500 number guy who used to have inside info on BR eons back or posed as a dealer with inside info. The name escapes me right now.. but maybe Karan remembers...
denil you mean.

YES!!!

Cain was almost there!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Apr 2016 02:46

Damn! Age catches up with us all...

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 18 Apr 2016 04:35

Karan M wrote:Austin, India has a NFU policy.

Isn't that applicable to non-nuclear weapon states states only? As was emphasised by former NSA Menon in 2010?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2016 08:31

nobody touches amrika in naval reactors. the S9G in Virginia is designed to operate entire life of sub 30 years without refueling.
the british RR PWR2 Core-H also claims to have full-life core.

the French K15 on the barracuda and troimphant class has a 10 yr cycle.

I am kind of doubting the western cabal will allow any transfer of naval reactor tech because that will power our SSBNs also, but other areas French might be willing to play ball. the quietness of the powerplant is a factor in detectability and its against western interests to have our subs become quieter. not transferring this tech to India may also be a CBM by the west with china.

the rubis, barracuda, scorpene all have the same silhouette looking from the side.

nice size comparison of the scorpenes and the barracuda
http://s161.photobucket.com/user/rewrew ... 2.gif.html

we can probably expect 8-12 sub caliber VLs inside 2-3 huge big tubes behind the sail...mostly for brahmos/nirbhay and the usual 25-30 heavy torpedoes/mines/klubs in torpedo room. a 150MW reactor on a arihant size sub will give a speed of 30+ knots to sprint into position, long transits or outrun torpedoes.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Apr 2016 10:21

For outrunning torpedoes, IN doesnt have to depend on a second reactor idea. It can do a combination of NICD and nuclear. You can put about 4 MW today in a 22 foot container. Used to be 500 KW in 2008 and the 2MW systems are supplied by many vendors. The higher densities are made to oder, but doable. This is going to go up pretty soon.

In another 4-5 years, for sub of the future assuming 2-4 Container sized rooms as backup power can easily hold 20-40 MW of energy. This density will get better and better as time goes by. IN should dump all the lead acid batteries as they have higher weight penalties. Every time we need to replace, we will be able to add almost twice the power the sub previously had.

The reactor can always keep topping up the battery when there is spare energy available ( which is probably most of the time ).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2016 10:52

cheaper too for sure, than a extra reactor or a bigger one. but might not be as compact soln as simply a bigger reactor.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Apr 2016 10:59

.you need a 300 ton plug for adding aip. What does it produce? 300kW?? Imagine that 10-15 meter area full of battery..

How much space will a second reactor take?

A scorpene ( barracuda) without reactor is 2000 tons lighter. Rule of thumb 2k tons per reactor? How many MWs can you load in 2000 tons? How many hours do you need sustained 30 knot through put? If this covers 95% of your needs is this not good enough?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Apr 2016 11:11

Rafale thread people. Rafale. Rafallay.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Apr 2016 11:35

Robbery in coastal waters! Raffaly!!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Apr 2016 12:22

Robbery? No way. The wallet was in the pocket with a hole. Just dropped it somewhere. Wait! What? I found a ticket and it is...

...my (D)assault Raffle ticket which says some 8 Billion Euros

. Where can I cash it? My number matches - 36. Lottery lag gayi bhai logon. Some Dom Perignon on the Champs Elysee for a bright and tipsy "Evening in Paris" - hic!

. After that we can walk with an Offset looking at the Eiffel tower in French colours paid in Indian money.

Oh wait! Its not confirmed yet.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 18 Apr 2016 15:59

It does look overpriced even at this price. Even if the price is closer to what the MoD wants, am sure Dassault will take us to the cleaners during mid-life upgrades. Lets hope the powers that be know what they are doing

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Apr 2016 17:55

NRao wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
In my opinion it will end up regular steam cats for now. EMALS stuff is not done yet and the cost seems to be unknown or will know once done types. Once they get second EMALS, they will be able to give a better accurate number towards its cost.
Supposedly the IN does not need the rate at which EMALS launches planes. So, the RoI I suspect is to low - not worth the cost.

There was also a mention of "F-18". Not too sure if it meant that EMALS meant F-18 for the IN, but that is a distinct possibility - the expectation.

With the supposed Rafale news, will need to wait and see how things settle. I just do not think Modi is treating the situation as a zero sum game.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p2007237

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 18 Apr 2016 19:10

deejay wrote:Robbery? No way. The wallet was in the pocket with a hole. Just dropped it somewhere. Wait! What? I found a ticket and it is...

...my (D)assault Raffle ticket which says some 8 Billion Euros . Where can I cash it? My number matches - 36. Lottery lag gayi bhai logon. Some Dom Perignon on the Champs Elysee for a bright and tipsy "Evening in Paris" - hic! . After that we can walk with an Offset looking at the Eiffel tower in French colours paid in Indian money.

