IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 18 Apr 2016 22:04

Karan M wrote:
300 Rafales? When we are struggling with 36.

The HAL Chief said 300 LCA class fighters and brilliant minds on the net (and which gets quoted on BR) make it 300 MMRCAs..


:) Of course, the HAL chief would not like to loose his monopoly on military aircraft manufacture in India. Do not blame him for defending his turf.

But Parrikar said the following here:

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.


What is not explicit here is whether the 300 aircraft number includes the LCA or 300 refers only to the MII proposals from foreign manufacturers. IMO it refers only to foreign aircraft manufactured under MII.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_23694 » 18 Apr 2016 22:08

If this information about the 36 Rafale buy going on eventually to a 300 Rafale MII buy is accurate, it is purely a strategic decision by the Modi Government.


I am not convinced though with this 300 Rafale number. 90 -126 still seems more realistic [not counting Navy] which will lead to around $10-13 Billion in offset , which is pretty decent amount

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Apr 2016 22:55

ldev wrote:
Karan M wrote:
300 Rafales? When we are struggling with 36.

The HAL Chief said 300 LCA class fighters and brilliant minds on the net (and which gets quoted on BR) make it 300 MMRCAs..


:) Of course, the HAL chief would not like to loose his monopoly on military aircraft manufacture in India. Do not blame him for defending his turf.

But Parrikar said the following [url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-US-closer-to-signing-logistic-support-agreement-Manohar-Parrikar/articleshow/51761181.cms]here[/u
"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.


What is not explicit here is whether the 300 aircraft number includes the LCA or 300 refers only to the MII proposals from foreign manufacturers. IMO it refers only to foreign aircraft manufactured under MII.


LDev, how is the HAL Chief mentioning 300 LCA class aircraft = "defending his turf" when in all likelihood any MMRCA will ALSO be made by HAL or assembled there. Or if 300 aircraft are required, what prevents MOD from moving say 200 LCAs to Tata.

Parrikar's statement does not mention for instance, whether all 300 aircraft will be finalized anytime or are all MMRCA.

It seems to be just like his other statements when seen together in the context "of I am a tough negotiator" seems to be all around getting a good deal on current planes.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nachiket » 18 Apr 2016 23:01

Ah, so we have our Denil equivalent for the Rafale deal do we. And on PDF no less! Only a matter of time before it happened I guess.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 18 Apr 2016 23:21

I never figured out what drives Indians to post on TSP fora as regulars (all the while kissing as$ to avoid being banned) and what kind of special, mega, idiot would if he was working in GOI still would go to PDF and yack yack about Indian acquisitions.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Khalsa » 18 Apr 2016 23:39

Its how a nobody gains respect from the Pakis.
Pretends he is GoI official and has time to post on PDF after all the work he has to do that he has to do.

I saw holes in that the size of Lahore ;-)

PDFs are good for one thing only ... screwing up the paki mindsets and getting good pictures of their re-welded T55 turrets

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_28397 » 19 Apr 2016 01:23

36 Rafale's with 90% availability I think these guys can easily prevent any kargil type misadventure from porkies and chinis.
Seems costly but this is to ensure any misadventure can be dealt with swift response and minimum causalities to India.
Hopefully GOI can push frenchie's to let us integrate Mini Brahmos with rafale's.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2016 01:34

^^^

That will cost extra :P

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nachiket » 19 Apr 2016 01:41

MaharathiArjun wrote:36 Rafale's with 90% availability I think these guys can easily prevent any kargil type misadventure from porkies and chinis.
Seems costly but this is to ensure any misadventure can be dealt with swift response and minimum causalities to India.
Hopefully GOI can push frenchie's to let us integrate Mini Brahmos with rafale's.

Really? What exactly is so special about them that will leave Pak and China dhoti-shivering?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Apr 2016 02:05

Karan M wrote:Why would the French turn their social project into an Indian one?

http://aviationweek.com/awin/veto-could ... p-concerns

The French didn't even want to do TOT to HAL for the Rafale (lest it take business away from their local firms) and they will set up "large chunks of their MIC in India"? And create a strategic competitor in the process?


