arthuro wrote:Karan M, Austin,
The rafale is already fitted with a Satcom capability. The Satcom antenna is located behind the cockpit (the small fin):
http://www.journal-aviation.com/actuali ... -la-satcom
The SATCOM capability is already in use. You won't see every rafale with this antenna I think, only a certain number were bought.
You can see Egyptian rafales have this capability:
http://img.over-blog-kiwi.com/0/54/74/5 ... -les-c.jpg
Its all available from France for a price.brar_w wrote:Using SATCOM for NLOS tactical communication (What the Egyptians are going to do with it) is a lot different form doing it for the purpose of secure, jam-resistant, and highly survivable strategic missions which are being spoken of here. Obviously, you aren't going to go to commercial satellites, or even look to buy access to existing french satellites in order to provide that capability to your main nuclear bomb delivery system (if that is indeed one of the roles). That is just absurd. Strategic SATCOM capability needs are a lot different, and much stricter than the SATCOM capability that we routinely see on drones, and other strike fighters given the mission demands and the critical nature of the communication that end up dictating waveform, and overall capability. While the French use the Rafale in the strategic role, it is quite obvious that India would not tap into their strategic networks, and rely on them protecting them for its own strategic needs.
Here is one example of a very recent strategic SATCOM AESA program :
http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... pabilities
Viv and others are 100% right in that India would need to develop indigenous, fully end2end protected SATCOM communication for its strategic needs, whether that is for the MKI, Rafale or the AMCA and AURA.
Wiki chacha wrote:ASMPA is 5.38 m long and weighs 860 kg. It is a supersonic standoff missile powered by a liquid fuel ramjet.[citation needed] It flies at Mach 2 to Mach 3, with a range between 80 km and 300 km (ASMP)/ 500 km (ASMPA) depending on flight profile. Warhead was a single a single 300 kt of TNT TN 81 for ASMP, and a single 300 kt of TNT Airborne Nuclear Warhead (TNA).
There wil be no risk as long as Egypt does notarthuro wrote: There are opportunities to limit the risk.
If the French said, hey, with ASMP we are done with nuclear testing - what does that tell us of its EMP resistance in the nuclear role with a huge EMP surge? Nothing, right. But you are stating it as a fact, which is what I am curious about. At least F-35 has been tested..Based on these considerations, a comprehensive lightning protection plan was evolved to ensure that the lightning hardness of LCA is adequately addressed and demonstrated. Vulnerable structures and systems in it, such as radome, wing, fin, and rudder were identified from direct effects point-of-view and have been lightning qualified. Flight control systems and engine control unit are being qualified against indirect effects of lightning.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=108881SPECIAL AWARD FOR STRATEGIC CONTRIBUTION 2013 is being conferred on:
· Smt. U Jeya Santhi, Scientist ‘F’ and her team for significant contributions towards successful design, development, erection and commissioning of Strategic Command and Control infrastructure comprising a secured, multi-layered, Strategic Communication Network and specialised Blast and EMP hardened structures.
· Shri K Ravi Sankar, Scientist 'F', Centre for Artificial Intelligence and Robotics (CAIR), Bengaluru and his team for outstanding contributions to the development of Security Solutions for Strategic Communication Networks (SCN) for securing sensitive data transmitted over PSTN links, high-speed point-to-point links which incorporate indigenous high grade encryption algorithms, automated and fast robust synchronization, user friendly end-to-end key management, innovative capture resiliency techniques with robust authentication mechanisms.
· Shri Rajeev Thaman, Scientist 'F', Scientific Analysis Group (SAG), Delhi and his team have made significant contributions in developing various indigenous information security SW Solutions for Cyber Defence, which have been deployed at various Defence Establishments, Strategic Programmes and other Intelligence Agencies providing high level of security assurance.
We will never know for sure , even Rafale taking over nuke role won't be know or at best it would be vague , we will never know what goes inside Rafale emp hardening or Indian specific eqpKaran M wrote:My point is how do you know Rafale was tested for EMP hardening specifically for the gravity bomb nuclear
http://www.euronews.com/business-newswi ... 16-report/PARIS (Reuters) – Dassault Aviation <AVMD.PA> hopes to seal “one or two” contracts to sell its Rafale planes this year and this would include a much-heralded deal to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, its chief executive said an interview.