Oh wait! Its not confirmed yet.

I'll only believe it when Hemant Kumar Rout says it's true.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 18 Apr 2016 20:19

If this information about the 36 Rafale buy going on eventually to a 300 Rafale MII buy is accurate, it is purely a strategic decision by the Modi Government. It begins with the fundamental premise that the DPSU's are incapable of catapulting India to technology levels that GOI thinks are needed at least within the forseeable future. (I am sure that DPSU defenders will say that only if the DPSUs had more money thrown at them, then all would have been well) Therefore what is required is "directed" private sector participation so as to leverage India's buying power. If the strategic premise is accurate, then it includes military as well as economic aspects.

Purely from a bang for the buck perspective the US fighters lead the pack, both in terms of value, delivery and PGM options. But as the "leak" suggest, then what? The US will never part with the crown jewels of it's naval programs to any other country, let alone India. So if GOI's objective is to leverage buying power into getting TOT for naval reactors etc. then the US is a non starter. What the US would like from India is a close strategic embrace which India is not willing to agree to, at least the kind of overt strategic relationship the US wants and even if India gives in to that, the US will not part with reactor technology.

India is already far too dependent on Russia for too many of it's critical arms. With the confrontation that the West has with Putin, any closer Russian embrace could get India caught in the crossfire. And I think that for Modi, growing the Indian economy is of paramount importance. If India were to ask the Russians for the latest reactor technology, while it may be forthcoming from them, the price that the Russians in turn will ask in terms of an overt strategic embrace, pretty similar to the US, is something that India will not want at the present time.

The Gripen is a non starter from a strategic viewpoint.

So that leaves the French. The downside is the sky high prices of French products. The upside is that there is a quid pro quo that India can provide them i.e. large enough Indian orders and the strategic promise of more on an ongoing basis. These orders (both from France as well as Indo-French joint ventures under the MII) will enable the French to retain the military autonomy that they so pride while yet being part of the Western alliance. Also while a closer Russian embrace will make the US see red, a close India-France alliance is something that the US can live with. In fact, given that the Rafale can operate off the large US aircraft carriers, the much desired "inter operability" that the US wants with India is something entirely possible in the future if India buys the Rafale in large numbers. So while form the US perspective, it's companies such as Boeing and LM will have lost out on some business, from a larger strategic perspective it's an acceptable outcome.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Apr 2016 20:24

Where is Arthuro?

Added Later:
Idev ji. Mostly agree with what you say but can't seem to digest 300 Rafale's.

Where will we keep so many fighters? We don't have so many hangars

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2016 20:24

>>>If this information about the 36 Rafale buy going on eventually to a 300 Rafale MII buy is accurate, it is purely a strategic decision by the Modi Government. It begins with the fundamental premise that the DPSU's are incapable of catapulting India to technology levels that GOI thinks are needed at least within the forseeable future. (I am sure that DPSU defenders will say that only if the DPSUs had more money thrown at them, then all would have been well) Therefore what is required is "directed" private sector participation so as to leverage India's buying power. If the strategic premise is accurate, then it includes military as well as economic aspects.

And if HAL is chosen to make those 300 Rafales, your fundamental premise will be.. fundamentally incorrect.

Your entire edifice of argumentation is built around sketchy internet reports of 300 Rafales.

When we have been struggling to agree to a price for 36. And on that, you are making all sorts of conclusions which are all directed towards predestined conclusions, none of which are backed up entirely by facts (as if what the US can live with, is something the GOI is fundamentally obsessed with vis a vis the MMRCA).

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 18 Apr 2016 20:28

Karan M wrote:>>>If this information about the 36 Rafale buy going on eventually to a 300 Rafale MII buy is accurate, it is purely a strategic decision by the Modi Government. It begins with the fundamental premise that the DPSU's are incapable of catapulting India to technology levels that GOI thinks are needed at least within the forseeable future. (I am sure that DPSU defenders will say that only if the DPSUs had more money thrown at them, then all would have been well) Therefore what is required is "directed" private sector participation so as to leverage India's buying power. If the strategic premise is accurate, then it includes military as well as economic aspects.

And if HAL is chosen to make those 300 Rafales, your fundamental premise will be.. fundamentally incorrect.

Your entire edifice of argumentation is built around sketchy internet reports of 300 Rafales.

When we have been struggling to agree to a price for 36. And on that, you are making all sorts of conclusions which are all directed towards predestined conclusions, none of which are backed up entirely by facts (as if what the US can live with, is something the GOI is fundamentally obsessed with vis a vis the MMRCA).

True, the information is not verified.