If they partner with HAL, it will be a social project and one they have indicated no interest in. HAL has enough on their plate they will struggle to deliver.

My HOPE and it is not any more than that is that is that the large chunks in India are seen by them as a way to achieve economies of scale for their MIC. The export market for them is not going to sustain their MIC. The US, Russia, China are going to pick off high and low hanging fruit through money or alliances. Accordingly, the hope that NaMo & co. have made a proposal that is more than simply buying 36 a/c and that addresses those economies of scale across the spectrum of military equipment.

IOW, sell them the concept of an expanded pie.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2016 02:06

nachiket wrote:
MaharathiArjun wrote:36 Rafale's with 90% availability I think these guys can easily prevent any kargil type misadventure from porkies and chinis.
Seems costly but this is to ensure any misadventure can be dealt with swift response and minimum causalities to India.
Hopefully GOI can push frenchie's to let us integrate Mini Brahmos with rafale's.

Really? What exactly is so special about them that will leave Pak and China dhoti-shivering?


A silver bullet perhaps :twisted:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2016 02:06

Karan M wrote:I never figured out what drives Indians to post on TSP fora as regulars (all the while kissing as$ to avoid being banned) and what kind of special, mega, idiot would if he was working in GOI still would go to PDF and yack yack about Indian acquisitions.


Why, whats so strange about that? :roll: Where do you think the Wagah candle holders can really hang out? :wink: :D

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cybaru » 19 Apr 2016 02:06

Karan M wrote:I never figured out what drives Indians to post on TSP fora as regulars (all the while kissing as$ to avoid being banned) and what kind of special, mega, idiot would if he was working in GOI still would go to PDF and yack yack about Indian acquisitions.


Why, whats so strange about that? :roll: Where do you think the Wagah candle holders can really hang out? :wink: :D

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2016 02:13

Cosmo_R wrote:
Karan M wrote:Why would the French turn their social project into an Indian one?

http://aviationweek.com/awin/veto-could ... p-concerns

The French didn't even want to do TOT to HAL for the Rafale (lest it take business away from their local firms) and they will set up "large chunks of their MIC in India"? And create a strategic competitor in the process?


If they partner with HAL, it will be a social project and one they have indicated no interest in. HAL has enough on their plate they will struggle to deliver.

My HOPE and it is not any more than that is that is that the large chunks in India are seen by them as a way to achieve economies of scale for their MIC. The export market for them is not going to sustain their MIC. The US, Russia, China are going to pick off high and low hanging fruit through money or alliances. Accordingly, the hope that NaMo & co. have made a proposal that is more than simply buying 36 a/c and that addresses those economies of scale across the spectrum of military equipment.

IOW, sell them the concept of an expanded pie.


When has France ever bought into the economies of scale argument and wholesale transferred technology for something as complex as the Rafale? Dislike for HAL apart, the fact remains the French were wary of propping up a possible competitor who could use their tech for its local programs. The same issues will apply for anything more than screwdriver to Indian pvt firms, which will be even greater risks than HAL. What the French (And everyone else) want is a share of the Indian pie at minimum risk.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2016 02:21

^^^
The whole imported "ToT" is one big farce. Good for marketing and sales.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2016 03:07

indranilroy wrote:I want to eat porridge. I need a golden spoon. The gold smith tells me it 1 lac rupees, but gives me a 30% discount. Hurray, I have saved 30,000 rupees. Let me get 300 of these golden spoons.


Ah :) ... but before a deal can be signed, I also ask for intricate designs to be embossed on them and on top of that it is mandatory for the gold smith to help me setup shop in my house and spend 50% of it on hiring (or buying goods from) my relatives while also teaching me how to do it too. I still want that 30% discount though :twisted:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Apr 2016 03:12

Karan M wrote: What the French (And everyone else) want is a share of the Indian pie at minimum risk.