“One can hope for on one or two contracts this year, including India,” Eric Trappier was reported as saying by magazine Challenges on its Challenges.fr web site.
Negotiations for India to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets are nearing the finish line, the Indian defence ministry said last week, with sources saying the price will be set at around $9 billion.
“Significantly progress has been made and I sense a true will to reach an agreement, possibly in the coming weeks,” Trappier said of the India talks.
Both sides had hoped to wrap up the strategic order during President Francois Hollande’s visit for India’s Republic Day celebration in January, but hard bargaining on price stalled a final result.
Dassault Aviation said in March it was working on deals to also sell Rafale jets to Malaysia and the United Arab Emirates.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15889/ ... x4tADfVyUkWe will be well positioned to provide additional 90 aircraft, if New Delhi confirms its need for 126 combat aircraft, Dassault CEO Eric Trappier said.
In an interview with French news daily, Challenges, Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier said Monday that, “Significant progress in the Rafale deal with India has been made and I sense a real determination to succeed, possibly in the coming weeks.”
When asked whether US competitors doing the rounds to New Delhi and proposals of assembly lines for F-16s and F-18 in India are a threat to Dassault, Trappier said, “ After the 36 fighter aircraft, all candidates including Russians, the British, Swedes and, of course, Americans are all lobbying against us. All candidates have promised assembly sites to win the following 90. Offering a factory set-up of F-16s to India even while selling the same aircraft to Pakistan, the US does not seem serious. The US has already won contracts with the Air Force for transport aircraft in particular.
I doubt the Rafale will ever come close to MKI in the customisation as per India requirement and integration of any weapons that India wants , not perhaps without Dassault asking for an arm and leg to do it. Certain system like Brahmos may never end up on Rafale , much less the TOT or any industrial scale manuf of MKI in India.Karan M wrote:IM(VVVHO) true value of Rafale ji is in getting a true multirole bird without the defective issues plaguing our Su-30 fleet (till Astra, NGARM come in). we have a long rage fighter which can self escort and do Hammer time, or drop a Meteor on some Erieyes and be a silver bullet.
but we need to double the order. at least 72 with 2 squadrons on each border AND the full ecosystem of support kit, which means ASTAC. Work with Thales for full interoperability between Rafale and Su-30. Also, if DARE cannot solve RWR issues on Su-30 (if they haven't already) get the Thales OTS units into the Flanker for testing or better still go to Russia and have them integrate a set for us with SAP-518 and N011M together.
It won't but hopefully the Rafale won't need much customization.Austin wrote:I doubt the Rafale will ever come close to MKI in the customisation as per India requirement and integration of any weapons that India wants , not perhaps without Dassault asking for an arm and leg to do it. Certain system like Brahmos may never end up on Rafale , much less the TOT or any industrial scale manuf of MKI in India.
But, but, the colors!Having said that I agree we need atleast 4-5 squadron of Rafale , Cant go for a piece meal approach of buy 36 of that and 20 of this and 90 of that type we are not in 80's any longer and IAF should not be made a circus but standardizes the fleet and weapons.
French mags will all claim Rafale won from 20,000 km away.Would be interesting to see how DACT between MKI and Rafale go
The above is simplistic. What China can do is detonate a high altitude (something like 400 km high), 3MT device on the India-Tibet border, north-west of Nepal which will set off such a strong EMP that it will knock out everything unshielded all over North India including New Delhi. If China does just that without any other subsequent nuclear strike means that all Indian military aircraft (not just the Rafale) must be EMP hardened because in the aftermath of such an EMP, there will still be a conventional war to fight, so all Indian military aircraft must be EMP hardened. So to somehow try and justify the nose bleed prices of the Rafale by saying that it is something special because it is EMP hardened is plain wrong.Austin wrote:For nuclear delivery role aircraft have to be hardned they use electronic that are hardned against emp to a greater degree then normal aircraft so post bombing if they are caught in emp wave they don't get disabled beyond that they also use other method to harden other aspect of aircraft like I read the wires etc are covered with metal harness etc have hardware for PAL system
Even if ASMP have a range of 300 plus km they might also use it say from 100-50 or 25 km with appropriate lo lo trajectory etc even French Rafale would be hardwired n hardned that's SOP
Yes, but remember, they have the vast Tibet plateau over which all the EMP effect will be felt, and hardening only the military and critical infrastructure in Tibet will not be very difficult specially if they plan to do something like this. On the Indian side, the North Indian plain has teeming cities with hundreds of millions of people.NRao wrote:So would the Chinese need to harden everything on their side of the fence.