But I would say that if the initial 36 are bought, then there is a great chance that there will Indian production of the Rafale. Also, Parrikar is on record as saying that India is looking at 300 aircraft under the MII. And yes, it is entirely possible that a different aircraft will be chosen for the larger MII component of the 300.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Apr 2016 20:34

Singha wrote:nobody touches amrika in naval reactors. the S9G in Virginia is designed to operate entire life of sub 30 years without refueling.

Also, uses some 97% enriched uranium to power. Watch out for ANY compromise on this aspect of the enrichment cycle. The Arihant is supposed to use some 40% enriched fuel only. The level of enriched fuel used has a relationship with the time span refueling is needed.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Apr 2016 20:36

What is MII?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 18 Apr 2016 20:37

^^^ldev. Well articulated and genuinely contributes to understanding GoI's thinking.

The only thing I would add is that it is likely that GoI stressed to the French, the value of scale to their MIC. IOW, if set up large chunks of their MIC in India, they could not only sustain it but also lower their own acquisition costs over time. So I'm hoping that it's not just about Rafales, it is a strategic complementarity between the two nations starting with the a/c, moving on to other areas and finally joint development.

The PSUs in India are not going to deliver the MIC: throwing more money at them is like paying the Canara Bank staff more to provide responsive service. They'll take the money and remain their dead-eyed slothful selves.

PSUs have become social projects.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 18 Apr 2016 20:38

ShauryaT wrote:What is MII?

Make In India?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Apr 2016 20:45

I want to eat porridge. I need a golden spoon. The gold smith tells me it 1 lac rupees, but gives me a 30% discount. Hurray, I have saved 30,000 rupees. Let me get 300 of these golden spoons.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 18 Apr 2016 20:49

Cosmo_R wrote: The only thing I would add is that it is likely that GoI stressed to the French, the value of scale to their MIC. IOW, if set up large chunks of their MIC in India, they could not only sustain it but also lower their own acquisition costs over time. So I'm hoping that it's not just about Rafales, it is a strategic complementarity between the two nations starting with the a/c, moving on to other areas and finally joint development.

Most certainly. And I believe that this will not be a one trick pony. Areva and Thales will be part of the MII, Areva certainly for civilian reactors and maybe also for naval reactors. Maybe DCNS as well depending on whether India-US efforts to collaborate on aircraft carriers work out.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 18 Apr 2016 20:56

indranilroy wrote:I want to eat porridge. I need a golden spoon. The gold smith tells me it 1 lac rupees, but gives me a 30% discount. Hurray, I have saved 30,000 rupees. Let me get 300 of these golden spoons.

+$10bn

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 18 Apr 2016 21:15

deejay wrote:Where is Arthuro?

Busy counting his lottery winnings

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2016 21:33

ldev wrote: True, the information is not verified.

But I would say that if the initial 36 are bought, then there is a great chance that there will Indian production of the Rafale. Also, Parrikar is on record as saying that India is looking at 300 aircraft under the MII. And yes, it is entirely possible that a different aircraft will be chosen for the larger MII component of the 300.

Information not verified is putting it mildly.

300 Rafales? When we are struggling with 36.

The HAL Chief said 300 LCA class fighters and brilliant minds on the net (and which gets quoted on BR) make it 300 MMRCAs..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Apr 2016 21:37

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^ldev. Well articulated and genuinely contributes to understanding GoI's thinking.

The only thing I would add is that it is likely that GoI stressed to the French, the value of scale to their MIC. IOW, if set up large chunks of their MIC in India, they could not only sustain it but also lower their own acquisition costs over time. So I'm hoping that it's not just about Rafales, it is a strategic complementarity between the two nations starting with the a/c, moving on to other areas and finally joint development.

The PSUs in India are not going to deliver the MIC: throwing more money at them is like paying the Canara Bank staff more to provide responsive service. They'll take the money and remain their dead-eyed slothful selves.

PSUs have become social projects.

Why would the French turn their social project into an Indian one?

http://aviationweek.com/awin/veto-could ... p-concerns

The French didn't even want to do TOT to HAL for the Rafale (lest it take business away from their local firms) and they will set up "large chunks of their MIC in India"? And create a strategic competitor in the process?

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 18 Apr 2016 22:04

Karan M wrote:
300 Rafales? When we are struggling with 36.

The HAL Chief said 300 LCA class fighters and brilliant minds on the net (and which gets quoted on BR) make it 300 MMRCAs..

Of course, the HAL chief would not like to loose his monopoly on military aircraft manufacture in India. Do not blame him for defending his turf.

But Parrikar said the following here:

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.

What is not explicit here is whether the 300 aircraft number includes the LCA or 300 refers only to the MII proposals from foreign manufacturers. IMO it refers only to foreign aircraft manufactured under MII.