Yes and HAL too. That is the way enterprises work: maximum profit at minimum risk. BUT! you got to deliver.

Social projects such as PSUs take maximum risk at taxpayer expense and lose money. And they don't deliver. Sure, send more money and we'll make it work etc. This is not a virtue: else, Air India would be an exemplar. Anybody seriously think spending more money on AI will enable them to deliver? Yets we continue to subsidize them (and Boeing) at a $1 bn annual rate. Not to mention mention worthless loans from PSU Banks.

One can argue that the fault lies not in them but their stars (their political masters' patronage).

But that is the problem. When you know for sure that money is the sole motivator, you know how to play them. When it gets confused with social objectives such as the one you mentioned about HAL not being able to take over management of BRDs because the IAF worried about employment, it gets murky.

Naked self interest is easy to deal with. PSU bachao andolans queer the pitch.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_28397 » 19 Apr 2016 10:44

nachiket wrote:
MaharathiArjun wrote:36 Rafale's with 90% availability I think these guys can easily prevent any kargil type misadventure from porkies and chinis.
Seems costly but this is to ensure any misadventure can be dealt with swift response and minimum causalities to India.
Hopefully GOI can push frenchie's to let us integrate Mini Brahmos with rafale's.

Really? What exactly is so special about them that will leave Pak and China dhoti-shivering?


:oops: I am no expert sir, but from whatever I have read from internet, if we have got a multi-role fighter/bomb truck like Rafale during Kargil war with precision weapons, we could have saved 100s of our young brave soldiers. So if one Rafale can save 10 precious lives of our soldiers its well worth of it.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Viv S » 19 Apr 2016 10:58

MaharathiArjun wrote::oops: I am no expert sir, but from whatever I have read from internet, if we have got a multi-role fighter/bomb truck like Rafale during Kargil war with precision weapons, we could have saved 100s of our young brave soldiers. So if one Rafale can save 10 precious lives of our soldiers its well worth of it.

A multi-role fighter like the Tejas or Su-30 could save just as many lives as the Rafale in a Kargil-type conflict. Both types are equipped with precision weapons.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby deejay » 19 Apr 2016 11:00

MaharathiArjun wrote:...

:oops: I am no expert sir, but from whatever I have read from internet, if we have got a multi-role fighter/bomb truck like Rafale during Kargil war with precision weapons, we could have saved 100s of our young brave soldiers. So if one Rafale can save 10 precious lives of our soldiers its well worth of it.


There is no doubt that Rafale is fantastically capable. It carries an excellent store of weapon and has a range to hit the enemy inside where the rats feel safely burrowed.

Question is, could we have done it with our Su 30s? Do we really need Rafale? Just the steep acquisition cost may offset any advantage it offers in operating cost over the life time. Isn't it primarily the cost which dictates the Light - Medium - Heavy logic?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2016 11:24

MaharathiArjun wrote:
nachiket wrote:{quote="MaharathiArjun"}36 Rafale's with 90% availability I think these guys can easily prevent any kargil type misadventure from porkies and chinis.
Seems costly but this is to ensure any misadventure can be dealt with swift response and minimum causalities to India.
Hopefully GOI can push frenchie's to let us integrate Mini Brahmos with rafale's.{/quote}
Really? What exactly is so special about them that will leave Pak and China dhoti-shivering?


:oops: I am no expert sir, but from whatever I have read from internet, if we have got a multi-role fighter/bomb truck like Rafale during Kargil war with precision weapons, we could have saved 100s of our young brave soldiers. So if one Rafale can save 10 precious lives of our soldiers its well worth of it.