Nuclear EMP peaks at about 50kV for 200nS. IMO any inline surge suppression MOV for 60kV-100kV is enough. Of course the longer the cable length the greater the potential to couple. Fiber is immune, shielded PCB's will have lesser need for surge suppression etc. Power lines at ground are probably more susceptible due to presence of real "ground". Something flying will not be as susceptible as something on ground since there is no real "ground" even in the absence of shield. Both power plane and ground plane (or differential communication lines) will jump by almost same amount due to common mode noise (in addition to lower area for coupling) and any flying electronic component will need to deal only with low differential surge suppression. When the aircraft is on ground care should be taken to not provide a direct path to real ground without adequate surge suppression (applies mostly to maintenance equipment). Aircraft electronics are hardened for direct lightning strikes anyway (which can be in million+ volt range).Singha wrote:what does this hardening involve? are telecom, banking and power grid electronics needing some special things?
US.MIL used a variety of techniques in hardening against EMP. Some of them a civilian can try and some are too expensive.
Generally speaking, an object's longest dimension dictates the amount of EMP it absorbs. A 3 inch radio with a hundred foot antenna is a hundred foot long object. The power grid is a thousands mile long object. Also important is the type of electronics. A tube radio is far less vulnerable than a transistor radio and they are less sensitive than modern IC based radios. Still most battery powered radios and hand held electronics are expected to survive if they are not connected to the grid (on a charger counts as connected to the grid) or an external antenna, especially if they are not powered on at the time. Their cross section is just too small.
BTW, EMP is expected to be most powerful in the FM and VHF TV bands.
Most important is the need to isolate the electronics from pulses coming in on external connections. Fuses and typical surge supressors don't act quickly enough. We'd use extremely sophisticated connectors where each pin has a MOSFET in line with it. (Metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistor) This device has a resistance that increases as the voltage increases, so high voltages are immediately blocked. A second conductor then shunts this high voltage to an isolated ground. Very expensive and something you cannot reverse engineer on an existing product.
To a civilian with some warning, this means disconnecting all external cabling from a device. Since you aren't likely to know in advance when EMP will happen, that really means having a spare on the shelf. Some people go to the effort of creating Faraday cages around their stored electronics. I don't think it necessary but I won't condemn it. The easiest way to enclose something in a Faraday cage is to put it in a nonconducive box and "gift wrap" that in aluminum foil then roll over and tape all the seams down so you have continuous electrical contact. Do not ground the foil.
Cars are an interesting case. They are by nature designed with a very noisy electrical environment in mind. Some cars will be shut down by EMP, depending on their orientation and local EMP levels, especially if they are running at the time. Many of these cars will be startable if you disconnect the positive wire from the battery and then short it to the metal car chassis. This forces a reboot of all on board computers. Being in an underground garage will greatly reduce (but not eliminate) EMP levels. The surest solution is to have a spare in a Faraday cage or a vehicle that does not use a computer.
Yes, any nuclear yield above 10 kt will produce an EMP but it must stay between 40km and about 80km altitude, any higher and the gamma divergence is too much. The strength is always the same - 40,000 V/m radiated to a divergence from about 40 km altitude. The main difference is in yield AND altitude. The number of gammas that produce Compton electrons is a a product of two factors: altitude decides the 'coverage area' for the EMP pulse and the number of gammas that reach the source region (20-40 km altitude). The number of gammas determine if it can generate enough Compton electrons to produce the pulse. A 10 kt nuke detonated at 150 km would not produce much of an EMP.
And some heavy duty reading if interested:A 'standard' single stage implosion type weapon with some boosting process (neutron enhancement during detonation sequence) has yields from 150-400 kt. This yield is plenty to knock out the electrical grid and any electronics in a vast area.