Shows how effective and pervasive foreign marketing of their products have been. There has always been that perception in India that Western maal is superior. It doesn't take much to convince them. Whereas even though homegrown LCA has proven its precision capability mass public in India it seems are unaware. The enemy is our own DDMs who have been so effective that most public only hear about its failures and not what it can do. And the public sector marketing efforts are for the most part non-existent to overcome already preconceived belief that desi products are inferior.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 19 Apr 2016 12:00

It is amazing how the chit/chatter (recently F-18 line for 200-300 fighters or for Rafale) rises from nowhere (based on unconfirmed sources) and dies even quicker. Parrikar/MOD has done well to keep confused (or interested) everyone that what is actually going on. Based on Saurav Jha tweets, even Gripen and SU-35S are as well in the arena. The only one who is missing from guesses is Euro-fighter (and probably for good reasons such as as expensive as Rafale, 4 countries involved, less mature than Rafale, no Naval version, proven support of Frenchs etc.)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2016 14:01

Cosmo_R wrote:Social projects such as PSUs take maximum risk at taxpayer expense and lose money. And they don't deliver. Sure, send more money and we'll make it work etc. This is not a virtue: else, Air India would be an exemplar. Anybody seriously think spending more money on AI will enable them to deliver? Yets we continue to subsidize them (and Boeing) at a $1 bn annual rate. Not to mention mention worthless loans from PSU Banks.

One can argue that the fault lies not in them but their stars (their political masters' patronage).

But that is the problem. When you know for sure that money is the sole motivator, you know how to play them. When it gets confused with social objectives such as the one you mentioned about HAL not being able to take over management of BRDs because the IAF worried about employment, it gets murky.

Naked self interest is easy to deal with. PSU bachao andolans queer the pitch.



Again, our social projects or private exemplars don't matter a whit to the French. All they care about is their benefit. When they are afraid to even cooperate with an easy going PSU afraid that it will soak up their tech and transfer it to other programs, why would they work with capable private firms who are into more than just screwdrivers?

Why was L&T or Tata not chosen for the Rafale instead of HAL if HAL was the issue??

Also, your statements are not really accurate. This anti DPSU stuff/screed gets tiresome especially when facts are ignored. Not every firm is BSNL or Air India or whatever.

So, the worthless DPSU that is HAL can make the ALH, LCH etc, assemble the Su-30 but can't make the Rafale?

You state more money is not the answer. Really? Have you done checking about how much capex and opex these firms have and what happened under the previous MOD/GOI?

Few private firms (apart from L&T and Tata) will approach it in terms of capability. For all the talk of indigenization, they too rely on the same COTs from "outside" & work with the same folks DPSUs do.

Its even more ironical since the very foreign firms which are supposed to do "TOT" and not work with "DPSUs" are but DPSUs in part since the French Govt has ownership stake in many of its firms & exercises control. Which means forget about "workshare" to India since the very same "social projects" that concern our politicians concern the French politicos as well.

Unlike our politicos though, they invest in their firms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofradir

Who do you think funded and sponsored the above firm. Is it going to be up for sale anytime?

IAI was Govt owned as well. The point is it really doesn't matter if its DPSU or not, as long as you keep the fatcats away - including crooks who waltz across portfolios who quote their hahvahd pedigree or soft spoken imbeciles who claim to be honest but run an entire country into the ground.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_20453 » 19 Apr 2016 16:14

Karan M wrote:I never figured out what drives Indians to post on TSP fora as regulars (all the while kissing as$ to avoid being banned) and what kind of special, mega, idiot would if he was working in GOI still would go to PDF and yack yack about Indian acquisitions.


hahah :rotfl: quite true.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Apr 2016 16:30

@Karan M ^^. Whether DPSUs are inherently worthless, chronically underfunded and strangled by the babooz, it doesn't really matter. For either or both of those reasons they have not delivered. Doing things the same way again will get the same results. Your view is that this time it's different. For me, it is "Deja vu all over again."

The current structure is set up to fail. That's about it.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_20453 » 19 Apr 2016 16:51

DAC approval happening on papers exchanged possibly on April 21 followed by visits for formal signing..

Source: http://defence.pk/threads/dassault-rafa ... z46H68XBFe

Cross posting Parikrama.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Austin » 19 Apr 2016 16:55

These guys posting on Pak forum guess they just want to rub it on them ?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2016 17:38

Cosmo_R wrote:@Karan M ^^. Whether DPSUs are inherently worthless, chronically underfunded and strangled by the babooz, it doesn't really matter. For either or both of those reasons they have not delivered. Doing things the same way again will get the same results. Your view is that this time it's different. For me, it is "Deja vu all over again."

The current structure is set up to fail. That's about it.


Look you are having a "I shall read what I wish to see as versus what the other person is saying" issue, driven by the fact you are using this event as an excuse to do an idealogy driven exposition,

Such as -the current structure is set up to fail, - yet it is delivering in key areas. (Incidentally, with the private sector happily trundling along in those select programs).

So here is it simplified- and back to the issue at hand - point out where I have said that "this time its different"? That's your conjecture driven by your idee fixe, not mine.

#1
I merely pointed out that the pie in the sky theories about 300 Rafales, about Modi getting the French to sign on the dotted line with the oh so special private sector.. were.. unlikely. They will send stuff over, sure. But it will be mostly assembly work (as versus screwdrivering at HAL, do it at some other firm).

Nothing Modi/or Parrikar have done so far is about being "radical" or engaging in demagoguery of the kind espoused (bad PSUs vs good private sector etc). They have merely opened up the sector and given licenses wherever possible, but also ensured that the current PSU/DPSU structure has NOT been dismantled but instead is being given the support it needs (less political interference, proper planning and budgeting). This is savvy politics too. He does not have to deal with angry trade unions.

In short, this is NaMo's method - he has the Govt deliver, he does not make it disappear. So to expect HAL to somehow trundle away out of the picture IF the GOI puts up a ton of money & the private sector does not have the required capabilities (or will not put up the funding) is unrealistic.

#2
Second, is your insistence that India will somehow convince the French to "buy in" to economies of scale, make us an extension of their MIC to compete with Russia, PRC, US etc. Again - not happened all these days, what is different now? Why would French politicos transfer scarce expertise to a potential competitor? Why would French SMEs allow it?

Even for Rafale TOT there were angry protests.

So, again, i see nothing from your side to state that this "will be different". Face it, Dassault ensured that it did not transfer any technology to India for the core Rafale and I wouldn't hold my breath on the stuff appearing in the media either.

#3
- "Indian DPSUs are a social project" because they are PSUs. Which again ignores the fact that defense is a social project everywhere in the world.

Same reason why Russia does not want to buy Brahmos but will buy Yakhont.
Same reason why Milan2 indigenization is capped at some 80%, rest import in perpetuity.
Same reason why Israel sells us IR detectors but will not consult the expertise to use them optimally.

Every country wants to protect its defense set up at the expense of others.

Again, this reiterates the fact that its not ownership which is the crux of the issue but (lack of) institutionalized leadership. Private or public, we are in the same mess because if the files land up at the table of a RM like AKA who is not interested, then there will be no progress. And there will be issues because his colleagues are either vested (like our hahvahd crook) or his "leader" is a yes man. If you think HAL is more corrupt than pvt firms, then dear sir, you are an idealist or not even following the nature of corruption in India. The paper trail is also missing in our famous concerns (as vs the more reputed pvt firms which are still working for defense but are not getting their due regard).

#4
So, to summarize - if you are expecting 300 Rafales and unicorns from the private sector making these without fuss and supplanting HAL - IMO its unlikely to happen. The cost of setting up a 2nd airframer is non trivial and our prv sector chaps are not going to budge into investment of such a magnitude.

If we are speaking of some screwdriver assembly 2nd production line being run at Oil processing company, then yes that is possible.

But it will NOT lead to any tangible gains in making the LCA or AMCA or supplanting HAL I am afraid.

#5
That will only come, if GOI opens its pocket books and decides to make a strategic decision, ROI be darned & allegations of impropriety be darned of supporting a pvt competitor to HAL (say L&T or Tata). The issue with that is then you have a duopoly, not a monopoly. So no easy answers there either if you let the babus decide. That has to happen for several programs.