Ofcourse china can do that and so can India thats not the point here.ldev wrote:The above is simplistic. What China can do is detonate a high altitude (something like 400 km high), 3MT device on the India-Tibet border, north-west of Nepal which will set off such a strong EMP that it will knock out everything unshielded all over North India including New Delhi. If China does just that without any other subsequent nuclear strike means that all Indian military aircraft (not just the Rafale) must be EMP hardened because in the aftermath of such an EMP, there will still be a conventional war to fight, so all Indian military aircraft must be EMP hardened. So to somehow try and justify the nose bleed prices of the Rafale by saying that it is something special because it is EMP hardened is plain wrong.
If you see even the MKI has a range of Standoff weapons for such role , the only difference is we are paying a premium to get this stuff for Rafale , if you pay even half of the premium for what we are doing for Rafale for the MKI we can get much more things inside that aircraft ,with better uptimes and range of weapons employed would drawf the Rafale , As with Bars we have the source code and there is no restriction for what we want to integrate.Karan M wrote:It won't but hopefully the Rafale won't need much customization.
Spectra for instance taking care of entire SPJ from low-high band and no extra pod required.
Hammer/AASM + Paveway LGBs sufficient for most tasks.
Mica (IR/RF)+ Meteor (RF) being sufficient for most A2A tasks..
Exocet for A2S.
I am sure Rafale can hold its own against any thing out there as many exercise has shown.French mags will all claim Rafale won from 20,000 km away.
Noob question. 400km is LEO regime. A lot of satellites and even ISS, are in that vicinity. Wouldn't an EMP burst there would screw a lot of satellites of other nations?? Are the satellites EMP proof to that level, that they can sustain EMP burst from a nuclear blast at 400km??ldev wrote: The above is simplistic. What China can do is detonate a high altitude (something like 400 km high), 3MT device on the India-Tibet border, north-west of Nepal which will set off such a strong EMP that it will knock out everything unshielded all over North India including New Delhi.
After a nuke goes off, there is nothing left for conventional. Dont you think there will be no radiation and no effect on earth, water, environment, vegetation and living creators. Once you go on this path, it is difficult to return. If dont use our nuke then why the hell develop agnis, K-series, arihant and nuke .... spending capital and bearing all the pressure. Even in this why to buy Rafale itselfldev wrote:
The above is simplistic. What China can do is detonate a high altitude (something like 400 km high), 3MT device on the India-Tibet border, north-west of Nepal which will set off such a strong EMP that it will knock out everything unshielded all over North India including New Delhi. If China does just that without any other subsequent nuclear strike means that all Indian military aircraft (not just the Rafale) must be EMP hardened because in the aftermath of such an EMP, there will still be a conventional war to fight, so all Indian military aircraft must be EMP hardened. So to somehow try and justify the nose bleed prices of the Rafale by saying that it is something special because it is EMP hardened is plain wrong.
All modern fighter aircraft are hardened against EMP. That's why NATO F-16s have been able to switch over to a nuclear strike role without going through extensive modifications. And unlike the Rafale, they are actually qualified for free-fall weapons (B61). Unless the Russians designed the Su-30MKI to be deficient in that respect, the Rafale doesn't bring anything new to the table vis a vis nuclear strike.Austin wrote:We will never know for sure , even Rafale taking over nuke role won't be know or at best it would be vague , we will never know what goes inside Rafale emp hardening or Indian specific eqp
All mililitary equipment are hardened to some extent against EMP effect but Nuclear Bomber the scale of hardening differs.Viv S wrote:All modern fighter aircraft are hardened against EMP. That's why NATO F-16s have been able to switch over to a nuclear strike role without going through extensive modifications. And unlike the Rafale, they are actually qualified for free-fall weapons (B61). Unless the Russians designed the Su-30MKI to be deficient in that respect, the Rafale doesn't bring anything new to the table vis a vis nuclear strike.
Yeah big win for DCNSarthuro wrote:I've just seen that DCNS just won the competition for Australian submarines...40 billions...It really dwarfs even the previous MMRCA deal
All F-16s and F-15Es are capable of nuclear strike (with the requisite wiring). Similarly, all Mirage 2000s are capable of nuclear strike. What makes you think they forgot about EMP hardening when they developed the Su-30?Austin wrote:All mililitary equipment are hardened to some extent against EMP effect but Nuclear Bomber the scale of hardening differs.
Of course not. The F-35 is for sissies who want to get in and get out without waking the neighbours. Like cowardly cat burglars. Real men walk in tall and loud in a Rafale. Like warriors.Ok Rafale does not bring any thing , We need to buy JSF