Ultimately though, a one time exemption has to be made and somebody asked to step up - say Tata, L&T etc have to choose. I suspect though it was done, and they avoided the risk. Which is the other fact about our setup. Getting the IAF to sign up for 100 odd Mk1As was a big deal by itself but for such a run can you have 2 lines?

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 010908.cms

Until and unless such "political", strong decisions are taken, IMO we will remain import dependent and France or whosover you refer to will continue to make hay and send screwdrivers.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 19 Apr 2016 17:48

^^^

Good post!

In one of those panel discussions on Make In India, I think it was the L&T CEO who stated something like so far we have policies but where are the orders?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nits » 19 Apr 2016 17:49

"We may select to buy aircraft from one or two companies / countries depending on our requirement and the bulk of it will be manufactured in India. A maximum of a squadron consisting of 18 aircraft may be bought outright from the winning bidder. A total of 300 aircraft, mostly for the Indian Air force, will be manufactured over a 15-year period," Parrikar said. He also said that India is looking to also export the fighter jets after its manufacture here.


1) He is no where saying we will buy 300 Aircraft- he said we will Manufacture it - which is more or less LCA which is already ordered and more can be 36 Rafale + Remaining LCA MK 2 or LCA + F18
2) Even if we speculate on 2 companies 1 of them is HAL so one thing is sure that we are not getting Rafael and F 18 both - only one of them will join IAF which make sense. No point having 1 Aircraft from each continent

All this talk is to ensure we get best of price for Rafel and F-18 and we are using it as Negotiation tactics

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 19 Apr 2016 18:06

To give you HAL's enthu for exports of LCAs,the morning's media had reports about Egypt and Sri Lanka (rejected the JF-17) eager to buy the LCA in "as is where is" capability,not an improved version.However,HAL throws cold water on the same saying that are are busy with providing the IAF with its requirements first,showing little enthu.Instead it could've said "wonderful,we must explore the possibility asap..." and then leverage the GOI to start a second prod. line which in any case is essential if we are to have more than 100+ LCAs ever built. At this rate there will be enquiries,but little movement further.

I frankly can't see where the moolah for the huge number of Raffys is going to come from. A package deal with N-plants,etc.,etc. may be how the bird will arrive in IAF roundels. 3 sqds should suffice as there are going to be 100+ upgraded M-2Ks and MIG-29s as well in the med inventory,not to mention 100+ Jags also planned for upgrade. It is the light zone where numbers matter and only the LCA or LCA + Gripen can provide an answer to the 45 sqd reuirement if Ru birds are to be kept out of the equation.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nits » 19 Apr 2016 18:19

Totally agree... Lets accept the fact that we dont have endless budget to get 300 Raffy... 36 is costing us 18 Billion and 300 will cost 150 billion - lets be generous and reduce 25 billion for mass of scale still 125 billions on aircraft - No way

Ideal Scenario and Reality is 250+LCA and 50 F/18 or Raffy whatever they decide based on geo-political situation

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 19 Apr 2016 18:25

Karan M wrote:
#1
I merely pointed out that the pie in the sky theories about 300 Rafales, about Modi getting the French to sign on the dotted line with the oh so special private sector.. were.. unlikely. They will send stuff over, sure. But it will be mostly assembly work (as versus screwdrivering at HAL, do it at some other firm).

Nothing Modi/or Parrikar have done so far is about being "radical" or engaging in demagoguery of the kind espoused (bad PSUs vs good private sector etc). They have merely opened up the sector and given licenses wherever possible, but also ensured that the current PSU/DPSU structure has NOT been dismantled but instead is being given the support it needs (less political interference, proper planning and budgeting). This is savvy politics too. He does not have to deal with angry trade unions.

In short, this is NaMo's method - he has the Govt deliver, he does not make it disappear. So to expect HAL to somehow trundle away out of the picture IF the GOI puts up a ton of money & the private sector does not have the required capabilities (or will not put up the funding) is unrealistic.


All that I am saying is that HAL's monopoly days are over. Gone are the days when every single military aircraft in India will be made by HAL and only by HAL. Whether the 300 is only Rafale, a combination of Rafale and F18 or a combination of Rafale, F18 and LCA is up in the air. What is not in doubt is that there will be a private sector assembly line for fighter aircraft in India which will compete with HAL.

As far as screw driver technology is concerned, of course, no OEM will want to part with it, just look at the Rafale negotiations, look at the Brahmos JV, look even at the SU-30. What the Modi Government has done is announce a goal of MII, implying a deeper level of technology transfer and innovation in India. Whether it will succeed is uncertain at this point in time. HAL will remain, but it will be 1 of 2 or even 3 manufacturers.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Apr 2016 18:36

Does anybody know if our mki is capable of terrain following modes the bars? How about jags or mirage? The raffle surely does?

About this parikrama chap, he is literally giving day by day hourly updates, sand not false either :shock:

It seems sagem has tired up with an indian company for the aasm as well.

Re. MPs comment.. I think the context is clear, he is referring to 300 fighters, and quite likely foreign ones. He also said the decision will be made within a year. Now this could have been a ploy in negotiations but he might be serious too....either way the statement is on record
Last edited by Cain Marko on 19 Apr 2016 18:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2016 18:40

ldev wrote:All that I am saying is that HAL's monopoly days are over. Gone are the days when every single military aircraft in India will be made by HAL and only by HAL. Whether the 300 is only Rafale, a combination of Rafale and F18 or a combination of Rafale, F18 and LCA is up in the air. What is not in doubt is that there will be a private sector assembly line for fighter aircraft in India which will compete with HAL.


Thar be a lot of optimism? For all the talk of pvt sector, ultimately even the LCA remained with HAL - posted a link about that.

All we otherwise have so far is a couple of reports vaguely talking of "300 aircraft", one day, someday as the song goes - and how exactly can a simple assembly line "compete with HAL"?

As far as screw driver technology is concerned, of course, no OEM will want to part with it, just look at the Rafale negotiations, look at the Brahmos JV, look even at the SU-30.


Errr... lets stick to facts.

for the Brahmos, India makes a good part of the airframe & pretty much everything else is Indian (C&C, TELs, FCS) -which is a fairly huge portion of the system cost & very complex. No Russian involvement there (from Akash Prithvi) & which is why we can do the same for MRSAM/Nirbhay

Two parts remain - engine & seeker. Now, seeker we are indigenizing. Engine, there was (loose) talk of reverse engineering etc and suddenly current CEO comes out with a statement of "no we are fully law abiding onlee". So anyways, engine apart, rest will be mostly local.

For the Su-30, HAL makes 70% of the parts within India.

So, how exactly will a screwdriver assembly line in some private firm == HAL capabilities?

For that, we need significant TOT & all that to be organized within the Indian ecosystem.

This is a work of decades not some finger wave & a competitor to HAL.

What the Modi Government has done is announce a goal of MII, implying a deeper level of technology transfer and innovation in India. Whether it will succeed is uncertain at this point in time. HAL will remain, but it will be 1 of 2 or even 3 manufacturers.


I suspect Modi govt is yet to decide on any firm plan since the fin min support is simply in short supply, but has let Parrikar make statements to get a good deal out of Dassault.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 19 Apr 2016 18:43

Cain Marko wrote:It seems sagem has tired up with an indian company for the aasm as well.

Re. MPs comment.. I think the context is clear, he is referring to 300 fighters, and quite likely foreign ones. Now this could have been a ploy in negotiations but he might be serious too..


Regarding company chosen for "tie up". Kindly look up shri Sagar Gs statements on the firm.

Like I said, don't expect anything more than screwdrivering in India.

Alpha, DataP, VEM capable SME firms & we have this one for Hammer.
Tata, L&T etc and we had Oil & co chosen for Rafale assembly. :lol:

Re. MPs comment.. I think the context is clear, he is referring to 300 fighters, and quite likely foreign ones. Now this could have been a ploy in negotiations but he might be serious too..


Lets see.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 19 Apr 2016 19:06

Karan M wrote:So, the worthless DPSU that is HAL can make the ALH, LCH etc, assemble the Su-30 but can't make the Rafale?

You state more money is not the answer. Really? Have you done checking about how much capex and opex these firms have and what happened under the previous MOD/GOI?




I whole heartedly agree with this point of view. Both DRDO and DPSUs have been starved of funds. Its idiotic to think that whole MoD does not know that more funds are required for R&D when 15 years old kid on BRF knows this. Military imports are being used as cash cow by Politicians; and Babus & Jarnails are just mouth pieces for creating public perception. How do you prevent public outcry for purchasing 36 pieces of metal for Rs 60,000 crore? Present a willing Jarnail with chest full of medals talking about dire need of aircraft while ignoring basics like BPJs and NVGs. This plays well with foreign lobbies also. After-all they are not only sellers of arms but they also have a Geo-strategic aim to prevent the rise of Indian Military Industrial complex. Everybody is happy and rich and I will be long dead before we loose our hard fought freedom to FDI.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby arthuro » 19 Apr 2016 19:07

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 891379.cms

Most hitches in Rafale deal addressed: MoS Defence Rao Inderjit Singh

NEW DELHI: Most of the hitches in the multi- billion Euro deal for 36 Rafale fighter planes have been addressed and the remaining ones will be cleared in the next meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh said today.

The meeting of DAC, the apex body of the Defence Ministry for procurement, is likely to take place on April 21, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar arrives here from his visit to China.

Hoping that the Rafale deal would be inked soon, Indian Air Force Chief Arup Raha said, "It is at a very advanced stage."

Singh told reporters here, "I can only tell you this that most of the hitches that were there, have been addressed. A few (remaining) issues will be addressed, when possibly the matter comes up before DAC. They shall be addressed in the next DAC. And thereafter I think the road shall be clear."

He was asked as to when the deal is likely to be signed.

When the same question was put to Air Chief Marshal Raha on the sidelines of an IAF seminar, he said, "We have seen so many years go past. How can I give an assurance? But it is in a very advanced stage."

The junior defence minister brushed aside a suggestion that at least six indigenously made Light Combat Aircraft Tejas can be bought for the price of one Rafale plane, saying both the aircraft were totally different in nature and that IAF needed both.

India and France could firm up the order for the purchase of 36 Rafale combat planes as both the countries have managed to narrow down their differences over pricing.

The development comes nearly four months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and French President Francois Hollande signed a memorandum of agreement to purchase 36 Rafale aircraft.

The Indian side has been negotiating hard to bring down the price with Parrikar refusing to buckle under pressure even as questions were raised about the delay in signing of the contract.

Sources said the price for 36 Rafales, as per the UPA government's tender, keeping the cost escalation and dollar rate in mind, comes to a little over Rs 65,000 crore.

This includes the cost involved in making changes India has sought in the aircraft, including Israeli helmet-mounted display and some specific weaponry.

"The effort is to bring down the price to less than Euros 8 billion (Rs 59,000 crore)," the sources said.

The final deal may be clinched by May-end.


Other news:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/d ... 493629.ece

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /83221878/

http://dailytimes.com.pk/world/19-Apr-1 ... rom-france

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 662_1.html

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Apr 2016 20:09

^ so, that parkram chap was on the spot down to the nuts bolts saying statement will be given by junior mod official not mp...

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby sohels » 19 Apr 2016 20:24

Cain Marko wrote:^ so, that parkram chap was on the spot down to the nuts bolts saying statement will be given by junior mod official not mp...


Some of the articles (eg Hindu 12:43pm) appear to have been published before his junior official comment (6:03pm).


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